James Carrion, "The Rosetta Deception," July 20, 2014

[Wade]

Welcome to the forums, Stanton.
You can probably skip the Intro

 

[DissectionStalker]

If it was bio then where was the testimony of men in white bio suits running around? Why only three little coffins? Why didn't Brazel get sick? Why send in your top scientists without bio gear? Why guard all of it without bio gear? More likely the base did bio testing that got out of hand to have cause local illness.

My reply is here:

Stanton T. Friedman — August 3, 2014 | Page 4 | The Paracast Community Forums

It was an Alien flu that passes through bio suits, obviously.

Exactly! LOLLOLOLOLOL

 

[junius]

But I'm still struggling. I simply cannot find sufficient data from Soviet archives to demonstrate Stalin / soviet foreign intelligence spent any time actively pursuing these ghost rockets. If Mr Carrion's theory is correct, then we may have to entertain the following scenario's:

1) Stalin knew early on it was a U.S strategic disinformation project so didn't waste time chasing it

2) The ghost rockets were soviet (At least in Northern Europe)

3) All soviet archives relating to soviet foreign intelligence activities to investigate the ghost rockets have been destroyed

Or - as I think Mr Carrion is suggesting, that the disinformation ghost rocket operation was so successful Stalin simply didn't know what to do, combined with the defection of whats his name, it perhaps set soviet foreign intelligence back years, remember - the US were the only power with the bomb at the time and really wanted to keep it that way, in light of Stalins five year plan, the US had to mount such a strategic counter intelligence / disinformation project to put soviet foreign intelligence on the back foot. It does seem that soviet foreign intelligence gains and especially considering finally getting the bomb, were more a result of good luck from 'walk ins' than it was from an aggressive soviet foreign intelligence program.

I hope that as an outsider I have been able to contribute to this discussion. But, I have to say. Listening again to Mr Carrions interview on the show, hearing what he said about his time at MUFON and his experiences, he perhaps does leave himself open to critics who will argue he has an 'axe to grind'...His opponents may argue that it was because of his experiences whilst at MUFON, he went out with an agenda to put forward an idea to discredit the UFO theory. I personally don't subscribe to this point of view, but Mr Carrions critics may well do.

Junius.

 

[James Carrion]

Obviously not for the purpose of selling a book that you now offering free online. What purpose does that leave? Visibility for the sake of visibility itself. Only you can determine what your reasons are for seeking visibility.

Yes, Stan can certainly defend himself, but you won't take no for an answer and thus continue your stream of public criticisms and abuse of him. I'll continue pointing this out until you decide to stop doing it.

Let me get this straight Constance - Stanton Friedman PUBLICLY called my book disinformation before he read it, PUBLICLY said I am full of bologna before reading it, PUBLICLY refuses to retract his criticisms and PUBLICLY uses the same debunking tactics he calls others out on when I defend my research, and I am berating him? And for what end? Publicity? Please.

So if you want to point out a wrong - then point out the irresponsible behavior of a man who can't practice what he preaches and spare me the "poor Stan" monologue. Stan doesn't want a debate because has no evidence to present of his own to counter any of the documented evidence I have in my book. While I spent the last five years of my life actively researching and digging through archives, Stan has been making the rounds of the UFO talk circuit regurgitating the same data from decades ago and without lifting a finger from his research armchair, has the gall to belittle my work.

 

[James Carrion]

But I'm still struggling. I simply cannot find sufficient data from Soviet archives to demonstrate Stalin / soviet foreign intelligence spent any time actively pursuing these ghost rockets. If Mr Carrion's theory is correct, then we may have to entertain the following scenario's:

I hope that as an outsider I have been able to contribute to this discussion. But, I have to say. Listening again to Mr Carrions interview on the show, hearing what he said about his time at MUFON and his experiences, he perhaps does leave himself open to critics who will argue he has an 'axe to grind'...His opponents may argue that it was because of his experiences whilst at MUFON, he went out with an agenda to put forward an idea to discredit the UFO theory. I personally don't subscribe to this point of view, but Mr Carrions critics may well do.
Junius.

