Where did all the skeptics go?

[RJHark00]

Simply proclaiming otherwise and equating it with religious nonsense serves no useful purpose.

As I've stated elsewhere, I would not equate them, but there are parallels. UFOlogy and the associated mythos and folklore tells us more about ourselves than aliens. Of course there's a purpose, and you just demonstrated another great parallel between ufology and religion: when you question its premises you get reflexively attacked!

This is a demonstration of typical pseudoskeptical logic based on a lack of good data or experience.

I think people experience these things, and it's worth exploring.

 

[stphrz]

I disagree, i think biological entities are more "checkable" than control systems
Our planet is teeming with biological entitys, our galaxy is teeming with suns and planetary systems, our universe teeming with galaxys..........

Not being able to go and check, is not the same as being uncheckable.

In my example i might be a quadraplegic strapped into a chair in the house, i am therefore unable to go and check and see if the dogs have gotton out and are chasing the neighbours cat.
But im well aware of the parameters of the fence and its footings, i can be reasonably secure in the belief they are still in the yard.

Thats the bit you seem to be missing, the fact we cant go and check for ET life, does not mean its uncheckable.

Of all the possibilitys that are on the table, the ETH is the only one that is checkable, even though we cant check it. any more than our quadraplegic dog owner can check is checkable yard.
The yard is checkable, but he cant check it.................

And what I and others in this thread have tried to point out to you is: In regard to ETH your proverbial fence is actually six centimeters high with multiple meter wide gaps in it. If you feel reasonably secure that such a fence would contain your dogs I can understand the security you would feel in your belief that ET is coming here. Thats the more accurate analogy. You make it sound like ETH is water tight, air tight, and bullet proof with an all powerful phalanx with which to unerringly shoot down any incoming opposing argument.

ET requires advanced technology to overcome the massive problem of interstellar distance. A control system phenomenon that is tied to the earth does not.

ET requires advanced intellegence. A control system phenomenon that is tied to the earth doesn't even require sentience.

ET requires you to identify who is coming here, how they are coming here, where they are from, and why they are here.
You don't just get to say they are somebody from somewhere who got here somehow for reasons only known to them.
That in the final analysis is all ETH states. Like I said, a fence full of holes.

The control system hypothesis is far more limited. It doesn't state who, how or even why. It at least is able to state what is being controlled (us and our concepts), and which concepts are being shaped (spiritual, moral, sociological, psychological) and perhaps the direction in which those concepts are being shaped. It is extremely narrow in scope and doesn't attempt to explain everything. It pens in a very tiny area but with a far more robust fence.

 

[mike]

Six centimeters high ?

Actually what we can see of it is 28 billion light years in diameter and about 14 billion years old.

Its something that is real and can be measured which is more than can be said for the "concept" of a control system

 

[stphrz]

Six centimeters high ?

Actually what we can see of it is 28 billion light years in diameter and about 14 billion years old.

Its something that is real and can be measured which is more than can be said for the "concept" of a control system

First of all your ETH is not the universe. I've heard of delusions of grandeur before but this is something else.

Please elaborate:

Who is coming here?

Where are they from?

How are they accomplishing the task of traveling such great distances?

Why are they here and what are they doing?

Any measurements, observations, calculations or supporting data of any sort would be nice. Failing that, you can just make stuff up. I won't mind. I'll just use them as data points for my control system research.

 

[kukalakana]

First of all your ETH is not the universe. I've heard of delusions of grandeur before but this is something else.

Please elaborate:

Who is coming here?

Where are they from?

How are they accomplishing the task of traveling such great distances?

Why are they here and what are they doing?

Any measurements, observations, calculations or supporting data of any sort would be nice. Failing that, you can just make stuff up. I won't mind. I'll just use them as data points for my control system research.

* Claps hands excitedly * OOH can I play too?? Can I? Can I???

 

[Anaximander]

So is this what you do for fun?

 

[mike]

First of all your ETH is not the universe. I've heard of delusions of grandeur before but this is something else.

Please elaborate:

Who is coming here?

Where are they from?

