UFO Skeptic Robert Sheaffer

[Bananas]

You're so wrong that it's not even funny anymore... Sigh... where to begin...

I tried, I really did, but there is litereally nothing I could possibly write here that would make a dent in those blinders of yours, so instead I'll just say this.

Google "Hypocrisy of feminism" and spend an evening reading. You'll see hundreds of thousands of articles explaining *why* modern Feminism is an aberration. Mind you, you're going to have to be a bit selective in what you bother reading due to all the nonsense written by the extremes of both side.


On a personal note, I make no distinction in how I engage or treat men and women. However, to pretend like there are no discernable differences between the sexes is ridiculous. There is a reason men and women don't compete with eachother in athletic sports. There are multiple psychological differences as well, and saying it's all "societal" is retarded.

 

[Ufocurious]

Google "Hypocrisy of feminism" and spend an evening reading. You'll see hundreds of thousands of articles explaining *why* modern Feminism is an aberration.

I tried, and most of the sites are not trustworthy.
Try this:
Read Charlotte Perkins' The Yellow Wallpaper
Check the origins of the word Hysteria
Read Virginia Wolf

You will have a better view of women's life used to be: NO CHOICE
Feminism is about giving women the choice to become the full human being they desire without having a society telling them what to do and how to behave.
You are young and come from an advanced society. Maybe you cannot envision what life used to be for older generations.
My mom lived through the 70s in brazil the struggles American women had in the late 50s & 60s. Women in arab countries go through it today. Until recently women in Saudi Arabia could not drive.
Women in Africa and in the poor agricultural areas of Brazil have to deal with men who go away to work in cities, and come back just in time to impregnate them again. women have to do all the work to feed themselves and their kids. And if they complain, they are beaten.
Once I was in the town of Carneiros, AL, Brazil and saw this girl who could not be older than 25. She had 6 children. The whole town had almost no men. I was told they were in other states harvesting sugarcane.
Feminism did help this women. Now, in Brazil, when families are given social housing, the property stays in the name of the women. Years ago, the law would forcibly put in the man's name. Later, in the couple's name. But today, we give it to women, because they are the ones that in most case stay to raise the kids.
Life is very different when we step out of our comfort zones. Me, in my middle class lifestyle in Brazil. You, in a Scandinavian country. We are not good candidates to judge much

 

[Burnt State]

You're so wrong that it's not even funny anymore... Sigh... where to begin...

"Hypocrisy of feminism"? I see the brainwashing has been deep. The only hypocrisy here is that of men who don't recognize their own privilege at work. Perhaps you were never educated not to rape women; few men have. So since I've done my research decades ago (after being confused by all the women who were sharing their stories of sexual assault with me) I'll suggest that you in turn stop reading all that feminist bashing male rhetoric, and side with your sister, mother, grandmother, aunt and daughter; because, they are routinely the victims of sexual assault & a violence perpetuated on them by their ex-partners and husbands to a degree that often has mortal consequences, unlike domestic assault initiated by women.

Check out the tv, magazine ads, the ads on the paracast, video games or internet pornography: this material portrays women as submissive, sexually available and in need of a good beating. Men, on the other hand, are often portrayed as violent, well endowed, machine, muscle heads. Now this is the narrative of our lives since a time before women fought for the vote or to escape their position as male property. To escape this pathetic narrative I encourage all men and women to leave behind the pathos of feminism as male bashing, and celebrate the alternative. "No means no!" And isn't "yes means yes" a much more pleasing place to be as a male?

While I understand what led you to the position of endorsing the male rhetoric of the likes of Shaeffer, still I'd like to offer an alternative that embraces the rejection of the need to be in control. Surrendering power is a good place to be and creates spaces of safety for all the women in your life.

When you walk home late at night from the bar or visiting with your mom maybe, the last thing you are robably thinking about is getting raped. But you know what, the women in your life do think about such things when walking home late at night- they have to for the sake of their survival. If you can't recognize your privilege and the complcations of the lived realities of women then this conversation is over.

