Ancient knowledge, lost or censored ?

[Kim323]

Kieran, the Inventory Stela is dated to the TWENTY SIXTH Dynasty.

Khufu/Cheops was a pharaoh of the FOURTH Dynasty. TWO THOUSAND YEARS separated the two dynasties.

Are you saying that the stela was CONTEMPORANEOUS with, was made during the reign of Khufu/Cheops?

The stela was made about TWO THOUSAND years AFTER the pyramid at Giza was built! Kim

 

[Qetuoadgjl]

Kim, you fail to recognize..blah blah

"Kim" fails to recognize very little as he goes about suckering posters like yourself into completely meaningless forum battles. Expressions of nothing of any more importance than the ego driven retard drools that they are.

Grow up. Don't you have better things to do than this?

 

[Qetuoadgjl]

here is a vid on other possabilitys

Nice vid. I have dozens more. Get over it. No one knows.

 

[Bob Watson]

True no one knows! Nothing to get over here...I'm just giving more possabilitys...

 

[Kieran]

"Kim" fails to recognize very little as he goes about suckering posters like yourself into completely meaningless forum battles. Expressions of nothing of any more importance than the ego driven retard drools that they are.

Grow up. Don't you have better things to do than this?[/quot

I knew this would be the eventual outcome in the end and said as much before i started replying to Kim. When you get into a debate with someone with a opposing view to your own very little or anything is ever agreed on ever. I've been a member of this forum long enough to know this. But this a forum at the end of the day and i had some spare time to debate what Kim said, the rest is history. I am out now though peace.

 

[Kim323]

Gosh, Kieran, and Gordon, too, I would hope you'd have enjoyed the debate. It seems that you, Kieran, are sort of deflated, sort of sighing in disappointment. It was a debate, that's all. You sound resigned, that nothing was accomplished, in your last post there. Isn't that what a debate is, a discussion "with someone with a opposing view to your own"?

I just feel that this fringe stuff flies in the face of all evidence, no matter how the TV shows, internet conspiracy sites on pseudoarchaeology, pseudohistory, and pseudoscience, fringe book authors and publishers, and on and on, try to purvey this stuff. It is simply false, and the bottom line is that they all really offer nothing to refute. It's all based on lost knowledge, lost tools, they couldn't do it, and then when confronted, it's look at this structure, and soon the structures are forming a "sacred line" around the globe, and then in frustration vanished worldwide civilizations are brought in, and it never ends. I'm truly sorry if you feel the debate was counterproductive for you and disappointing, but as a teacher, and I know some hate this, but I cannot let this stuff pass. It's a disservice to people who are members of the forum, or come into it as guests (who seem to comprise quite a number, don't know if they are members who haven't signed in or visitors checking the forum out) to not confront and question and ask specifics for these wild claims.

Essentially, very, very few members form the core of those posting. And I know I am evidently ignored by two, and that doesn't bother me. I will continue to question any claims, politely I think, and to ask for very specific evidence and examples to back up what are presented as wild claims, even from them, and if they don't see the evidence I present to refute them, well, that's their decision. It has been suggested clearly by one that I leave the forum because I'm not suitable for it.

I enjoyed the debate, and apologize if I came across as pedantic and lecturing. But I think science, history, theology, psychology, anthropology, etc., are sacred fields and scholarly endeavors and that wild stuff should be simply questioned and confronted when necessary.

I'm not disappointed that you have left the debate, because it had reached an end. But quoting what you quoted in your last post above surprised me a little, because you seem to be sanctioning and approving of the way that quote characterizes me, against all evidence. Pedantic, lecturing, chiding, facetious, a bit sarcastic, yes, I can be all that. But you began this thread, Kieran, with a long video that made some very wild claims, and I confronted it. And Kieran, wild unsubstantiated claims are not difficult to find on this forum.

