Travis Walton - September 21, 2014

[Jeremiah Dugger]

I think I was wrong about there being no shift in Tracis' story as here we see him in a very low key but highly produced video expressing his role as reluctant philosopher with a message to humanity. I think it will be interesting to watch that aspect unfold over time. I'm also interested in the addition of the two crew mates on stage and how often they will take on that role. Also, Mike Rogers, the one with the original logging contract and driving the vehicle away from the UFO, is also the webmaster of the main Walton site.

Travis Walton reveals new theory on Fire in the Sky Abduction - Openminds.tv

Question: can someone please point to exactly where in the timeline that Travis is hospitalized for dehydration? I see examinations by doctors and the urine test that surprisingly established no ketones despite a five day absence but seem to keep missing the part where he gets hospitalized.

Sure. Fair question for how murky this is getting.
On the show, at about (1:28) an hour and twenty-eight minutes in, Gene asked Travis if he felt any hunger or thirst when he found himself back on the road in the woods. Travis says he was dehydrated and that he had "pronounced" weight loss which returned to normal within hours.* He says he's back to normal weight the next day. He goes on about comparing scales at the doctors office and about the rapidly restoring weight being due to dehydration and not starvation.
But if you listen to clips 7 and 8 of the audio Heidi posted, in clip 7 we hear a phone conversation between two newsmen and they say Travis was dropped off/recovered around 12:00am and he's now in the hospital ( we don't know how long Travis has been back in relation to this phone call; maybe a few hours.
Clip 8 is a follow up phone call with the same two newsmen the following day and Travis is still in the hospital. He'll spend the day there while the crew take their polygraph tests and it's expected he'll be released the next day and take his.
*I've noticed this as one of the inconsistencies in the story. I wonder if his narrative on the show was just sparse or if over the years his memory of the events has skewed.
Interesting link to openminds. He pretty much said as much ( his "ambulance theory") on the show, I think.
I like the added update that as polygraph technology has progressed, he has continued to take and pass these stress tests.

 

[Jimi H.]

Actually, I would bet most of them were Mormans. Snowflake where Travis lived is almost exclusively a Morman town. As to Jimi's observation about the event proximity to where he "woke up" and "dropped off" in Heber, the distance is about a 20 mile hike through some fairly rough terrain.

Is Arizona north of Phoenix very Mormon, or is it more of a unique thing for that community? (I thought one had to go further north.)

I have turned down all suggestions that I undergo hypnotic regression to uncover more details of my visitation experience as a 6-7 year-old in Bellevue, WA. I've been OK w/ the experience for almost 50 years, so why rock my particular emotional boat?

And it seems to me you'd risk tainting the actual memory you have, possibly removing you one step from the actual experience.

 

[AlienEsq]

Now, I met Travis Walton and Debbie Jordan in Brazil last May. He seemed like someone I would trust. He doesn't have that air I hate about some people out there. Not one ounce of arrogance. And a bit sad. Not the kind of guy the would go on lying all his life.

What I find truly compelling and, ultimately, believable about Travis Walton's story is what you mention here about his lack of arrogance. Travis appears convinced about his story, as he should be; however, he isn't readily dismissive towards the stories of others nor does he pretend to know everything about his own encounter. His lack of arrogance simply makes him more believable and, consequently, credible.

 

[Jimi H.]

..
I'd be interested to know what has been said about Kathleen Marden. There's dispute on her abduction survey, fair enough.

I'll see if I can remember, was it the most recent Chris Rutkowski? Anyone else remembers it?

..
My arguement to speculation is that sometimes that's all you have left until another corner is turned. It's human nature to speculate. It expands our ability to envision what the problem is in order to get to the solution. ..

Yea, you're right, speculation is good, I guess I was trying to make my own point more than answering yours, sorry.

 

[Jimi H.]

I actually see that as one of the inconsistencies in this story. In the show he described them as docile, making hand gestures in an attempt to put him at ease and even stoping in their tracks and leaving him alone in the chamber when he made threatening/panicked/ defensive hand gestures of his own.
But in the audio, from 1975, his brother (in-law?) says Travis used the word "cruel" when describing the beings. Puzzling.

