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Thoughts on conscience, entities, ufos plus AYAHUASCA
- Thread starter Ufocurious
- Start date
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:Pardon me, Ufocurious, as I'm about to pee in the pooland support ufology on a point or two and challenge the contention that the machine elves come from an independent and substantial reality, like the grey aliens that some, but not all, experienccers of DMT report as written about in The Spirit Molecule. I started researching this notion of people experiencing the greys while on DMT along with the experience that people have on hallucinogens and why it is that the experience that they carry with them from their trip is as real as any reality they've previously experienced.
While I would like to believe in this alternate, seemingly substantial reality, as I also know, that like you, Ufocurious, the experience that we carry from profound emotional, sacred moments in our lives do become living and breathing memories with purpose. It is its own reality. While no one knows what's really taking place durng these high octane fueled journeys, there is a suspicion that during such intensities the power of belief in this altered reality is something facilitated literally by the intense emotions themselves. During traumatic moments many believe they have exceptional recall but it's often quite different from that. See: DMT, Aliens, and Reality—Part 2 | Psychology Today (some of the tone here towards the end I don't side with but the opening is sound)
So I'm going to make a leap and proclaim that the likelihood that anyone is tripping into a twilight zone of a reality just beneath the one we're sharing right now is probably just the entheogens talking and not anything real at all.
Anyone who has taken goblin acid can tell you just how quickly you can find yourself in the land of ugly dwarves, but that does not make it real. Some drugs just happen to produce very specific visual effects i.e. intense colour, geometric patterns, machine elves, grey aliens! And as per the article above (it has a good part 1 too) some people's absorption ability just make them more likely to trip right into the land of unknown & profound presences.
The question you raise -- concerning the 'reality' quotient we can attribute to our interpretations of reality -- applies not just to altered states assisted by consumption of 'mind-altering drugs' but to all our interpretations of reality. And it comes down to the question of the kinds of information we receive through our own embodied consciousness and mind, with which our brains (in facilitating consciousness and mind) attempt to cope. My guess is that DMT, ayahuasca, and similarly mind-altering biochemical substances do 'open the doors of our perception' (in Aldous Huxley's phrase) to the extent that we receive additional information from the world with which our accustomed (ordinary, 'normal') brain processing cannot easily cope [i.e., sort, categorize, make sense of, interpret]. You've cited as examples "very specific visual effects i.e. intense colour, geometric patterns, machine elves, grey aliens" and conceptualize the causes of these perceived 'unrealities' as "DMT accidental brain spill", "lone individuals concocting realities out of the hallucinatory realm", "just the entheogens talking." And that is what I want to question.
What is it that has led researchers and experiencers of the effects of these substances to propose that a different level of 'reality' is reached through their use? It's the commonality of their experiences, the apparent fact that they encounter the same things: more vivid colors, perhaps 'new colors', geometric (perhaps hypergeometric) phenomena, and the critters: machine elves, grey aliens, the mantis-like beings, and so forth. That users of these substances report seeing very similar 'things' naturally inclines them to think that they're seeing something 'real' that is 'out there in the world' since in our species' exploration of the local earth world we have generally been able to confirm a commonality of experiences. But not all of the experiencers conclude that they've visited an actual 'reality' additional to our own. @Ufocurious has told us several times that her current experimentation with ayahuasca is a form of research in which she hopes to find out how much of what she experiences through consuming ayahuasca is 'in her head' as opposed to being 'out there in the world', and I applaud her curiosity about this and her courage. She (and we) will benefit from whatever she (and similar critically minded experimenters) can learn from their experiences with ayahuasca (and by extension other mind-altering substances), a contribution to the larger effort to understand more about consciousness, mind, and the brain and how they work together in disclosing the nature of reality.
So it might just be possible that a lot of alien abductions and/or humanoid contact by single witnesses may simply be spontaneous DMT brain releases - it's possible. Some of these may happen to people in waking states, or as they are going downstairs to check on something after a long shift at the hospital and see what that nurse saw in her living room as per the recent Paracast episode with Chris Rutkowski. I know that this is doubtful talk, but it does come from a sincerity that I have that doubts very much that alien entities go around abducting people - my influence from reading @trainedobserver is a big one; I don't deny it.
