9/11

[CapnG]

And of what relevance are the black boxes?

Even for you Korman, that's an entire other dimension of obtuse. Yes indeed, of what relevance could the onboard flight recorders POSSIBLY be? Besides providing first hand, up-to-the-minute details of every action taken and word spoken during those flights, I mean.

No, you're right, how utterly pointless...

 

[KorMan]

Besides providing first hand, up-to-the-minute details of every action taken and word spoken during those flights, I mean.

And that would prove what? We know what happened, we know how it happened, and we know why it happened. Do you believe that the boxes would change any of that? Ergo what relevance would they have to the events of 9/11?

And what sort of conspiracy would be involved if the boxes were indeed not found? Were they removed from the planes prior to takeoff? Maybe they were teleported out of the planes by Reptilian scoutcrafts. Or could it be that the explosions were actually bombs in the buildings and the planes were just holograms projected by the CIA?

IAC, the boxes are designed to survive a plane crash, not a plane crashing into a building, followed by a hellacious fireball, followed by being buried under thousands of tons of wreckage. It's amazing that anything survived.

 

[Aaron LeClair]

Have you considered that he mat be dead? There are a lot of reports that he passed away in 2002 due to liver failure. I can't confirm if the man is alive or dead by there was a great deal of info looked into his passing in late 2002. No question, without a doubt the "confession video" that we have all seen is NOT Bin Laden. That has been confirmed by experts in the photo and audio field. I do not know if he is alive though, but strong rumors (and we must take rumors for what they are so I understand questions) that he passed away already.

Yes, I've considered it. I haven't and won't conclude it til proven though.

 

[Aaron LeClair]

What's this about no bodies? Official report shows where they were found. I suppose one could say it's all lies. I'm not one of them. Yet at least.


Norad tapes have been released btw. I've listened to them.

 

[cottonzway]

Yes, I've considered it. I haven't and won't conclude it til proven though.

Have you seen the Bin Laden confession tape and what are your thoughts of it?

 

[Rick Deckard]

And what sort of conspiracy would be involved if the boxes were indeed not found? Were they removed from the planes prior to takeoff? Maybe they were teleported out of the planes by Reptilian scoutcrafts. Or could it be that the explosions were actually bombs in the buildings and the planes were just holograms projected by the CIA?

It's so disappointing to have someone like KorMan on these boards.

Personally, I joined these forums in the hope that I could have a sensible discussion about all sorts of fringe topics with like-minded individuals. I never really expected to get the 'truth' but I find it a real shame that some people don't want to talk about specifics but would rather just poke fun at the 'loony conspiracy nuts' rather than try to understand their perspective.

I really don't understand what drives people like KorMan to do this. Why are they deliberately trying to stifle debate about 'alternative realities' by maintaining an atmosphere of 'ridicule'? Why do they find alternatives to the official explanations so threatening?

They are just theories. There *is* evidence to support some of these theories and other theories are purely speculation.

But so what? There's nothing wrong with exploring possibilities. There's nothing wrong with putting forward ideas for discussion.

We all know what the *official explanations* are KorMan - we don't need you to keep reminding us.

These forums are about the *alternatives* to the official explanations. If you have nothing new to say then why bother?

 

[CapnG]

And that would prove what? We know what happened, we know how it happened, and we know why it happened.

No, we don't, that's kind of the point. On the one hand we have the government sanctioned explanaition and on the other we have... well take your pick really: thermite, satellite lasers, UFOs, holograms and on and on. Black boxes would have provided conclusive proof of what ACTUALLY happened. That's the single most important thing about the whole 9/11 incident vis-a-vis the whole conspiracy debate and I'm frankly dismayed that you can't see that (although by no account am I suprised).

Now at THIS point in time their release (assuming they survived) would indeed be pointless, conspiracy theorists would quickly claim the recordings were fabricated and return to their "space beam" jibberish. No doubt there are many conspiracy theorists who currently believe the boxes were found and are being withheld (or were subsequently destroyed) to hide the "truth". Both scenarios are as depressing as they are predictable.

