Travis Walton - September 21, 2014

[Jimi H.]

Hmm. I don't remember issuing "oohs and ahhs" about the Walton case.
And I don't know what you mean by "exploiting other people" in reference to what I've posted...

You were in essence making a general statement about sceptics that always just pick away at every detail, as if that was neccessarily a bad thing:

Sceptics and debunkers will jump on any detail with which to undermine confidence in an impressive ufo case or abduction case.

Do I think it's a good thing if supposed sceptics are in fact malicious dogmatics, as Klaas may have been? No, I don't. For instance, the grinding down of James McDonald was tragic.

But it is just so, that the ratio of personal witness stories to confirmed (in anything resembling a scientific sense) paranormal events can be described basically like this:

Every human being in history x how many times they've been spooked in the dark or told a deliberate lie : Zero

Does this mean that by definition nothing 'paranormal' has or will ever happen? No, but I think it's safe to say that statistical information suggests that it's prudent to come to a claimed story, especially one that doesn't bring some kind of documentation (besides a small group's witness testimony), from a very sceptical point of view.

 

[Jimi H.]

I'm not sure what to make of the money thing. If something happened to me on that scale and I wanted to write about it, is that wrong? ..

I think it's kinda odd he didn't mind his story being fictionalized and 'pimped'. If he was just someone out to enlighten everyone, isn't it odd that he preferred a fictionalized Hollywood version? Couldn't he have sought to make a sober lower budget documentary, if he just wanted the story out? Why would he choose the Hollywood deal instead?

..Where I think I draw my own personal line is to what degree is this person accessible to the public and on what terms.

It seems he evaded the Paracast for a long while, but he was greeted mostly with enthusiasm, so he needn't have feared.

...
Now on the flip, there has been a lot of people who wanted to make money off Mr. Walton's story. Movie industry, book writing, convention organizers. Every book that features a reference to Mr. Walton has him to thank but I'm sure there's no money coming his way...

But that's how the new network economy works. Every 'link' in every Paranormal media that mentions his case brings interest. That's why he's both in Eastern Europe and speaking for a popstar in the Hills.

Obviously, whether the story is true or not, is all that matters. Money is simply one possible motive in that equation, and it's mostly interesting because the case is so lacking of evidence/documentation. Iow., speculation is all we have, unless you count the lie detector tests, thus I don't quite get the prominence of the case?

I can't see any reason why people should not pay for an author's research, but that's different. As far as I can tell, Walton is not researching anything, he's claiming something.

 

[Jimi H.]

..One thing I've always wondered, what would I be like, my reaction...if I felt I'd been abducted? I think, honestly, I wouldn't say anything.

But why would you think you were abducted?

I'm not being contentious, it is an important question, because, I think that when people spend a lot of time with these issues, their thinking becomes very affected by it. That's why cultural aspects are so important.

For instance, I have a friend who experiences brief sleep paralyzation. Since he's not a UFO buff, he never interpreted it as 'abduction' though he says it's extremely unpleasant, and that you have this sense that someting is moving in the corner of the eye. Perhaps since he's a biologist by trade, he interprets this corner of the eye-thing as primal fear, fear on a fundamental level that arises when you feel you can't escape a potential threat in your near surroundings.

..
But would I start freaking out at night, get insomnia, world view change, family change. Depressed?

You would only do this if you were not educated enough to know about psychological aspects, and if you were afraid to go to a doctor.
Speculating like this only helps myth making imo., because you could speculate about how you'd react to the craziest things, and get a stew broiling, because people assume that when there's smoke, there's fire. Like the Chupacabra story, for instance.

..
Kathleen Marden's book shares some stories that talk about that.

I don't trust Marden.

Didn't some recent Paracast guest mention that she seemed to have some shady connections?

..
Anyways, I can't know for sure on Mr. Waltons story but nothing pops out for now as an obvious hoax, thus my previous posts on Klass the ass. ..

I agree with this, and if we can't trust what Klaas said, that doesn't make it one bit easier to reach a conclusion.

