Where do you fit in as a believer or skeptic?

[Tyger]

Maybe so. But some of us have come escaped from "born again" environments in which at one point we believed this dogma. So yeah, I don't think I'll hear any argument made that I didn't make at one point myself. I don't think I'll learn anything new, so I'm very dismissive.

Quite so - I was going to list that, as well - that in speaking in such a way many are speaking from biography and that's legitimate - and people have a right to do that. It is, however, equivalent to a woman painting every man as an abuser who suffered at the hands of an abusive husband - or a man seeing every woman as a harlot because of some unfortunate experiences with 'loose women' or a conflicted feeling around female sexuality.

Religion/Mysticism/Spirituality is such a pervasive and insistent phenomenon on this planet - across millennia - that it behooves a look-see. Recall that Shliemann found Troy because he went against the grain of the common thinking of his time that posited that Homer was 'simply a poet spinning stories' and not an historian. In terms of anecdotal evidence, there is more pointing to a spiritual component to life than there is alien spacecraft - yet the former is passed-over and the latter taken seriously (here).

 

[stonehart]

Quite so - I was going to list that, as well - that in speaking in such a way many are speaking from biography and that's legitimate - and people have a right to do that. It is, however, equivalent to a woman painting every man as an abuser who suffered at the hands of an abusive husband - or a man seeing every woman as a harlot because of some unfortunate experiences with 'loose women' or a conflicted feeling around female sexuality.

Religion/Mysticism/Spirituality is such a pervasive and insistent phenomenon on this planet - across millennia - that it behooves a look-see. Recall that Shliemann found Troy because he went against the grain of the common thinking of his time that posited that Homer was 'simply a poet spinning stories' and not an historian. In terms of anecdotal evidence, there is more pointing to a spiritual component to life than there is alien spacecraft - yet the former is passed-over and the latter taken seriously (here).

nice and point taken but spirituality has very little to do with mainstream and fundamentalist religion.

 

[Tyger]

Nice and point taken but spirituality has very little to do with mainstream and fundamentalist religion.

Yes and no - to another time, perhaps? Could be an interesting conversation.

But just to say - the advertising has taken its cue from the phrases being used in the posts here - the ad banner on this thread (for me) now says: "Jesus is Lord - Christian and Single?'

 

[stonehart]

Yes and no - to another time, perhaps? Could be an interesting conversation.

But just to say - the advertising has taken its cue from the phrases being used in the posts here - the ad banner on this thread (for me) now says: "Jesus is Lord - Christian and Single?'

hahahahaha ... get FireFox and plug in add blocker plus... no adds ever mawhahahahahaha

 

[Randall]

Yep, those people are extreme. What's your point? Are you saying that all people of faith are the same as those people?

I have to say, I am completely shocked by the vitriolic prejudice voiced by some in this thread. The Bible is "BS". God is a "fictional character". Jesus is a "zombie prophet". Churches are "weird" places filled with "zombie like" congregations who are "completely nuts".

It's all disrespectful and unnecessarily mean spirited, but I suspect that's kind of the point, childish as it is. Sticks and stones, kids...

You are misrepresenting my position. I've never hated anyone, and there's nothing prejudicial or mean spirited about describing exactly how a real life personal experience makes one feel. I'm a perfectly normal, sane, fair minded, rational person. However the group of devotees I observed could legitimately be said to be defying rational behavior. Worse still there is also every reason to believe they have been indoctrinated to such an extent that they've become delusional. What's also disturbing is that this experience represents only a small sample of those walking among us with a similar worldview. Yet they are convinced they're the ones who are "normal", and it was very unnerving to find myself surrounded by so many of them.

On a personal, intellectual and philosophical level, I don't have a problem with people exploring various belief systems and going about their rituals in a peaceful manner. I even invite them into my home when they come by peddling their religion. Most of them are very friendly and function perfectly well in society. I'd even go so far as to say that they are often the one's I'd bet on to lend a hand to someone in need before those whose beliefs are centered primarily on faithless social status and material gain. So please don't be so presumptuous about my intent. I felt fearful, not hateful. I felt confused, not prejudiced. So you are quite simply wrong. In fact it is you who is demonstrating prejudice. You don't even know me. You might want to start over.