But you seem to be approving of this "people like Kim" charge leveled at me since I began posting more on the forum. It's an easy charge to make, and one that absolves the user of the phrase of any responsibility to answer specifically for the wild claims he may make. So, yes, I have become the archetypal gadfly, I guess, a "person like Kim." That's been leveled at me before. And the author of that quote you then quoted (for what reason, Kieran?) has made some pretty nasty and inflammatory statements about teachers on this thread and refuses to supply requested specifics. And also wild claims on this thread about history, very wild and conspiratorial claims, and throws invective when asked for specifics.

By quoting his statement about me, "ego driven retard drools," you are in essence telling me and everyone that you think this, too, about me. If asking for specifics and challenging wild claims net me this, so be it. It doesn't bother me, though it says a lot about the person who makes such statements, and evidently you feel that way about me in this discussion, Kieran, but I can't control what you think regarding history or of what you think of me!

I think you and Gordon debated the topic appropriately, Kieran. I'm sorry if you feel it didn't go as you expected, but what did you expect? That was a rhetorical question, you don't need to answer, and I didn't mean it sarcastically. If you throw out wild stuff, you have to expect to be asked for specifics and to be challenged.

So, I enjoyed the debate, Kieran, and I'm sorry you think, too, that I'm a "ego driven retard drool"! Kim

 

[trainedobserver]

One of the things that fascinates me about these structures is the mystery of how people were organized and motivated to produce them. The assumption is slavery. The Great Wall of China was built with slave labor. The workers were motivated by pain and threat of death. That makes these things less shining examples of human achievement and more like monuments of man's inhumanity to man. Whatever the tools and methods used to make these huge stone structures, it seems that they were probably built on a foundation of a great deal of human suffering and death. I can't help but think of that when I look at them and wonder what kind of society could have created them.

 

[Kim323]

Of course, Rick, I agree with you that slavery in and of itself is a horrible institution, and nothing good, in principle, can be said of it, and I'm in no way defending it.

However, slavery in antiquity, and that's what I'm speaking of here, is quite a bit more complex than you illustrate it here. There is good evidence that the pyramids, for instance, were built by tens and tens of thousands of very skilled workers. Archaeological evidence, descriptions of which can easily be found in books, and even on the internet (which has to be examined very closely for fringe stuff), points to a bit different story than your generalization, though morally correct in principle of course, tends to paint.

The very word slavery has connotations that engender a moral response, and it should: slavery is reprehensible, especially in our times, but does it exist in many forms even today? Absolutely it does. So it's important to see its complexity in antiquity, also.

I have taught, if it can be termed that way, taught (!), the subject of slavery in antiquity. It was a complex thing, as things are typically in history, and more research will turn up this complexity.

I will keep this brief, because I see myself straying into pedanticism, but in ancient Rome, as in other societies of antiquity, slavery was a very codified institution. There were many, many examples of "servi" (plural of servus) gaining their freedom, and thus changing their status. There are many, many examples of servi and their sons and grandsons who gained their freedom attaining quite prominent positions in many levels of Roman government, and especially, of the military. But some research of your own will cause you to drop your jaw in wonder at just how high, and I'll let you find that out yourself, because research and learning you do yourself is the best and most fun.

In Imperial Rome, the "Roman empire", certain emperors, especially those popularly called "The Adoptive Emperors" by historians, were actively involved personally in laws and practice concerning the institution, and that's what it was, an institution, for good and bad.

So, the actual picture is one of great complexity. Kim

 

[pixelsmith]

You know, Pixel, I must say I admire this post, really. True, I've never used a garden hose on my parents' property, where I've put in a lot of posts, and when done with students (it's a good science experiment with fourth graders), I've also used translucent tubing for visibility.

So, I frankly have never thought of using a garden hose, so if you did, well, you're better skilled than I am on that one.

And as for the ignore comment, I like that. You don't always listen, that's for sure, but to me that ignore feature two members have triumphantly announced personally to me, is a cowardly way out.

I know how I can sound, very lecturing, very pedantic. And ironically, if you can last decades as I have in public school classrooms and the students and parents really like you and think you're doing a great job, well, clearly, I was never so forceful as I have been on this forum. But I do think I've earned my stripes (so to speak) in the fiery furnace of religious argumentation (so to speak) on these forums. And I do wish you would stop with the Bible and Jesus derision. Really, I've been melted down and forged anew on that, and it doesn't bother me, but it does say something about you.

