The Ultimate Roundtable? Ask Gene and Chris

[Randall]

If I may interject here, RPJ and Randall

Anytime .

Randall I think you are being pretty fair regarding drugs etc except that I believe you are being a little simplistic with thoughts which basically convey anyone seeing a UFO whilst under the influence of drugs is not much of a witness.

I would say that anyone seeing a UFO whilst under the influence of drugs is going to have more problems being taken seriously than someone who isn't. Even a reputation for doing drugs is harmful to one's credibility. Therefore endorsing drug use as a tool for investigation within the field of ufology can have serious consequences for the credibility of the field on the whole. It would therefore be entirely irresponsible for me to make such an endorsement.

Whilst no doubt a large number of people would agree with you, and to a degree I do but I think what Chris was suggesting was something more scientific, something with the controls and observation and recording that is part of scientific endeavour.

Suggesting that ufologists should intentionally use healthy people ( voluntarily or otherwise ) as lab rats in their own "scientific" psychedelic drug experiments is IMO wholly irresponsible and I simply cannot get behind it in any way shape or form.

So what I am suggesting at least is putting to one side simple observations of UFOs, what might be worth studying is perhaps ideas such as possibly exploring whether an aspect of the UFO phenomenon could be 'called upon' by someone talking a psychedic drug. We know of many reports of people on DMT an suchlike, having some kind of interaction with classic alien archetypes, as if taking the drug opens some kind of communication pathway to paranormal entities of some kind.

If a ufologist wants to report on such an incident in an objective fashion, that is fine with me. That is an entirely different context.

Of course such a course probably doesn't make much sense if the answer to UFOs is that they are solely piloted nuts n bolts crafts from other planets etc. Whilst I know you are mostly (totally?) and ETH man, you of course are aware of those who believe UFOs might have an even stranger source than the ETH. To many, it is hard to reconcile a large part of Ufology that seems to fit with the ETH, and the other aspects that are downright bizarre and often parallel other distinct paranormal phenomena.

I think that with UFOs ( alien craft ) the ETH makes the most sense, but as I always say, alien doesn't necessitate ET.

So basically I am saying that for those who think there may be a more high-strange origin to the mystery of UFOs, it doesn't seem at all strange or nonsensical to explore different states of mind, because many already think human consciousness has a huge part to play in the UFO phenomenon. Many have reported sudden urges that literally commanded that they go outside and look at the sky, and they have then had amazing UFO sightings.

Either way, if the person is clear minded beforehand rather than hallucinating, the info from that experience will be taken more seriously. Just think about it. The person hallucinating may be reporting nothing but a hallucination.

If such reports have any validity at all, then to me at least, this suggests non-physical means are affecting the conscious mind and doing so at the same time or just before a UFO can be sighted. Considering how low the chances are of anyone just deciding to go outside and look up to then see a UFO, it seems at least worth investigating when people report that they have received some telepathic indication of an imminent sighting.

Same response as above, except I would add that invisible physical stimuli can result in conscious experiences, so I reject the notion of a "non-physical means". But then philosophically speaking, I'm basically a certain brand of physicalist, so I will always reject the notion of supernatural explanations.

As much as I despise Steven Greer and his pay-per-view UFO gatherings, I see little to be lost in at least trying to monitor some willing subjects who are up for taking psychedelic drugs and seeing if they can 'call in' a UFO or two. In terms of an experiment, the cost and materials is so low, there isn't much to lose in trying. Perhaps Chris could expand on his ideas for experimentation with drugs and high strange events.

Passive monitoring and active participation are two entirely different concepts. I believe people should have the freedom to choose what kind of experiences they want to have to a far greater degree than societal constraints typically allow. But that doesn't change my core position on the issue at hand.

 

[Randall]

'Credibility' is another fetish obsession of the modern UFOlogy movement. Quite ironic and paradoxical IMO, because in our culture credibility has to do with status and the power obtained by it. That's why the testimony of a homeless person is deemed 'less credible' than the testimony of a politician or a police officer --even if the latter secretly enjoy snorting cocaine on the weekend...