 

[stonehart]

To answer the first question that started this thread, I am an educated non-theist.

 

[Xylo]

Quite so - I was going to list that, as well - that in speaking in such a way many are speaking from biography and that's legitimate - and people have a right to do that. It is, however, equivalent to a woman painting every man as an abuser who suffered at the hands of an abusive husband - or a man seeing every woman as a harlot because of some unfortunate experiences with 'loose women' or a conflicted feeling around female sexuality.

Religion/Mysticism/Spirituality is such a pervasive and insistent phenomenon on this planet - across millennia - that it behooves a look-see. Recall that Shliemann found Troy because he went against the grain of the common thinking of his time that posited that Homer was 'simply a poet spinning stories' and not an historian. In terms of anecdotal evidence, there is more pointing to a spiritual component to life than there is alien spacecraft - yet the former is passed-over and the latter taken seriously (here).

I've never discounted spirituality, see my first post in this thread.

What I discount is dogma. And that is precisely what the abrahamic tradition teaches, and others I'm sure.

 

[mike]

I make no apoligies for my stance

Every surgery is brutal. There is no such thing as an ‘easy procedure.’

This is social surgery, pure and simple. I am here to effect the cure.

Its funny in a way

If saddam hussein had ordered his soldiers to dash little babies to death in front of their mothers, when pol pot comitted genocide we have no trouble rightly condemning such attrocities.
But christians when confronted with the deeds and atrocitys of god, seem to strip a mental gear. They cannot condemn their god for deeds that if done by a mortal man would attract instant condemnation.
We get excuses like "oh one cant know the will of god".

Not forgetting that as creator of the universe he also created hell, the devil is just the first but not the last inmate.
Oblivion for those who dont subscribe to his attrocitys ?, hell no eternal torture ,demands this vengeful entity.

Oblivion is too good for gods detractors, he throws you in his bespoke dungeon and tortures you for eternity..........

Getting back to superman, ok so he has these powers because he comes from krypton his costume was indestructible because it was from Krypton and everything from Krypton was indestructible. The original costume was made from his baby blankets that his mother wrapped him in for the voyage, and Ma Kent UNRAVELLED them, because they were knitted. She she was able to knit them with ordinary knitting needles.
Thats why when he flys into the sun he doesnt fly out naked

This only makes sense when you realise its just a story.

All the contradictions, plot holes and outright violations of biology and physics are reconciled when you realise "its just a story"

 

[Michael Allen]

I put zealous believer because I honestly think that my foundation world-hypothesis is solely driven by my emotions. This is weird because I do try to the best of my abilities to be impartial and to dismiss my first thoughts on a particular explanation of a given phenomena. This goes for all categories asserted or declared (incorrectly) by certain members of this forum although I cannot fault them for doing so because it is human nature to put phenomenon in categories so as to increase the probability of "getting and arranging their future toward the present (yes I said it backwards, and I meant it--think about it. I won't go further because I will botch it up).

I zealously believe that the human future capacity to understand the universe is infinite (it can go on forever and indefinitely to the end of the universe and time itself)...this is a believe that is grounded in rationalism and critical thinking--although I may fail from time to time and have already failed many times in this forum. I believe in the scientific method and experimentation. I believe in playing...No declaration of knowledge is needed, words are symbols, the space shuttle and the experimental nuclear reactor are right in front of us, and they are not words. Knowledge is not something we must figure out or puzzle out of perception--our infrastructure is the living embodiment of that knowledge and needs no further symbolic proclamations to make it "real." Real is real..and now I am rambling.

Last important point...my belief is fact. There is no puzzle...what we have is the world, and we are evolving better and better descriptions of that world--one day we will be what we worship...one day we will be god's--as we are already gods to the ants below are feet. Nevertheless, we will discover great things--and realize the infinity greatness that is physical being (we are just getting to understand physical being, but only to the extend of rudimentary naming and modeling)

 

[Randall]

... Real is real..and now I am rambling ...

Really?

Potential Versus Reality Explained

A kid asks his father for help on a writing assignment.
"Dad, can you tell me the difference between potential and reality?"
His father looks up thoughtfully and says, "I'll demonstrate.