Anything's possible I suppose. That hypothesis might be easily tested by equipping people who claim repeated abductions with a home blood test kit which some might use soon enough to demonstrate the presence of DMT in their bloodstream. Hospitals cooperating in NDE research might also be persuaded to test the blood of patients flat-lining in ERs and surgeries for DMT for evaluation in cases of reported NDEs. These samplings could be extended far and wide in time, sufficient (if DMT is consistently found in most or all of them) to persuade materialists that these experiences and perhaps other anomalous experiences reported over millenia can be prosaically explained. Most people already prefer to think so, without evidence.
When I first read discussions of alien abduction experiences I thought that a) their consistency in details and emotional reactions required that they be investigated, and b) that it might be the case that this consistency resulted from common limitations in the human brain's capacity to make sense of whatever was actually going on. It might be, I speculated, that nothing more was going on than a vague, inchoate, sensing of an intrusion into the minds of 'abductees' rather than into their bodies and that they correctly sensed this much but, emotionally alarmed by it, interpreted it as similar to human medical procedures against which the embodied individual feels (and indeed is) helpless. Similarly, individuals claiming to have been taken for trips into space aboard ufos might have done so only in a virtual reality conveyed telepathically into the conscious and subconscious mind of the percipient. I still think that telepathic communications by entities other than ourselves is most likely to be the source of the above 'experiences'. For what purpose? To expand our thinking to take account of life beyond our own as narrowly experienced and interpreted on this planet, to prepare us gradually to enter a galactic or universal community of other intelligences, societies, and ways of living. Most of what we are uncomfortable with in various ufo phenomena might be merely the result of the native limitations of our brains [embodied and thus emotionally vulnerable] in making sense of ideas and representations of reality being expressed to us from beyond our accustomed 'world'. I think we need to work on anomalous phenomena with our minds, exercised to the greatest degree possible without presuppositions.
[Burnt continues, I interpolate comments]:
Still, I do leave the door open for the possibility of alien visitation in our skies {I agree; there is tangible physical evidence of this} or some odd trickster element {the trickster element is, I think, within ourselves, a figure we project outside ourselves but which originates in ourselves as a coping mechanism}, or even ultra or intraterrestrial {that is of course possible} that create such incidents in the populous for reasons unknown {do 'they' seek to confuse us, or do we respond to their incoming information with confusion of our own?}. But I do not think we will contact them with entheogens. I think they have their value in society, but I don't think that's one of them. {I think we can use entheogens as a further pathway into understanding the workings of our own consciousness, mind, and brain.}
And now, for what it's worth, I think that ufology might be right when it comes to lone individuals concocting realities out of the hallucinatory realm {that's unfortunately presuppositional thinking} that instead of benefiting their inner development or bringing about healing, may in fact be emotionally charging themselves with completely unhealthy thoughts that can lead to a different gate after all. It looks to me like the evidence goes in the opposite direction, toward expanded consciousness, an appreciation of the interconnection of our species, other species, and our shared planetary ecology. I see nothing unhealthy in those ideas.
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Tyger
Paranormal Adept
@Constance Nice response. 
Ufocurious
Paranormal Maven
Constance
I am in a hurry, but I want to tell you I loved your post.
I do have some opinions to add, specially regarding abductees and contactees.
I feel sorry for the people going through those experiences. They are "real", at least for them, and they end up in a whirlpool of opinions that only adds to the complexity of the experience.
Too bad John Mack has passed away. However there are people continuing his work, but on the fringe as they do not have his status of being a Harvard professor.
If I was an abductee and had to rely on what people are saying on the Internet I would probably get a lot of antidepressants and block my mind.
I am in a hurry, but I want to tell you I loved your post.
I do have some opinions to add, specially regarding abductees and contactees.
I feel sorry for the people going through those experiences. They are "real", at least for them, and they end up in a whirlpool of opinions that only adds to the complexity of the experience.
Too bad John Mack has passed away. However there are people continuing his work, but on the fringe as they do not have his status of being a Harvard professor.
