Thoughts on conscience, entities, ufos plus AYAHUASCA

[Randall]

Dear Ufology, I did not set a number. As long as the Ayahuasca experience does not affect my rational thinking I will give it a try.

Of course the problem with that is that once it's affected your rational thinking it's already too late, which is why if you're going to become a user regardless of what anyone else says, an arbitrary number will at least force you to deal with the prospect of quitting, and on terms you agreed to before you lost your objectivity.

Then you can see for yourself if there's any psychological or physical desire to continue the practise, and after you distance yourself from it for a few months, you'll know from firsthand experience just how hard or easy it was to quit and whether or not it was a truly worthwhile journey. After all, isn't the whole idea to come away from the journey enriched, and not to permanently descend into drug induced la la land?

I'm sure your more reserved friends would feel better about it too. In fact why not make a pact? Create an escape hatch. Put it in writing to let them help you if you find that you just can't say no when the times comes. That shouldn't be too hard to do unless you're already affected to the point where you're rationalizing why you shouldn't do it. Are you? What reason would that be? Maybe it's the false belief that the next big buzz is going to open some magical door to another universe that will give you superpowers or something. I don't know. But whatever the reason is, you need to be able to say "No, I made a deal with myself that this is all I'm going to do at this time." Then see how hard it is to keep that deal with yourself.

My life has shown me that there is more than our physical realm.

I agree, but I don't need to be high to know that or explore the various theoretical possibilities.

However to this day I am not sure how much of what I have experienced is between my ears and how much is not. I have had an experience with a physical outcome which I have shared with Tyger on another thread. Here it is ...

Thanks for sharing. It reminds me of a story with some parallels from my own childhood. My younger brother and I had gone with our parents to visit with friends of the family and he had just got a toy Batmobile for his birthday. On the way home he realized he had forgotten it and was getting upset so I told him that I would magically transport it home and into our little round blow-up swimming pool, and that by the time we got home it would be there waiting for him. That made him happy but it put me in a bit of a fix because then I had to somehow make it happen, and sure enough when we got home the first thing he did was check the pool and there it was!

What he didn't know is that I had noticed he had forgotten his toy car and carefully rolled it up in a towel to protect it and take it home for him. I was often picking up after him, and I didn't think he would notice his missing car half way home and start to get upset, and I didn't want him to think I had taken it away or was trying to hide it from him, so off the top of my head I improvised this ill conceived plan to "materialize" his toy in the pool. I took a shortcut to the pool when we got home and carefully placed his toy where he would immediately find it, and then went inside before he saw me there. He was so happy and amazed when he found it there. He believed in my magical powers for years and finally one day in his 20s asked me how it I did it because he still believed it was magic.

I confessed, and it was tough to burst that bubble because it was a truly precious memory for us both. But it goes to show how powerful belief in magic can be. More than likely the return of your toy dino tail had to do with something similar. Perhaps someone who cared for you very much searched through lord knows how many more eggs to find a replacement tail just to make you day a little happier, to see the joy in your eyes at discovering it and the wonder in your belief in magic. These kinds of things do happen. What would they think if they knew that their innocent little deception was leading you into a life of drug dens?

What can I say? Life is really more exciting than our 3D world. As I have stated before I am very much inclined to believe in tricksters, both good and bad. I actually think most abductees and contactees are tricksters bait. Some are probably not, but we have no way to differentiate, therefore I dismiss their messianic messages. And if I encounter an ultradimensional being on Ayahuasca I will treat it as a trickster. Furthermore, I would never ever believe what they say. But I will post it anyway, with a warning: message received while high on DMT.

I'm not the best equipped person here to provide any advice on how to handle your trip, especially if it involves tricksters. That's more @Christopher O'Brien's realm of expertise.

But even with all my believer skepticism about the other realm I always give others the benefit of doubt. They could be saying the truth.

If they relay blueprints on how to build a working antigravity drive, and it actually works, then I'll start taking them seriously. Don't forget to ask them if you should run into any!

