Why do we still demand that....

[bogie13p]

I think those who do not reproduce by choice do not really need to explain themselves - unless they are an only child and their mother is looking for grandchildren. In that case, I do feel a lot of sympathy for you.

I am an only child and I am sure my mother-in-law would love a grandkid, but what does that have to do with having sympathy for people like me? I don't need anyones sympathy. I chose this life. It is what I WANT, it wasn't some accident. I love this choice. I wouldn't get to do half the stuff I get to if I would have had a kid, or I would have had to wait till I am too old to enjoy it.

My friends love their kids, don't get me wrong, but they also tell me they wish they had the freedoms I do. My husband and I travel internationally a lot. He is from England so it is very important. I know it would still be possible if we had a kid, but I wouldnt want to. Honestly, I always cringe when I see people bringing small children/babies onto a really long international flight and would really hate it, if they were to sit anywhere near me. And if that makes me a dick, then fine, I'm a dick.

 

[CapnG]

Why should I care?

Indeed. Actually, as an only child of an only child I find it oddly romantic to think I could be the last of my line. The period at the end of the sentence that is my family's entry in the book of history, as it were.

Yeah, I have weird thoughts.

 

[Brain Matter?]

Well to be honest, the world would likely be a better place if more people did what you have done... evaluate themselves and where they are at in life and what their priorities are before jumping into parenting. If anything, I think that speaks very highly for you.

Thank you aNorthernSoul, im sorry that this has turned into abit of a witch hunt against you

Everything i would say CapnG has already said

 

[MrChud]

Been married 14 years and the only child we have answers to "kitty, kitty!"

 

[aNorthernSoul]

Thank you aNorthernSoul, im sorry that this has turned into abit of a witch hunt against you

Everything i would say CapnG has already said

Did it? I didn't take it that way, just a need for more clarity, or perhaps a misunderstanding. I'm all good though, message boards are about sharing ideas and opinions. I suppose it's just like comments made about the paranormal, it's the whole idea of putting things in boxes and being binary about topics coming into play if it did. I think the other culprit is that so much of the Western world is very much about competition at it's core. I actually don't believe in competing with anyone but yourself and your track record. I guess that can cause me to be hard to understand at times and may make me come off as cold or condemning when it's usually quite the opposite. Either way though, you're welcome.

 

[AnnetteMarie]

I am an only child and I am sure my mother-in-law would love a grandkid, but what does that have to do with having sympathy for people like me? I don't need anyones sympathy. ...

I believe the meaning you attached to my statement is not at all what I was thinking as I typed it.

people whose parents are looking for grandchildren can be under a lot of pressure. keeping a balance between respect for a parent who is badgering you to have kids and asserting your right to choose can be very difficult.

I am willing to bet that out there are lots of kids whose birth came about from an effort to please future grandparents. and more than a few of those kids would have been better off with other parents.

choosing not to be a parent does not make you a dick. people who badger you to explain yourself are the dicks. I merely wrote down some random thoughts speculating as to the underlying thoughts of those who do, and those who do not, have children.

 

[Brain Matter?]

Did it? I didn't take it that way, just a need for more clarity, or perhaps a misunderstanding. I'm all good though, message boards are about sharing ideas and opinions. I suppose it's just like comments made about the paranormal, it's the whole idea of putting things in boxes and being binary about topics coming into play if it did. I think the other culprit is that so much of the Western world is very much about competition at it's core. I actually don't believe in competing with anyone but yourself and your track record. I guess that can cause me to be hard to understand at times and may make me come off as cold or condemning when it's usually quite the opposite. Either way though, you're welcome.

I dont think you come across as cold or condemning, you have kids and i(we) dont so you know more about what it feels than i do.

BUt....

Just look at the posts, it proves the point of my thred.
People feel like they have to justify when they dont have kids. (its a touchy subject and it shoulnt be)

 

[truthseeker]

Being a parent these days is very tough. It's a huge, enormous challenge, commitment and responsibility. I can completely understand why many people feel this way and shy away from becoming a parent. I am a parent myself and I speak from experience and I can tell you that it's an enormous effort to balance your work and family life and I largely blame our society for this. I often wonder what it must have been like to have lived in the 50s when a wife stayed home, cooked and took care of the kids while husband went to work and supported the family. It's rarely the case anymore. Now both must put in long hours and deal with a ton of stress just to make ends meet. There is barely any time for anything, let alone parenthood.
I do have to mention though that having a child changes you quite a bit in a positive way. The joy that you experience when your child is born or when your child laughs can only be described by those who are parents - it can even melt the heart of some of the toughest dudes out there. In a lot of ways you look at your child as an extension of yourself -if your child hurts you hurt, if you child is happy you're happy. It's hard to describe the feeling. Your focus in life changes completely. You definately become more responsible and start planning ahead. I also think that in a lot of ways you become tougher because of constant challenges that come with being a parent.

 

[DrLogic]

I dunno what is meant by 'too many people in the world', unless the person coming to such a judgment is happy to be at the front of the line for the exit then i don't see any way of making such a statement without a large amount of hubris attached.

This is the nature of fight or flight in evolution, if there were not the resources for 6bn people in the world, it doesn't take a genius to work out that there wouldn't be 6bn people in the world.

Obviously resources fluctuate in different area over time, and as harsh a reality as it is, people die from it. Everyone looks out for them and their's and the size of the population takes care of itself.

And if any proponent of passive eugenics honestly believes that all the wrongs of the world will flutter away with the advent of a lower population then I think they will be in for a surprise should it ever come to pass. IMO the vast majority of problems we face as planet are due to the hunger for power over others and the inequality that pervasively follows it.

 

[Will Penguin]

I dunno what is meant by 'too many people in the world', unless the person coming to such a judgment is happy to be at the front of the line for the exit then i don't see any way of making such a statement without a large amount of hubris attached.

