Travis Walton - September 21, 2014

[Randall]

Don't get me wrong. I'm not Fox Moulder. I do NOT want to believe. I Need to know.

I believe you, and BTW, if nobody else has welcomed you to the forum yet, allow me to be the first! I hope you have many illuminating exchanges here . Lately I seem to have taken on the role of the resident skeptic, but I am actually a believer in alien visitation based on my ufology studies and personal experience.

 

[manxman]

Some people will say anything required of them if the 'reward/pay off' is enough, and very convincingly at that.

President's to prime ministers do it everyday, and so do all the nodding donkeys around them, the public are suckers, and he has done ok out of life, for a wood-cutter with a whopper of a story.

 

[Jeremiah Dugger]

I believe you, and BTW, if nobody else has welcomed you to the forum yet, allow me to be the first! I hope you have many illuminating exchanges here . Lately I seem to have taken on the role of the resident skeptic, but I am actually a believer in alien visitation based on my ufology studies and personal experience.

Thanks! Happy to be here and always happy to bear the skeptical burden. It's a necessary 'ballpark' within which to operate.

 

[Burnt State]

What would make it so hard to simply not say something? I don't see the problem.

Seriously? I think that point is pretty thin. People want minor fame or cash and we can see historically that there's been no big giant cash payout to any single individual because they have nothing to sell. If any felt they had something to sell, given that Travis has the fame and whatever $$$ go along with it then surely a conspirator would have taken a big grab a long time ago, or someone would have told someone and again there's just no evidence of this. Of course in a group hoax you don't need a helicopter.

If co-ordinated by a few of them then there's a fourth - the rented pilot, and are they also getting some sort of continuous cut of the winnings? No, these things stretch possibility too much for me. Would they dare concoct such an incredibly elaborate hoax when the flip side would be a second criminal charge for Walton? You need to sell the group theory with some better proof, which would then be consistent with no evidence on the scene. But the whole team of them as great actors in exchange for what, those cheques for 500 odd dollars? I don't see it.

If a smaller hoax team, which is more likely, then the special effects need better explanation. How good a view of the events did they have in the back of the truck anyway?

 

[Randall]

Seriously? I think that point is pretty thin.

It doesn't have to be any more substantial than not wanting to admit guilt. Adding in all these other motivations may have very little to do with it.

 

[Heidi Lemmer]

So ok, here's some info to consider:

One of the co-workers led the search party to the spot of the sighting and passed out several times.
Another co-worker cried uncontrollably, according to the sheriff and brother
Travis was offered $5000.00 and declined it.
Travis wrote his own book several years after the event.
The brother and Travis walked out of a Dr.'s visit when they realized the guy was not legit.
Travis has never extended his story to include more UFO visits for potential profit.
Phil Klass tried to bribe one of the co-workers to admit he was lying/hoaxing for 10,000.00 and he declined.
Travis has never claimed "more memory" from the event, which could have been more books, more conferences, a foundation, hell who knows, lol.
None of the men had ever dealt with media, book writers, researchers, radio before this event.
When the brother was asked if they were UFO buffs and he replied, no....he later didn't know who Allen Hyneck was
On Wikii it states the mother had to be told the story twice (sounds more reasonable than the indifferent reaction claimed)
Travis continued working in the same town at a lumber mill, married , had kids....very unprofitable!

 

[AlienEsq]

Travis wrote his own book several years after the event.

All great points. For me, this one in particular stands out. Travis never wrote any follow-up books as either "new information" or expansions to his original story. His story is very "take it or leave it."

Do we know why Phil Klass has spent so much time, energy, and apparently money to debunk this story?

 

[mike]

And heres the thing, if we give him the benefit of doubt as i think this case deserves, its rich in data about ETs here on earth

 

[Heidi Lemmer]

All great points. For me, this one in particular stands out. Travis never wrote any follow-up books as either "new information" or expansions to his original story. His story is very "take it or leave it."

Do we know why Phil Klass has spent so much time, energy, and apparently money to debunk this story?