But the paradox relies in the fact that the subject studied by UFOlogy --UFOs-- is so AGAINST the fabric of the status quo, it will NEVER attain enough credibility in the eyes of those on top of our societal pyramid.

UFOs will only attain credibility once our societal structure goes through a paradigm shift.

Maybe

Enviado desde mi SM-P900 mediante Tapatalk

A couple of strawman arguments in there. But the related issues could be an interesting as a separate discussion. Would you care to elaborate on the kind of paradigm shift you're thinking of?

 

[Christopher O'Brien]

Suggesting that ufologists should intentionally use healthy people ( voluntarily or otherwise ) as lab rats in their own "scientific" psychedelic drug experiments is IMO wholly irresponsible and I simply cannot get behind it in any way shape or form.

Round-and-round-and-round you go. You will never understand the elegance of this idea. So, then why discuss it? You've made your point, so move along, there is nothing else for you to contribute concerning this subject Randall.

 

[red_pill_junkie]

A couple of strawman arguments in there. But the related issues could be an interesting as a separate discussion. Would you care to elaborate on the kind of paradigm shift you're thinking of?

Maybe later. It's Sept 15th, and tonight we Mexicans celebrate our (so-called) independence. So if you guys don't mind, there's a bottle of tequila with my name on it [emoji41]


PS: VIVA MEXICO!!!

Enviado desde mi SM-P900 mediante Tapatalk


PPS: To be Continued...

PPPS: SALUUUUUD! *Hic*

 

[Randall]

Randall, there is no point in having this conversation with you.

That depends on the point you're trying to make. I'm listening .

As ridiculous as you will find this, I have always felt that when one becomes psychoactively aware, the level of "clearheadedness" goes off the scale. I have never had the quality of crystal clear insight than I have had while under the influence of psychoactive substances—especially DMT and psilocybin.

On that feeling of "clearheadedness". That experience is sometimes referred to as a "moment of clarity". The problem with it is that although one can have that sensation, it doesn't necessarily correspond to objective reality. Straight people can have it too. So do people suffering from brain damage. For example during progression through the stages of Alzheimer’s disease a person can seem to come out of it and say something they that seems profound and convincing when in fact it's nothing of the sort. That doesn't mean that the moment of clarity induced by drugs is necessarily illusory. It's probably possible to have a flash of genius while under the influence of drugs. But it isn't necessary.

This is a concept that your limited reality view will never be able to understand. Let's agree to disagree, OK?

Your view of "limited" seems limited. On a subjective level, the experiences of people not under the influence of drugs can be as valuable and profound as the experiences of people who are. The difference is that experiences from people not hallucinating tend to correspond better to objective reality. Therefore one can easily claim that it is the impaired mind that has the "limited" view of reality. In some cases hallucinating subjects have no idea where they are. I'm sure you can find the evidence for that if you have any doubts.

My example as stated in the episode features psychoactive awareness in some participants and others who are not under the influence as the control group. The elegance of this untried idea/approach could have tremendous value towards further understanding the phenomenon. If you can't see this, there is no point discussing it further with you.

Like I said above, suggesting that ufologists should intentionally use healthy people ( voluntarily or otherwise ) as lab rats in their own "scientific" psychedelic drug experiments is IMO wholly irresponsible and I simply cannot get behind it in any way shape or form. So for me that's not an "agree to disagree" type situation. Of course that still doesn't change my view that as free individuals, we should also have more freedom of choice regarding what experiences we want to have, and that if adults of their own volition decide to participate in such an experiment, then there would be nothing wrong with reporting on it as objectively as possible.

Lastly I want to be clear here that in principle, I think that the field needs people who have differing opinions because it is in the exploration of those differences that meaning can come from both. You and I have a lot in common even if we also are diametrically opposed on this and the ETH. So from my perspective I think we could actually be good friends not just despite our differences, but also because of our differences. I don't know if that will ever happen, but that is the sentiment in which this is delivered. I hope you understand.