Go ask your mother if she would sleep with Robert Redford for a million dollars.
Then go ask your sister if she would sleep with Brad Pitt for a million dollars.
Come back and tell me what you've learned."

The kid is puzzled, but asks his mother.
"Mom, if someone gave you a million dollars, would you sleep with Robert Redford?"
"Don't tell your father, but, yes, I would."

He then goes to his sister's room.
"Sis, if someone gave you a million dollars, would you sleep with Brad Pitt?"
She replies, "Omigod! Definitely!"

The kid goes back to his father.
"Dad, I think I've figured it out."
"Potentially, we are sitting on $2 million bucks,
but in reality, we're living with two sluts."

​

 

[Red Arrow]

You are misrepresenting my position. I've never hated anyone, and there's nothing prejudicial or mean spirited about describing exactly how a real life personal experience makes one feel. I'm a perfectly normal, sane, fair minded, rational person. However the group of devotees I observed could legitimately be said to be defying rational behavior. Worse still there is also every reason to believe they have been indoctrinated to such an extent that they've become delusional. What's also disturbing is that this experience represents only a small sample of those walking among us with a similar worldview. Yet they are convinced they're the ones who are "normal", and it was very unnerving to find myself surrounded by so many of them.

On a personal, intellectual and philosophical level, I don't have a problem with people exploring various belief systems and going about their rituals in a peaceful manner. I even invite them into my home when they come by peddling their religion. Most of them are very friendly and function perfectly well in society. I'd even go so far as to say that they are often the one's I'd bet on to lend a hand to someone in need before those whose beliefs are centered primarily on faithless social status and material gain. So please don't be so presumptuous about my intent. I felt fearful, not hateful. I felt confused, not prejudiced. So you are quite simply wrong. In fact it is you who is demonstrating prejudice. You don't even know me. You might want to start over.

I stand by what I said. The phrases I quoted were, at best, insensitive. Pointing that out is not evidence of prejudice on my part. Further, pointing out that I don't know you seems a bit obvious and overly dramatic. This is the internet, of course I don't know you, that's why I have to take your words at face value. I'm sorry going to mass gave you the wiggins, but really, would you expect to fully understand everything that was going on there? Is that really something to be fearful of?

 

[Red Arrow]

I don't think any of that is vitriolic. How else would anyone put it, so that it doesn't offend you? Perhaps if I said "The bible is astrological allegory with a dash of history (whose history we're not sure, but it is a retelling of age old stories from societies that pre-date the israelites) and spiced with a splash of myth?" Or if I said that some churches exhibit some of the same characteristics of a riotous mob? Not really sure how I would categorize a dead person that came back to life, other than a zombie. But I'm open to suggestions.

Sure, those descriptors are base. But vitriolic? I guess maybe my atheism gives me a thicker skin when someone else bashes my beliefs.

Oh please...

 

[Red Arrow]

I agree. Using such characterizations preclude any real dialog or meaningful communication - and is the equivalent of 'code' for 'not interested in what anyone else really has to say on the matter - fair warning given'. But then there are always different levels going on in a text communique. One person can be making what they consider a drollery, while another is in a self-defined 'scientific mode', and another is hearing gun-shots in the distance. There are so many crossed wires occurring it's hardly worth trying to uncross them - at least in a text situation.

Totally true. However, it strikes me that a lot of it is being done for effect. It's like the attractive woman who tells the skirt chaser that she doesn't want to be called "babe", to which he replies "sure thing, doll". Wink-wink.

If that's the level of dialogue, then frankly I'm no longer interested.

 

[Tyger]

Totally true. However, it strikes me that a lot of it is being done for effect. It's like the attractive woman who tells the skirt chaser that she doesn't want to be called "babe", to which he replies "sure thing, doll". Wink-wink.

If that's the level of dialogue, then frankly I'm no longer interested.

Good analogy. I, too, have begun to wonder about motives. I am all for an honest debate but when it begins to look a lot like posturing 'for fun' - to see the effect - not worth one's precious posting time.