 

[Christopher O'Brien]

Let's ask Psychology Today:
DMT: Gateway to Reality, Fantasy or What?
by Scott A. McGreal, MSc.

In previous posts (here and here) I discussed the psychedelic drug DMT, and the remarkable fact that many users of this substance report encounters with non-human entities that often seem compellingly real. Related to this, some extraordinary claims have been made about the DMT experience, such as that users visit “free-standing realities” that seem to have some sort of durable existence, although the validity of such claims is open to question. Further, more detailed research is needed to help understand the nature of the DMT experience in order to put some of these claims to the test. In particular, I would be interested to know whether ‘entity’ experiences are related to the psychological features of users... REST OF ARTICLE HERE

 

[Randall]

Let's ask Psychology Today:
DMT: Gateway to Reality, Fantasy or What?
by Scott A. McGreal, MSc.

In previous posts (here and here) I discussed the psychedelic drug DMT, and the remarkable fact that many users of this substance report encounters with non-human entities that often seem compellingly real. Related to this, some extraordinary claims have been made about the DMT experience, such as that users visit “free-standing realities” that seem to have some sort of durable existence, although the validity of such claims is open to question. Further, more detailed research is needed to help understand the nature of the DMT experience in order to put some of these claims to the test. In particular, I would be interested to know whether ‘entity’ experiences are related to the psychological features of users... REST OF ARTICLE HERE

Thank you very much for posting those links Chris. Although I shudder at the thought of UFO drug cults popping up; from a completely objective point of view, studying this phenomenon is just as legitimate as studying Heaven's Gate or Eduard Meier or any number of other elements associated with ufology fringe culture ( a la Messengers of Deception ). In fact it would be irresponsible to completely ignore it, and I'm glad that you and @Ufocurious seem to understand and appreciate the need for someone objective, someone outside the ketchup bottle to be engaged in the discussion and analysis ( or is that presuming too much ) ?

 

[Christopher O'Brien]

Thank you very much for posting those links Chris. Although I shudder at the thought of UFO drug cults popping up; from a completely objective point of view, studying this phenomenon is just as legitimate as studying Heaven's Gate or Eduard Meier or any number of other elements associated with ufology fringe culture ( a la Messengers of Deception ). In fact it would be irresponsible to completely ignore it, and I'm glad that you and @Ufocurious seem to understand and appreciate the need for someone objective, someone outside the ketchup bottle to be engaged in the discussion and analysis ( or is that presuming too much ) ?

Randall, it's a brave new world out there and we are just scratching the surface. After 60 years of spinning ufological wheels, new thinking, new ideas and new approaches are needed. I'm saddened that you instantly equate the exploration of inner space w/ "ufo drug cults," and buy into knee-jerk societal thinking that psychedelics CANNOT POSSIBLY be a potential tool of exploration and that such behavior is bound to end up badly, cults/suicides, etc.

Like many things in life, 'many are called, few are chosen.' I am grateful that folks younger than me are motivated to scout out the inner terrain and report back to the rest of us. Who knows what could be lurking under the surface of "normal" perception awaiting the chance for union/communication/[FILL IN THE BLANK]. THANK YOU ufocurious!
I'm taking notes, and you all should be too.

 

[Randall]

I'm taking notes, and you should be too.

You have been invited to participate in a private discussion with @Ufocurious and I where I would be happy to take notes and alleviate the misconceptions you appear to have regarding my position and intent.

 

[Ufocurious]

Chris
Thanks for the link. I read the article. The author actually gives a good protocol I may follow: ask the entity a question I do not know the answer.

