Where do you fit in as a believer or skeptic?

[Red Arrow]

And don't get me started on the cult of the zombie prophet...ok, actually, I'll start. How did Jesus 'ascend' to Heaven? Was it in an upwards direction and when did he reach it? Where is it? Did he bodily de-materialise like being transported on Star Trek and his 'soul' went to heaven? Was there any decay of his body during the 3 days inbetween......ad nauseum...

Why do atheists feel the need to be offensive and smarmy? Have they really been so put upon by religion? Were they accosted in their youth by roving gangs of choir boys?

 

[Goggs Mackay]

I didn't say I was an atheist and what I do hate is the assumption that I should believe in J.C. He, or someone similar no doubt existed but I very much doubt he was in any way supernatural. The idea that this executed man came back to life and 'ascended' to heaven is laughable I'm sorry to say. I'm sorry so many people believe it and I'm really really sorry the reason most of them do is cos they have been told to. That is not funny.

 

[Red Arrow]

I didn't say I was an atheist and what I do hate is the assumption that I should believe in J.C. He, or someone similar no doubt existed but I very much doubt he was in any way supernatural. The idea that this executed man came back to life and 'ascended' to heaven is laughable I'm sorry to say. I'm sorry so many people believe it and I'm really really sorry the reason most of them do is cos they have been told to. That is not funny.

So because you don't believe in Jesus, you have license to be dismissive and offensive to those who do? I would have thought you smarter than that, based on what I've heard from you on the show.

 

[Jeff Davis]

I am an agnostic. I do not disavow the notion that we may have been engineered, or created. That in no way seems that outlandish to me. Not for someone who believes already that we are possibly not the only sentient type of being in town. No one knows that for certain, no matter what they tell you. I could honestly care less whatever view someone adopts, or is programmed with, just as long as they are not pushing that view on me in such a sense that I have to pay for it, or actually contend they are correct in practice. I just want the right to take responsibility for myself and get on with life without having to be a pallbearer at society's funeral just so I can say that I finished the job that I started.

 

[Randall]

It's been my experience in these discussions that most people, particularly believers, don't have a grasp on what the word "God" means. If they could just get that part down before jumping off the ledge, then perhaps they might be able to unravel the rest of the tangled mess involving churches and rituals and deities that make up religion and move on to something more substantial. Agnosticism cannot be justified in all situations. In some religions, God's existence is as provable and knowable as any other thing that exists. Whether or not faith in such religions is justifiable is another matter. Ultimately religion in its entirety is a whole buffet of myths and legends served up in various cuisines all designed to tally you up a tab at the end of the meal. Some people however don't like paying so they cook up their own versions at home, and unfortunately some people can get really offended when you don't like their cooking. The biggest difference between food and religion is that we need food to survive. We don't need religion.

 

[Jeff Davis]

It's been my experience in these discussions that most people, particularly believers, don't have a grasp on what the word "God" means. If they could just get that part down before jumping off the ledge, then perhaps they might be able to unravel the rest of the tangled mess involving churches and rituals and deities that make up religion and move on to something more substantial. Agnosticism cannot be justified in all situations. In some religions, God's existence is as provable and knowable as any other thing that exists. Whether or not faith such religions is justifiable or not is another matter. Ultimately religion in its entirety is a whole buffet of myths and legends served up in various cuisines all designed to tally you up a tab at the end of the meal. Some people however don't like paying so they cook up their own versions at home, and unfortunately some people can get really offended when you don't like their cooking. The biggest difference between food and religion is that we need food to survive. We don't need religion.

I see religion as an attractive misdirection of instinct, which is largely in part, an intentionally deceptive control mechanism. Unlike the schools of ancient gnostic practice, which albeit, as is the case with any indoctrination based belief system, a possible tool for deceit. However, these typically drug induced consciousness altered experience, schools of "spiritual" learning, focused itself more on the individual experience, rather then one demonstrative of a pseudo moral collective.

Speaking of consciousness, that's where I was headed, right when I took notice of this post

 

[mike]

Why do atheists feel the need to be offensive and smarmy? Have they really been so put upon by religion? Were they accosted in their youth by roving gangs of choir boys?