How are they accomplishing the task of traveling such great distances?

Why are they here and what are they doing?

Any measurements, observations, calculations or supporting data of any sort would be nice. Failing that, you can just make stuff up. I won't mind. I'll just use them as data points for my control system research.

Again, there are no answers, just balances of probability.
You think on the balance of probability that as you stated, your control system theory has the most merit.
I dont agree, given the parameters of the physical universe the non terrestrial biological entity theory has more merit.
The planet is teeming with biological entitys, the galaxy is teeming with planets and the visable universe is teeming with galaxys.
This model is real. you can see it and even touch it.

Where does this "control system" come from, what physical platform does it reside on, if its responsible for the structured metalic craft observed, how did it build them ?

System

Set of detailed methods, procedures, and routines established or formulated to carry out a specific activity,
A group of interacting, interrelated, or interdependent elements forming a complex whole.

System are by definition "complex"

So where does your "control system" come from/reside, what powers it what are its "nuts and bolts"

as to this tired old question

"How are they accomplishing the task of traveling such great distances?"

The same way we travel great distances, using nuts and bolts technology

Man is incapable of flying from london to new york , its not possible.... planes can , and people travel inside them.
Distance is relative, so is the technology required to traverse it, whether thats a bicycle to the local shops, a 747 to another continent, or a rocket to the moon.

There was a time when no one understood the principles of mechanical flight, that didnt mean its impossible to fly.
The same applys to interstellar distances, to say "its impossible" is to join that set of humans who once said its impossible to fly.
We know they were wrong..................

so to the question "whats behind the structured metalic craft sometimes observed"
we have biological entitys from somewhere other than here, more technically advanced than us, or a tenuously defined "control system"

Personally on the "balance of probability" id say ET.

The white paper, now commonly referred to as The COMETA
Report, was compiled by a group of thirteen retired top-tier generals, admirals and
government scientists (including General Bernard Norlain, the former head of the
French Tactical Air Force, and Andre Lebeau, the former head of CNES [the French
equivalent of NASA]) and documented the existence of unidentified flying objects
and their implications for national security.87 Copies were received by President
Jacques Chirac and Prime Minister Lionel Jospin. The report concluded that for the
small percentage of UFO sightings which after exhaustive investigation and analysis
could not be attributed to any known earthly technology or phenomena, the​

extraterrestrial hypothesis was valid.

The report stated that some UFOs represent
“completely unknown flying machines with exceptional performances that are guided
by natural or artificial intelligence”​

88 and noted that, although the extraterrestrial
hypothesis “has not been categorically proven... strong presumptions exist in its​

favour.”

I agree with the scientists who authored this report that
the extraterrestrial hypothesis was valid.
That
strong presumptions exist in its favour.

 

[Trajanus]

Saucers & Mythology

Now hold on a second.

He's right. It does smack of religion. After all I did state that view as belief. I admit that.

I also could be totally wrong. I admit that possibility too. It could be that sometime in the future whatever/whoever is behind it will step out from behind the curtain to reveal themselves and say:

"Yeah, that was just us. Sorry if we gave you a fright or caused any trouble. We were just trying to teach you a lesson."

I'm not gonna hold my breath for that though. Maybe I should have said undiscoverable.

Still undiscoverable after decades of anticipated future progress---too pessimistic.

You're thinking too small and on too short a time scale. Where will humanity and it's concepts be 200 years from now?

The alien face is used as a logo for consumer products. Ever hear of Alienware computers? It is used in advertising, it's on t-shirts, billboards, book covers, posters, tv shows, movies, on and on and on.

Believe me, I'm aware of that. Still, despite its enormous potential importance, the whole subject is hardly at center stage in our culture. Out and out sci fi gets much more attention.

In terms of overt acceptance, yes you are correct. In terms of a seed planted in our conciousness you are wrong.

I don't doubt the phenomenon is affecting us in slow, subtle ways that will add up over time. I just doubt this would be happening if the phenomenon were imaginary or fictitious.

Oh now, you don't really mean that. You aren't talking about some kind of scary scenario like an alien invasion are you?

