A Troubling Observation About UFO Reality

[Trajanus]

And regarding McMinnville; it's a truck mirror. If anybody denies that fact

That's not a "fact" but an opinion.

 

[Creepy Green Light]

Surely they weren't mentally challenged like the Trents. I don't doubt some people can fool experts but they'd have to be bright or skilled.

Show me proof that Paul Trent was mentally challenged.

 

[Creepy Green Light]

That's not a "fact" but an opinion.

It's a fact - get over it.

 

[Trajanus]

The bottom line for Roswell is that it's reasonable to believe that some sort of odd debris was found that was initially reported by the Air Force as being a "flying disk" which was interpreted to be synonymous with flying saucer. After that it starts to get murky leaving a tantalizing trail of intrigue, inconsistencies, contradictions, and seeming fabrications that spans decades.

In his latest tome, KDR summed up the case by saying there's no known prosaic explanation but that by itself doesn't prove ET. IMO lack of any earthly explanation, coupled with the exotic nature of what was reported, does point to ET. But I'd have to agree with KDR that real proof must await a breakthrough like gov't disclosure.

On debunking. It's true that there are skeptics here ( including me ). But I'm also one of the "good ones" ( or at least I like to think so ). I take this approach because if we cannot be skeptical of ourselves, we lose our objectivity along with whatever credibility we might have. So I take a very logical approach by applying critical thinking to each claim in order to determine how much weight it deserves compared to others. In the process I listen to everything because even the nonsense is part of the picture, and we cannot separate the signal from the noise unless we know what the noise is.

I'm skeptical at times. On some yahoo board the admin. asked me to leave because I was "always slamming reports." I replied that just because someone is a believer doesn't mean he has to believe every report. Many IMO are nonsense intended to sully the field.

Personally I believe alien visitation is real and I believe a fair bit of the history surrounding the investigation of UFOs. Beyond that, once again, things begin to get murky really fast. I have opinions about other topics as well, but UFOs are my main thing.

Agreed; I'm into a lot of other things but UFOs and aliens have the greatest potential significance.

 

[Trajanus]

It's a fact - get over it.

It's NOT a fact, because no known mirror, AFAIK, really matches what was photographed, no such mirror was reported to be in Trent's possession, and neither he nor anyone else EVER reported use of it. See KDR's blog. Not only did Rudiak reject the mirror explanation, not even archskeptic Moody maintained it was that. Talk about stubborn.....AFAIK the conclusion of experts is that McMinnville remains unresolved. As ufology once pointed out even those French analysts said their study was NOT conclusive. As for Trent, investigators at the time came to that conclusion about him, and so IIRC did Maccabee.
But again, suppose they were wrong and he WAS smart. He'd have known better than to photograph a model just under wires--like begging to be suspected of fraud.

 

[Creepy Green Light]

It's NOT a fact, because no known mirror, AFAIK, really matches what was photographed, no such mirror was reported to be in Trent's possession, and neither he nor anyone else EVER reported use of it. See KDR's blog. Not only did Rudiak reject the mirror explanation, not even archskeptic Moody maintained it was that. Talk about stubborn.....AFAIK the conclusion of experts is that McMinnville remains unresolved. As ufology once pointed out even those French analysts said their study was NOT conclusive. As for Trent, investigators at the time came to that conclusion about him, and so IIRC did Maccabee.
But again, suppose they were wrong and he WAS smart. He'd have known better than to photograph a model just under wires--like begging to be suspected of fraud.

Rudiak blah blah I'm in love with Rudiak blah blah he's my idol blah blah.

Lol.

 

[Trajanus]

Rudiak blah blah I'm in love with Rudiak blah blah he's my idol blah blah.

Grow up...And it's not just Rudiak.

 

[Creepy Green Light]

An

Grow up...And it's not just Rudiak.

And you mean Rudiak is not the only one you're in love with? There's others?

Just kidding

 

[Trajanus]

There have been over 1700 planets discovered in the few years we've had the technology to look for them.

More like twice that number. Known exoplanets total over 3,400.

 

[marduk]

More like twice that number. Known exoplanets total over 3,400.

Totally right. That was a 2014 number, sorry.

 

[Trajanus]

Totally right. That was a 2014 number, sorry.

Of course, it strengthens the argument you made earlier.