Actually my answer to this is YES

Its my opinion this delusional BS has done our species great harm throughout its history.
If organised religion were a person it would be locked up in a prison for the criminally insane

 

[Randall]

Actually my answer to this is YES
Its my opinion this delusional BS has done our species great harm throughout its history.
If organised religion were a person it would be locked up in a prison for the criminally insane

I don't think religious people truly recognize just how freaky they are. I haven't pledged allegiance to any god, nor am I church goer, so last time I was in a church, it was for some kind of wedding ritual in a Catholic church. Those places are weird enough with all the candles and pews and imagery, but there were all these people dressed for church, and when the priest came out in all his garb, including some kind of smoking incense, holy water, and a scepter, and started in with these weird "repeat after me" type incantations, which the zombie like congregation repeated back while kneeling in an attempt to invoke the favor of their God, I think I went into culture shock as if I'd been inducted into some kind of giant cult. So far as I was concerned, I was stuck in a room with over 250 people who had serious mental issues. Meanwhile, my other half, having been a former Catholic, thought this was all perfectly normal, and when she saw the look of horror on my face began laughing. Yup, that's how far disconnected I am from any religion. So seriously, I see what you mean by "insane" . These people not only believe all the nonsense, they actively participate in it, and sometimes it's scary .

 

[Red Arrow]

And if mother nature were a person she would be a serial killer. You have no personal control over either. The argument is pointless.

 

[Jeff Davis]

I don't think religious people truly recognize just how freaky they are. I haven't pledged allegiance to any god, nor am I church goer, so last time I was in a church, it was for some kind of wedding ritual in a Catholic church. Those places are weird enough with all the candles and pews and imagery, but there were all these people dressed for church, and when the priest came out in all his garb, including some kind of smoking incense, holy water, and a scepter, and started in with these weird "repeat after me" type incantations, which the zombie like congregation repeated back while kneeling in an attempt to invoke the favor of their God, I think I went into culture shock as if I'd been inducted into some kind of giant cult. Meanwhile, my other half, having been a former Catholic, thought this was all perfectly normal, and when she saw the look of horror on my face began laughing. Yup, that's how far disconnected I am from any religion. So seriously, I see what you mean by "insane" . These people not only believe all the nonsense, they actively participate in it, and sometimes it's scary .

I literally go through this every Christmas Eve. For about the first five years it was weird! But, I'm getting past the ritualized process by privately extolling the virtues of the one thing that I have going for me, the mass we go to is in Polish and I can't understand a word of it. Trust me, that doesn't make it any better. I gotta say, one thing I LOVE about that night. Being with my family, and seeing all the lights reflecting, hopefully off some snow.

 

[mike]

And if mother nature were a person she would be a serial killer. You have no personal control over either. The argument is pointless.

Like god, mother nature is a fictional character.

So yes the argument may as well be whos better Batman or Spiderman....

A recent example from the insane brigade

Massive Earthquake To Hit West Coast Today, Internet Prophets Predict#

According to not one, not two, but three self-styled Christian prophets, a major earthquake will hit the west coast today, Oct. 3, 2013.
He said when he shared this news at his weekly luncheon, “one of our sisters (Barbara) told me that the Lord had spoken to her clearly recently. He said that the ‘bowl of iniquity of San Francisco’ was now full to the brim!”

These people should be locked up without internet access, they are delusional to the point of being a danger to themselves and others........

Since it didnt happen , what we are left with is a sick wish for the destruction of people who have made lifestyle choices incompatable with thier deluded world view.

 

[Red Arrow]

Like god, mother nature is a fictional character.

So yes the argument may as well be whos better Batman or Spiderman....

A recent example from the insane brigade

Massive Earthquake To Hit West Coast Today, Internet Prophets Predict#




These people should be locked up without internet access, they are delusional to the point of being a danger to themselves and others........

Since it didnt happen , what we are left with is a sick wish for the destruction of people who have made lifestyle choices incompatable with thier deluded world view.

Yep, those people are extreme. What's your point? Are you saying that all people of faith are the same as those people?

I have to say, I am completely shocked by the vitriolic prejudice voiced by some in this thread. The Bible is "BS". God is a "fictional character". Jesus is a "zombie prophet". Churches are "weird" places filled with "zombie like" congregations who are "completely nuts".