 

[Bananas]

Nice hyperbole there. I don't endorse anything, and every single one of your personal attacks are laughably off-mark. I even said that you have to ignore a lot of the junk to get to the actual point, but I guess you were too busy hammering your keyboard to read that far, eh? My point was, that the Feminist movement has been hijacked but I guess you were too busy to realzie that as well.

Let's start, shall we? I was raised by a strong, single mother of 3, no strong male "role model" to begin with and once she got remarried, he didn't even try to take the "father figure" role. To me, he was a guy that was with my mom. So, in essence, I was raised by my mom alone.My brothers were much too old to care.

I find most porn extremely disgusting and un-appealing, especially the Asian ones. 9 times out of 10 I get turned OFF by porn because I find nothing appealing about the majority of it, which would be rape if they weren't acting. Sorry to burst your bubble there. On a personal level, not once has anyone had to say "no" twice. I don't ask, push nor get upset.

I don't buy women drinks, and I also don't expect them to cook. Buy your own drinks, I can cook just fine. (to put my personal feelings about equality into a paragraph)

EDIT: I do find it incredibly fascinating how people form an entire narrative and psychological profile based on NOTHING.

 

[Burnt State]

If you feel particularly targeted that's your business. I'm just responding to your words, their meanings and implications for society in general. I'm glad you had a strong upbringing-why not respond in kind by celebrating feminism instead of supporting sexist positions? You continue to psycho-analyse yourself. It's healthy. Recognizing male privilege is just around the corner. I'll get back to the business at hand.

 

[manxman]

Ive always been of the opinion that it's a woman's right, to binge drink if she want's to.
They have laughed for to long at drunk men talking bollock's.
It's more fun watching 2 drink fueled 'ladies' yanking handful's of hair out of each other's head at a taxi rank. than aruing with some other drunk dickhead..

 

[Bananas]

If you feel particularly targeted that's your business. I'm just responding to your words, their meanings and implications for society in general. I'm glad you had a strong upbringing-why not respond in kind by celebrating feminism instead of supporting sexist positions? You continue to psycho-analyse yourself. It's healthy. Recognizing male privilege is just around the corner. I'll get back to the business at hand.

Nono, I'm not saying that. I just always find it fascinating how people form these entire narratives.

I have never supported a sexist position. Being against Feminism does not mean Im for sexism, that's not how it works. Just like being Atheist doens't mean I'm against people with religious beliefs. In fact, I think a matriarchal social structure would work better for the human reace, we've made a mess of it all long enough. That however does not mean I support putting *either* sex on a pedestal. We're both dysfunctional in our own ways, and neither is "better" than the other.

 

[Burnt State]

fem·i·nism noun \ˈfe-mə-ˌni-zəm\
: the belief that men and women should have equal rights and opportunities

: organized activity in support of women's rights and interests

Full Definition of FEMINISM

1
: the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes
2
: organized activity on behalf of women's rights and interests
— fem·i·nist noun or adjective
— fem·i·nis·tic adjective

That's Merriam-Webster - don't see any pedestals around here. Are you sure we're talking about the same topic? Why do you see Femenism as elevating one sex over the other, or defining one as better than the other? Where do these ideas come from.

Yes, a matriarchy would be a much more generous & compassionate space, like a nice Zen restaurant that serves very filling portions, but that's just my view from the field. We could both be less dysfunctional, less constrained and more free inside a society more open to exploring gender beyond the simple stereotypical binaries that are currently imposed upon the masses. That would make everyone better in their own way, as per their discovered desire and free choice.

 

[Bananas]

I wonder, did you actually pay attention to anything I said, or did you just get angry and forget what you read?

I specifically said that Feminism has been hijacked by an anti-masculine movement and is no longer about equality, but rather bashing and hating. Funnily enough, mainly consisting of unattractive women and physically and mentally weak men, which just makes it all scream "I got rejected and I'm taking revenge" or "Women just laugh at me".