 

[Ufocurious]

Ufology
I forget you guys are up north. Magical thinking does not permeate everyday life like here.
In Brazil we have psychiatrists that separate patients in 2 categories: mental illness and spiritual unbalance. The latter can be cured. And I prefer this kind of society.
We do have our share of skeptics and debunkers, but somehow their explanations are worse than just accepting other realms. And in my case it applies. If you read carefully what I wrote, I was alone in the house with 2 little kids. They were asleep. The house was locked. The only alternative to the phenomenon was me going on an altered state, finding the toy piece, putting it on the table inside a drop of water, and forgetting it all. OH BOY. That is worse than accepting help from the other side. But if you want to think I am nuts, it is your choice. I know what happened. That satisfies me.
I brought up my children telling them that there is a scale between an all materialist world and the mysteries beyond the veil, and that I was not sure what is true. The outcome is an atheist son and a semi-believer daughter. Guess who is happier? The daughter. Therefore, if believing in other realm brings one a nicer life, let's go on that path. Being an atheist and materialist has its share of arrogance because they are instantly calling people with weird experiences either liars or nuts. That is not the planet I want to live at. I actually tell my son being a fundamentalist atheist as he is puts him in the same level as any other type of fundamentalist. OUCH. I a mean mommy. But I want free thinkers as offsprings.

back to Ayahuasca: it is non-addictive.
M., the padrinho at the shamanic center has been doing it for 9 years. My friend told me to do Ayahuasca with him because he is a nice and balanced person, better than the rug pulling envious rats that make up part of our co-workers population. Again, Ayahuasca makes people better. WHY?

 

[Randall]

... I'm saddened that you instantly equate the exploration of inner space w/ "ufo drug cults," and buy into knee-jerk societal thinking that psychedelics CANNOT POSSIBLY be a potential tool of exploration and that such behavior is bound to end up badly, cults/suicides, etc.

I didn't "instantly equate the exploration of inner space w/ "ufo drug cults". My first concern was for the safety and well being of one of our forum participants. The concern over the use of drugs within ufology came later when I realized that there was a connection between drugs and people who have had drug induced contactee like experiences. Surely you must appreciate that for this to be taken seriously in ufology, an objective view is necessary. If I can make the connection between UFO cults and shamanistic UFO contactee experiences, so can anyone who would use that to discredit the field. Therefore a dispassionate and objective, if not skeptical view is essential in the analysis of these types of experiences.

 

[Randall]

Ufology
I forget you guys are up north. Magical thinking does not permeate everyday life like here.
In Brazil we have psychiatrists that separate patients in 2 categories: mental illness and spiritual unbalance. The latter can be cured. And I prefer this kind of society.

Whenever I see the word "spiritual" it pings my skeptometer. From my personal study of the word, it seems more like a convenience term used by mystics. In practical terms I can't distinguish from the word "personality". For example you could say, "Carla has a kind personality." Or we can say, "Carla is a kind spirit." Or we can say, "We have psychiatrists that separate patients in 2 categories: mental illness and personality unbalance." Once the person's personality is back in "balance", the disorder is cured. If I'm wrong, then please tell me how I would tell the difference? Is not the so-called "spiritual unbalance" manifested in the patient's personality ( feelings of depression, anxiety, joy, and other emotions and thoughts and how we express them )? It seems to me that when we throw out the "magical" part of it we can demystify the problems and learn to handle them ourselves rather than depending on witch doctors and magic.

We do have our share of skeptics and debunkers, but somehow their explanations are worse than just accepting other realms. And in my case it applies. If you read carefully what I wrote, I was alone in the house with 2 little kids. They were asleep. The house was locked. The only alternative to the phenomenon was me going on an altered state, finding the toy piece, putting it on the table inside a drop of water, and forgetting it all. OH BOY. That is worse than accepting help from the other side. But if you want to think I am nuts, it is your choice. I know what happened. That satisfies me.

I don't think your nuts ( not yet anyway ). I think many of us have experienced what is sometimes called spontaneous dematerialization, and spontaneous materialization , the apparent sudden and unexplained loss or detection of things, usually small things of little consequence, but enough to make you wonder.

I brought up my children telling them that there is a scale between an all materialist world and the mysteries beyond the veil, and that I was not sure what is true. The outcome is an atheist son and a semi-believer daughter. Guess who is happier? The daughter.