That's an issue I'd like to dig into this next week. We've all complained about the quacks like Greer and how they've poisoned the water well, but I'm starting to notice, by going back to original sources, that we did have good reports and even, for that time, good researchers but over time it was systematically poisoned. I'm not sure if Klass was a media creation, a government creation or just a whack job that knew the right buttons to push. He was called in on many talk shows as the opposing view. There's a group of them I think, Oberg, Shaeffer, Klass....not sure who else.

 

[Jeremiah Dugger]

That's an issue I'd like to dig into this next week. We've all complained about the quacks like Greer and how they've poisoned the water well, but I'm starting to notice, by going back to original sources, that we did have good reports and even, for that time, good researchers but over time it was systematically poisoned. I'm not sure if Klass was a media creation, a government creation or just a whack job that knew the right buttons to push. He was called in on many talk shows as the opposing view. There's a group of them I think, Oberg, Shaeffer, Klass....not sure who else.

Here are a few I'm suspicious of: (forgive me if some seem obvious and please let me know if you disagree with any. And in some cases I think the individual is/was sincere but mistaken, while others strike me as deceptive)
Edward Condon. Budd Hopkins. Carol Rainey. Jerome Clark. Whitley Streiber. Steven Greer (duh). Ray Santilli. Fred Crisman. Harold Dahl. Joe Rudy. Chris Russo. Col. Philip J. Corso. John Lear. The trolls from 3rd Phase. Richard Hoagland. Mike Barra. David Wilcock. Andrew Basiago. Project Camelot. Richard Doty. Seth Shostack. Zechariah Sitchin. Erik Von yadayadayada. George Adamski. And of course, the one armed man. Also, Donald Menzel. Frank Scully. Linda Moulton Howe. James Carrion. Bob Lazar. Bill Cooper.... There are more, but I'll bet that's plenty to get some arguments headed my way already. (And again, some of these are people I consider swindlers or agents of disinformation, but others are people I really respect and just happen to disagree with.
( I also have a long list of folks I just don't know what to think of. And a pretty short list of people I'm confident are honest about what they say, and possibly even correct! )

 

[manxman]

Oberg Windley Dunning Kurtz Nickell Randi Plait Sagan.

 

[Heidi Lemmer]

Here are a few I'm suspicious of: (forgive me if some seem obvious and please let me know if you disagree with any. And in some cases I think the individual is/was sincere but mistaken, while others strike me as deceptive)
Edward Condon. Budd Hopkins. Carol Rainey. Jerome Clark. Whitley Streiber. Steven Greer (duh). Ray Santilli. Fred Crisman. Harold Dahl. Joe Rudy. Chris Russo. Col. Philip J. Corso. John Lear. The trolls from 3rd Phase. Richard Hoagland. Mike Barra. David Wilcock. Andrew Basiago. Project Camelot. Richard Doty. Seth Shostack. Zechariah Sitchin. Erik Von yadayadayada. George Adamski. And of course, the one armed man. Also, Donald Menzel. Frank Scully. Linda Moulton Howe. James Carrion. Bob Lazar. Bill Cooper.... There are more, but I'll bet that's plenty to get some arguments headed my way already. (And again, some of these are people I consider swindlers or agents of disinformation, but others are people I really respect and just happen to disagree with.
( I also have a long list of folks I just don't know what to think of. And a pretty short list of people I'm confident are honest about what they say, and possibly even correct! )

Dang, kinda scary to see them all in one paragraph!!! There's a couple here I need to learn about, Harold Dahl and Donald Menzel. And I need to search up on everyone's take on Hopkins. I've seen several video's with him and liked what he had to say but that's it. But he's shredded all over so I have to check it out.
Curious what your take is on David Rudiak. Been watching him on Randal's site and really like how he's connected dots on some things. But he's crapped on a lot over there and I'm assuming that it's because he takes a definitive stance on Roswell and leans on the Zamorra case.

 

[manxman]

Been watching him on Randal's site and really like how he's connected dots on some things. But he's crapped on a lot over there and I'm assuming that it's because he takes a definitive stance on Roswell and leans on the Zamorra case.

i didnt know Randal had a forum.

 

[Jeremiah Dugger]

I should say my mentioning Budd Hopkins is actually more a statement about hypnosis. I think it's great for unlearning things like smoking and highly questionable for things like lost memory recall.