 

[Randall]

Maybe later. It's Sept 15th, and tonight we Mexicans celebrate our (so-called) independence. So if you guys don't mind, there's a bottle of tequila with my name on it [emoji41]
PS: VIVA MEXICO!!!
PPS: To be Continued...
PPPS: SALUUUUUD! *Hic*

Have fun, but go easy on it RPJ. You'll be glad you did .

 

[red_pill_junkie]

Have fun, but go easy on it RPJ. You'll thank me in the morning .

Enviado desde mi SM-P900 mediante Tapatalk

 

[Burnt State]

Randall, there is no point in having this conversation with you. As ridiculous as you will find this, I have always felt that when one becomes psychoactively aware, the level of "clearheadedness" goes off the scale. I have never had the quality of crystal clear insight than I have had while under the influence of psychoactive substances—especially DMT and psilocybin. This is a concept that your limited reality view will never be able to understand. Let's agree to disagree, OK? My example as stated in the episode features psychoactive awareness in some participants and others who are not under the influence as the control group. The elegance of this untried idea/approach could have tremendous value towards further understanding the phenomenon. If you can't see this, there is no point discussing it further with you.

I would compare that level of awareness, and those who share in such descriptions, to the family of UFO experiencers that Randall brought up on the show. These are unique cohorts that have something 'impossible' in common - a sharing of alternate realities. Both ways of thinking can have dangers ascribed to them, but then I also happen to think the Tea Party and Terrorism are even more dangerous ways of thinking about reality. It really is about what cup of tea you like to drink. If willing people want to experiment so be it. People experiment with themselves every day with what they eat, breathe, drink, listen to, touch and feel. The world is not safe. But some will often agree to participate in bad, mad, sane ventures of varying proportions. It really can not be helped.

 

[Christopher O'Brien]

Some people are able to enjoy mushroom tea on levels that Twining or Bigelow could never have envisioned for their most caffenated offerings .

 

[Burnt State]

And in some ways that's a loss to society. At the very least having mushroom tea available for people in palliative care should be considered as a very sane and compassionate thing to do.

 

[Randall]

I would compare that level of awareness, and those who share in such descriptions, to the family of UFO experiencers that Randall brought up on the show. These are unique cohorts that have something 'impossible' in common - a sharing of alternate realities. Both ways of thinking can have dangers ascribed to them, but then I also happen to think the Tea Party and Terrorism are even more dangerous ways of thinking about reality. It really is about what cup of tea you like to drink. If willing people want to experiment so be it. People experiment with themselves every day with what they eat, breathe, drink, listen to, touch and feel. The world is not safe. But some will often agree to participate in bad, mad, sane ventures of varying proportions. It really can not be helped.

Your comparison makes perfect sense in the context of ones subjective worldview. In other words, I have no doubt that some people who have partaken in altered states of consciousness have come away from it profoundly changed, sometimes for the better, sometimes not so much, but either way, I'm fully prepared to accept that only someone else who has had a similar experience will be able to appreciate the impact of the psychedelic experience on one's worldview. However, at the same time, the difference between the nature of hallucinations and material objects cannot be equated because we are dealing with two distinctly different types of reality. We aren't trying to determine the origin and nature of hallucinations. We already know where they come from. It's the objectively real physical/material objects, that are the core of the subject matter.

 

[red_pill_junkie]

So where do hallucinations come from?

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[Burnt State]

I would also question the materiality of UFO's. The effects of the experience are similar. The nature of the altered states are parallel. Are some UFO experiences also hallucinations? (read posts by @Zebra or the Logos ) What about people who hallucinate seeing the UFO or its occupants while feeling the effects of entheogens? These experiences are involved with each other; how deeply? to what extent? what is their nature and origin? All these are worth exploring.

I personally am not prepared to categorize all of the UFO phenomenon as a physically materialistic event. Yes, the hallucinogenic experience is a profoundly internal experience, but to what extent can it open up aspects of a complicated phenomenon is still to be determined. Many ways must be tried, and so much of these parallels and shared features do seem to push us in that direction. Perhaps these altered experiences need alternate experiences to better grasp its ontology? The map has been drawn for us, and as we heard on the show in answer to your question, the tricksterish aspects of the phenomenon are best described as HIGH STRANGE.