 

[starise]

I hope most that read this are not so keen to jump on Mikes mindset of God, or at least his adoption of militant atheist views by the likes of Christopher Hitchens and that whole group of men bent on painting a picture of both God and the Bible that although popular, bases much if not all of its information on assumptions. My only request to anyone who really wants the full account of something is to dig deeper and look at all sides of the argument. If you read militant anti-god/no god sentiments ONLY, then you have pretty much only one view on the matter.

I highly recommend investigating the rebuttals of leading apologists. The other side likes to attack and discredit, just to name a few- Creation, The flood, play head games with good god/bad god. Make every attempt to try to show that all Biblical stories originate from somewhere else because of similarities on and on it goes. The grand attempt to use the term "fundamentalist" on every Christian to paint us all in a negative light. And really the term means a lot of different things to a lot of different people, but usually it has the connotation of an ignorant person. If you see me as ignorant, so be it. But you might be very very surprised one day.


One good place I have found which has a constant banter back and forth from Christian and non Christian people is a program in podcast form on the Premier radio network called " Unbelievable". There are many constructive and respectful discussions there between Atheists and Christians. One recent show addressed the question of alien life and how it would be received by the religious crowd.


I'm Mike's polar opposite when it comes to belief. I don't think two people could be further from each other in terms of world view. Mike you have a lot of info to post about how bad God is. Why not be fair and post the parts about the love the God of the Bible shows? How about all the parts where He planned way in advance to send His only son so we could also have freedom and forgiveness. I know you won't do that, instead what you will do is post about how could a loving God send his son as a sacrifice for our sins. Am I right? I don't have a problem with that in terms of an eternal agenda. I mean, if you believe He rose in three days and sits at the right hand of the Father( I know you don't).


My perspective on Mike and ufology and many others on this forum is that you pretty much have your minds made up and some of you are blatantly out to do nothing but discredit any other view. Mike and others hate what they perceive as crusaders but what are you doing with your pro atheist agenda? For the record, I am not in this to fight, only to highly recommend any seeker look much deeper than just what you read from these guys . As someone who is on the opposite view with most of this the other side needs to be entertained IMO.

Ufology you like to say that you like it when people come to your house so you can "set them straight", yet a few months back when I unknowingly started a conversation with you because I thought it was in a public conversation and some of that conversation was religious. You locked me out of that conversation. Who is running from who? I think when you seen I wouldn't back down and buy into your view you pulled the plug. So much for objectivity.


Mike, ufology I like you guys, I really do. I think you both have some great comments and the all things funny forum is a nice place to visit occasionally. I like Cryptozoology. I like to read about the experiences of others and listen to different views on UFOs. I know I'm in the minority here concerning belief,God and such. That doesn't bother me.

To any believer who might be tempted to either be drawn into a fight or a long discussion with these guys my advice to you is this- If the enemy can get you all caught up in this it might prevent you from doing something really productive. Don't waste too much of your time here. These guys have their minds made up. Don't let it zap you of good you could do somewhere else.

In the end it's every mans decision to make. Believer, skeptic, unbeliever, agnostic,theist,Apologist. We all make our own beds.

 

[Tyger]

The grand attempt to use the term "fundamentalist" on every Christian to paint us all in a negative light. And really the term means a lot of different things to a lot of different people, but usually it has the connotation of an ignorant person. If you see me as ignorant, so be it. But you might be very very surprised one day.

I agree in sum - though you must admit that 'fundamentalism' of a kind - aggressive and 'rabid' in all religions, and even 'rationally' - is causing considerable problems globally right now.

One good place I have found which has a constant banter back and forth from Christian and non Christian people is a program in podcast form on the Premier radio network called " Unbelievable". There are many constructive and respectful discussions there between Atheists and Christians. One recent show addressed the question of alien life and how it would be received by the religious crowd.

Sounds interesting.

I'm Mike's polar opposite when it comes to belief. I don't think two people could be further from each other in terms of world view. Mike you have a lot of info to post about how bad God is. Why not be fair and post the parts about the love the God of the Bible shows? How about all the parts where He planned way in advance to send His only son so we could also have freedom and forgiveness. I know you won't do that, instead what you will do is post about how could a loving God send his son as a sacrifice for our sins. Am I right? I don't have a problem with that in terms of an eternal agenda. I mean, if you believe He rose in three days and sits at the right hand of the Father( I know you don't).