 

[wwkirk]

Here are a few I'm suspicious of: (forgive me if some seem obvious and please let me know if you disagree with any. And in some cases I think the individual is/was sincere but mistaken, while others strike me as deceptive)
Edward Condon. Budd Hopkins. Carol Rainey. Jerome Clark. Whitley Streiber. Steven Greer (duh). Ray Santilli. Fred Crisman. Harold Dahl. Joe Rudy. Chris Russo. Col. Philip J. Corso. John Lear. The trolls from 3rd Phase. Richard Hoagland. Mike Barra. David Wilcock. Andrew Basiago. Project Camelot. Richard Doty. Seth Shostack. Zechariah Sitchin. Erik Von yadayadayada. George Adamski. And of course, the one armed man. Also, Donald Menzel. Frank Scully. Linda Moulton Howe. James Carrion. Bob Lazar. Bill Cooper.... There are more, but I'll bet that's plenty to get some arguments headed my way already. (And again, some of these are people I consider swindlers or agents of disinformation, but others are people I really respect and just happen to disagree with.
( I also have a long list of folks I just don't know what to think of. And a pretty short list of people I'm confident are honest about what they say, and possibly even correct! )

I don't know why you've included Jerome Clark. He strikes me as a solid researcher.

 

[Heidi Lemmer]

Been watching him on Randal's site and really like how he's connected dots on some things. But he's crapped on a lot over there and I'm assuming that it's because he takes a definitive stance on Roswell and leans on the Zamorra case.

i didnt know Randal had a forum.

A Different Perspective

 

[Jeremiah Dugger]

I don't know why you've included Jerome Clark. He strikes me as a solid researcher.

Good eye. I have to admit some bias on that one. I consider myself a Fortean and an admirer of John Keel. Clark made some remarks during the Keel tribute episode which left a bad taste in my mouth. Aside from that, I'm really not as familiar with him as I should be to include him in such a list. Yet.

 

[Heidi Lemmer]

Not to derail the conversation but I searched real quick on Dahl and realized he was part of the Maury Island story and then read this:

On the 1st of August, two Army Air Corps Officers, 1st Lt. Frank M. Brown and Capt. William L. Davidson, who had been sent to investigate the incident, were killed when their B-25 carrying the photographs and some of the alleged UFO residue mysteriously crashed.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?

On the 3rd of August Kenneth Arnold's airplane was sabotaged, and he narrowly escaped being killed in a crash. 13

Paul Lance, the Tacoma Times reporter, died in "...two weeks ... and the cause of his death was not clear...he lay on a slab in the morgue for about thirty-six hours while the pathologists apparently hemmed and hawed." 14

A short time later, Ted Morello, The United Press stringer at Tacoma, also died. 15

Ray Palmer, Editor of eight Ziff Davis Publications, and who had increased circulation of Amazing Stories from 80,000 to 130,000 and initiated the Maury Island investigation was fired. 16

The Tacoma Times, a newspaper in business over 40 years went out of business. 17

If all this is true it's really trippy considering I've only read about the original plane crash which gets quickly dismissed as an accident. But when coupled with these events starts seeming less so.
Before Roswell (Maury Island) - UFO Evidence

 

[Jeremiah Dugger]

I agree. There are some who say Arnold's plane having the gas cap left open so his fuel would freeze mid-flight was an honest mistake. But in the fuller context of associated events it seems creepy. It's also one of the reasons I tend to trust Arnold, whereas I don't know what to think about Palmer and I flat out don't trust Fred Crisman. Dahl went on to do/ say some questionable stuff in the years to follow Maury Island.

 

[Jimi H.]

Sceptics and debunkers will jump on any detail with which to undermine confidence in an impressive ufo case or abduction case. ....

Yea, well, you seem to want to believe quite badly, so it must go both ways.

People who deliberatly pull hoaxes should be treated like what they are, scoundrels. It's uncool when people who are potentially scoundrels get oohs and ahhs from believers. So, imo please wait with the uhhs and ahhs until we have some factual information. It certainly seems best to me, to avoid some people exploiting other people, and not least to avoid reaching un-truths with extremely far reaching implications.