 

[Goggs Mackay]

@ufology - I think a major point in the drugs+UFO research argument, a point you are missing, is simply that regardless of whether such research could ever be called objective, even scientific, the one absolutely definite -and to me totally worthwhile- aspect to the idea, is that at the very least it provides a new perspective(s) and simply is something novel.

Considering how much we all moan about the field repeating itself ad nauseum, repeating the same tired cases and methods, I would have thought that any new attempt to create something unique in terms of investigating UFOs just has to be worthwhile. I do not see what the field has to lose by trying such interesting mixes- it's not like the field is perceived as having credibility by the mainstream anyway!

Can I get an amen?

 

[Sand]

I have always felt that when one becomes psychoactively aware, the level of "clearheadedness" goes off the scale. I have never had the quality of crystal clear insight than I have had while under the influence of psychoactive substances—especially DMT and psilocybin.

Seemingly unique among the psychedelics are the entities that people see while under DMT.

Chris, when you did DMT did you see any of the DMT “beings”? If you did, how would you describe them?

 

[Goggs Mackay]

Seemingly unique among the psychedelics are the entities that people see while under DMT.

Chris, when you did DMT did you see any of the DMT “beings”? If you did, how would you describe them?

I haven't done enough DMT to 'break through ' as its known, to possibly face any such beings but 2 other drug experiences I believe did present what I took to be 'real' entities.

Many, many years apart, the 1st was on psylocibin (liberty cap magic mushrooms ) and I think some kind of plant/fungus type entity was in my face brandishing a part of its character that was very unpleasant and negative, seeming to claim serious violence it had caused some humans to do. Weird, I know.

Another was a really emotionally moving experience in which I met a lone entity, like the last of it's race left, or at least the last one left in this place -it was lonely and sad and it didn't possess much higher intelligence compared to humans -perhaps the level of a dolphin etc. Anyway it did not have eyes or ears but experienced the world through changes in atmospheric pressure. Sort of octopus like but not aquatic, it had numerous trunk -type appendages with which it could make contact with other beings and objects to sense a pressure input of sorts. The only way this being could know someone like me was near was if I allowed part of myself to be contained in a special purpose built apparatus which was also connected to a few of the beings appendages.
When I 'plugged' myself in, I could immediately see the being react and I just knew it was made instantly happier, like a baby handed to its mother. The being started to breathe slower and head toward it's equivalent of sleep, like a child now content that the bedroom door is ajar and the hall light is on. It now felt safe and protected and in company. I had the most overwhelming sense of peace and sort of love, mixed with sadness for this unique creature destined to be lonely and always awaiting another visitor just so it could be aware of another being besides it to comfort it for a while.

Nobody needs to tell me that this is just something a human mind can conjure up on drugs but in all the times I've taken drugs, only twice did I ever feel I'd met some kind of 'alien' entities and it's so hard to convey just how genuine and real those experiences were. I feel privileged especially for the second one, truly that I did something few or no others ever have.

Even if my experiences were imagined, they certainly opened my mind to the real possibility such things could happen.

 

[Christopher O'Brien]

Chris, when you did DMT did you see any of the DMT “beings”? If you did, how would you describe them?

Yes, the first time. They were small, rounded figures and they had what appeared to be pointed heads. They were all identical except for some roiling color variations. They arrived in a mass group, surrounded/enveloped me and then I experienced what I can only describe as being plugged in and something from my psyche seemed to uploaded into a group mind (?) or some kind of repository, this lasted maybe 10 or so seconds. This was followed instantly by the feeling of having a data dump downloaded into my psyche. This seemed to last forever but was probably only a minute or so. I don't know what was uploaded or downloaded, but I was left w/ a profound feeling of communication on an extremely deep level. This occurred before I had read any McKenna descriptions of "machine elves" and my experience was somewhat similar to his descriptions but with a different mode of interaction. I didn't experience what McKenna described as visual language manifesting from the elves, etc

 

[Goggs Mackay]