If I was an abductee and had to rely on what people are saying on the Internet I would probably get a lot of antidepressants and block my mind.
Randall
J. Randall Murphy
There's certainly nothing unhealthy in an appreciation of the interconnection of our species, other species, and our shared planetary ecology, but one doesn't have to be high on drugs to have that appreciation. In fact it's even better not to be high on drugs in order to make it happen, because if one stays straight and applies themselves, they probably have a greater chance of attaining a Bachelor of Sciences in Ecology degree, getting a job in the field, and initiating real change that helps the planet heal, than if they enroll in a course of jungle drug therapy. Would you want an ecological assessment for your region done by someone hanging around in a hut high on drugs? Or would you want someone with impeccable credentials out gathering scientific evidence? Would you want your park wardens spaced out on drugs, or out there sharp as tacks catching poachers?
Regarding the "expanded consciousness" component, I don't doubt that one's mind experiences sensory stimuli that they don't normally perceive, but there's no convincing evidence that such "expanded" perceptions are caused by external stimuli rather than internal chemistry, and therefore the logical conclusion is that such perceptions are of an entirely subjective nature. That's not to say that the subjective perceptual and emotional experiences aren't real within the context of what is going on in one's own mind, or that under the right circumstances the substances involved can't have some beneficial psychological or physiological effect, but I think it's important to recognize the difference between drug induced fantasy and objective reality.
A brief History of Psychedelic Psychiatry
By Mo Castandi
On 5th May, 1953, the novelist Aldous Huxley dissolved four-tenths of a gram of mescaline in a glass of water, drank it, then sat back and waited for the drug to take effect. Huxley took the drug in his California home under the direct supervision of psychiatrist Humphry Osmond, to whom Huxley had volunteered himself as “a willing and eager guinea pig”.
Osmond was one of a small group of psychiatrists who pioneered the use of LSD as a treatment for alcoholism and various mental disorders in the early 1950s. He coined the term psychedelic, meaning ‘mind manifesting’ and although his research into the therapeutic potential of LSD produced promising initial results, it was halted during the 1960s for social and political reasons. REST OF THE ARTICLE HERE:
By Mo Castandi
On 5th May, 1953, the novelist Aldous Huxley dissolved four-tenths of a gram of mescaline in a glass of water, drank it, then sat back and waited for the drug to take effect. Huxley took the drug in his California home under the direct supervision of psychiatrist Humphry Osmond, to whom Huxley had volunteered himself as “a willing and eager guinea pig”.
Osmond was one of a small group of psychiatrists who pioneered the use of LSD as a treatment for alcoholism and various mental disorders in the early 1950s. He coined the term psychedelic, meaning ‘mind manifesting’ and although his research into the therapeutic potential of LSD produced promising initial results, it was halted during the 1960s for social and political reasons. REST OF THE ARTICLE HERE:
Burnt State
Paranormal Adept
Constance, i agree with a lot of what you wrote.
In that specific dmt example, an isolated one at that, it seems that the indivudual's pursuit of a rocketship high led him to an experience he personally connected to the Heaven's Gate crew, my own Ufological nemesis. Yes, drugs expand consciousness and create intensities of feelings very difficult to forget, but not all things found here are truths. I advocate meditation before drugs to explore or to heal. And btw some meditators also report "alien" contact. So before I would reach out to telepathic communication from unknown entities as the source I would look more closely at the commonalities that go along with certain experiences taking place inside the common, finite territory of the cerebellum and our society. I like John Mack's work over Hopkins' but would debate the source of the internal experience still.
The experience of seeing different types of aliens (reptilian, greys, Nordics etc.), elves, dwarves etc. appear to have socio-cultural connections, as do even the different kinds of ships seem to be tied to different geographies and points in time. I've often thought that what we see, think we see, or hallucinate, are very much tied to the nature of the stimulus and its interaction with our own culturally programmed, or frontloaded, experiences.
If we could separate the witnesses of nuts and bolts craft from the experiencesrs of ayhuasca I would argue that what they are seeing has everything to do with the drug and it's specific effects: again examples above include goblin acid & e.l.wisty's reference to a common substance that routinely produces violent imagery for the experiencer. So it's not really about an external agent, but an internal effect tied mostly to the chemistries involved (brain and drug interaction) and the socio-cultural parameters of the experiencer. Set and setting define much of any hallucinogenic experience.