 

[Jeremiah Dugger]

I think it's kinda odd he didn't mind his story being fictionalized and 'pimped'. If he was just someone out to enlighten everyone, isn't it odd that he preferred a fictionalized Hollywood version? Couldn't he have sought to make a sober lower budget documentary, if he just wanted the story out? Why would he choose the Hollywood deal instead?


It seems he evaded the Paracast for a long while, but he was greeted mostly with enthusiasm, so he needn't have feared.


But that's how the new network economy works. Every 'link' in every Paranormal media that mentions his case brings interest. That's why he's both in Eastern Europe and speaking for a popstar in the Hills.

Obviously, whether the story is true or not, is all that matters. Money is simply one possible motive in that equation, and it's mostly interesting because the case is so lacking of evidence/documentation. Iow., speculation is all we have, unless you count the lie detector tests, thus I don't quite get the prominence of the case?

I can't see any reason why people should not pay for an author's research, but that's different. As far as I can tell, Walton is not researching anything, he's claiming something.

"Obviously, whether the story is true or not, is all that matters. Money is simply one possible motive in that equation, and it's mostly interesting because the case is so lacking of evidence/documentation."
I agree with you on all counts, except the above quote: I think what makes this case stand out is that if it is a hoax, more effort than usual seems to have gone into it.
For example, the 5 days spent in isolation, wherever he passed the time, it's longer than anybody else seems to have dedicated to a ruse of this sort.
Also the hospitalization for severe dehydration, that shows an above average level of commitment to the telling of a lie.
And then there's the measure of the hoax once it's done: did it work? Or was it a colossal failure? On the one hand, nobody seems to have made much money from it, aside from D.B. Sweeney perhaps. But on the other hand, 1975 was a long time ago ( by some folks' reckoning) and yet we're still not certain if it was or wasn't real. This case is truly unique, whether it was an abduction or an artful confection.
Wouldn't you think the claim 'I left the planet for 5 days in front of 6 other loggers' would be easier to conclusively disprove?

 

[Jimi H.]

..

No publicity seeking below obviously . I don't see much emotional trauma in those faces either.

..

Just a reminder..

If they were not sure what to do in life, this (naively, perhaps) seemed like a viable avenue at the time?

 

[Jimi H.]

..
Also the hospitalization for severe dehydration, that shows an above average level of commitment to the telling of a lie...

Yea, I agree, they would have gone to some effort, so that's why it becomes interesting with their situation at work. In that light I guess the dehydration thing does speak in the favor of Walton's story.

Otoh., there are many reasons as to why he could have become dehydrated. Perhaps they got shitfaced and Walton wandered off somewhere and was in actual jeopardy? Though, I'd imagine he'd have access to water if he got lost somewhere, since it's not in the desert part of Arizona. Unless he got stuck in some dry ravine or something, perhaps he got stuck for several days before making some desperate escape to get water and food? Such occurences are not unheard of.
However, if they capitalized on true misfortune, and helped a situation at work, they would have had to spoken about it together, before being questioned by third parties. I don't know if that could fit the timeline, perhaps not? Oh, yes, it does, because he was picked up by one of his coworkers, right?

All just speculation, in the end I guess it speaks for Walton, yes. But there are a few possible explanations.

..
Wouldn't you think the claim 'I left the planet for 5 days in front of 6 other loggers' would be easier to conclusively disprove?

Yea, I mean, if the U.S. hadn't gone to the moon, wouldn't the Russians have noticed the missing object on their radar? I guess that the silence on their part implies that the mil didn't see Walton's host craft on the radar?

It's a pity they didn't keep the clothes, in fact they didn't give the past much to work with. No burnt pine needles either, it seems.

 

[Jeremiah Dugger]

Yea, I agree, they would have gone to some effort, so that's why it becomes interesting with their situation at work.

But the dehydration thing does indeed speak in the favor of Walton's story. Otoh., there are many reasons as to why he could have become dehydrated. Perhaps they got shitfaced and Walton wandered off somewhere and was in actual jeopardy? Though, I'd imagine he'd have access to water if he got lost somewhere, since it's not in the desert part of Arizona. Unless he got stuck in some dry ravine or something, perhaps he got stuck for several days before making some desperate escape to get water and food. Such occurences are not unheard of.