Happiness and truth aren't always found together. Sometimes the truth can hurt. Sometimes it's easier to believe in the myth. I'm a truth seeker more than a pleasure seeker. If this is also true of your son, then he should be commended for his commitment to his path, whether it makes him happy or not.

back to Ayahuasca: it is non-addictive. M., the padrinho at the shamanic center has been doing it for 9 years. My friend told me to do Ayahuasca with him because he is a nice and balanced person, better than the rug pulling envious rats that make up part of our co-workers population. Again, Ayahuasca makes people better. WHY?

Perhaps it's physically non addictive, but every study I've looked at recently says that there are no conclusive results on that, and physical addiction is different from the addiction created by the habit and the social structures that support it. Plus it's still a wise idea for no other reason than your own piece of mind to experience that all for yourself, and the only way to do it is to give yourself a quota and see how difficult it is for you to leave the substance and it's lifestyle behind. If you can't accept that truth, then you're already in the early stages of denial.

 

[Constance]

I noted this sentence in the article Chris quoted from above: "Research suggests that sense of unseen presence experiences are related to unusual activity in the temporal lobe of the brain (Persinger & Valliant, 1985)." What does that sentence mean? Anyone? In the meantime, I'll try to find the Persinger source and find out what he meant.

 

[Ufocurious]

Is he the crazy canuck with the helmet experiment? If its him, I trust his research as much as channeled info.
Constance
I would love your thoughts in this thread!
I am going to my adult ballet class now.
have a nice day!

 

[manxman]

Constance.

Mysterious Minds: The Neurobiology of Psychics, Mediums, and Other ... - Google Books

 

[Ufocurious]

It is him. He is from Jacksonville, FL, but did his research in Canada.
I always wanted to wear his helmet.
A long time ago I saw a documentary on his research and read everything I could about him. I don't remember much. The stuff I read was far from what I experienced in my possible OBEs.

 

[boomerang]

There is a convergence of topics in this thread worth pondering yet again.

Is someone whose core values have been changed by virtue of experience with entheogens "enlightened", or (as traditional western values would suggest) cognitively "damaged"? I think we see both. I would be cautious in writing off the psychonaut as merely deluded.

We could ask the very same question regarding "high credibility" witnesses in close encounter cases involving UFOs. The latter are certainly in little or no more possession of physical proof that they have been anywhere but inside their heads. Their lives and their world views may be permanently altered. So why not write them off as mere victims of tricks played on them by their own psychogenic physiology ? I anticipate objections based on multiple witness cases and trace evidence. Such cases at first seem more amenable to Cartesian analysis. But only over the short term. The history of the UFO phenomenon has shown multiple witness cases as evidence in favor of a nuts-and-bolts explanation to be just one more illusion. Trace evidence is physically real, the UFO interacts with our physical reality. But hard evidence ALWAYS goes "poof" over time and we are again left only with the puzzle human consciousness.

Would I take more seriously the testimony of someone not knowingly influenced by externally ingested psychoactive substances more seriously than that from someone (single or plural) whose is "straight'? Most likely. But all testimony is still no more than religious in nature after all these decades of study and discussion There is no science here. There can be no "ology" where there is no stable paradigm to study.

What about someone whom we know has had the hallucinogenic experience, reports paranormal things or encounters with strange entities from the sky long after the "tripping" is done, and is, by conventional psychiatric standards available to us, a sane and reliable person? Preference in witnesses may now be murkier.

At the end of the day, after 60 years of studying the UFO phenomenon by traditional methods of rational cause and effect, all roads taken upon following witness testimony lead to a place where rationality breaks down and we are left to scratch our heads over the meaning of a term we have spent so much time and effort here defining: consciousness. If the UFO us attempting to tell us anything, this may be it.

Of course, one is free to wait up for the gates of some hypothetical Area 51 to swing open to disgorge evidence salvaging the nuts-and-bolts point of view. But I would not bet on it.

 

[Tyger]

As often happens, a thread intended to discuss a particular topic - that has as it's context certain parameters - is being threatened with overwhelm because the idea of anything' spiritual' is offensive to a certain poster. I have been down this discussion path so often with the following poster that what he is saying below could be a copy-and-paste from one of our long ago thread conversations - and probably is.