Consistency in DMT then is about its chemistry more than anything else. The reporting of a vision as a substantial reality being experienced is not about stepping into an actual dimension IMHO but all about the same feelings one has upon waking up from a dream that features many familiar faces from the real world and in an environment that felt real, and so we wake up often with the same feelings as if that dream really did happen. Some dreams have impact for days, months maybe; some are even unforgettable. But just like powerful drug induced experiences, it does not mean they are real, no matter the emotional intensity or conviction the experiencer brings to the table. It's still an entheogenic fabrication. No telepathy at all.
What I agree very much with is the opportunity to see an interconnectivity or even an understanding of certain processes, or perhaps even hidden knowledge, that may come out of the hallucinogenic experience. It certainly allows people in some cases to eradicate the veil of consumer society & see through notions of pretense, fabrication and some of the junk we've all been brainwashed with. Some people do this by thinking it through, meditating, and others take mushrooms and are then allowed to remove the traditional anxiety that mortality brings to us. Others though may stumble directly into a rearrangement of reality, and contrary to some above posts, I do know people who walked through the doors of perception and then could not walk back through; because, their mind got rearranged by the drugs permanently and they have never been the same since.
As for personal, carefully planned research into ayhuasca, I see this as a positive if it is a positive for the person choosing that path and who am I to say otherwise. That's what free will is all about.
In that specific dmt example, an isolated one at that, it seems that the indivudual's pursuit of a rocketship high led him to an experience he personally connected to the Heaven's Gate crew, my own Ufological nemesis. Yes, drugs expand consciousness and create intensities of feelings very difficult to forget, but not all things found here are truths. I advocate meditation before drugs to explore or to heal. And btw some meditators also report "alien" contact. So before I would reach out to telepathic communication from unknown entities as the source I would look more closely at the commonalities that go along with certain experiences taking place inside the common, finite territory of the cerebellum and our society. I like John Mack's work over Hopkins' but would debate the source of the internal experience still.
The experience of seeing different types of aliens (reptilian, greys, Nordics etc.), elves, dwarves etc. appear to have socio-cultural connections, as do even the different kinds of ships seem to be tied to different geographies and points in time. I've often thought that what we see, think we see, or hallucinate, are very much tied to the nature of the stimulus and its interaction with our own culturally programmed, or frontloaded, experiences.
If we could separate the witnesses of nuts and bolts craft from the experiencesrs of ayhuasca I would argue that what they are seeing has everything to do with the drug and it's specific effects: again examples above include goblin acid & e.l.wisty's reference to a common substance that routinely produces violent imagery for the experiencer. So it's not really about an external agent, but an internal effect tied mostly to the chemistries involved (brain and drug interaction) and the socio-cultural parameters of the experiencer. Set and setting define much of any hallucinogenic experience.
Consistency in DMT then is about its chemistry more than anything else. The reporting of a vision as a substantial reality being experienced is not about stepping into an actual dimension IMHO but all about the same feelings one has upon waking up from a dream that features many familiar faces from the real world and in an environment that felt real, and so we wake up often with the same feelings as if that dream really did happen. Some dreams have impact for days, months maybe; some are even unforgettable. But just like powerful drug induced experiences, it does not mean they are real, no matter the emotional intensity or conviction the experiencer brings to the table. It's still an entheogenic fabrication. No telepathy at all.
What I agree very much with is the opportunity to see an interconnectivity or even an understanding of certain processes, or perhaps even hidden knowledge, that may come out of the hallucinogenic experience. It certainly allows people in some cases to eradicate the veil of consumer society & see through notions of pretense, fabrication and some of the junk we've all been brainwashed with. Some people do this by thinking it through, meditating, and others take mushrooms and are then allowed to remove the traditional anxiety that mortality brings to us. Others though may stumble directly into a rearrangement of reality, and contrary to some above posts, I do know people who walked through the doors of perception and then could not walk back through; because, their mind got rearranged by the drugs permanently and they have never been the same since.