Well, it's quite clear there's isn't any shortage. Which is why nobody should feel bad about not adding more. Hubris has nothing to do with it.

*shrug*

 

[AnnetteMarie]

people need to do what makes them happy, without being forced into fitting a mold of what makes their critics happy. if you are not causing harm to anyone by making yourself happy, then go for it.

 

[AnnetteMarie]

... I often wonder what it must have been like to have lived in the 50s when a wife stayed home, cooked and took care of the kids while husband went to work and supported the family. It's rarely the case anymore....

amen to that! it wasn't so hot. people were still people back then. lots of women wanted something more, so their doctors gave them valium until they stopped thinking there had to be more to life...

single moms were looked down on, single dads often had to 'give up' their children because everybody knew a man couldn't be both parents, although the single moms often worked two jobs and kept the kids...

yup, let's go back and take a good look at the 50's, where all the bad things were hidden better than they are now.

been there, done that. let's move forward and on to better things.

 

[DrLogic]

Well, it's quite clear there's isn't any shortage. Which is why nobody should feel bad about not adding more. Hubris has nothing to do with it.

*shrug*

Well I'd have to respectively disagree. I think it's very easy to reiterate such tired cliques without considering the implications of the statement, however, i would be fascinated to see how agreeable one is with it if the day ever came that someone across the room was making that very same point, while staring in your direction...

 

[AnnetteMarie]

funny. my hubby tells me that as he and his first wife announced the impending arrival of their second child, his father looked at his mother and she said something like...
it's only fair, they are just reproducing themselves, and the father said he didn't think that was strickly necessary, while looking at my hubby. (before he was my hubby, natch)

 

[Jonah]

I'm curious if the desire to -not- reproduce as a "choice" (for some) isn't similar to the "choice" one makes as to their true sexuality. It seems the problem is that the overwhelming need to reproduce is seen as a natural instinct and a stated "choice" by some to not reproduce is therefor unnatural - the other. An other that in a broad sense may be destined for extinction. Except, and I say again -for some-, it wasn't really ever a true "choice" - even though they may have thought so.

Does it seem logical to suspect that the drive felt by an individual to reproduce (or not) could be a DNA thing, an urge then naturally found stronger in some than in others?

 

[CapnG]

This is the nature of fight or flight in evolution, if there were not the resources for 6bn people in the world, it doesn't take a genius to work out that there wouldn't be 6bn people in the world.

So if the limit is 7bn people, might we not want to slow down at the 6bn mark?

Capacity is capacity. Trouble is we often we don't know we've reached it until after we've passed it, by which point we're fucked. What ever happened to "better safe than sorry"?

However, the very notion that somehow if a person wants to refrain from breeding (and tells anyone else who feels the same way that they should feel no shame) somehow qualifies as "passive eugenics" is something I find ridiculously sensationalistic and just serves to illustrate yet another completely unwarranted societal criticism. How anyone makes the leap from "He doesn't want kids" to "He doesn't want YOU to have kids" uttelry eludes me.

Bottom line is this: humanity isn't going extinct any time soon (short of a massive, planetary event) so no one's going to notice if a few of us decide not to replace ourselves.

 

[AnnetteMarie]

... What ever happened to "better safe than sorry"?

...

a little-known condom factory which went out of business shortly after the baby boom...

 

[Jonah]

Poking around, many recommend "The Selfish Gene" by Richard Dawkins as a good read on the point I made earlier.

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[TClaeys]

people need to do what makes them happy, without being forced into fitting a mold of what makes their critics happy. if you are not causing harm to anyone by making yourself happy, then go for it.

I think that sums it up. I have two kids. And there are moments with children that cannot be adequately described as far as something experientially awe-inspiring. And equally nerve-racking. This is no endorsement for having children because quite simply some people shouldn't. There is no good reason a life cannot be fulfilled to your satisfaction without having kids. Hell, it might(read >>would) be easier.

But still some might argue that down the road, perhaps nearing the end, one might regret not passing along the essence of yourself. Of course by that time, you have probably convinced yourself "who gives a rats ass!!". And that might be totally valid, but I do sometimes wonder "what if I hadn't". I don't know.

But what we're really talking about is society. And that sucks to be told what you should do and how everyone will value you in society. It would be great to get away from this mentality. But it's difficult if not impossible.
Society demands the ridiculous from how-much-money-you-make to what-you-look-like to do-you-smoke to how-many-kids. I'm sorry, .. what?? This matters to you why??

But back to Annette's point. Be happy. Live your life. Fuck everyone else and their worthless opinion. (remember the part about being happy and living you life?). Oh yeah, and be a good little boy or girl. (That was her point right?)

You could also look at it as a conspiracy. All those parents are looking at you, almost prompting you to have children. Because once you become "one of them" you'll be saying to yourself, "What the F? am I doing??". And then everyone will laugh. But maybe that was just a dream I had. The "back to school" week has altered my mental state a bit.

 

[DamnDirtyApe]

Well, it's quite clear there's isn't any shortage. Which is why nobody should feel bad about not adding more. Hubris has nothing to do with it.

*shrug*

I don't think we have too may people, rather we have too many of the wrong people (poor/uneducated) having too many children. Populations in all first world nations are in decline. Only America, because of illegal immigration, has a steady fertility rate of 2.1 All of the other first world nations are losing people faster than they are replacing them.

The countries of the world with growing populations are typically Muslim and generally poor third world places. As those countries become more advanced and cosmopolitan their populations eventually decline as well though.


Look at places like Hong Kong, Italy, South Korea, Spain, Japan, Taiwan etc. all below 1.3!! That means their population is dropping by nearly half every generation.

CIA - The World Factbook -- Country Comparison :: Total fertility rate