For someone so "in the dark" about the phenomenon, you are are confident about what it can or can't do. Who knows for sure.

And surely you aren't hoping for great extraterrestrial beings to come down and save us by granting us advanced technology. That, would be truly religious.

Right, I don't think they're here to help.

I contend that mankind will, in the end, do fine in the universe. We will do so on our own. I'm very hopeful.

Same here.

 

[PararealitySaint]

Saucers & Mythology

And they go on and on. So sure of themselves, yet always evading the direct question of what possible material evidence makes them so sure!

They don't have for you any real proof or evidence of the existence of extraterrestrial life forms, but that doesn't mean they aren't there....

Just make up any old tale, throw it out in the world like it's real proof, and then watch as it solidifies in the toxic every day role of the ever popular Martian wannabe....rinse and repeat with all the cool phraseology which just has to make it read as a viable support base because damn it, it sounds so righteous.

The really sad part is in the defending by use of the "supported" data information which in and of itself does nothing to actually "prove" the existence, and everything to show it CAN be possible.

So what!

I can prove with all sorts of support based data that the chances of a tectonic shift in the polar access of the earth is going to knock down the Empire State Building, but until it happens, all I have is data and strong personal vibes as to the event....Nothing there but data, some "feeling" which may or may not have initialized my theory, and some tidbits about a fault line which runs under Manhattan.

This type of well wishing data and all the support based run around hyperbole an E.T does not make.

 

[stphrz]

Saucers & Mythology

Even though no one can establish for certain the phenomenon is actually real, lets just assume we can.

The phenomenon is real.

Who are they? Another way to put it is, what is nature of the phenomenon?

ETH refuses to commit. Won't go out on a limb and even try to make a guess. Insufficient data to make any kind of determination.

Where are they from? Another way to put it is, from where does the phenomenon originate?

ETH refuses to commit. Won't go out on a limb and even try to make a guess. Insufficient data to make any kind of determination.

How did they get here?

ETH says some kind of technology we can't even begin to understand. Again, insufficient data to make any kind of determination.

Why are they here?

ETH says...... Well you get the point. The pattern is established.

ETH proponents, despite all of this, insist their hypothesis is the most likely to be correct. They calculate probabilities without calculations for possibilities undefined.

So what we have here is a hypothesis that is deemed "the best" by virtue of its inablility to answer any questions whatsoever.

 

[mike]

Well i guess it comes down to whos opinion i personally favour.

ive quoted the scientists who wrote the cometa report

The white paper, now commonly referred to as The COMETA
Report, was compiled by a group of thirteen retired top-tier generals, admirals and
government scientists (including General Bernard Norlain, the former head of the
French Tactical Air Force, and Andre Lebeau, the former head of CNES [the French
equivalent of NASA]) and documented the existence of unidentified flying objects
and their implications for national security.87 Copies were received by President
Jacques Chirac and Prime Minister Lionel Jospin. The report concluded that for the
small percentage of UFO sightings which after exhaustive investigation and analysis
could not be attributed to any known earthly technology or phenomena, the​

extraterrestrial hypothesis was valid.

The report stated that some UFOs represent
“completely unknown flying machines with exceptional performances that are guided
by natural or artificial intelligence”
88 and noted that, although the extraterrestrial
hypothesis “has not been categorically proven... strong presumptions exist in its​

favour.”

Ive quoted Neil DeGrasse Tyson

it would be inexcusably egocentric to suggest we are alone in the cosmos..........."

but wait theres more

"The least improbable explanation is that these things are artificial and controlled. . .my opinion for some time has been that they have an extraterrestrial origin."
-Dr. Maurice Biot, aerodynamicist and mathematical physicist.

"The discs use a means of propulsion different from ours. There is no other possible explanation. Flying saucers come from another world."
-Louis Breguet, French aircraft designer and manufacturer.