 

[cottonzway]

No, we don't, that's kind of the point. On the one hand we have the government sanctioned explanaition and on the other we have... well take your pick really: thermite, satellite lasers, UFOs, holograms and on and on. Black boxes would have provided conclusive proof of what ACTUALLY happened. That's the single most important thing about the whole 9/11 incident vis-a-vis the whole conspiracy debate and I'm frankly dismayed that you can't see that (although by no account am I suprised).

Now at THIS point in time their release (assuming they survived) would indeed be pointless, conspiracy theorists would quickly claim the recordings were fabricated and return to their "space beam" jibberish. No doubt there are many conspiracy theorists who currently believe the boxes were found and are being withheld (or were subsequently destroyed) to hide the "truth". Both scenarios are as depressing as they are predictable.

One thing that is key to understanding views of those "space beam" folks is most of them don't at all believe what they are saying. They aren't misguided or even loons. The real core ones are doing it because it is their job. The main example being the one who used to work for daddy Bush. Look how fast it went from holograms to space beams. I think it is important to make it clear that those types of people have an agenda to carry out disinformation because they are clear as day agents. Like you said, they are going to move on to jibberish but I think it is important to note that they aren't crazies but are paid for their ignorant sounding conspiracies.

 

[Aaron LeClair]

Have you seen the Bin Laden confession tape and what are your thoughts of it?

I've seen multiple tapes of Bin Laden. So far as I know it hasn't been proven to be anyone other than him. I'm not sure if what I am thinking of as the "confession" tape is the same one you are referring to however. I figure you are referring to the first one he released after the attack. If so, different experts say different things like always. I would have to re-read up on the arguments against the legitimacy in order to have anything better to say.

If you have a link to the "experts" and proof you mentioned, feel free to post and I'll have a look at it. It's been awhile since I read about it and the details aren't readily available in my mind.

 

[Aaron LeClair]

Just thought of something. If one is prone to conspiracy theories, one could say that Bin Laden could have made a tape with a look alike in order to get people to conclude he didn't do the attacks and then add fuel to conspiracy fires. Be funny if Bin Laden framed the US gov. no? Ok, funny is a bad choice of words. Sorry. So someone could say that even if Bin is proven to not be in the vid, doesn't mean he wasn't part of the attacks. Conspiracies can run either way.

 

[cottonzway]

I've seen multiple tapes of Bin Laden. So far as I know it hasn't been proven to be anyone other than him. I'm not sure if what I am thinking of as the "confession" tape is the same one you are referring to however. I figure you are referring to the first one he released after the attack. If so, different experts say different things like always. I would have to re-read up on the arguments against the legitimacy in order to have anything better to say.

If you have a link to the "experts" and proof you mentioned, feel free to post and I'll have a look at it. It's been awhile since I read about it and the details aren't readily available in my mind.

I won't do your work for you my friend because you won't understand anything that way. This is important my friend and YOU need to look at this yourself. Spend some time looking up the "confession" tape that is used by those who support this notion that it was OBL saying he caused 9/11. The only way you are going to know any better is to really look at this yourself. Google is your friend.

 

[interestedINitall]

It's so disappointing to have someone like KorMan on these boards.

Personally, I joined these forums in the hope that I could have a sensible discussion about all sorts of fringe topics with like-minded individuals. I never really expected to get the 'truth' but I find it a real shame that some people don't want to talk about specifics but would rather just poke fun at the 'loony conspiracy nuts' rather than try to understand their perspective.

I really don't understand what drives people like KorMan to do this. Why are they deliberately trying to stifle debate about 'alternative realities' by maintaining an atmosphere of 'ridicule'? Why do they find alternatives to the official explanations so threatening?

They are just theories. There *is* evidence to support some of these theories and other theories are purely speculation.

But so what? There's nothing wrong with exploring possibilities. There's nothing wrong with putting forward ideas for discussion.

We all know what the *official explanations* are KorMan - we don't need you to keep reminding us.

These forums are about the *alternatives* to the official explanations. If you have nothing new to say then why bother?

I couldn't agree with you more.