 

[Burnt State]

I believe that even at the time I posted my sighting details i was questioning the truth of what I saw. Yes, they looked like flying saucers but I was busy thinking along the lines, at the time of the posting, that the ability for an advanced species to appear as they wish inside our minds was the explanation for all the diversity of ships seen. Already Greg Bushop's ideas of co-creation were developing in my head and since contacting him and exploring other avenues related to how we see I have a very different way of thinking about what I saw.

Currently the concept of how the external stimulus and a witness interact with each other to create what gets experienced and then reported I see very much as a co-creative event that probably has much more to do with what's inside the minds of the witness than anything else. What the stimulus is I have no idea, but it appears to be something that is most often processed through the cultural mimetic collective as alien technology in our skies.

As for the burnt garage I believe on Radio Misterioso I described this as something that appears as a confirmation event, but is also part of a troubling issue regarding UFO case reports: how discontinuous evidence becomes quickly manufactured into a continuous narrative. So while the burnt tree and radial arc of burnt shingles seen months later appears to be evidence confirmation I can not verify it nor can I truly count it as a continuous evidence chain. It could have been lightning or the ufo - i don't know the facts. I think a lot of broken tree branches and fairy rings in forests are given the same mistaken weight of evidence. We tend to string together clues looking for the narrative of a structured craft touching down and I don't think the clues we string together are as weighty as we'd like - just like our detailed discussion about Robert Taylor attacked by sea mines in the Dechmont Woods as the cloaked ship hovered nearby. I believe it also had strange propellers on its edges or rotating components - hilarious, what the mind might see under duress.

As someone immensely curious about what the ufo stimulus is i have to take apart my own case in as mch detail as I can. And I have to use what I've learned about seeing and about the paranormal experience in general to tease it apart as much as possible. So I'm doubtful about things. I prefer that position over believerdom.

What I saw sticks in the mind to this day and it was a very powerful personal event but I can only say this is what it looked like - aliens from outer space in flying saucers returning to the stars after a quick visit - but I can't say what it actually was. I continue to investigate different avenues...and if I can't question myself then who else should I question.

After rereading this I realized I completely omitted two other critical steps that assisted my change in thinking and that's both the recent public pieces from Vallee (@ GEIPAN), and the material Soupie has posted here as he's really opened up some very important lines of consideration I would not have stumbled into on my own with regards to the act of seeing.

 

[Red]

After rereading this I realized I completely omitted two other critical steps that assisted my change in thinking and that's both the recent public pieces from Vallee (@ GEIPAN), and the material Soupie has posted here as he's really opened up some very important lines of consideration I would not have stumbled into on my own with regards to the act of seeing.

If it wouldn't be a huge bother, links please? I would be interested in what Vallee has to say.

 

[Burnt State]

This is from 2014 but it is still a significant document from him. The Forbidden Science series is also quite worthwhile i understand along with all his work with Aubeck

 

[Red]

This is from 2014 but it is still a significant document from him. The Forbidden Science series is also quite worthwhile i understand along with all his work with Aubeck

Thanks much for taking the time.

 

[Celeste]

Celeste, I tend to enjoy ufology more for the sociological/folkloric aspects. I like the stories and the intereactions that people have on these kinds of forums and all of the hypothetical scenarios that people come up with. I also a enjoy a good debunking now and again, too.

Gene and Chris do try to seperate the signal from the noise, they are a bit more discriminating in the kind of information they present, and that is why I listen to them and not C2C, at least, not often.

Not everyone in this field is truthful and there are lot of starry-eyed believers who have bought into the most outrageous things. It's not that we are trying to debunk every thing, but there has been a lot of fabrication and disinformation put out there, anyone whose had a longterm interest in these topics are aware of that. And there have been a couple of hucksters, too.

I think what's most important is even though this thread has often got heated, it's remained mostly civil and most members here aren't looking to only prove their point of view, but also gain a better understanding of others' points of view. Otherwise this thread wouldn't have lasted this long.

Red, I pretty much agree with you, whole-heartedly. I actually heard someone once (maybe on C2C) say they have an "open, but not gaping mind". That is how I feel. I believe there is a whole lot happening that we are given no answers to, but I have to take a step back when I hear someone buy into everything, hook, line and sinker.

 

[Celeste]

I'm down with that. I don't think you should be too fussed, except that there's a cadre of of passionate folks in, on, and around this show that have a pretty low tolerance for BS.