Yes, the first time. They were small, rounded figures and they had what appeared to be pointed heads. They were all identical except for some roiling color variations. They arrived in a mass group, surrounded/enveloped me and then I experienced what I can only describe as being plugged in and something from my psyche seemed to uploaded into a group mind (?) or some kind of repository, this lasted maybe 10 or so seconds. This was followed instantly by the feeling of having a data dump downloaded into my psyche. This seemed to last forever but was probably only a minute or so. I don't know what was uploaded or downloaded, but I was left w/ a profound feeling of communication on an extremely deep level. This occurred before I had read any McKenna descriptions of "machine elves" and my experience was somewhat similar to his descriptions but with a different mode of interaction. I didn't experience what McKenna described as visual language manifesting from the elves, etc

How weird (or not) Chris. Before I saw that you had posted this, I had posted from my Android phone about the 2 times I felt I'd encountered a non-human intelligence through drugs. My two experiences were different from the one you describe but what is strange is that in my second one, I describe how I felt I was in communication with a deaf/blind/mute entity that could only experience another being in proximity if that being (me) allowed myself to be 'plugged in' to an apparatus that would convey pressure variations to the entity - the only way it could 'sense'.

Very very different but perhaps in an important and fundamental way, very similar. The experience of somehow 'plugging in' to convey information both ways. I mean to me it is very noteworthy that we didn't just speak aloud, or experience telepathy in the way people claiming ET contact often do. In our drug experiences, we both knew that there was a far more physically intimate exchange going on.

 

[Burnt State]

Getting plugged into entheogens...the experience is profound and expansive. The narrative experiences that take place there are as unforgettable as seeing a UFO. I won't bother describing my experience getting cut off from language, as I was looking for some kind of pressure sensitive mechanism to relieve me and reconnect me at the time. What's most important is the ability for transformative thinking to take place. Nods to @Rizla and @Zebra or the Logos

People often talk about expanding consciousness, about how fast you can engage in lateral thinking processes, to make connections not understood previously and to then alter directions and life trajectories because the brain rinse cleared out all those egotistical cobwebs and let you see things as they are and how they got that way. That was my takeaway and thank goodness for it or my life would have been sadly different.

Treating psychotics and palliative care subjects with hallucinogens speaks to how some of life's bigger puzzles can be solved under proper direction. Set & setting people! These are associative processes and just like the profound UFO encounter, new associations will form. A good thing to ask UFO witnesses after intense events have been processed would be: did you learn anything about yourself from this experience? Unfortunately most witnesses are disbelieved and so their experience is not allowed to be integrated into their life the way a positive set and setting can be a big or a little teacher.

A few side notes:

1. In studies regarding IQ and drug use, the higher the IQ the increased likelihood of drug use. This may because of novelty, because of the need to know more, because of access...theories abound but it's an interesting discussion - IQ and Drug Use | The Fix
2. @red_pill_junkie asked where do hallucinations come from? A good question as many paranormal & UFO experiences often have a high strange hallucinatory quality that begs the question of how internal or external is it, as spoken about on ATP Sept. 13. Is there perhaps a unique external agent that is able to cause the same cascading neuronal effect in the brain that helps to produce or mediate that High Strange experience like when u r with Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds? - How Hallucinogens Play Their Mind-Bending Games
3. I persistently argue against drug experimentation in my teaching practice as these should be informed individual choices. But around the dinner table we speak openly and honestly about all substances and try to be teachers without advising bio-experimntaion. I have not engaged in strong hallucinogens in decades as increasingly the answers I need are already before me and I respond to them as responsibly as possible. Still, I have some profound memories around personal formation and other age old rites of passage.

 

[Mr. Fibuli]

While on mushrooms psilopsybin (whatever) I percieved an intelligence outside of my own. The colors outside of the normal spectrum that manu people report in a psychedelic experiencespoke to me telepathically saying that they (the colors which manifested visually as these little beings that just radiated happiness) were the energy that we call atomic particles. They were vibrating wildly and it seemed I was awash in their presence (and also composed of them). The best comparison that I can come up to describe the feeling of them is that feeling you get when the corners of your eyes hurt from too much squinching when you laugh really hard
Trippy huh? I'm agnostic as to whether it was my mind being twisted all up or whether it was something paranormal-ish.