"What I found [in doing research for the book Project Delta] was compelling evidence to claim that most of these aerial objects far exceeded the terrestrial technology of the era in which they were seen. I was forced to conclude that there is a great likelihood that Earth is being visited by highly advanced aerospace vehicles under highly 'intelligent' control indeed."
-Dr. Richard F. Haines, retired NASA senior research scientist at Ames Research Center and the Research Institute for Advanced Computer Science where he worked on the International Space Station.--From the preface of his book, CE-5, 1998.

"Many professional astronomers are convinced that saucers are interplanetary machines."
-Dr. Frank Halstead of the Darling Observatory, Minnesota--1957

Dr. J. Allen Hynek, former Chairman of the Dept. of Astronomy at North Western University and scientific advisor to Project Bluebook from 1952-1969

• "When I first got involved in this field, I was particularly skeptical of people who said they had seen UFOs on several occasions and totally incredulous about those who claimed to have been taken aboard one. But I've had to change my mind." --1972

• "It reminds me of the days of Galileo when he was trying to get people to look at the sun spots. They would say that the sun is a symbol of God; God is perfect; therefore the sun is perfect; therefore spots cannot exist: therefore there is no point in looking." --Hynek in Newsweek, Nov. 21, 1977, p. 97

"I have absolutely no idea where the UFO's come from or how they are operated, but after ten years of research, I know they are something from outside our atmosphere."
-Dr. James E. McDonald, Professor of Atmospheric physics, University of Arizona. 1967.

It seemed fantastic that there could be any such thing. At first, the temptation was to say it was all nonsense, a series of optical illusions. But there have been so many reports from responsible observers that they cannot be ignored. It seems hardly possible that all these reports could be due to optical illusions."
-Dr. J. C. MacKenzie, Chairman of the Canadian Atomic Energy Control Board and former president of the National Research Council.--January, 1952

"The facts about saucers were long tracked down and results have long been known in top secret defense circles of more countries than one."
-Dr. Harry Messel, Professor of Physics at Sydney University, Australia, in a 1965 statement.

Dr. Herman Oberth, the father of modern rocketry

• "UFOs are conceived and directed by intelligent beings of a very high order, and they are propelled by distorting the gravitational field, converting gravity into useable energy. There is no doubt in my mind that these objects are interplanetary craft of some sort. I and my colleagues are confident that they do not originate in our solar system, but we feel that they may use Mars or some other body as sort of a way station. They probably do not originate in our solar system, perhaps not even in our galaxy."

I am completely convinced that [UFOs] have an out-of-world basis."
-Dr. Walther Riedel, research director and chief designer at Germany's rocket center in Peenemunde, also worked on classified projects for the U.S. after WW2. From LIFE Magazine, April 7, 1952.

There are in excess of 200 reports of the type that we had from down in Louisiana, from people claiming that they have had direct contact with a spacecraft full of aliens. I mean 200 reports from witnesses who are as reliable or more so than these people. I'm not counting the reports from the obvious crackpots that have an axe to grind....If you accept them at face value then you're forced to accept that we have been visited.
-Dr. John Sathco, an Astronomer at the University of Southern California, 1973

Wilbert Smith, Electrical engineer who convinced the Canadian government to establish Project Magnet to study the UFO phenomenon and later served as engineer-in-charge of the project.

• "The matter is the most highly classified subject in the United States Government, rating higher even than the H-bomb. Flying saucers exist. Their modus operandi is unknown but concentrated effort is being made by a small group headed by Dr. Vannevar Bush." --From a declssified Canadian government memorandum dated Nov. 21, 1950.

• "...it soon became apparent that there was a very real and quite large gap between this alien science and the science in which I had been trained. Certain crucial experiments were suggested and carried out, and in each case the results confirmed the validity of the alien science. Beyond this point the alien science just seemed to be incomprehensible." --In a speech concerning experiments allegedly suggested by EBEs (Extraterrestrial Biological Entities); March 31, 1958

more here
http://www.ufoevidence.org/documents/doc1744.htm


Personally i prefer to take the word of educated scientists over superstitious ignorance

It should be obvious to all but the deliberatly obtuse that


" strong presumptions exist in its favour."