As for personal, carefully planned research into ayhuasca, I see this as a positive if it is a positive for the person choosing that path and who am I to say otherwise. That's what free will is all about.
Here, here, couldn't agree more!
Psychedelic_Alchemist
Paranormal Maven
That's probably the best post I've ever read on these forums. Well said.
Psychedelic_Alchemist
Paranormal Maven
"Many anthropologists are convinced that as far back as the Upper Paleolithic our ancestors placed a high value on hallucinations and made extensive use of psychoactive plants to induce them."
"We might feel very sure that there is no more to reality than the material world in which we live, but we cannot prove that this is the case. Theoretically there could be other realms, other dimensions, as all religious traditions and quantum physics alike maintain. Theoretically the brain could be as much a receiver as a generator of consciousness and thus might be fine-tuned in altered states to pick up wavelengths that are normally not accessible to us. Depending on our point of view and our experiences, we might find that proposition that such 'otherworlds' are real more or less improbable, but it is important to register that no empirical evidence exists that rules them out entirely."
"So here are people without electron microscopes who choose, among some 80,000 Amazonian plant species, the leaves of a bush containing a hallucinogenic brain hormone, which they combine with a vine containing substances that inactivate an enzyme of the digestive tract which would otherwise block the hallucinogenic effect. And they do this to modify their consciousness. It's as if they knew about the molecular properties of plants and the art of combining them, and when one asks them how they know these things, they say their knowledge comes directly from hallucinogenic plants."
"Matter and spirit. As above so below. Science teaches us to believe that the material world is the primary and only reality. But from the ayahuasca perspective this is absolutely not the case. What we call the material world, our 'consensual reality', is only part of the pattern - probably not even the primary part. Viewed through the lens of ayahuasca, another 'world' becomes visible, another reality, perhaps many of them. And because these worlds interpenetrate our own, effects in this world may turn out to have causes in the other worlds. Perhaps the material world is indeed the creation of spirits but if so then presumably they made it because they need it (for their own experience/evolution/development?). The material world, if cut off from the spirit world, becomes meaningless and empty. So the material world needs the spirit world too. Ayahuasca, and similar 'master plants', appear to provide a direct means of communication with the spirit realm for sentient beings of the material world. The plants educate us by allowing us to experience in visions the reality of the supernatural - something normally impossible or very difficult for us to do as material-bound creatures."
Quotes from Graham Hancock's Supernatural: Meetings with the Ancient Teachers of Mankind.
"We might feel very sure that there is no more to reality than the material world in which we live, but we cannot prove that this is the case. Theoretically there could be other realms, other dimensions, as all religious traditions and quantum physics alike maintain. Theoretically the brain could be as much a receiver as a generator of consciousness and thus might be fine-tuned in altered states to pick up wavelengths that are normally not accessible to us. Depending on our point of view and our experiences, we might find that proposition that such 'otherworlds' are real more or less improbable, but it is important to register that no empirical evidence exists that rules them out entirely."
"So here are people without electron microscopes who choose, among some 80,000 Amazonian plant species, the leaves of a bush containing a hallucinogenic brain hormone, which they combine with a vine containing substances that inactivate an enzyme of the digestive tract which would otherwise block the hallucinogenic effect. And they do this to modify their consciousness. It's as if they knew about the molecular properties of plants and the art of combining them, and when one asks them how they know these things, they say their knowledge comes directly from hallucinogenic plants."
"Matter and spirit. As above so below. Science teaches us to believe that the material world is the primary and only reality. But from the ayahuasca perspective this is absolutely not the case. What we call the material world, our 'consensual reality', is only part of the pattern - probably not even the primary part. Viewed through the lens of ayahuasca, another 'world' becomes visible, another reality, perhaps many of them. And because these worlds interpenetrate our own, effects in this world may turn out to have causes in the other worlds. Perhaps the material world is indeed the creation of spirits but if so then presumably they made it because they need it (for their own experience/evolution/development?). The material world, if cut off from the spirit world, becomes meaningless and empty. So the material world needs the spirit world too. Ayahuasca, and similar 'master plants', appear to provide a direct means of communication with the spirit realm for sentient beings of the material world. The plants educate us by allowing us to experience in visions the reality of the supernatural - something normally impossible or very difficult for us to do as material-bound creatures."