Whenever I see the word "spiritual" it pings my skeptometer. From my personal study of the word, it seems more like a convenience term used by mystics. In practical terms I can't distinguish from the word "personality". For example you could say, "Carla has a kind personality." Or we can say, "Carla is a kind spirit." Or we can say, "We have psychiatrists that separate patients in 2 categories: mental illness and personality unbalance." Once the person's personality is back in "balance", the disorder is cured. If I'm wrong, then please tell me how I would tell the difference? Is not the so-called "spiritual unbalance" manifested in the patient's personality ( feelings of depression, anxiety, joy, and other emotions and thoughts and how we express them )? It seems to me that when we throw out the "magical" part of it we can demystify the problems and learn to handle them ourselves rather than depending on witch doctors and magic.

The mash-up of ideas and words in the above is confounding!

Why must any thread - with a newbie poster - that dares mention the word 'spiritual' - suddenly have to devolve into this very exact conversation challenging the concept of 'spiritual' with some bogus turn on 'critical thinking' and inevitably leading to the real intent: proselytizing about a mechanistic, computer generated matrix world view.

It is tiresome.

 

[Psychedelic_Alchemist]

Of course the problem with that is that once it's affected your rational thinking it's already too late, which is why if you're going to become a user regardless of what anyone else says, an arbitrary number will at least force you to deal with the prospect of quitting, and on terms you agreed to before you lost your objectivity.

Then you can see for yourself if there's any psychological or physical desire to continue the practise, and after you distance yourself from it for a few months, you'll know from firsthand experience just how hard or easy it was to quit and whether or not it was a truly worthwhile journey. After all, isn't the whole idea to come away from the journey enriched, and not to permanently descend into drug induced la la land?

I'm sure your more reserved friends would feel better about it too. In fact why not make a pact? Create an escape hatch. Put it in writing to let them help you if you find that you just can't say no when the times comes. That shouldn't be too hard to do unless you're already affected to the point where you're rationalizing why you shouldn't do it. Are you? What reason would that be? Maybe it's the false belief that the next big buzz is going to open some magical door to another universe that will give you superpowers or something. I don't know. But whatever the reason is, you need to be able to say "No, I made a deal with myself that this is all I'm going to do at this time." Then see how hard it is to keep that deal with yourself.

I agree, but I don't need to be high to know that or explore the various theoretical possibilities.

Thanks for sharing. It reminds me of a story with some parallels from my own childhood. My younger brother and I had gone with our parents to visit with friends of the family and he had just got a toy Batmobile for his birthday. On the way home he realized he had forgotten it and was getting upset so I told him that I would magically transport it home and into our little round blow-up swimming pool, and that by the time we got home it would be there waiting for him. That made him happy but it put me in a bit of a fix because then I had to somehow make it happen, and sure enough when we got home the first thing he did was check the pool and there it was!

What he didn't know is that I had noticed he had forgotten his toy car and carefully rolled it up in a towel to protect it and take it home for him. I was often picking up after him, and I didn't think he would notice his missing car half way home and start to get upset, and I didn't want him to think I had taken it away or was trying to hide it from him, so off the top of my head I improvised this ill conceived plan to "materialize" his toy in the pool. I took a shortcut to the pool when we got home and carefully placed his toy where he would immediately find it, and then went inside before he saw me there. He was so happy and amazed when he found it there. He believed in my magical powers for years and finally one day in his 20s asked me how it I did it because he still believed it was magic.

I confessed, and it was tough to burst that bubble because it was a truly precious memory for us both. But it goes to show how powerful belief in magic can be. More than likely the return of your toy dino tail had to do with something similar. Perhaps someone who cared for you very much searched through lord knows how many more eggs to find a replacement tail just to make you day a little happier, to see the joy in your eyes at discovering it and the wonder in your belief in magic. These kinds of things do happen. What would they think if they knew that their innocent little deception was leading you into a life of drug dens?