(cometa report)

This one is particularly relevant

It reminds me of the days of Galileo when he was trying to get people to look at the sun spots. They would say that the sun is a symbol of God; God is perfect; therefore the sun is perfect; therefore spots cannot exist: therefore there is no point in looking." --Dr Hynek in Newsweek, Nov. 21, 1977, p. 97

 

[RJHark00]

Hey Jacques ... no attacks ... just the facts. There are "parallels" between almost anything, e.g. vaccinations and homeopathy, but obviously if one were to constantly imply a connection, one would end up with divisive and skewed opinions.

www.ufopages.com

I'm trying to separate signal from noise. If you already have the answers to your satisfaction, then that's your prerogative, and I wish you a hearty 'Godspeed' on your quest.

But if you won't consider other interpretive frameworks, then how will you ever "change this situation (i.e. the "'us versus them' relationship") by appealing to the common desire of both sides to establish the truth?" (per your website)

People like you are what the Shermers of the world live for.

 

[stphrz]

Well i guess it comes down to whos opinion i personally favour.

ive quoted the scientists who wrote the cometa report



Ive quoted Neil DeGrasse Tyson



but wait theres more























more here
http://www.ufoevidence.org/documents/doc1744.htm


Personally i prefer to take the word of educated scientists over superstitious ignorance

It should be obvious to all but the deliberatly obtuse that


" strong presumptions exist in its favour."

(cometa report)

This one is particularly relevant

A lot of scientists reject/rejected ETH. Carl Sagan for example. I could name whole lot more but I won't bother. My scientist(s) are better than your scientist(s) so nya nya nya.

Is that the kind of game you want to play?

Are you so afraid of being wrong? Are you so afraid of entertaining the possibility? I'm not. I stated so, often. I've proposed an alternate avenue of research and am quite prepared to be debunked by the findings of said research. In fact, I would view any serious challenges to the CSH as chance to rethink or refine my thoughts on the matter.

Lots and lots of folks are out there right now trying their hardest to find evidence for ETH. They have been trying for decades and have not found enough evidence to propose even a half assed guess to try to answer the questions I asked. No civilization type 1, 2, or 3 energy emisssions have been found. Zero. Zilch. Dr. Michio Kaku has admitted so. He, from what I gather from what I have read, is sympathetic to the possibility of the existence of advanced extraterrestrials.

And I have never once said it was impossible.

However the ETH is an attempt to explain what is happening here on earth. It can't be proven to be wrong only because the possibility of being wrong presumes an an answer to a question has been put forth. What question has the ETH answered?

Except for Vallee and maybe a few others no one is even looking into CSH and I think it deserves a chance.

 

[Trajanus]

Saucers & Mythology

Who are they? Another way to put it is, what is nature of the phenomenon?

ETH refuses to commit. Won't go out on a limb and even try to make a guess. Insufficient data to make any kind of determination.

?? ETH proponents have long favored the view they're intelligent beings basically like us, but more advanced. That's long been the general impression.

Where are they from? Another way to put it is, from where does the phenomenon originate?

ETH refuses to commit. Won't go out on a limb and even try to make a guess. Insufficient data to make any kind of determination.

Again, not true...ETH proponents may not be able to name a specific extrasolar star system but they assume origination somewhere else in the galaxy or physical Universe. UFO entities appear to be intelligent, basically man-like beings with superior technology, which argues against earth or another planet in our solar system.

How did they get here?

ETH says some kind of technology we can't even begin to understand. Again, insufficient data to make any kind of determination.

There have been a number of purported explanations by e.g. Lazar and Julien. Now I'm aware of certain credibility issues )) but the point is, some say it can be understood.

Why are they here?

ETH says......

Based on various reports, there is evidence some are here for research purposes, others to harrass the government or military etc.

So what we have here is a hypothesis that is deemed "the best" by virtue of its inablility to answer any questions whatsoever.

Lol, your opinion.

---------- Post added at 06:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:59 PM ----------

You make a few assumptions here which although fair are not entirely logical or accurate. The first is your presumption regarding the reality of the phenomenon. Essentially one can not have "certainty" that anything is "real", so I'll give you that. But insomuch as numerous humans have perceived and experienced the UFO phenomenon, sometimes in conjunction with other witnesses and backed up by radar, it is as "real" as many other transient "phenomena".