So, we're still sworn enemies, you and I, Pixel, when it comes to many topics, and I will continue to challenge anyone on wild claims. But, yes, I did like this post of yours. Kim

Let go of the garden hose thing now and just accept that some people are more intelligent than you.
I too have been teaching ages 5 - 65 for 22 years and get told weekly I am a great instructor. I tend to latch on to semi intelligent people who believe in god because the bible tells us to. Books don't lie, right teacher? What it says about me is that I have been there done that in terms of religion.
I do not consider you an enemy. I welcome views other than my own because that is how we learn things. You say you will challenge anyone on wild claims yet you believe in a zombie jesus that asks us to eat his body and drink his blood.

 

[Kim323]

Wow, Pixel, that was really something indeed.

I think my reply to you about the water level was quite a good one, not meant to incite you.

I see a new twist now of condemning me. I've never made it a secret, it's on my profile, that I'm a retired teacher. But since Angelo, and I credit him for this, no criticism intended, corrected another poster as to my gender, and then said I was a retired teacher, wow, suddenly my status as a teacher is now being SPECIFICALLY brought up in a very condemnatory fashion, by you, Pixel, and by another poster who had some very, ahem, interesting things to say about teachers in general and teachers he knew personally.

I said I liked your post, and I will implement your water level idea if I find I don't have any clear tubing, Pixel. But, did I deserve that?

I do wish you would lay off the very specific stuff you keep saying frequently about Jesus and the Bible. It just shows you in a very bad light. Your intimations and insinuations when you speak of Christianity and now, teachers, is not good, but I know you don't mean to be subtle, that's just an accident, as you are very direct, no mistaking that!

Anyway, none of this stuff bothers me anymore, it has become the norm from certain members for a long time, and I will continue to politely point out contrary evidence and to ask for specifics when wild claims are made on the forum.

Again, I know I can sound lecturing, pedantic, chiding, even sarcastic at times, certainly tongue in cheek and facetious, and I didn't mean to offend you, Pixel, but you can be very frustrating. Kim

 

[pixelsmith]

incite me? you wish... yes i am frustrating to deal with and I have been banned twice because of that. I tend to say what is on my mind without the sugar coating.
You ask that I lay off "specifics" regarding jesus and religion yet ask for "specifics" regarding "wild claims"!!! WOW! You do see my problem with that don't you?

 

[pixelsmith]

I will continue to question any claims, politely I think, and to ask for very specific evidence and examples to back up what are presented as wild claims, even from them, and if they don't see the evidence I present to refute them, well, that's their decision.

Again... you ask for specific evidence for people to back up wild claims yet you believe in god, jesus and the bible, all just made up stories.

 

[Kim323]

here is a vid on other possabilitys

Bob, that was a great video. I'd been waiting to watch it when I'd have time to watch it all the way through without stopping. I liked the down to earth narration, the attribution of the building of the pyramids to, yes, the Egyptians (!), and the premium the author of the video placed on their ingenuity and their use of what they had to work with, which was actually quite a lot of engineering, astronomical, and mathematical concepts as well as tools and devices.

No vanished worldwide civilizations, no lost knowledge suppressed or hidden by European religious institutions, no the Egyptians couldn't do it, no the pyramids were there for many centuries or millennia before they were actually constructed and Khufu just brushed the sand away and there they were (!), none of this we couldn't build the pyramids even with MODERN technology (!), none of this we couldn't build them using the technology we know they had to use (and which they DID use!), no deep and dark intoning of music which is the trademark of these fringe TV shows, no high RPM thirty five foot diameter circular saws or other power tools, no fringe baloney.

I do think he overstepped himself with the condemnation of Egyptologists, because many, many historians and scientists think the Egyptians used the wheel. That is nothing I've ever heard historians discount at all, as the wheel was invented much before the ancient Egyptians and invented independently and certainly spread by diffusion, too. The concept of the wheel, not just its attachment to a vehicle, was known very, very early in human history and used in a variety of devices.