That's why I'm still a bit puzzled as to why, when I asked "Okay, what happens now?" out here, a certain individual went insane and told me that I had ". . .no knowledge of the event." A degree of irony in all that being that I actually smelled dead bodies and burning synthetics for about a month, dealt with armed soldiers in the streets and weathered numerous subsequent anthrax scares while this person probably just watched planes hit buildings over and over on his big-screen "tee-vee" in some godforsaken suburb (that person is safely tucked away in my ignore box now and is not a problem anymore).

Anyway. . .

I'd really like to know what people who feel it was a government conspiracy would like to see happen now. Let's say that everything they're theorizing about it is indeed true, who's indicted, how, etc. Are these people alarmed by the fact that Benito Giuliani, who would have been a major player in a conspiracy (if one existed) is now running for president?

As I've previously written, I suspect that the person who went insane at the mere suggestion of resolution is a "high priest" of conspiracy, a zealot of deceptions who loves the heady thrill of "knowing the truth" so much that any sign of the truth actually coming to light sends him into a panic.

I don't presume to speak for KorMan, nor do I care to peel the onion of his "problem" (it runs deep I suspect) but perhaps - just perhaps - his tone of ridicule stems from dealing with people who seem to love the conspiracy more than the truth. That's by no means an excuse - just a possible explanation.

If anyone would like to field that "What happens now?" question I'm still quite interested.

 

[Aaron LeClair]

I won't do your work for you my friend because you won't understand anything that way. This is important my friend and YOU need to look at this yourself. Spend some time looking up the "confession" tape that is used by those who support this notion that it was OBL saying he caused 9/11. The only way you are going to know any better is to really look at this yourself. Google is your friend.

So I am supposed to read your mind. I'll try, but no insults if I fail. Then again, I'm used to it. Fire away. You spend time with posting positions, I thought you would have references readily available is all. I'm not here for stray and loose dogma so forgive me if I ask to see your leash.

Re read what I typed. I told you I have seen many Ladin vids. I did not know if we saw the same ones, nor am I aware of this "proof" you speak of. I asked nicely you present it, then you back away and imply I haven't looked into things. No, I have. I just want to know what you are referring too. Enough guess work is going on, and I rather not do that. Plus, rather than rely on memory, I rather review what you are referring to and then comment. I am trying to do homework, but the inquiry depends on you, since it is what you stated as proof, and experts that is the issue. I have two balls, neither are crystal. I can't read minds, If you want me to guess at what your proof is, and what your experts are, ok fine. I just did, and you're incorrect. Now guess how I proved it......

Next time you call me friend, it needs not to be in mock. I am not your enemy only enquiring.

 

[interestedINitall]

A.LeClair,

Don't you just love it when the "high priest" uses condescension to try to shame you into seeing things his way?

Wow!

 

[CapnG]

I'm not sure if they're the ones he's referring to but I have seen side-by-side images of two Bin Laden tapes and they are certainly not the same man. You don't need to be an "expert" to recognize that fact, simple observation will suffice after all, we humans are trained from birth to recognize faces. The two men purported to be Bin Laden have different shaped ears and noses, one's eyes are further apart than the other's, etc. All simple, basic observation.

Whether or not that's psy-ops and on who's turf it lays isn't something I can say with any certainty however. All I know is, unless there's a well paid and well equipped plastic surgeon skullking around the Pakistan/Afgan border, those are different men.

 

[cottonzway]

As anyone here happened to see the recently looked at video of the BBC announcing WTC 7 has fallen not only about a half hour prior to the fall but with the LIVE feed with the reporter stading in front of the NYC skyline with WTC 7 in plain view? I thought this was a hoax by someone who was angry with the BBC over their recent white wash 9/11 documentary. So I went to the BBC's site and they say the video is indeed real but say how it was a misunderstanding and that they "lost" the videos of this. I could not make this **** up if I hoenstly tried.

A link of the video:

Here is the link from the BBC trying to spin this and having the gaul to claim that they, the BBC, lost the originals. The BBC lost the tapes/videos for 9/11?!?

BBC - The Editors: Part of the conspiracy?

It's time to EXPOSE the liars and the people who have helped cover this up. There is no "spin" on this either for the debunker types. Amazing. Pass this along to everyone you know!