Check out the following link: The Pond (intelligence organization) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia , then look in the Mitrokhin archive for any reference to this secret organization. Just because it is not in the Mitrokhin Archive does not mean it never existed or happened.

As for an axe to grind, it is not with MUFON, or the throngs of believers that frequent UFO conferences, it is with the powers that have perpetrated the UFO myth through deception.

 

[manxman]

I think you are still just another cog in the government machine, nothing ''ex'' intel about you.
You are just apart of a new myth making apparatus, another new layer of pseudo debunkery, and no doubt your literary master-piece's will be quoted many time's at forum's like randie's, where they also like you just have, describe the people with an interest in UFO's/UAP's disparagingly as ''believers''.

 

[James Carrion]

I think you are still just another cog in the government machine, nothing ''ex'' intel about you.
You are just apart of a new myth making apparatus, another new layer of pseudo debunkery, and no doubt your literary master-piece's will be quoted many time's at forum's like randie's, where they also like you just have, describe the people with an interest in UFO's/UAP's disparagingly as ''believers''.

I can seen no one moderates this forum for trolls...

 

[Gene Steinberg]

We do, but we don't stop people for every little statement.

 

[James Carrion]

We do, but we don't stop people for every little statement.

Read all maxnman's comments on this thread and please let me know what the threshold for trolling is ...

 

[Gene Steinberg]

OK, let's just all sit back, take a breath, and get this discussion back on course. No personal asides. Just the issues please!

 

[Vance]

James has challenged some people to rethink their positions and that is always a good thing. Stan was out of character when he judged a book by even less than it's cover.

 

[mike_thoth]

Hi everyone,

I think Gene is right on when he asks for clam. Why are people getting so animated on this thread? It's this kind of vitriol that keeps people away from the subject.

I'm neutral on UaP, we must all be, belief is the enemy's.

I listened to Mr. Friedman's interview on the Paracast twice recently as I've been driving cross the UK for work.

Just off the bat, Friedman did not dismiss Carrions work as Baloney. Nor did he accuse it as being disinformation. He tool the scientific method approach. Based on his previous experience with Carrion, he took an educated guess that his book MAY be seen to be baloney.

Secondly he did not tell people live that Carrions book was disinformation. What he said was this, and I accept I am paraphrasing;

He said re Carrions book, "we may find that the book itself is disinformation" (paraphrasing). The baloney comment followed the same template. He acknowledged many times that he had not read the book so did not feel comfortable commenting on specifics when not versed in both sides of an argument. An approach Carrion would not doubt agree given the poor state of official "Ufology".

Friedman was careful not to fall into such accusations, if he offered opinion, he labelled it, end of case.

I don't agree with many of Mr. Friedman's conclusions. But it's the same for Carrion. Friedman did not make these accusations during the interview.

I also accept Carrions frustrations regarding the debate he wants but don't like the accusations. Surely this energy can map into the field rather than arguments like these on forum.

Hope the discussions go well.
P.s. Sorry for any typos.

 

[Constance]

Hi everyone,

I think Gene is right on when he asks for clam. Why are people getting so animated on this thread? It's this kind of vitriol that keeps people away from the subject.

I'm neutral on UaP, we must all be, belief is the enemy's.

I listened to Mr. Friedman's interview on the Paracast twice recently as I've been driving cross the UK for work.

Just off the bat, Friedman did not dismiss Carrions work as Baloney. Nor did he accuse it as being disinformation. He tool the scientific method approach. Based on his previous experience with Carrion, he took an educated guess that his book MAY be seen to be baloney.

Secondly he did not tell people live that Carrions book was disinformation. What he said was this, and I accept I am paraphrasing;

He said re Carrions book, "we may find that the book itself is disinformation" (paraphrasing). The baloney comment followed the same template. He acknowledged many times that he had not read the book so did not feel comfortable commenting on specifics when not versed in both sides of an argument. An approach Carrion would not doubt agree given the poor state of official "Ufology".