And before you come up with more colourful hyperbole, I'm a tiny guy.

 

[Randall]

I think I not only expressed admiration of your own capacity for being multi-lingual @Bananas , but even celebrated the particular skill set and for what it brings to the forum as we have many here who translate themselves into English for the enrichment of us monolinguals.

But "fuck-all" in relation to feminism translates pretty clearly to me and betrays your own international lack of appreciating the many benefits feminism offers all cultures. Feminism today has expanded its vision to include more than just white middle class women but all women and men as well. So rejoice and make merry that you too can be a feminist and help us all become more civilized.

Feminism is a personal choice, not something to be condemned. It only offers a healthier society in terms of family, relationships, communities and sex. So get on board, brother.

I tend to have a problem when it comes to politics and "isms" because as well intentioned as these movements are, there is always some radical minority embedded in them that causes the rest to get painted with the same brush. Remember the phrase feminazi ? After you've met a few your impression of feminism can become a little colored. Imagine how you might feel about "masculinism". On the surface everything looks fine. Equality is good right?

But there's always an implied superiority in every "ism", or at the very least some sort of slant or spin. Let's face the reality. Men want certain rights just because they're men and women want certain rights just because they're women, but the hypocritical thing is that neither claims they want their rights to be based on their gender .

Why should equality be gender based in the first place? Why not simply Egalitarianism? Although there we go with the "ism" again. Maybe there are cases when treating everyone the same isn't such a great idea. Maybe some people like to be treated differently because they are unique and have skills and attributes that make them better suited for some situations than other people.

 

[Bananas]

I don't adhere to any "isms" either, nor any political leanings mind you. Simply because, when you subscribe to an ideology, your mind loses flexibility and you tend to let stupidity and nonsense slide because you want to belong to a group of people that adhere to the same ideology as you do. If you reject something purely because it goes against something within your ideology, you've turned into a fanatic.

 

[Burnt State]

Well I adhere to a lot of "isms" because without coining phrases like racism, feminism or abelism there would be no way for people who are oppressed because of their identity to achieve an equal status. Those in positions of privilege, because of their gender, race or able bodied fortune, may be blind to the marginalization and discrimination of others. But everyone understands why we need these parking spaces:

so try to extrapolate and think about what are the other necessities we need to end sexism and racism?

As far as this notion of "feminist male-bashing" or use of the term "feminazi" you can see the fear of men unable to surrender their power in such erroneous statements. And while I've read some radical feminist positions that decry all acts of heterosexual sex are acts of rape, I recognize that as an extreme response to the fact that we don't educate men not to rape. The consequences of this lack of education have an enormous impact on our teenage girls, a cohort that is one of the most likely to be sexually assaulted, and even on our grandmothers who are sexually assaulted at rates that stupefy most thinking people. So in short, I have no clue as to what reality you two participate in but it's not the one I live in.

For example:

The Power of #YesAllWomen - The New Yorker
#YesAllWomen because ‘I have a boyfriend’ is more effective than ‘I’m not interested’—men respect other men more than my right to say no

Because I’ve already rehearsed “Take whatever you want, just don’t hurt me.” #YesAllWomen

#YesAllWomen because every time I try to say that I want gender equality I have to explain that I don’t hate men.

Men’s greatest fear is that women will laugh at them, while women’s greatest fear is that men will kill them. -Margaret Atwood #YesAllWomen

Because in about 30 states, rapists whose victims choose to keep the baby can get parental rights, like weekend visitation. WTF #YesAllWomen

#yesallwomen because apparently the clothes I wear is a more valid form of consent than the words I say

I repeat: the fact that there are male victims isn’t proof it’s not misogyny. It’s evidence that misogyny hurts men too. #YesAllWomen