 

[auntiegrav]

As anyone here happened to see the recently looked at video of the BBC announcing WTC 7 has fallen not only about a half hour prior to the fall but with the LIVE feed with the reporter stading in front of the NYC skyline with WTC 7 in plain view? I thought this was a hoax by someone who was angry with the BBC over their recent white wash 9/11 documentary. So I went to the BBC's site and they say the video is indeed real but say how it was a misunderstanding and that they "lost" the videos of this. I could not make this **** up if I hoenstly tried.

Yup. I saw the video yesterday, also. It is very intriguing. The one question that comes to mind is, "Is that really the Solomon Brothers building, or one that looks like it?"
I can't tell you for sure. Maybe a New Yorker knows if it is or not. I don't know the placements.
I guess the only other question is whether the BBC reporters are referring to any other smaller buildings that might have been damaged, or for sure are referring to WTC7 when they are talking about "the Solomon Brothers building".

Otherwise, yes, the video is pretty definitive, and you can't say it's just a confusion of the times, since the woman is talking about a building falling down that is right there behind her head....
I'm pretty sure that isn't a mural behind her head, since it had smoke plumes coming out of it.

 

[cottonzway]

Yup. I saw the video yesterday, also. It is very intriguing. The one question that comes to mind is, "Is that really the Solomon Brothers building, or one that looks like it?"
I can't tell you for sure. Maybe a New Yorker knows if it is or not. I don't know the placements.
I guess the only other question is whether the BBC reporters are referring to any other smaller buildings that might have been damaged, or for sure are referring to WTC7 when they are talking about "the Solomon Brothers building".

Otherwise, yes, the video is pretty definitive, and you can't say it's just a confusion of the times, since the woman is talking about a building falling down that is right there behind her head....
I'm pretty sure that isn't a mural behind her head, since it had smoke plumes coming out of it.

It's clearly WTC 7 because you can see that when they ZOOM in on it. Any building is hard to see in a situation like that but once they zoomed in on it you can clearly see it is WTC 7. You can get that information here:

http://www.nycskyscrapers.com/wallstreet.html (not a bias site)

This is like if when OJ was going down the road in the white Bronco with AC and they were able to ZOOM into the SUV and there is OJ holding the bloody knife in his had while the police chase him.

Now I don't say that on 9/11/01 that the BBC was "in" on anything but they sure are now with their cover up. The fact that Richard Potter, the head of news for the BBC, had the nerve to say they "lost" the tapes on 9/11 is an obviously scared person(s) making claims that defy logic. This would be like asking ESPN if they had footage of the Super Bowl and they said they lost the footage. The BBC is downright criminal in their complacency on covering up this story.

People need to PUSH this because it's time for people to go to jail over this. WTC 7 was blown up per the police, firemen, and even Larry Silverstein on PBS of all places. There is a REASON why NIST has taken away the 5 reasons to the collapse of WTC 7 and there is nobody in the engineering industry that gives a reason to why this building fell. Now they are caught RED HANDED and it's time for these treasonous ****ers to pay for their crimes!

The criminals are scared and they should be. Now it is time to do something about it and put them in a court room.

 

[pixelsmith]

COMMERCIAL PROPERTY: The Salomon Solution; A Building Within a Building, at a Cost of $200 Million
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By MARK MCCAIN
Published: February 19, 1989
LEAD: BEFORE it moves into a new office tower in downtown Manhattan, Salomon Brothers, the brokerage firm, intends to spend nearly two years and more than $200 million cutting out floors, adding elevators, reinforcing steel girders, upgrading power supplies and making other improvements in its million square feet of space.


The work, which began last month at Seven World Trade Center, reflects both the adaptability of steel-framed towers and the extraordinary importance of fail-safe computer and telephone systems for the brokerage industry. According to many real estate experts, no company has ever made such extensive alterations to a new office building in Manhattan.

Salomon had tried to avoid the trouble and expense of alteration work by designing an office building, in partnership with a developer, from the ground up. But in late 1987, after the stock-market crash, Salomon withdrew as the co-owner and principal tenant of a project planned for Columbus Circle in midtown Manhattan.