I'm not the best equipped person here to provide any advice on how to handle your trip, especially if it involves tricksters. That's more @Christopher O'Brien's realm of expertise.

If they relay blueprints on how to build a working antigravity drive, and it actually works, then I'll start taking them seriously. Don't forget to ask them if you should run into any!

Randall,

Ayahuasca is NOT addictive. Yet you wouldn't know that because you know nothing about it. Are you catching my drift?

 

[Psychedelic_Alchemist]

Randall, it's a brave new world out there and we are just scratching the surface. After 60 years of spinning ufological wheels, new thinking, new ideas and new approaches are needed. I'm saddened that you instantly equate the exploration of inner space w/ "ufo drug cults," and buy into knee-jerk societal thinking that psychedelics CANNOT POSSIBLY be a potential tool of exploration and that such behavior is bound to end up badly, cults/suicides, etc.

Like many things in life, 'many are called, few are chosen.' I am grateful that folks younger than me are motivated to scout out the inner terrain and report back to the rest of us. Who knows what could be lurking under the surface of "normal" perception awaiting the chance for union/communication/[FILL IN THE BLANK]. THANK YOU ufocurious!
I'm taking notes, and you all should be too.

Chris,

Did your prior use of psychedelics help spur your research into the paranormal in any way?

 

[Psychedelic_Alchemist]

I didn't "instantly equate the exploration of inner space w/ "ufo drug cults". My first concern was for the safety and well being of one of our forum participants. The concern over the use of drugs within ufology came later when I realized that there was a connection between drugs and people who have had drug induced contactee like experiences. Surely you must appreciate that for this to be taken seriously in ufology, an objective view is necessary. If I can make the connection between UFO cults and shamanistic UFO contactee experiences, so can anyone who would use that to discredit the field. Therefore a dispassionate and objective, if not skeptical view is essential in the analysis of these types of experiences.

You don't need to be concerned for the safety and well being of ufocurious. She's an adult, and surely capable of making her own decisions and taking care of herself.

 

[Psychedelic_Alchemist]

Whenever I see the word "spiritual" it pings my skeptometer. From my personal study of the word, it seems more like a convenience term used by mystics. In practical terms I can't distinguish from the word "personality". For example you could say, "Carla has a kind personality." Or we can say, "Carla is a kind spirit." Or we can say, "We have psychiatrists that separate patients in 2 categories: mental illness and personality unbalance." Once the person's personality is back in "balance", the disorder is cured. If I'm wrong, then please tell me how I would tell the difference? Is not the so-called "spiritual unbalance" manifested in the patient's personality ( feelings of depression, anxiety, joy, and other emotions and thoughts and how we express them )? It seems to me that when we throw out the "magical" part of it we can demystify the problems and learn to handle them ourselves rather than depending on witch doctors and magic.

I don't think your nuts ( not yet anyway ). I think many of us have experienced what is sometimes called spontaneous dematerialization, and spontaneous materialization , the apparent sudden and unexplained loss or detection of things, usually small things of little consequence, but enough to make you wonder.

Happiness and truth aren't always found together. Sometimes the truth can hurt. Sometimes it's easier to believe in the myth. I'm a truth seeker more than a pleasure seeker. If this is also true of your son, then he should be commended for his commitment to his path, whether it makes him happy or not.

Perhaps it's physically non addictive, but every study I've looked at recently says that there are no conclusive results on that, and physical addiction is different from the addiction created by the habit and the social structures that support it. Plus it's still a wise idea for no other reason than your own piece of mind to experience that all for yourself, and the only way to do it is to give yourself a quota and see how difficult it is for you to leave the substance and it's lifestyle behind. If you can't accept that truth, then you're already in the early stages of denial.

What studies would those be?

 

[Christopher O'Brien]

Chris, Did your prior use of psychedelics help spur your research into the paranormal in any way?

Not directly. I didn't get involved in active field investigation & research until I was 35. The bulk of my use of psychedelics was in my teens and early 20s. It did open me up further to the possibility that these phenomena are real. My normal skeptical nature was tempered somewhat I suspect...