Yea, I mean, if the U.S. hadn't gone to the moon, wouldn't the Russians have noticed the missing object on their radar? I guess that the silence on their part implies that the mil didn't see Walton's host craft on the radar?

It's a pity they didn't keep the clothes, in fact they didn't give the past much to work with. No burnt pine needles either, it seems.

I hear what you're saying about the moon, visa vi the absence of evidence not being evidence itself. But the pine needle thing is just silly. That was just the town sherif applying routine crime scene questions to something clearly not routine, and was then expounded upon by Klass who, while not believing in aliens then proceeds to speculate on what their blue beams would/ should do to our pine needles. ... Ok... But here's the real rub. You just touched on it and I thought it odd myself when they mentioned if repeatedly in the audio clips Heidi was good enough to post: Alcohol. They made a point to repeatedly denounce the use of alcohol. 7 loggers and not a drop? What are these guys, Mormons?

 

[Jimi H.]

..They made a point to repeatedly denounce the use of alcohol. 7 loggers and not a drop? What are these guys, Mormons?

Haha, sounds unlikely, yea. Perhaps alcohol was not permitted? I think that part of Arizona is mostly Catholic though.

I didn't hear him make any references to God or scripture, so he doesn't flaunt it if that's the case. But he seems to believe that the aliens were 'good' and wanted to save him, in the more literal sense.

 

[Jeremiah Dugger]

Haha, sounds unlikely, yea. Perhaps alcohol was not permitted? I think that part of Arizona is mostly Catholic though.

I didn't hear him make any references to God or scripture, so he doesn't flaunt it if that's the case. But he seems to believe that the aliens were 'good' and wanted to save him, in the more literal sense.

I actually see that as one of the inconsistencies in this story. In the show he described them as docile, making hand gestures in an attempt to put him at ease and even stoping in their tracks and leaving him alone in the chamber when he made threatening/panicked/ defensive hand gestures of his own.
But in the audio, from 1975, his brother (in-law?) says Travis used the word "cruel" when describing the beings. Puzzling.

 

[Jeremiah Dugger]

Of course, his memory only accounts for 1 out of approximately 120 hours allegedly spent 'up there'.
I don't consider memory recalled through hypnosis as completely reliable. So I don't mind that Travis hasn't attempted further hypnotic regression.
However, patients refusing to continue hypnotic regression after uncovering,, 'unpleasant' memories is not uncommon. So in this case, similarly to how he avoided the press from the beginning, his choice not to dig deeper for fear of what else he might remember sort of rings true with other instances of genuine trauma.

 

[Heidi Lemmer]

But why would you think you were abducted?

I'm not being contentious, it is an important question, because, I think that when people spend a lot of time with these issues, their thinking becomes very affected by it. That's why cultural aspects are so important.

For instance, I have a friend who experiences brief sleep paralyzation. Since he's not a UFO buff, he never interpreted it as 'abduction' though he says it's extremely unpleasant, and that you have this sense that someting is moving in the corner of the eye. Perhaps since he's a biologist by trade, he interprets this corner of the eye-thing as primal fear, fear on a fundamental level that arises when you feel you can't escape a potential threat in your near surroundings.


You would only do this if you were not educated enough to know about psychological aspects, and if you were afraid to go to a doctor.
Speculating like this only helps myth making imo., because you could speculate about how you'd react to the craziest things, and get a stew broiling, because people assume that when there's smoke, there's fire. Like the Chupacabra story, for instance.


I don't trust Marden.

Didn't some recent Paracast guest mention that she seemed to have some shady connections?


I agree with this, and if we can't trust what Klaas said, that doesn't make it one bit easier to reach a conclusion.