It's all disrespectful and unnecessarily mean spirited, but I suspect that's kind of the point, childish as it is. Sticks and stones, kids...

 

[Xylo]

Yep, those people are extreme. What's your point? Are you saying that all people of faith are the same as those people?

I have to say, I am completely shocked by the vitriolic prejudice voiced by some in this thread. The Bible is "BS". God is a "fictional character". Jesus is a "zombie prophet". Churches are "weird" places filled with "zombie like" congregations who are "completely nuts".

It's all disrespectful and unnecessarily mean spirited, but I suspect that's kind of the point, childish as it is. Sticks and stones, kids...

I don't think any of that is vitriolic. How else would anyone put it, so that it doesn't offend you? Perhaps if I said "The bible is astrological allegory with a dash of history (whose history we're not sure, but it is a retelling of age old stories from societies that pre-date the israelites) and spiced with a splash of myth?" Or if I said that some churches exhibit some of the same characteristics of a riotous mob? Not really sure how I would categorize a dead person that came back to life, other than a zombie. But I'm open to suggestions.

Sure, those descriptors are base. But vitriolic? I guess maybe my atheism gives me a thicker skin when someone else bashes my beliefs.

 

[mike]

Heres the thing, no one in their right mind considers "nature" that is the biological process we see here on earth to have any sort of cognitive sentience.
It is what it is, earth is a platform on which the biological process takes place, its not a "mother" in the sense we normally use that word in.

But your god on the other hand is ascribed the power of thought and choice just like a real person has.

Lets look at some examples of those choices


Drunk With Blood: God's killings in the Bible
Drunk With Blood: God's Killings in the Bible
Whatever your religious beliefs might be, you've probably heard of a few of the stories that are told in Drunk With Blood. Noah's Flood,Sodom and Gomorrah, David and Goliath, maybe. But there are over 100 others that are unknown to pretty much everyone, believer and nonbeliever alike. All of these stories have one thing in common: they are about God's killings in the Bible.
Did you know, for example, that God:

• Forced friends and family to kill each other for dancing naked around Aaron's golden calf?
• Burned Aaron's sons to death for offering him strange fire?
• Burned complainers to death, forced the survivors to eat quail until it literally came out their noses, sent "fiery serpents" to bite people for complaining about the lack of food and water, and killed 14,700 for complaining about his killings?
• Buried alive those that opposed Moses (along with their families)?
• Burned 250 men to death for burning incense?
• Rewarded Phinehas for throwing a spear though the bellies of an mixed-faith couple while they were having sex?
• Ordered, assisted in, or approved of dozens of complete genocides?
• Accepted human sacrifice in the cases of Jephthah's daughter and Saul's seven sons?
• Helped Samson murder thirty men for their clothes, slaughter 1000 with the jawbone of an ass, and kill 3000 civilians in a a suicide terrorist attack?
• Smote the Philistines of several cities with hemorrhoids in their secret parts?
• Killed a man for trying to keep the ark of the covenant from falling and 50,070 for looking into the ark?
• Approved when David bought his first wife with 200 Philistine foreskins?
• Killed King Saul for not killing every Amalekite as he told him to do?
• Slowly killed a baby to punish King David for committing adultery?
• Killed 70,000 because David had a census that he (or Satan) told him to do?
• Sent a lion to kill a prophet for believing another prophet's lie, another lion to kill a man for not smiting a prophet, and some more lions to kill people that didn't fear him enough?
• Killed 450 religious leaders who lost a prayer contest with Elijah and burned 102 men to death for asking Elijah to come down from his hill?
• Sent two bears to rip apart 42 boys for making fun of Elisha's bald head?
• Killed 27,000 Syrians by having a wall fall on them, sent an angel to kill 185,000 sleeping soldiers, interfered in human battles to kill a half million Israelite and a million Ethiopian soldiers?
• Killed King Ahab for not killing a captured king, and then sent King Jehu on a series of mass murders to kill all of Ahab's family and friends who had ever "pissed against a wall?"
• Killed Jehoram by making his bowels fall out?
• Killed Job's ten children in a bet with Satan?
• Killed Ezekiel's wife and told him not to mourn her?
• Killed Ananias and Sapphira for not giving Peter all their money?
• Killed King Herod by feeding him to worms?