Guest suggestion (wrong thread, I know): An academic with an interest in various religions and their relation to supposed sky-people. A rundown on some of the world religions, spiced up with some of the really curious ones. Could be fascinating imo. But I can't name such a person, so I can't really suggest a specific one!

Toying with the idea of Mormon influence in the Walton case, from a brief skim of the wiki (I know it's not best source, but this is a quickie):

Latter-day Saint leaders have also taught that God the Father was once a mortal man who has completed the process of becoming an exalted being.

Mormon cosmology teaches that the Earth is not unique, but that it is one of many inhabited planets .. it may be interpreted that Mormonism teaches the existence of a multiverse .. Mormon leaders and theologians have taught that these inhabitants are similar or identical to humans ..

Actually, it gets even more relevant further down the page:

In a statement given on July 24, 1870, LDS Church president Brigham Young discussed the possibility that the Sun and the Moon were inhabited. However, Young stated that this was his own personal belief and thoughts. In response to a claim of his being ignorant on the matter, Young admitted his own ignorance and stated, "Are not [we] all ignorant [pertaining to these matters]?

Some modern LDS Church leaders have taught that there are people living on other earths. For instance, apostle Joseph Fielding Smith (1876–1972) wrote:

"We are not the only people that the Lord has created. We have brothers and sisters on other earths. They look like us because they, too, are the children of God and were created in his image, for they are also his offspring .."

Mormon cosmology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This doesn't sound unlike Walton's human-like beings.

Of course, I have no idea whether he is/was a Mormon, or a secretly alholic beverage drinking 'jack' Mormon, so perhaps it's completely irrelevant, but it's an aspect to consider. In any case, perhaps he was culturally primed to experience some weird phenomenon/event in a specific light. Or, assuming a hoax, that the hoax was influenced by what the local community might have believed could be true. In any case, I think he was more into UFOs than he seems to allow, but that is just a sense I have from various bits and pieces.

Did religious considerations influence how he changed his description from 'cruel' to disinterested/benevolent human-like beings?

I repeat, I'm just throwing this up in the air, I have no idea how relevant it is. But looking into it more could at least throw some light on cosmological ideas pertaining to Mormon areas.

 

[Constance]

Finally found where I got that from:
"The UFO phenomenon itself is only one trivial fragment of a much larger phenomenon. It can be divided into two main parts. The first and most important part consists of the mysterious aerial lights which appear to have an intelligence of their own. They have been observed throughout history. Often they project powerful searchlight-like beams toward the ground. Persons caught in these beams undergo remarkable changes of personality. Their IQ skyrockets, they change their jobs, divorce their wives, and in any number of well-documented instances they suddenly rise above their previously mediocre lives and become outstanding statesmen, scientists, poets, and writers, even soldiers...."
I've been listening to hours and hours of old Paracast episodes trying to track down where I got this notion. When that failed, I started skimming through all sorts of books on my shelf. Dr. John Mack, nope. Colin Wilson, nope. C.G. Jung, nope. Vallee, Redfern, Friedman, Streiber even??? Nope. Last place I looked should have been the first: John A. Keel - "The Mothman Prophecies". See the chapter called Take the Train. ... I need a better memory

Thanks so much for all that searching, Jeremiah. Does Keel add details on specific cases demonstrating these changes?

 

[Jeremiah Dugger]

Guest suggestion (wrong thread, I know): An academic with an interest in various religions and their relation to supposed sky-people. A rundown on some of the world religions, spiced up with some of the really curious ones. Could be fascinating imo. But I can't name such a person, so I can't really suggest a specific one!

Toying with the idea of Mormon influence in the Walton case, from a brief skim of the wiki (I know it's not best source, but this is a quickie):




Actually, it gets even more relevant further down the page:



Mormon cosmology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This doesn't sound unlike Walton's human-like beings.