Get what you want out of it; if it's seeking a sense of wonder about the universe, or entertainment, or something entirely different... welcome.

Marduk, thanks! I agree. I can't get too fussed about it, but I do enjoy following the show, this thread...etc. I will keep doing what I have been doing and take what makes sense and feels like 'truth' to me and let the rest go. I totally feel that sense of wonder, and the seeking of truth, but not to any extreme level.

 

[Celeste]

Thanks for your post and glad you enjoy the show

The reason for the Roswell comments is pretty much like you guessed. It's been discussed to death so to speak and there are some almost religious believers out there that tie it into every other conspiracy theory to be found. The bottom line for Roswell is that it's reasonable to believe that some sort of odd debris was found that was initially reported by the Air Force as being a "flying disk" which was interpreted to be synonymous with flying saucer. After that it starts to get murky leaving a tantalizing trail of intrigue, inconsistencies, contradictions, and seeming fabrications that spans decades. It's not a taboo subject here by any means. It's just that for the show's hosts, it's like having to play that same same old song you once loved over and over so many times that eventually it becomes the last one you ever want to hear again ... lol.

On debunking. It's true that there are skeptics here ( including me ). But I'm also one of the "good ones" ( or at least I like to think so ). I take this approach because if we cannot be skeptical of ourselves, we lose our objectivity along with whatever credibility we might have. So I take a very logical approach by applying critical thinking to each claim in order to determine how much weight it deserves compared to others. In the process I listen to everything because even the nonsense is part of the picture, and we cannot separate the signal from the noise unless we know what the noise is.

Personally I believe alien visitation is real and I believe a fair bit of the history surrounding the investigation of UFOs. Beyond that, once again, things begin to get murky really fast. I have opinions about other topics as well, but UFOs are my main thing.

Ufology, I think I share your pov. I can be skeptical about the really outlandish stuff and there is no way I automatically buy into whatever everyone is selling, but I have a curious mind and I have always been fascinated by the ufo phenomenon. Roswell is probably boring to many by now. I keep hoping there will be some public acknowledgment of it and what actually did happen, but that is probably not going to happen by the gov't. It does seem an insult to people's intelligence to keep insisting on crash dummies, weather balloons or some other experimental balloon. I guess, I do like your comment about liking the nonsense too because it's all part of the picture. Thanks!

 

[Randall]

Ufology, I think I share your pov. I can be skeptical about the really outlandish stuff and there is no way I automatically buy into whatever everyone is selling, but I have a curious mind and I have always been fascinated by the ufo phenomenon. Roswell is probably boring to many by now. I keep hoping there will be some public acknowledgment of it and what actually did happen, but that is probably not going to happen by the gov't. It does seem an insult to people's intelligence to keep insisting on crash dummies, weather balloons or some other experimental balloon. I guess, I do like you comment about liking the nonsense too because it's all part of the picture. Thanks!

Yes, the nonsense can be the best part sometimes, provided of course that one realizes it is nonsense, and that its place in the field is as a cultural or historical facet rather than a fact. I'm reminded of a scene from the movie Finding Forester ...

This Is My Dessert ...

 

[Trajanus]

Ufology, I think I share your pov. I can be skeptical about the really outlandish stuff and there is no way I automatically buy into whatever everyone is selling, but I have a curious mind and I have always been fascinated by the ufo phenomenon.

I dismiss claims inconsistent with science, like Adamski's Venusians or Sitchin's niburu. I don't automatically reject contactee cases, but I wouldn't waste my time with icke and reptilians.

Roswell is probably boring to many by now.

IMO "frustrating" is a better term. I always found it fascinating but Randle recently wrote in effect the case is at a dead end, and will stay that way until there's a breakthrough.

I keep hoping there will be some public acknowledgment of it and what actually did happen, but that is probably not going to happen by the gov't.

I think it ultimately will, but don't hold your breath.

It does seem an insult to people's intelligence to keep insisting on crash dummies, weather balloons or some other experimental balloon.

MOGUL, intended to detect the sound of Soviet atomic blasts, has long been the alternative to ET but it's been effectively disproved as KDR and others have shown.

I guess, I do like your comment about liking the nonsense too because it's all part of the picture. Thanks!

Some nonsense may be part of a deliberate program to mislead. Unravelling nonsense might provide an indirect path to truth.