Friedman was careful not to fall into such accusations, if he offered opinion, he labelled it, end of case.

I don't agree with many of Mr. Friedman's conclusions. But it's the same for Carrion. Friedman did not make these accusations during the interview.

I also accept Carrions frustrations regarding the debate he wants but don't like the accusations. Surely this energy can map into the field rather than arguments like these on forum.

Hope the discussions go well.
P.s. Sorry for any typos.

Thank you for clarifying what SF said. I think JC has been overreacting, along with several of his supporters in the recent anti-SF campaign here. I agree that this 'issue' should be dropped.

 

[James Carrion]

Hi everyone,


Just off the bat, Friedman did not dismiss Carrions work as Baloney. Nor did he accuse it as being disinformation. He tool the scientific method approach. Based on his previous experience with Carrion, he took an educated guess that his book MAY be seen to be baloney.

Maybe Gene can comment here on the accuracy of this quote from Stan from the interview so I don't have to waste my time listening to it all over again. "How about this as a prediction, the book itself is disinformation"

Now let's examine how scientific that statement is:

First the Merriam-Webster definition of "prediction" = the act of saying what will happen in the future
Second the Merriam-Webster definition of "disinformation" = false information that is given to people in order to make them believe something or to hide the truth

So what Stan is saying is plain and simple "I predict that the information in this book is not factual, it is meant to mislead and to hide the truth"

Now look up two other definitions for me - "libel" and "slander" ....

 

[James Carrion]

Thank you for clarifying what SF said. I think JC has been overreacting, along with several of his supporters in the recent anti-SF campaign here. I agree that this 'issue' should be dropped.

I will be happy to drop it when Stan issues a public apology ...

 

[Gene Steinberg]

I would have to listen to the show again to get the precise quotes. I'm not like that woman on the TV show "Unforgettable" who remembers everything. So I'll depend on you listeners to get it right for me.

 

[James Carrion]

I would have to listen to the show again to get the precise quotes. I'm not like that woman on the TV show "Unforgettable" who remembers everything. So I'll depend on you listeners to get it right for me.

1 minute 12 minutes into the interview: "Judging on the past, unless James Carrion has changed a great deal, which I doubt, I think we'll find that the book itself is disinformation. How's that for a prediction."

Interpretation: "His past information was meant to mislead and hide the truth and I predict that the information in this book is not factual and meant to mislead and to hide the truth"

Stan has no proof that either my past research or present research is anything but factual and calling it disinformation is defamatory. Now I have no interest in suing Stan for libel or slander in either the US or Canada ...I would rather he prove my research is disinformation in a public debate...and thinks twice before he puts his foot in his mouth again...

 

[Constance]

I will be happy to drop it when Stan issues a public apology ...

I personally don't think he owes you one. Do you think you'll get one by continuing to prosecute your imagined case against him in this forum?

 

[James Carrion]

I personally don't think he owes you one. Do you think you'll get one by continuing to prosecute your imagined case against him in this forum?

Nope, I don't have any illusions of an apology coming out of his mouth...or that he will embrace the entire scientific method...or that he will stop his debunking tactics...or pooh poohing anything that threatens the Roswell sacred cow...that's Stan...

 

[manxman]

Constance.

He hasnt had one since he started his pursuit of mr Friedman in 2008, 6 years of whining that 'stan' hadnt read his evidence before calling dis-info merchant, yada yada.
Just maybe Stan has been dealing with government myth maker's like Oberg et al for years, maybe as a writer Stan knows and understands the volume of actual writing a freelance writer/journalist has to sell to survive, maybe Stan realised quickly that in Carrions case, he would be homeless and hungry in weeks if he had to live on what he sold, same as with the other small debunking army of ex government force's who have given themselve's the title of freelance journalist's, Pinty et al, it is pretty obvious their main incomes come from undisclosed source's.