Of course, I have no idea whether he is/was a Mormon, or a secretly alholic beverage drinking 'jack' Mormon, so perhaps it's completely irrelevant, but it's an aspect to consider. In any case, perhaps he was culturally primed to experience some weird phenomenon/event in a specific light. Or, assuming a hoax, that the hoax was influenced by what the local community might have believed could be true. In any case, I think he was more into UFOs than he seems to allow, but that is just a sense I have from various bits and pieces.

Did religious considerations influence how he changed his description from 'cruel' to disinterested/benevolent human-like beings?

I repeat, I'm just throwing this up in the air, I have no idea how relevant it is. But looking into it more could at least throw some light on cosmological ideas pertaining to Mormon areas.

"Guest suggestion (wrong thread, I know): An academic with an interest in various religions and their relation to supposed sky-people."
Check out the old episode with Acharya S.

 

[Jeremiah Dugger]

Thanks so much for all that searching, Jeremiah. Does Keel add details on specific cases demonstrating these changes?

Not in that chapter or even later in that book. I'll re-read Disneyland of the Gods and The Eighth Tower with more of an eye towards that. (They're both short) And I was about to start Operaton Trojan Horse after I finish what Im reading now (Redfern's Close Encounters of the Fatal Kind- which is great)
One of the saddest things about Keel and his legacy is how bitter he seems to have left those who knew him best. And worse yet, the person who seems to have made his own little cottage industry out of Keels work, Andrew Colvin. This guy is incoherent and gives Forteana-at-large a bad name. The same way some Conspiracy theorists have a way of foaming at the mouth and flipping out in response to most every question about deep politics. Unfortunately, he seems to have the bulk of material Keel wrote outside of those 4 books; interviews, articles, etc.

 

[Jeremiah Dugger]

My diligent hours of late-night source-hunting seem to have downgraded me from "maven" back to "adept".
What does it all mean?

 

[Kieran]

Watch the video and you'll hear a woman describe her UFO experience in 1954. She said, the two human looking beings inside the craft had clothing and it was blue in colour. Travis Walton he too said they wore blue outfits , interesting, don't you think?

 

[Burnt State]

Sure. Fair question for how murky this is getting.
On the show, at about (1:28) an hour and twenty-eight minutes in, Gene asked Travis if he felt any hunger or thirst when he found himself back on the road in the woods. Travis says he was dehydrated and that he had "pronounced" weight loss which returned to normal within hours.* He says he's back to normal weight the next day. He goes on about comparing scales at the doctors office and about the rapidly restoring weight being due to dehydration and not starvation.
But if you listen to clips 7 and 8 of the audio Heidi posted, in clip 7 we hear a phone conversation between two newsmen and they say Travis was dropped off/recovered around 12:00am and he's now in the hospital ( we don't know how long Travis has been back in relation to this phone call; maybe a few hours.
Clip 8 is a follow up phone call with the same two newsmen the following day and Travis is still in the hospital. He'll spend the day there while the crew take their polygraph tests and it's expected he'll be released the next day and take his.
*I've noticed this as one of the inconsistencies in the story. I wonder if his narrative on the show was just sparse or if over the years his memory of the events has skewed.
Interesting link to openminds. He pretty much said as much ( his "ambulance theory") on the show, I think.
I like the added update that as polygraph technology has progressed, he has continued to take and pass these stress tests.

I'm not sure if Keel's primarily fictional hard boiled detective book has anything by way to base any conviction for much of anything on - in other words, invention. Mothman's a great rollercoaster of a read but shy on facts.

Walton, on B.O.A.'s season finale, is introduced as the superstar of UFO history. Travis describes his history as having to fend off skeptics, then having to deal with the burden of the abduction and now feels the responsibility of making something good come of his story: an awareness that these things happen and that there are good and bad cases, his being one that he sees as raising the bar on abduction cases. It's all very low key and humble in tone, in great contrast to Greer. Interestingly, his case is entirely unique in abduction lore from start to finish. No other case is like his, so I'm not too sure how his case can be used as any sort of measuring stick of any known abduction cases that match his threshold. His is the case that defines memes of alien types.