Quotes from Graham Hancock's Supernatural: Meetings with the Ancient Teachers of Mankind.
Randall
J. Randall Murphy
That may be true, but let's consider what other medical options they had? Compared to today they had next to nothing. Nowadays we fly in machines made of tons of metal and alloys that hadn't even been dreamed of in the stone age, land it near some primitive village and restore eyesight to the blind. We've come a long way baby. Now would you want the pilot flying the plane or the doctor operating on your eye to be high on ayahuasca?
Orbis Flying Eye Hospital - This Is What Real Science Does
( while NOT high on ayahuasca )
( while NOT high on ayahuasca )
Please don't start with the quantum woo.
Quantum Woo
Let me get this straight. Some primitive human by pure chance ate some hallucinogenic plant, liked getting high, and continued to evolve their culture to the point of performing shamanic rituals in jungle huts in the present day, but somehow you're equating that stunted level of technical development to modern day scientists using electron microscopes? Their process is obviously simple trial and error and there has probably been more examples of tragedy than the one I posted earlier in the thread.
From what I've heard, hallucinatory drugs work by chemically inducing our brains to produce spontaneous imagery and other sensory experiences, however there is no ( zero ) conclusive evidence that hallucinatory perceptions reflect any objective reality. Therefore these "other worlds" or "other realities" are purely a figment of the users imagination. That being said the imagination is still a powerful thing. Maybe some inspiration or other residual effects might be a byproduct of these experiences, but that's about as far as it goes.
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Psychedelic_Alchemist
Paranormal Maven
-Where did you hear that? And as far as "other realities" being purely figments of user's imagination, that's just your opinion and NOT scientific fact.
Your responses come across as being extremely pompous and dismissive, as if you know the answer to everything, which you've clearly demonstrated that you don't. In fact, you're not really clued into the arguments surrounding entheogens or psychedelics, and have never taken any yourself so cannot speak from experience. I also get the strong impression that you revel in nitpicking points that other posters make, especially if it doesn't agree with your worldview. I'm not interested in getting into a long drawn out argument with you over this fascinating issue because I don't have the time to school you on this topic. It's a shame such an interesting thread was hijacked by you in this manner. With that I bid you farewell.
Psychedelic_Alchemist
Paranormal Maven
You'll have to click on the yellow box to read the earlier points I made in bold.
fastwalker
Skilled Investigator
I am reminded of the books written by Carlos Castaneda (Yes, I read them all back in the day, I was convinced of the truth path to enlightenment could be found in hallucinogenic drugs. HA!) His adventures with Don Juan the Indian shaman who led him down the mythic drug laden paths to true powers and alternate worlds were supposedly chronicled in his books and to this day his publisher lists them under anthropology instead of fiction I believe.
He was latter proven to be a fraud and creator of a Heavens Gate like cult, that had mostly women in it that were his witches (lovers) and when he died many committed suicide, though some are still thought to be alive. I encourage you to Google him. There is much there in his books that reminds me of these trips on AYAHUASCA. I regret every part of my past history that revolved around hallucinogenic drugs, there is no truth there, for me there was only darkness.
He was latter proven to be a fraud and creator of a Heavens Gate like cult, that had mostly women in it that were his witches (lovers) and when he died many committed suicide, though some are still thought to be alive. I encourage you to Google him. There is much there in his books that reminds me of these trips on AYAHUASCA. I regret every part of my past history that revolved around hallucinogenic drugs, there is no truth there, for me there was only darkness.
boomerang
Paranormal Adept
I think anyone attempting to "unpack" and assess the impact and interrelationship hallucinogens have had, and are having, on today's society would benefit from reading about efforts and experiences of the earliest modern researchers attempting to understand these incredibly powerful substances. Observations and measurements done in controlled settings, during that limited interval when certain entheogens became a subject of interest to scientists and intellectuals of the day, until research became virtually impossible due to their legal classification, makes for important reading. The inherent dilemma: One can only delve so far into an understanding of what takes place at the mind body interface with these substances before hitting a kind of experiential wall beyond which words are apparently inadequate. One then must, as did those conducting early experimental programs, decide whether to undergo the experience itself in search of a better understanding, or to remain an outside observer in an effort to preserve objectivity. It would seem that most researchers opted for at least one experience, although some did not.