Cards on the table: I am an Esotericist, in some parlance I am an Occultist - which makes me the 'spawn of the devil' for some 'fundamentalists'. However, that said, the Christ Being is central to innumerable streams and is an unavoidable Individuality on the path of inner development - to everyone's great relief. [In fact, it is this Being that can be invoked for protection in any 'psychic' situation that goes awry.] Those who seriously meditate and who reach certain degrees of capacity mention the 'Christ Being' encountered (Dalai Lama - Tibetan Buddhist Stream) or the 'Christ Consciousness' (the late Pir Vilayat Inayat Khan - Sufi Stream) - just two examples. These are not 'spiritually minded' folks trying to be ecumenical and inclusive with embracing language - this is an absolute fact encountered in the progress towards refinement of consciousness.

The Rabbi Jesus aside - believe or don't believe what you will - something extraordinary was set in motion 2,000 years ago, nothing seen before or since. For lack of a better word it is called 'Love Incarnate' - and a new dispensation commenced. Maybe a Rabbi was the only way to cloak the mystery in terms that could be understood - it doesn't matter. [Not saying I believe that, just saying.] There was a definite shattering of the ancient 'old gods' - the pagan world of 'the group' was left and the individual began the ascent into what would be our modern sensibility that 'I' am of significance and matter. I could go on - but won't.

Just to say that the coming of this Being - this God - was foretold in every religion in the ancient world. It is said that if you stood outside the world in space at that time and watched with 'spiritual eyes' - one would have seen a detonation-like occurrence take place around the world - lighting up the entire world - when this being 'arrived' (in a sense, in the deeper meaning of all of that).

As for good and bad god - we do describe ourselves for the most part when we describe our gods - but foremost, teased out from a world mythos, are two persistent statements: we are beings endowed with free-will - meaning we are free to create our own heaven and hell 'right here in River City' - and we will not be interfered with - except that we came here to learn Love and can do that only with resistance - and therein lies a whole 'nother mythos to capture that exalted truth.

[Incidentally, there is a line of reasoning that posits that - as enticing as ET visits may be - interference into this earthly evolution (until we have reached a certain point of command in total - 'critical mass') is forbidden. A kind of Star-Trekkie 'Prime Directive' but at a profound level with severe consequences to any who breach that line.]

'Died and was buried and on the third day arose' - is a profound statement of initiation. For some this is a matter of belief, or disbelief or un-belief. Irrelevant. It is either so or not so. In order to determine it's veracity, other capacities must be developed in order to understand. Just like with the beginnings of Algebra certain arithmetic skill-sets must be in place for us to develop facility with algebraic thinking. Same here.

For the record, I am not in this to fight, only to highly recommend any seeker look much deeper than just what you read from these guys . As someone who is on the opposite view with most of this the other side needs to be entertained IMO.

Or at the very least that mere thinking is not sufficient to solve the riddle of the universe. It is puzzling how so many can believe they have the tiger-by-the-tail and understand all the ramifications. Till the moment I pass-on, I will always have a healthy dose of skepticism even with my most fond formulations. In the end, we must all be willing to find we not only have been, but are, The Fool.

Ufology you like to say that you like it when people come to your house so you can "set them straight", yet a few months back when I unknowingly started a conversation with you because I thought it was in a public conversation and some of that conversation was religious. You locked me out of that conversation. Who is running from who? I think when you seen I wouldn't back down and buy into your view you pulled the plug. So much for objectivity.

Also, being so unnerved by the saying of the mass speaks to a lack of cosmopolitanism at the very least. As modern people I think we should be totally at ease with other modes of ritual and expression. I am able to attend a Hindu wedding ceremony of my American Hindu friend with perfect equanimity and even understanding. Same when I attend a student's Bar/Bat Mitzvah. Viewing such as being around 'delusional' people strikes me as curiously 'fundamentalist' in fact - an intolerance is being displayed - no different from religious intolerance between religious people.