I know he emphasized the scales, his sudden rapid regaining of weight which made little sense and the lack of ketones in the urine. And yes, reporters said he was hospitalized, but was he actually hospitalized? I don't have a copy of his book to check his order of events, as he only makes a point of being examined by doctors and pseudo doctors but not in a hospital, while his brother continues to inexplicably avoid telling the authorities of his brother's sudden return to earth.

Now we know that polygraph tests mean little so it's also odd to note his repeated emphasis. As he tells his story it certainly is now one of absolute conviction.

 

[Jeremiah Dugger]

I know Gene would agree with me that Keel is regarded as a guiding light in ufology precisely because he did work so hard to actually gather Facts, get out there and interview so many people, and not just because he thought outside the box.
The amount of first person accounts to his credit is routinely downplayed and can now just be rattled off as a self-evident 'fact', it seems.
Please spend a moment and point out for me where his first rate investigatory abilities end and his paranoiac delusions begin, as I frequently hear this regurgitated, but seldom accompanied by any examples.
Also, if you could, please link for me where "we" learned that polygraphs mean so little. Must've missed it...

 

[Burnt State]

You can pretty much turn to any page in Mothman and recognize that he is confabulating the entire piece, concentrating more on mood than fact. His anonymous phone calls and MIB fantasies being a prime example of him creating constellations out of invisible black holes. Scholarship does not regard that text as factual at all. Clark of course is his biggest critic because Ckark is all about scholarship. Don't forget that Keel, a self-described Demonologist, has a belief system at work that IMHO is difficult to subscribe to. I wouldn't deny that Keel is landmark in the field, pivotal, imaginative and very influential for many. But his 'out of the box' where aliens are demons just does not work for me.

We've critiqued Keel multiple times on the forum. a search will yield some pretty good laughs and debate. Here's an older review and certainly not the most scathing but still interesting in terms of looking at Keel's sources:http://www.ignaciodarnaude.com/avistamientos_ovnis/Clark,Keel,Mothman Prophecies,FSR75V21N1.pdf

Another great look at the Point Pleasant events is Aaron Gulyas on Radio Misterioso where he does a great comparison of Keel vs. Barker's version of events. It's an excellent episode: A.J. Gulyas: Contactee-O-Rama | Radio Misterioso

Polygraphs in general do not carry weight because we know people can manipulate these easily and discussion around Walton's early polygraphs the fails that he does not reference, question control and his emphasis on the passes continue to make that a contentious feature in the narrative. This doesn't mean it didn't happen the way he said. But these simply are stand alone features like other parts of his anomalous abduction experience that has yet to be repeated.

 

[junius]

When you are a public figure, proving defamation can be difficult, unless you can show substantial harm, financially or otherwise, as the result. I have a few people I'd love to go after, of course.

Very true. This issue has recently been addressed in the UK with the new 'defamation act', you need to show to a court 'significant harm' has been caused by such offending comments or remarks...

 

[junius]

I found the interview reasonably well rounded in most regards, I am cautious of Walton making money and posing for photos in the past with cheques for 2.5k. However, how do you tell such an extraordinary story? You can sell your story to any newspaper for much much more if it involves a celebrity, so I guess why not? Is it not ethical to make money from being abducted or reporting UAP and other strange events? Who gets to set the rules on this?

 

[Burnt State]

It's not a question of ethics. It's simply a feature that can be considered as motive. And it is frequently referenced as a contentious point.

 

[SillyRaabit]

This interview was solid. Probing (no pun intended) but respectful.

 

[Jeremiah Dugger]

You can pretty much turn to any page in Mothman and recognize that he is confabulating the entire piece, concentrating more on mood than fact. His anonymous phone calls and MIB fantasies being a prime example of him creating constellations out of invisible black holes. Scholarship does not regard that text as factual at all. Clark of course is his biggest critic because Ckark is all about scholarship. Don't forget that Keel, a self-described Demonologist, has a belief system at work that IMHO is difficult to subscribe to. I wouldn't deny that Keel is landmark in the field, pivotal, imaginative and very influential for many. But his 'out of the box' where aliens are demons just does not work for me.