The history of hallucinogens (chiefly LSD) and research is one of the thorniest of examples of the mind-body problem. Which of the two groups of researchers: the experiencers who often (but not always) came away with a changed view of reality, or the non-experiencers have the more valid understanding of human consciousness? Attributing changes in world view to brain damage is a cop out. Based on what we currently know, anyway. Because what has seemingly been "damaged" is not the brain but the mind. Potential convolutions here should be obvious.
Of course--our current understanding would be much greater if these substances had been available to researchers for lo these many decades instead of being sequestered behind the iron door of their Schedule I status. But I think there is a kind of "invasion of the body snatchers" fear steering legal policy. How to handle drugs so powerful than one or two doses may permanently change the world views of those those charged with investigating their effects? Dunno.....
A good and informative read here is "Storming Heaven: LSD And The American Dream", by Jay Stevens.
The history of hallucinogens (chiefly LSD) and research is one of the thorniest of examples of the mind-body problem. Which of the two groups of researchers: the experiencers who often (but not always) came away with a changed view of reality, or the non-experiencers have the more valid understanding of human consciousness? Attributing changes in world view to brain damage is a cop out. Based on what we currently know, anyway. Because what has seemingly been "damaged" is not the brain but the mind. Potential convolutions here should be obvious.
Of course--our current understanding would be much greater if these substances had been available to researchers for lo these many decades instead of being sequestered behind the iron door of their Schedule I status. But I think there is a kind of "invasion of the body snatchers" fear steering legal policy. How to handle drugs so powerful than one or two doses may permanently change the world views of those those charged with investigating their effects? Dunno.....
A good and informative read here is "Storming Heaven: LSD And The American Dream", by Jay Stevens.
Ufocurious
Paranormal Maven
Dear posters
First of all: this thread is not to be hijacked by people who do not believe in other realities or had had spontaneous or drug induced altered states.
If you are against it, refrain from posting. It will make the thread unreadable and tiring.
Some of us have had experiences in our lives that make us doubt the all materialistic view of reality. Are they real? Well, not even scientists can agree about that, so there is plenty of room for searching and research.
After reading a lot about Ayahuasca, one way to summarise the induced state it brings is conscious dreaming.
But what is a dream? Another pandora box to open.
Brain discharge, unconscious thoughts peering through, spirit walkabouts, etc? There are many options out there.
I am one person. I am an individual. I have had my weird dream experiences. I have had conscious altered mind states. And this is my trip. I invited you to come along because I know we are all curious people, otherwise we would not bother to belong to a paranormal/UFO forum.
I am not an evangelist, and I do have a disdain for people that try to impose their beliefs on others.
If you have experiences to share in either side of the materialistic/spiritual spectrum, be welcome to post. That is for you @fastwalker! If you want to share your experiences, we will read them with respect for your courage to share them.
So, anyone that posts here should be non-judgemental and respectful for my choice.
I am a strong person. I have my own ideas. I do not lead my life by other people's standards.
Have all a nice day. Take time time to appreciate our planet. It is beautiful. Enjoy the feeling that nature is able to give us. If you all could bring that state to everyday life in the rat race and concrete jungle we mostly dwell in, life would be much more pleasant. And there is even scientific proof for that! Check Rachel and Stephen Kaplan.
First of all: this thread is not to be hijacked by people who do not believe in other realities or had had spontaneous or drug induced altered states.
If you are against it, refrain from posting. It will make the thread unreadable and tiring.
Some of us have had experiences in our lives that make us doubt the all materialistic view of reality. Are they real? Well, not even scientists can agree about that, so there is plenty of room for searching and research.
After reading a lot about Ayahuasca, one way to summarise the induced state it brings is conscious dreaming.
But what is a dream? Another pandora box to open.
Brain discharge, unconscious thoughts peering through, spirit walkabouts, etc? There are many options out there.