To any believer who might be tempted to either be drawn into a fight or a long discussion with these guys my advice to you is this - If the enemy can get you all caught up in this it might prevent you from doing something really productive. Don't waste too much of your time here. These guys have their minds made up. Don't let it zap you of good you could do somewhere else.

Here I both agree and slightly don't. I don't believe any human being is 'the enemy' - nor does any line of thinking become 'the enemy'. We all suffer from the same modes at one point or another - be they clothed in religious or scientific or philosophic thought. It's the thinking - the process - that should be observed - and we can observe our thinking - proof that we are not our thoughts - but something 'else'. [Thinking is not the highest capacity a human being can achieve - though one would think that if thinking is as far as one has gone.]

It is important to be able to identify when there is seriousness of intent to have a meaningful conversation. If that is not there, then one's time really is being wasted.

In the end it's every man's decision to make. Believer, skeptic, unbeliever, agnostic, theist, apologist. We all make our own beds.

Right-Oh!

 

[Randall]

I stand by what I said. The phrases I quoted were, at best, insensitive. Pointing that out is not evidence of prejudice on my part. Further, pointing out that I don't know you seems a bit obvious and overly dramatic. This is the internet, of course I don't know you, that's why I have to take your words at face value. I'm sorry going to mass gave you the wiggins, but really, would you expect to fully understand everything that was going on there? Is that really something to be fearful of?

Is being in a crowd of seemingly normal strangers who suddenly break into a cult ritual something to be fearful of? I guess if you're part of the religion there's nothing to be concerned about. But fear is an involuntary response to strange and unusual situations. My rational mind kept me calm because nobody was acting violent or aggressive. Perhaps with repeated exposure I would become as desensitized as the rest of the congregation. But in the meantime, if you can't understand how someone completely unaccustomed to that behavior might feel, and instead of empathizing, fly off with accusations of hate mongering and prejudice, then perhaps my fears were more justified than I thought. So fine, stand by your prejudicial false remarks. You're just proving yourself to be a hypocrite.

Furthermore if you really believe your allegations to be true, then I deserve to be banned from the forum and I invite you to lodge a formal complaint with the site owner and the moderators. Otherwise I'll kindly ask that you refrain from further attacks on my character. I don't hide my identity here and will defend my reputation.

 

[Red Arrow]

Is being in a crowd of seemingly normal strangers who suddenly break into a cult ritual something to be fearful of? I guess if you're part of the religion there's nothing to be concerned about. But fear is an involuntary response to strange and unusual situations. My rational mind kept me calm because nobody was acting violent or aggressive. Perhaps with repeated exposure I would become as desensitized as the rest of the congregation. But in the meantime, if you can't understand how someone completely unaccustomed to that behavior might feel, and instead of empathizing, fly off with accusations of hate mongering and prejudice, then perhaps my fears were more justified than I thought. So fine, stand by your prejudicial false remarks. You're just proving yourself to be a hypocrite.

Furthermore if you really believe your allegations to be true, then I deserve to be banned from the forum and I invite you to lodge a formal complaint with the site owner and the moderators. Otherwise I'll kindly ask that you refrain from further attacks on my character. I don't hide my identity here and will defend my reputation.

Are you kidding me with this?... Laughable...

 

[Randall]

Are you kidding me with this?... Laughable...

Like I said at the outset, I recognize how someone who is desensitized to the behavior of a mass of religious ritual can think that an outsider's fear is unwarranted, even humorous. However accusing them of hate and prejudice is unwarranted, and your continued insensitivity only further validates my point. Honestly, you'd be further ahead to retract your comment, apologize, and try another approach. Most civilized nations stopped prosecuting and publicly shaming heretics a long time ago. Do you really want to go there? Or are going to go off now and find some more stones to hurl?

 

[Red Arrow]

Like I said at the outset, I recognize how someone who is desensitized to the behavior of a mass of religious ritual can think that an outsider's fear is unwarranted, even humorous. However accusing them of hate and prejudice is unwarranted, and your continued insensitivity only further validates my point. Honestly, you'd be further ahead to retract your comment, apologize, and try another approach. Most civilized nations stopped prosecuting and publicly shaming heretics a long time ago. Do you really want to go there? Or are going to go off now and find some more stones to hurl?

Yep. Still laughing.