People claim abduction and state they've never been into this subject. I'm not an expert on the abduction part but I've read both types of cases.
Also, to be clear, just in case we misunderstand, I've never been abducted. I have had sleep paralysis though. A really bad case of it when I worked two jobs and was sleep deprived. I also saw someone stand over me, heard the person come into the house but also realized the dog did not bark. So I was able to reason myself out of the panic several times. I can see where some cases come extremely close to this description.
I'd be interested to know what has been said about Kathleen Marden. There's dispute on her abduction survey, fair enough.
My arguement to speculation is that sometimes that's all you have left until another corner is turned. It's human nature to speculate. It expands our ability to envision what the problem is in order to get to the solution. We see lights in the sky, we rule out the known, we speculate what it could be and look for patterns. Matching that mind set with someone like Klass doesn't work. He would have had anyone interested go back to their morning cheerios. He sought to provide quick solutions to odd occurrences.
Here's speculation hard at work http://www.collective-evolution.com/201
NASA Brings Scientists & Theologians Together To Prepare World For Extraterrestrial Contact

 

[Christopher O'Brien]

...Alcohol. They made a point to repeatedly denounce the use of alcohol. 7 loggers and not a drop? What are these guys, Mormons?

Actually, I would bet most of them were Mormans. Snowflake where Travis lived is almost exclusively a Morman town. As to Jimi's observation about the event proximity to where he "woke up" and "dropped off" in Heber, the distance is about a 20 mile hike through some fairly rough terrain.

 

[Christopher O'Brien]

...patients refusing to continue hypnotic regression after uncovering,, 'unpleasant' memories is not uncommon. So in this case, similarly to how he avoided the press from the beginning, his choice not to dig deeper for fear of what else he might remember sort of rings true with other instances of genuine trauma.

I have turned down all suggestions that I undergo hypnotic regression to uncover more details of my visitation experience as a 6-7 year-old in Bellevue, WA. I've been OK w/ the experience for almost 50 years, so why rock my particular emotional boat?

 

[Christopher O'Brien]

NASA Brings Scientists & Theologians Together To Prepare World For Extraterrestrial Contact

I started a thread about this several days ago...

 

[Jeremiah Dugger]

I started a thread about this several days ago...

The link above took me to an article about mumps vaccines. ? Is it suppose to?

 

[Heidi Lemmer]

hmm, trying to post link, not working. Go to mumps story and hit News, that will get story.

 

[Gene Steinberg]

No good. It's not a proper URL. It's a prefix and a title.

 

[wwkirk]

Here you go:
NASA Brings Scientists & Theologians Together To Prepare World For Extraterrestrial Contact

 

[Jeremiah Dugger]

That's very interesting, Jeremiah. Can you provide a link where I can read more about this?

Finally found where I got that from:
"The UFO phenomenon itself is only one trivial fragment of a much larger phenomenon. It can be divided into two main parts. The first and most important part consists of the mysterious aerial lights which appear to have an intelligence of their own. They have been observed throughout history. Often they project powerful searchlight-like beams toward the ground. Persons caught in these beams undergo remarkable changes of personality. Their IQ skyrockets, they change their jobs, divorce their wives, and in any number of well-documented instances they suddenly rise above their previously mediocre lives and become outstanding statesmen, scientists, poets, and writers, even soldiers...."
I've been listening to hours and hours of old Paracast episodes trying to track down where I got this notion. When that failed, I started skimming through all sorts of books on my shelf. Dr. John Mack, nope. Colin Wilson, nope. C.G. Jung, nope. Vallee, Redfern, Friedman, Streiber even??? Nope. Last place I looked should have been the first: John A. Keel - "The Mothman Prophecies". See the chapter called Take the Train. ... I need a better memory

 

[Burnt State]

I think I was wrong about there being no shift in Tracis' story as here we see him in a very low key but highly produced video expressing his role as reluctant philosopher with a message to humanity. I think it will be interesting to watch that aspect unfold over time. I'm also interested in the addition of the two crew mates on stage and how often they will take on that role. Also, Mike Rogers, the one with the original logging contract and driving the vehicle away from the UFO, is also the webmaster of the main Walton site.

Travis Walton reveals new theory on Fire in the Sky Abduction - Openminds.tv

Question: can someone please point to exactly where in the timeline that Travis is hospitalized for dehydration? I see examinations by doctors and the urine test that surprisingly established no ketones despite a five day absence but seem to keep missing the part where he gets hospitalized.