All of these killings, and more, are found in the Bible, and the God of the Bible is proud of each one.
Here is what he says about them: I kill ... I wound ... I will make mine arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh. -- Deuteronomy 32:39-42
These stories fill the pages of the Bible, yet they are seldom read in any church and are completely ignored by most Bible believers.
Drunk with Blood brings them out into the open for all to see. It's time for us all to take a look.

If you want to point the finger at disrespectful and mean spirited look no further than the big G

More Rape and Baby Killing
Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)

Murder in the Bible

Do not think that I came to bring peace on Earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man's enemies will be the members of his household. He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow Me is not worthy of Me. He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it. (Matthew 10:34–39

I am come to send fire on Earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled? But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished! Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. (Luke 12:49–53)

If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple. (Luke 14:26)
And in Luke 22:35–38

Trying to spin this vile garbage as anything other than the outright evil it esposes is what i find disrespectful and mean spirited

 

[mike]

And how does this garbage manifest today ?

Today’s quake, however, will strike San Francisco, “cleansing” that city. According to the aforementioned Pastor Joe, who holds a “Prophecy Luncheon” every Tuesday where he and other prophets predict massive disasters while dining, one of his correspondents envisioned, “the Golden Gate Bridge breaking in half and going vertical, a huge tsunami covering San Francisco.”

These A holes sit around eating lunch, wishing death and destruction on their fellow humans...........Insane

Now THATS disrespectful and mean spirited
Telling it like it is....... Thats just honesty

 

[Tyger]

Yep, those people are extreme. What's your point? Are you saying that all people of faith are the same as those people?

I have to say, I am completely shocked by the vitriolic prejudice voiced by some in this thread. The Bible is "BS". God is a "fictional character". Jesus is a "zombie prophet". Churches are "weird" places filled with "zombie like" congregations who are "completely nuts".

It's all disrespectful and unnecessarily mean spirited, but I suspect that's kind of the point, childish as it is. Sticks and stones, kids...

I agree. Using such characterizations preclude any real dialog or meaningful communication - and is the equivalent of 'code' for 'not interested in what anyone else really has to say on the matter - fair warning given'. But then there are always different levels going on in a text communique. One person can be making what they consider a drollery, while another is in a self-defined 'scientific mode', and another is hearing gun-shots in the distance. There are so many crossed wires occurring it's hardly worth trying to uncross them - at least in a text situation.

 

[Xylo]

I agree. Using such characterizations preclude any real dialog or meaningful communication - and is the equivalent of 'code' for 'not interested in what anyone else really has to say on the matter - fair warning given'. But then there are always different levels going on in a text communique. One person can be making what they consider a drollery, while another is in a self-defined 'scientific mode', and another is hearing gun-shots in the distance. There are so many crossed wires occurring it's hardly worth trying to uncross them - at least in a text situation.

Maybe so. But some of us have come escaped from "born again" environments in which at one point we believed this dogma. So yeah, I don't think I'll hear any argument made that I didn't make at one point myself. I don't think I'll learn anything new, so I'm very dismissive.

 

[stonehart]

hahaha Mike is in full swing.

Going to grab a scotch and watch this thread ..

Keep those gloves off Mike

I didn't say I was an atheist and what I do hate is the assumption that I should believe in J.C. He, or someone similar no doubt existed but I very much doubt he was in any way supernatural. The idea that this executed man came back to life and 'ascended' to heaven is laughable I'm sorry to say. I'm sorry so many people believe it and I'm really really sorry the reason most of them do is cos they have been told to. That is not funny.

That was very cool.

 

[mike]

Sometimes brutal honesty is unavoidable

Disagreeably precise or penetrating: spoke with brutal honesty

But when you are dealing with such deeply offensive material as the excerpts ive posted above, The truth cant help but hurt

 

[stonehart]

Sometimes brutal honesty is unavoidable



But when you are dealing with such deeply offensive material as the excerpts ive posted above, The truth cant help but hurt

I agree but I tend to stay out if these debates these days... it is sort of like beating your head against a brick wall as you know.