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Feliz cumpleaños, Gene! [emoji1]One more thing: We're still assembling the listener roundtable members. If you'd like to participate, please click or tap Contact Us at the bottom right of the forum page, and send us a message. I'll put you in consideration and I'll add you to the personal conversation where we are recruiting guests.
...a Paracast episode and ATP event where one host expressed utter and total disbelief.
Loving this episode. I strenuously agree with Chris' thoughts on hallucinogens and paranormal investigation. I would love to see what experienced psychonaughts could learn at skin Walker ranch
I too agree about hallucinogens and paranormal research; a bad trip in real haunted house could be pretty intense tho!
So, after finding one or two instances of 'reefer-madness-like' psychedelic 'porn' we are to dismiss all the HUNDREDS of tales in which these substances had an overwhelmingly positive effect on the subject? I'm sure Amber Lyon, who used to work for CNN, had a very lucrative job and then decided to leave it all behind, went to the jungle, took the ayahuasca brew and had lis life perspective changed FOREVER, now pushing her to promote the untapped benefits psychedelics cannoffer to Western society, could say a thing or two about all this...Rather than going through it all over again I'll just post the link where one of the debates on this took place: Thoughts on conscience, entities, ufos plus AYAHUASCA
I have not changed my position on the issue. Nor am I likely to. In no instance can I endorse the intentional use of psychedelics alone or in conjunction with occult rituals as tools for the exploration of the UFO phenomenon. The farthest I'm willing to go is to look for correlations between elements of the experiences of those who choose to do it on their own, and elements in the broader field of ufology, including culture, mythology, religion, and paranormal or UFO experiences.
I didn't say we should dismiss anything. My comments are in the context of drugs being used as tools for the investigation of the UFO phenomenon. The last thing the field needs is a quasi-religious UFO drug cult pushing the use of chemicals in order to contact alien beings. At the same time, if there was some group or another who independently decided that is what they want to do, then the responsibility of ufologists to report on it as objectively as possible is reasonable. We should know what is going on in the field on a cultural level and make a genuine effort to understand the pros and cons and what effect it has on our understanding of the phenomenon.So, after finding one or two instances of 'reefer-madness-like' psychedelic 'porn' we are to dismiss all the HUNDREDS of tales in which these substances had an overwhelmingly positive effect on the subject? I'm sure Amber Lyon, who used to work for CNN, had a very lucrative job and then decided to leave it all behind, went to the jungle, took the ayahuasca brew and had lis life perspective changed FOREVER, now pushing her to promote the untapped benefits psychedelics cannoffer to Western society, could say a thing or two about all this...
I'm glad you recognize that there are risks. I would also like to point out, using your example of mountain climbing, that few people really need to go mountain climbing in order to learn about mountains. It's an extreme sport, mainly for those who get some personal thrill or other satisfaction from the experience. BTW I would suggest that it also takes a very clear mind, training, and discipline. I would be far more inclined to believe a UFO story told by clear headed mountain climber than one told by someone high on drugs.(And yes, there's a downside to the current trend of 'psychedelic tourism' in South America. One of them being that there WILL be charlatans and conmen seeking to partake of the large flow of dollars from the 'Gringos' coming to the jungle seeking to meet God or whatever)
To me the psychedelic experience is very much akin to mountain climbing: It is not something that EVERYONE should try. There ARE dangers to face, and if you don't make the necessary precautions and proper training, you WILL suffer the consequences of your recklesness.
I'm not speaking to the issue of legalization. Personally I think the war on drugs has been huge waste of resources that could be better spent on other things, and that if people were given freedom of choice, a lot of the associated crime would dry up and we'd all be better off for it. We're seeing some progress there, but in the meantime I see a serious lack of social responsibility on the part of drug users, who for the sake of their own high, are responsible for supporting a dark violent side of the trade. If people quit buying from those suppliers and put them out of business, that might go a long way to demonstrating that we deserve legalization. But again that's all a separate issue.Furthermore, I bet there have been far more people who died trying to climb mount Everest, than from using psychedelics. Does that mean we should BAN mountain climbing, and put a wall around Everest to prevent those 'foolish climbers' to follow their passion?
Again, the responsible use of drugs is a separate issue. It's its use as a tool during the investigation of the UFO phenomenon that I don't endorse. Take a tab, go sit on a hillside. Enjoy the trip. But don't expect any UFO report that results from it to be taken seriously, and even if it turned out that there really was a UFO during your experience, how would being on a drug trip at the time in any way help you objectively document the sighting, or convince anyone else it happened? To me the answers here are so obvious that it makes me question the rational ability of anyone who supports the idea of using drugs as an investigative tool for the UFO phenomenon."You shouldn't use drugs or they will mess up your brain." Well, TOO LATE! We're immersed in a society which condones AND promotes the use of *certain* types of drugs --the ones which fosters consumerist behaviors: Caffeine, which makes you more 'alert' and productive at work; alcohol, which dulls your alertness so you can unwind after spending the better part of your life, and have a bit of fun before you get back in the production line like the good, little COG you are.