For those unfamiliar with this recent movement you can read about it here:YesAllWomen - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It was a direct response to this event: 2014 Isla Vista killings - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Before driving to the sorority house, Rodger uploaded a video to YouTube, titled "Elliot Rodger's Retribution", in which he outlined details of his upcoming attack and the motivations behind his killing spree, which he described as a desire to punish women for rejecting him and also a desire to punish sexually active men for living a better life than him.[6] YouTube removed the video after the killings, saying it violated their guidelines with its threats of violence.[7][8]

After he uploaded the video, Rodger e-mailed a lengthy autobiographical manuscript to about a dozen acquaintances and family members.[9] The document, which he titled "My Twisted World", was made available on the Internet and became widely known as his "manifesto". In it, he describes his childhood, family conflicts, frustration over not being able to find a girlfriend, his hatred of women, his contempt for racial minorities and interracial couples, and his plans for the killing spree.[10][11][12]

Anne-Marie Roy decries ‘rape culture’ at University of Ottawa after she was target of student leaders’ sexually graphic chat | National Post

Date rape drugs, gang rape, mainstream rape advertising, the rape culture we live in as seen celebrated during frosh week across North American campuses are all reasons why all men need to take a stand in support of women instead of wasting time complaining about superfluous, anachronistic talk of feminist male bashing

It has absolutely nothing to do with hyperbole and everything to do with equality and ending violence against women. You are either for or against this violence. You may not recognize that sexist jokes and unjust critiques of feminism contribute to the spectrum of violence against women but they do. Deal. Decide.

 

[Heidi Lemmer]

This whole subject is brought to us by Robert Shaeffer. This is what he's all about. On another public site he regularly posts some of the worst examples of UFO's reported. I've stumbled on his own site before and saw his views on feminism. I've been thinking about people like him this week, that take the worst of a subject and bury themselves in the fabric of it. When you think about it, it's a really safe place to be. There's very little effort to deal with the actual subject matter. UFO's and feminism both have extreme sides to them. Neither of which the common person that's interested in the subject relates to. I suppose these folks are needed if only to point out the extremes. But for me, they do nothing to advance the subject. They hold little intellectual value. Phillip Klass was this for me, granted only in hindsight. He had rare opportunities to honestly evaluate evidence and be a part of the conversation and yet he was so bent on a mission to make all things extraordinary into common that he lost half his audience. A person can be capable of pointing out the extremes in any given subject without trashing the subject itself.
I often wonder what brings folks like this to this field. If they don't believe anythings really going on, why stick around? Honestly, I think it's the attention they get, not much different from a Steven Greer. Can't you just envision them posting something radical and sitting back giggling at the effect they have on the serious minded who respond. It's nothing they've had to work for. Copy and paste some dumb asses comments and say, "There!, that's your UFO's!" Or to the other topic, Feminism, take the extreme and tout it about as "the" example of normal. It's the laziest position you can take.

 

[Burnt State]

Some people are axe-grinders because they like to cut others down.

Investigating the truth of any field of study takes an open mind, a willingness to change and some real personal commitment.

 

[Bananas]

Where is the ribbon for prison rape against men, huh? Statistically, more men are raped in the US than women if you take the prison population into account.Or what about sexual violence against other women perpetrated by women in prisons for that matter?

Where was the period of mourning when a guy gets his dick cut off? Nowhere, "he probably deserved it".

Where is the outrage about the epidemic of gold digging whores, hmmm? You know, people like Tiger Woods for example can't go outside without a bus load of women fighting eachother over who gets to jump on his dick first.

Where is the outrage about domestic violence perpetrated by women against men or other women, hmm? If a woman stabs a guy the sentiment is "he probably deserved it".

When do you start to educate girls that no, it's not ok to set a guys car on fire, or destroy his stuff? When do you start to educate girls that yes, a man CAN physically overpower you without effort, so you might want to think for a moment before you start to verbally abuse them? Or how about you stop taking for granted that you're not going to get punched in the face? Where is the education to make women realize that antagonizing a man on purpose is stupid?