We've critiqued Keel multiple times on the forum. a search will yield some pretty good laughs and debate. Here's an older review and certainly not the most scathing but still interesting in terms of looking at Keel's sources:http://www.ignaciodarnaude.com/avistamientos_ovnis/Clark,Keel,Mothman Prophecies,FSR75V21N1.pdf

Another great look at the Point Pleasant events is Aaron Gulyas on Radio Misterioso where he does a great comparison of Keel vs. Barker's version of events. It's an excellent episode: A.J. Gulyas: Contactee-O-Rama | Radio Misterioso

Polygraphs in general do not carry weight because we know people can manipulate these easily and discussion around Walton's early polygraphs the fails that he does not reference, question control and his emphasis on the passes continue to make that a contentious feature in the narrative. This doesn't mean it didn't happen the way he said. But these simply are stand alone features like other parts of his anomalous abduction experience that has yet to be repeated.

Thanks for the links. I'm sure I'll enjoy them.
But the demonologist bit is not accurate. Loren Coleman started that because cryptozoologists and ufologists want nothing to do with each other and Keel had the audacity to say somebody saw Bigfoot climb out of a UFO.
You know these fields are made up of people with egos and prejudices just like any other field of contending theories; camps begin to develop and you can't just take what one type says about the other as 100% unbiased.
Along with profit, don't you think there are other motivations behind the presenting, accepting, and dismissal of evidence?
I'm actually not even of the opinion that Mothman is a straightforward account, because of course it's not, but I felt the need to stress the devil's advocate since you so glibly tossed off what are basically extreme blanket statements.
Also, I both saw and 'liked' Sentry's side by side picture chronology well before this exchange.
Please stop implying that I'm not reading what others say before I chime in. I'm not here for hit and run posts. I realize there are years and years worth of conversations here which you're caught up on and I am not, but I generally try not to speak from ignorance and I do intend to stick around for many more informative exchanges such as ours.

 

[Jeremiah Dugger]

You can pretty much turn to any page in Mothman and recognize that he is confabulating the entire piece, concentrating more on mood than fact. His anonymous phone calls and MIB fantasies being a prime example of him creating constellations out of invisible black holes. Scholarship does not regard that text as factual at all. Clark of course is his biggest critic because Ckark is all about scholarship. Don't forget that Keel, a self-described Demonologist, has a belief system at work that IMHO is difficult to subscribe to. I wouldn't deny that Keel is landmark in the field, pivotal, imaginative and very influential for many. But his 'out of the box' where aliens are demons just does not work for me.

We've critiqued Keel multiple times on the forum. a search will yield some pretty good laughs and debate. Here's an older review and certainly not the most scathing but still interesting in terms of looking at Keel's sources:http://www.ignaciodarnaude.com/avistamientos_ovnis/Clark,Keel,Mothman Prophecies,FSR75V21N1.pdf

Another great look at the Point Pleasant events is Aaron Gulyas on Radio Misterioso where he does a great comparison of Keel vs. Barker's version of events. It's an excellent episode: A.J. Gulyas: Contactee-O-Rama | Radio Misterioso

Polygraphs in general do not carry weight because we know people can manipulate these easily and discussion around Walton's early polygraphs the fails that he does not reference, question control and his emphasis on the passes continue to make that a contentious feature in the narrative. This doesn't mean it didn't happen the way he said. But these simply are stand alone features like other parts of his anomalous abduction experience that has yet to be repeated.

"His anonymous phone calls and MIB fantasies being a prime example of him creating constellations out of invisible black holes."
You mentioned Gray Barker.
He later admitted to making such calls himself.
He and Jim Moseley playfully framed them as "pranks", but they seem a lot like what we call hoaxes today.
How do you suggest I proceed with data from a ufologist who's also a confirmed hoaxer?

 

[marduk]

You know these fields are made up of people with egos and prejudices just like any other field of contending theories; camps begin to develop and you can't just take what one type says about the other as 100% unbiased.

This is what happens when Science (with a capital S) abandons the field to a bunch of mostly well-meaning but non-professionals to try to sort out on their own.

Academia has a hard enough time dealing with this kind of infighting, and this is a large piece of what the modern version of the scientific method is there to sort out.

No wonder why this area isn't making as much progress as it should.