Your lively participation on the issues discussed here is always welcomed .But drugs which can *wake you up* and make you realize you don't HAVE to be just a replaceable cog in service of a system which only seeks to imprison men, either physically or mentally? THOSE WE HAVE TO BAN FOR THEY ARE DANGEROUS!
Enviado desde mi SM-P900 mediante Tapatalk
I didn't say we should dismiss anything. My comments are in the context of being used as tools for the investigation of the UFO phenomenon. The last thing the field needs is a quasi-religious UFO drug cult pushing the use of chemicals in order to contact alien beings. At the same time, if there was some group or another who independently decided that is what they want to do, then the responsibility of ufologists to report on it as objectively as possible is reasonable. We should know what is going on in the field on a cultural level and make a genuine effort to understand the pros and cons and what effect it has on our understanding of the phenomenon.
Again, the responsible use of drugs is a separate issue. It's its use as a tool during the investigation of the UFO phenomenon that I don't endorse. Take a tab, go sit on a hillside. Enjoy the trip. But don't expect any UFO report that results from it to be taken seriously, and even if it turned out that there really was a UFO during your experience, how would being on a drug trip at the time in any way help you objectively document the sighting, or convince anyone else it happened? To me the answers here are so obvious that it makes me question the rational ability of anyone who supports the idea of using drugs as an investigative tool for the UFO phenomenon.
What's meant by "better" and "phenomenon" there? If the phenomenon to be understood is a hallucination, maybe it's better understood on a subjective level by the person hallucinating. On the other hand, if we're talking about an object detected on radar that an Air Force jet is attempting to intercept, then lets hope everyone has their wits about them and aren't hallucinating.Well, what can I say? To me the people who insist this phenomenons is BETTER understood as the manifestations of extraterrestrial interlopers flying (and crashing) around onboard metallic spaceships seem very much like religious fundamentalists [emoji16]
Not exactly. It certainly doesn't hurt to be able to exercise objectivity, but that speaks to an even deeper issue, and that is credibility, which in-turn is based on accuracy. I don't think there is any question that given the task of describing an incident, the person high on drugs will virtually always score lower than a clear headed objective investigator when it comes to accuracy.I think the crux of our disagreement is this idea of upholding 'objectivity.' Pretty much a dictum of our modern, Western, materialist society. And yet something which IMHO completely FALLS APART when it comes to this and other fringe phenomena.
Even more reason to be as clear headed as possible.Even the very act of being in close proximity to one of these objects seems to automatically propel you into an altered state of consciousness! Vallee talked about it in terms of the energy output emanating from ghe UFO, though I myself suspect it might be an inherent aspect of the human psyche, on how it operates when confronted with 'border' phenomena --I'd imagine being placidly sitting in one's bedroom, and then witnessing your TV turning on and your local news anchor appearing and talking to you as if he was able to see and hear you, would be an incredibly trippy experience [emoji41]
Everything we experience is subjective so it's true that 100% objectivity is unattainable, but that doesn't mean there is always 0% objectivity. There are degrees of objectivity and accuracy, and the more clear minded someone is, the more likely the reports of his or her experiences will be. On the other hand, if that person is experiencing hallucinations, the overlay of that experience onto perceptions of objective reality are obviously more likely to cause confusion between the two.So, NO: There are *no* 100%, completely objective UFO witnesses, even if they weren't under the influence of some ingested or consumed psychedelic substance --you might as well try to expunge all that 'NASTY' DMT flowing around their cerebral cortex [emoji14]
I have no idea what the intent of the aliens is, but I suspect that they are more interested in what they can learn than what they can teach us, and that in some cases we're just incidental. I would agree however that regardless of whatever intent the aliens may or may not have, the UFO experience is very powerful on a personal level that goes beyond sheer logical analysis, and that together, those of us who have had such an experience, share a worldview that with respect to the objective reality of our place in the universe, has this extra layer of understanding to it.My own personal speculation is that this phenomenon is trying to teach us lessons which cannot be grasped by mere rationality alone. We're so obsessed with these notions of 'objective facts' and external effects, we may be missing out the point that these are all arbitrary notions; and in the end possibly quite pointless, when it comes to addressing these mysteries.
As ridiculous as you will find this, I have always felt that when one becomes psychoactively aware, the level of "clearheadedness" goes off the scale. I have never had the quality of crystal clear insight than I have had while under the influence of psychoactive substances—especially DMT and psilocybin. This is a concept that your limited reality view will never be able to understand. Let's agree to disagree, OK? My example as stated in the episode features psychoactive awareness in some participants and others who are not under the influence as the control group. The elegance of this untried idea/approach could have tremendous value towards further understanding the phenomenon. If you can't see this, there is no point discussing it further with you.Even more reason to be as clear headed as possible.