The termination of that agreement left Salomon with an after-tax charge of $51 million and put the firm under intense pressure to find new headquarters space before its lease at One New York Plaza, in downtown Manhattan, expired in 1990. It no longer had time to shape the blueprints of a project; instead, it needed to find an existing building or one under construction that could be fitted for its high-technology operations in about two years.

After studying more than 50 options throughout the New York region, Salomon signed a 20-year lease for 22 floors - each spanning nearly an acre - at Seven World Trade Center, an office tower that has been largely vacant since Silverstein Properties completed it two years ago.

''We really had a time constraint,'' explained Gedale B. Horowitz, a senior executive director of Salomon. ''And we were driven very much by technology. We had to find a building that could accommodate our needs, including major-sized trading floors.''

Much of the new electrical, air-conditioning and mechanical equipment will serve three double-height trading floors. To create the extra height, workers are removing most of three existing floors, using jackhammers to demolish concrete slabs and torches to remove steel decking and girders beneath the concrete.

After the girders are cut into sections small enough to fit into a construction elevator they will be sold as scrap for about 4 cents a pound.

In some office buildings, that alteration would be impossible, but Silverstein Properties tried to second-guess the needs of potential tenants when it designed Seven World Trade Center as a speculative project.

''We built in enough redundancy to allow entire portions of floors to be removed without affecting the building's structural integrity, on the assumption that someone might need double-height floors,'' said Larry Silverstein, president of the company. ''Sure enough, Salomon had that need.

''And there were many other ways that we designed as much adaptability as possible into the building because we knew that flexible layout is important to large space users.''

Nearly 2,000 people will be working on the retrofit project during the peak period. The cost, which is estimated at $200 million - not including carpeting, furniture and other office equipment - will come out of Salomon's pocket.

''We made a landlord contribution to the work,'' Mr. Silverstein said, ''but Salomon's costs will go well beyond that contribution by many, many times.''

MORE than 375 tons of steel - requiring 12 miles of welding - will be installed to reinforce floors for Salomon's extra equipment. Sections of the existing stone facade and steel bracing will be temporarily removed so that workers using a roof crane can hoist nine diesel generators onto the tower's fifth floor, where they will become the core of a back-up power station.

 

[cottonzway]

So I am supposed to read your mind. I'll try, but no insults if I fail. Then again, I'm used to it. Fire away. You spend time with posting positions, I thought you would have references readily available is all. I'm not here for stray and loose dogma so forgive me if I ask to see your leash.

Re read what I typed. I told you I have seen many Ladin vids. I did not know if we saw the same ones, nor am I aware of this "proof" you speak of. I asked nicely you present it, then you back away and imply I haven't looked into things. No, I have. I just want to know what you are referring too. Enough guess work is going on, and I rather not do that. Plus, rather than rely on memory, I rather review what you are referring to and then comment. I am trying to do homework, but the inquiry depends on you, since it is what you stated as proof, and experts that is the issue. I have two balls, neither are crystal. I can't read minds, If you want me to guess at what your proof is, and what your experts are, ok fine. I just did, and you're incorrect. Now guess how I proved it......

Next time you call me friend, it needs not to be in mock. I am not your enemy only enquiring.

The only thing I can say to you as to find a better understanding of this topic is to READ the finding of the report. I'm not talking about conspiracy theory sites or books, but official 9/11 Commission Report by Lee Hamilton and Thomas Kean. All "conspiracy theories" are secondary to this report. If you can read the report and walk away feeling comfortable with the findings and logic in the report then at least then I can say you are informed on the topic. I'm not saying read some site that says (either way) what it says but do so for yourself, all 547 pages. If you choose to do that then my guess is you will understand why someone like myself is saying all this stuff. It's probably the most non-bias way I can explain why I am asking these questions.

You are right though, you are not my enemy and I'm sorry for coming off as a ass. I just care about what is going on and have spent many hours of my life looking into all of this and I see a problem with it. I'm a passionate guy when I care about something and this I care about because it effects our lives. Again, if you really want to understand why I am coming from this (not others, me) then read the report bro.