Attention Astrologers: You're All Wrong!

[Sean Elifritz]

Btw, I ran into this information. Supposedly it came from CNN:

“If [you] adhered to the tropical zodiac – which, if [you’re] a Westerner, [you] probably did – absolutely nothing has changed for [you].”

Why?

“Because the tropical zodiac – which is fixed to seasons, and which Western astrology adheres to – differs from the sidereal zodiac – which is fixed to constellations and is followed more in the East”

And I've seen that repeated in a few news articles on Google News, that the shift applies to eastern astrology, not to western astrology. So I'm still a Virgo!

Not that I really know why I care. I don't believe this stuff at all. But for reasons beyond my immediate comprehension I really just didn't like the idea of being a Leo. Almost felt like I was being called a dirty name.

 

[The Pair of Cats]

The house positions of his planets would be a little different had the astrologer calculating the chart employed the equal house system - i.e. Uranus in 2nd, Moon in 5th and a ton of planetary placings in the 9th house (including the Sun) instead of the tenth. More Einstein's true character, I think.It's hard using the Placidean house system for births well away from the Equator.

The chart looks as if it is taken from the Solar fire software which has in it's database a list of famous charts. Possibly they were made with little thought to the reasons you raised. Which highlights the need for in depth study and research when compiling charts.

Some children are more easily fooled than others I guess. The same goes for adults judging by some of the posts in this thread.

Which posts would they be, Angelo?

 

[exo_doc]

Angelo must be a Taurus,....being so full of BULL!
Snark snark snark......Just kidding Angelo, ...it's actually PIXEL!

 

[CapnG]

Not that I really know why I care. I don't believe this stuff at all. But for reasons beyond my immediate comprehension I really just didn't like the idea of being a Leo. Almost felt like I was being called a dirty name.

As a fellow Virgo, I know the feeling. The thought of having to suddenly become all outgoing and personable... GAH!

 

[The Pair of Cats]

And here is a counter to show that astrology is a trick more than anything else.

A bunch of vague and all encompassing descriptions of personality traits designed specifically to appeal to everyone. More akin to the astrology you see in your morning paper. Not surprising really. He is a professional con man. And yes there maybe unscrupulous clairvoyants and astrologers who may use such tactics.
That doesn't mean they all are.
The main difference between this and the Shermer vid are that the women who were deliberately given the wrong assessments by Shermer rated their assessments in the lower percentile range until Shermer revealed what had happened. When given the correct ones their ratings were significantly higher. This showed that astrologers analysis of their charts was anything but generic and vague.
Overall a nice parlor trick but unimpressive as a debunking effort on astrology.

 

[Sean Elifritz]

Wonder how or if at all this effects the Chinese zodiac. I am the rat. I know that because I have a calendar from a Chinese restaurant hanging up in my kitchen saying so.

 

[Angel of Ioren]

Angelo must be a Taurus,....being so full of BULL!
Snark snark snark......Just kidding Angelo, ...it's actually PIXEL!

I'd be curious to know if one would be able to determine my sign through my messages on this board.

I just realized my birthday can be found in my profile. I removed it, but I guess if someone looks hard enough they can find it.

 

[Sean Elifritz]

I'd be curious to know if one would be able to determine my sign through my messages on this board.

Hmm, beats me. I would maybe suggest Virgo because of the skepticism but you've admitted to believing in a bunch of crazy shit in the past. But hey, there ain't many of them. Anyone has fairly good chances just guessing. As I've said before I don't believe in this stuff. But on a purely superficial level I like the general definition of Virgo so I don't want to see it be changed. Leos sound like the kind of people that cause me to roll my eyes.

But speaking of Taurus the most significant girl I ever had in my life was a Taurus and damnnnnnn, it really fit her.

 

[Angel of Ioren]

Hmm, beats me. I would maybe suggest Virgo because of the skepticism but you've admitted to believing in a bunch of crazy shit in the past. But hey, there ain't many of them. Anyone has fairly good chances just guessing. As I've said before I don't believe in this stuff. But on a purely superficial level I like the general definition of Virgo so I don't want to see it be changed. Leos sound like the kind of people that cause me to roll my eyes.

But speaking of Taurus the most significant girl I ever had in my life was a Taurus and damnnnnnn, it really fit her.

Yup, I used to believe in lots of crazy stuff. I can understand the people that think this stuff is real. I didn't understand how people thought it wasn't. No big deal, as long as you don't make life altering decisions according to what a psychic or astrologer (is that the term?) tells you.

---------- Post added at 11:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:53 PM ----------

The chart looks as if it is taken from the Solar fire software which has in it's database a list of famous charts. Possibly they were made with little thought to the reasons you raised. Which highlights the need for in depth study and research when compiling charts.


Which posts would they be, Angelo?

The ones that think astrology is something more than a pseudo-science.

Here's a great quote:

"I fully agree with you concerning the pseudo-science of astrology. The interesting point is that this kind of superstition is so tenacious that it could persist through so many centuries."

Guess who said that? I'll give you a hint, his initials are A.E. and he was a smart guy, and he's also responsible for the quote in your signature Phil. Also, keep in mind that there's a quote floating around that's incorrectly attributed to him which seems to show his support of astrology. Anyway, I just found it interesting since you have one of his quotes as you signature.