And then I realized that sometimes the author of the video was actually going after the fringe "Egyptologists." And fringe they are indeed, but not Egyptologists in the pure sense of the word, and I prefer the word historians.

That segment at the end about the quarrying of that obelisk was very interesting.

I liked his emphasis on the motivation of the ancient Egyptians, that they saw it as a project, and that it involved many skilled workers as well as the more grunt workers. I didn't see any stuff about slavery, which has been discounted as the source of labor, not that some amount may have come from that.

My two oldest sons are engineers with advanced degrees from superb universities, one from Stanford (and another son is getting his engineering degree, too), and I asked them to watch the video. They found some holes and gaps here and there in the concepts the author put forth, and they don't agree with him that ramps were so rejected completely by the Egyptians. But all in all an impressive video that makes you think. AND again, and above all,

NO CRACKPOT REVISIONIST THEY COULDN'T DO IT stuff!

I hesitate to bring this topic up, but the medieval construction craze in Europe of cathedral building over some centuries is also impressive. But NOT BEYOND BELIEF! Now, those were impressive structures and just gorgeous, but I'm guessing that the fringe people don't see the cathedrals as structures THEY JUST COULDN'T BUILD (!). Why? I think because it was nearer modern times.

There's just something about antiquity and the structures built in antiquity by many cultures and peoples that ALLOW THE FRINGEOLOGISTS free rein. Why? Because it's so in the past that it's "easier" for these crackpot TV shows and crackpot authors and publishers to "postulate" all this crackpot stuff about vanished worldwide civilizations that possessed secret knowledge that "elites" are hiding from us. Crackpot.

Great video, Bob, and despite the perfunctory, superficial, and even cruel dismissal of your video by one poster, I thought the video was superb and attributed to the Egyptians the very humanity, intelligence, perseverance, and ingenuity they deserve. Kim

 

[Kim323]

Now, Pixel, go back and read my posts elsewhere and you will see that where I've stated belief in things that have no empirical evidence, I have stated such.

And that when talking about the history of religion, and its aspects here on earth, I have provided evidence and specifics, and frequently recommended books by many reputable scientists/historians/theologians and combinations of these in one person often, that talk to the confluence of religion and science, that they are not exclusive at all for each other. This is clear that I have done this. Have you read any of my recommendations? Start with John Polkinghorne perhaps.

Go ahead, Pixel, I am immune to your taunts, and yes, I will continue to point out contrary evidence and ask for very clear specifics when wild claims are made about history, science, archaeology, etc., all of which are topics of this thread.

And on other threads, I will continue to offer evidence when wild or unclear claims are made about intelligent extraterrestrials, UFOs, abductions, etc.

Thank you for your input, Pixel, but I won't reply any more to your taunts, but have and will reply to things you have presented concerning other topics. Kim

 

[Angel of Ioren]

Let's keep religion out of this thread please.

Thanks.

 

[pixelsmith]

Crackpot, Fringeologist, terms thrown around by a man that believes that "a cosmic jewish zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh, drink his blood and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat an apple from a magical tree..."
LMAO!

 

[Angel of Ioren]

Another thread, same topics. Keep religion out of it please.

 

[Angel of Ioren]

I have now merged all three threads.

 

[pixelsmith]

Another thread, same topics. Keep religion out of it please.

sorry Angelo. as long as Kim keeps bringing up "crackpot/fringeologist" stuff i will keep the religious remarks coming.

 

[Angel of Ioren]

Pixel, in all honesty, I see your point. How can one demand empirical evidence for one thing, and disregard it for another? I just don't want this interesting topic (that spanned three threads) do devolve into another religious argument.
I've always been interested in ancient cultures and how they were able to do what they did. I've studied this a lot through my Art History degree, and I've come to the conclusion that humans have always been capable of amazing feats. I don't think aliens were responsible because that's just as unlikely as saying some sort of god helped them.