I am one person. I am an individual. I have had my weird dream experiences. I have had conscious altered mind states. And this is my trip. I invited you to come along because I know we are all curious people, otherwise we would not bother to belong to a paranormal/UFO forum.
I am not an evangelist, and I do have a disdain for people that try to impose their beliefs on others.
If you have experiences to share in either side of the materialistic/spiritual spectrum, be welcome to post.
That is for you @fastwalker! If you want to share your experiences, we will read them with respect for your courage to share them.So, anyone that posts here should be non-judgemental and respectful for my choice.
I am a strong person. I have my own ideas. I do not lead my life by other people's standards.
Have all a nice day. Take time time to appreciate our planet. It is beautiful. Enjoy the feeling that nature is able to give us. If you all could bring that state to everyday life in the rat race and concrete jungle we mostly dwell in, life would be much more pleasant. And there is even scientific proof for that! Check Rachel and Stephen Kaplan.
Tyger
Paranormal Adept
Correct.
Exactly so.
You've got it in a nutshell. Such nit-picking takes up needless posting space. You will also notice that Randall absolutely never answers one's own directed questions to him, though he posts endless questions in his own posts and berates the targeted poster if they do not answer his queries. He will claim 'evasion' - while yet that is all Randall does is evade.
Exactly so. You have identified what Randall does endlessly. He very much wants a long drawn out argument.
Please do not leave, however. Do bring your concern to the attention of a moderator @Goggs Mackay
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Tyger
Paranormal Adept
Well said. As I mentioned in a previous post, please bring your concerns to the attention of a moderator @Goggs Mackay
The hijacking of threads by Randall Murphy goes on endlessly, driving away posters. Those of us familiar with his views watch him roll out the same videos and the same arguments vis-a-vis his fear of spirituality and anything he cannot control, clogging up threads with his repetitious pov - and yes - disdain, if not outright contempt, for anyone who holds views not mechanistic, materialistic and atheistic. There is nothing new here.
I am doing a shout-out here because while you, UFocurious, are a strong person, not to be bullied, there are others who are not so made, and wind up getting cowed or beaten back into silence. Those of us who have been around a while have seen what Randall Murphy does in spades, up close and personal. No one is saying that Randall Murphy cannot have his pov. More power to him - he simply should not be a bully, should not post on threads whose topic he disapproves or has no experience with. Randall Murphy wants very much to be a respected spokesperson for ufology - he is very concerned about his 'public reputation' - yet his internet manners leave a great deal wanting. He is an embarrassment.
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Randall
J. Randall Murphy
Actually, what I said was, "From what I've heard, hallucinatory drugs work by chemically inducing our brains to produce spontaneous imagery and other sensory experiences, however there is no ( zero ) conclusive evidence that hallucinatory perceptions reflect any objective reality. Therefore these "other worlds" or "other realities" are purely a figment of the users imagination." So let's keep it in context. Some opinions carry more weight than others. If you have some evidence ( of any kind ) that makes it reasonable for us to conclude that drug induced hallucinations aren't the result of abnormal brain chemistry, and do reflect some objective reality, and therefore aren't simply figments of the user's imagination, then by all means, please share.
That seems to be the typical response of those who can't or are unwilling to substantiate their position: If you can't address the issues, attack the poster.
If you call differentiating between objective reality and drug induced hallucinations "nitpicking", then I guess I'm guilty as charged.
Another typical response by those who either cannot or are unwilling to substantiate their position: Claim that doing so is a waste of your time and accuse the person asking for evidence of some bogus indiscretion. There's no hijacking going on here. Everyone is free to comment, and simply expecting everyone to agree with you isn't a reasonable position to take. Counterpoint provides a balance that is needed if one is to "separate the signal from the noise". Faith in the reliability of claims made by religion and/or drug culture should be questioned just like anything else.
Dare I say, have a nice trip
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Randall
J. Randall Murphy
Sorry to hear that you didn't come away with some residual positivity in some regard. About all I can say is try not to have regrets. Even negative experiences can serve some purpose for good. They're all part of life's journey and therefore have some value, even if we don't recognize it at the time.
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