And before you come back with another personal attack and arm-chair psych profiling, I'm not justifying anything, nor do I think it's "ok" to physically or mentally abuse anyone, for any reasons. What I'm saying is, that how bout you dial back the hypocrisy?

 

[Myself]

It amazes me how angry/frightened, some men become at the utterance of anything related to gender equality.

 

[Constance]

It amazes me how angry/frightened, some men become at the utterance of anything related to gender equality.

Am I the only one who, after reading this thread, feels that the situation is nearly hopeless?

 

[Myself]

Don't feel that way Constance. There are still plenty of women who are strong and driven fighting for equality, as well as many men who are fighting with them. All is not lost. The men longing for the days of unabated sexual harassment, womanizing without fear of reprisal, and women "their place" are a dying breed. Dying in philosophy as much as in years.

 

[Constance]

Thanks for the encouragement, Myself. What discourages me is the total lack of understanding of what feminism was and still is about as expressed by Bananas. This seems strange to me coming from a Swede or other Scandinavian individual, a region of the planet that I had considered to be comparatively enlightened. In the US, even racism remains alive as we see in the events in Missouri and Florida within the last year. I don't understand how this can go on and on and on and on. My daughter understood these issues when she was six years old, and I didn't need to teach her what she understood plainly from direct observation.

 

[Burnt State]

Thanks for the encouragement, Myself. What discourages me is the total lack of understanding of what feminism was, and still is, about as expressed by Bananas. This seems strange to me coming from a Swede or other Scandinavian individual, a region of the planet that I had considered to be comparatively enlightened. In the US, even racism remains alive as we see in the events in Missouri and Florida within the last year. I don't understand how this can go on and on and on and on. My daughter understood these issues when she was six years old, and I didn't need to teach her what she understood plainly from direct observation.

Something very strange happened in the 80's & 90's that somehow defind feminism as the "F-word" and marginalized it tremendously. Whether it's my colleagues or young women I'm constantly amazed at how many begin conversations with, "I'm not a feminist, but..."

There's a real need and desire to want to express issues around gender equity but no practical means to express it for fear of being seen as a man-basing lesbian. For seven years I've run a campaign at school focussing on gender equity creating platforms for young men and women to speak out on gender equity and gender based violence. This campaign includes detailed lesson plans that the staff uses avidly from The White Ribbon Campaign, an organization formed in Canada by men in response to The Montreal Massacre (the day the world changed for me), community forums, a No Means No/White Ribbon awareness raising focus and sexual assault & rape crisis workshops. We close the week with a vigil for all the women, children and men lost to violence. It's the most successful campaign I've ever run at school.

Over the years I have noticed that this ongoing campaign has freed up a lot of voices belonging to both staff and students. I inevitably hear a lot of really sad stories from very appreciative people about their sexual assault, what happened to their daughter, friend etc. - there's a palpable need to reconcile these complicated, life-marking, hidden experiences. And yes the sexual assault of men, pedophilia and homophobia all become topics of discussion in this context. Reaching out to young men through positive male models has a huge impact on young guys growing up with abusive or non-existent fathers.

Last year, in my leadership class a group of students created a workshop for students called "#Yesallwomen" that was a detailed examination of sexism, sexual assault and what men & women can do about it. They spoke using words lke 'misogyny' and 'feminism' as if they had speaking them all their lives. That was a milestone moment among other big moments i've seen when you create an ongong culture for open dialogue. Meaningful change can happen when we model for youth, speak up and let them speak out.

Dispelling male anger is a complex space but when you run a men's night in for all the young guys at school, being led by male staff, telling honest stories about violence, fatherhood and gender equity in their own lives you can create other options for how young men can see themselves, their power and how it can be used for support and protection instead of aggression.

BTW, the White Ribbon Campaign is now an international movement of men on all continents working together with other men for change and they are simply the best bunch of guys i've ever run into. They are committed men involved in all levels of society, working persistently for change.