As for the "nature of the phenomenon", that was established back in the late 1940s when the US Air Force issued investigative summaries that include comments like:

"The phenomenon is something real and not visionary or fictitious."

Sure, Twining said that, in '47.

"There are objects probably approximating the shape of a disc, of such appreciable size as to appear to be as large as man-made aircraft."

"The reported operating characteristics such as extreme rates of climb, maneuverability (particularly in roll), and motion which must be considered evasive when sighted or contacted by friendly aircraft and radar, lend belief to the possibility that some of the objects are controlled either manually, automatically or remotely."

Sure and ahead of ours.

The question of "who they are" is not relevant to the issue of wheteher or not they exist. Maybe they don't have names like "Mork" or "Alf", but there certainly are theories as to where they come from. For example Stanton Friedman, a physicist with more credentials than most of the people I have run into on this forum finds it reasonable to suggest Zeta Reticuli.

Yes, reasonable, inasmuch as its Population II hence older than our sun. But by no means proven of course.

Regarding how they get here. That is pretty much self evident. UFOs are obviously some sort of transportation technology and they get here using them. But even if you really mean, "how does UFO technology work", we have scientists like NASA scientist Paul R. Hill who has proposed an anti-gravity drive. Just because we haven't built one ( that we know of ) yet, doesn't mean they aren't possible. People once thought metal boats couldn't float, we couldn't break the sound barrier and rocket ships were purely a fantasy. Again, physicist Stanton Friedman, who actually helped design nuclear powered rocket propulsion systems has proposed a number of ways to traverse large distances using relatively primitive technology.


Regarding why they are here. There are plenty of theories on that as well. The most reasonable is that that Earth-like planets are a fairly rare commodity and they probably want to study it and possibly exploit it to some degree for their own purposes ( knowledge and resources ). After all, we find the life on our own world pretty interesting to study, and have also gone out with space probes looking for information about other worlds, so it's perfectly reasonable to suggest that life forms from other worlds might want to do the same thing.

In fact, there have been plenty of reports of UFO entities collecting samples.

As for "calculating probablities", I fail to see the relevance of that comment. Even if we go with something as basic as the Drake Equation, the probabilities are based on observations of sun-like stars, and since it was first proposed, we have found a lot of sun-like stars, and have begun to detect actual planets as well. If our species survives and continues to evolve its technology, It's only a matter of time before we find something with life on it and go there ourselves, at which time perhaps some relatively primitive culture might think we're the aliens, and have debates about whether or not we are real.

Right all the ETH requires is a duplication elsewhere of our own development, albeit extrapolated a bit.

 

[PararealitySaint]

Saucers & Mythology

... That is pretty much self evident. Ufos are obviously some sort of transportation technology and they get here using them.

"they".......????

 

[Angel of Ioren]

Saucers & Mythology

For example Stanton Friedman, a physicist with more credentials than most of the people I have run into on this forum finds it reasonable to suggest Zeta Reticuli.

I always thought that was an inside joke.

 

[SRL+]

Saucers & Mythology

Why is your writing so large?

 

[SRL+]

Saucers & Mythology

I guess that stands to reason. I have been able to read your posts from ten paces.

 

[tyder001]

Saucers & Mythology

I'm now at the age where I have to actually take off my glasses to read up close. Of course it has it's advantages with a Kindle or a book or an Ipad. But, it's hard to read a pc. So, as long as your not yelling I'll take the big print. Now back to our regularly scheduled fuss.

 

[RJHark00]

Saucers & Mythology

What? That Friedman has credentials, or that Zeta Reticuli is actual real?

I don't think anyone doubts that Zeta Reticuli exists; we all have access to Wikipedia.

He's probably talking about how Zeta Reticuli being the origin of ET is an inside joke for some ufologists because of Betty Hill's star map. This has been alluded to on the podcast before.

How is the question of who they are irrelevant to whether or not they exist?