This is where I got the info by the way:

Letters of Note: Einstein on astrology

Anyway, this is just for fun Phil. Although I totally disagree with you on this, I'm enjoying this discussion a lot. I always playfully bug people that are into astrology. It's all in good fun - I hope anyway. If I'm getting on you nerves, or anyone else's please let me know and I'll quit it..

 

[The Pair of Cats]

Yup, I used to believe in lots of crazy stuff. I can understand the people that think this stuff is real. I didn't understand how people thought it wasn't. No big deal, as long as you don't make life altering decisions according to what a psychic or astrologer (is that the term?) tells you.

---------- Post added at 11:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:53 PM ----------



The ones that think astrology is something more than a pseudo-science.

Here's a great quote:

"I fully agree with you concerning the pseudo-science of astrology. The interesting point is that this kind of superstition is so tenacious that it could persist through so many centuries."

Guess who said that? I'll give you a hint, his initials are A.E. and he was a smart guy, and he's also responsible for the quote in your signature Phil. Also, keep in mind that there's a quote floating around that's incorrectly attributed to him which seems to show his support of astrology. Anyway, I just found it interesting since you have one of his quotes as you signature.

This is where I got the info by the way:

Letters of Note: Einstein on astrology

Anyway, this is just for fun Phil. Although I totally disagree with you on this, I'm enjoying this discussion a lot. I always playfully bug people that are into astrology. It's all in good fun - I hope anyway. If I'm getting on you nerves, or anyone else's please let me know and I'll quit it..

Yeah the Einstein quote has been in dispute for quite a while. You can find famous people or celebrities quoting for and quoting against astrology all over the web. It's immaterial really. One's opinion on any subject should be determined by at least a modicum of research. Simply blathering " astrology is bullshit!" or such, without any study of the subject makes the one who is blathering look somewhat foolish. But that's what you get.
I don't care that people poke fun at astrology, it's a natural reaction for people when they don't know any thing about methods of divination. As long as the person poking the fun is at least reasonably polite about it, I'm cool with it.
I'm not here to try and change anyone's mind about Astrology or anything else for that matter. All are welcome to their own opinions. All I can do is suggest you put a little more effort into some research even so far as to going and having your natal chart interpreted by a competent Astrologer.

I'd be curious to know if one would be able to determine my sign through my messages on this board.

It would be very hard to determine what your "sign" is from your postings other than pure guesswork. You often hear people at parties and whatnot, guessing
yours or other's "signs" (as in sun signs). What they are more likely doing in that setting is guessing what particular sign is on that person's ascendant or rising sign, or in other words the sign that was rising above the horizon at the exact moment of your birth.(Archie please correct me if I have that wrong). The ascendant denotes the persona, the mask that we wear as humans. The mask that we put on in public or how we would like to be perceived by others. I think I've got that right, it's been a few years since I did any practice. So your sun sign may be Aries for example and your ascendant sign may be Cancer. In other words you may come across as being someone different than the true, unadulterated you. It's way more complicated than that as there are many more aspects to analyse.

---------- Post added at 04:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:58 PM ----------

Anyway, this is just for fun Phil. Although I totally disagree with you on this, I'm enjoying this discussion a lot. I always playfully bug people that are into astrology. It's all in good fun - I hope anyway. If I'm getting on you nerves, or anyone else's please let me know and I'll quit it..

I'm glad you are enjoying this discussion Angelo. The next installment is where we discuss psychics or mediums. I spent nearly 5 years as a professional/semi-professional psychic working in a variety of settings. Whilst it was never rewarding monetarily (which was a good thing, I think) it was extremely rewarding on a personal level.

 

[ArchieBedford]

What they are more likely doing in that setting is guessing what particular sign is on that person's ascendant or rising sign, or in other words the sign that was rising above the horizon at the exact moment of your birth.(Archie please correct me if I have that wrong). The ascendant denotes the persona, the mask that we wear as humans.

That's pretty much it.

I remain BTW unconvinced about the effectiveness of predictive astrology - i.e. plotting progressions and transits to forecast future trends. Transits possibly do count for something in determining what the Germans call the Zeitgeist: as an example the planet Neptune was in the sign of Libra for the whole of the "hippy" generation born in the late 40s and through the 50s. What you would expect to see in a generation with this placing is an increased interest in exploring consciousness, a flourishing of what we now call "new-ageism" and definitely an interest in consciousness-altering drugs. Anyone remember the 1960s?

So for me in general, the jury is still out about predictive astrology especially the study of progressions. I may never come to an opinion about it. It might be bunk, or it might be that I haven't studied it deeply enough.

What definitely works is synastry, especially chart overlay of two individuals who have a relationship be it romantic, business partnership or anything else. You can actually see the dynamics in the way they relate to each other right there in the charts. I remember once seeing two people who were basically great together but had occasional flare-ups which spiralled out of control and where neither would back down or see the others' side of the issue. Having some experience by now, I thought there might be a Mars-Saturn square or opposition in the chart overlay. I checked and hey presto: there it was, with a one-degree orb. This is one of the most "challenging" placements in any relationship and you can ALWAYS see it in action, as its effects are powerful and obvious.

I think six years' study was not enough to become really skilled and knowledgeable, but it was enough to convince me that this stuff is real enough. Nowadays I don't normally think about it much from one year to the next, though it's interesting to speculate how it would all work if you were born and lived on a different planet (like for example a future colony on Mars).

 

[The Pair of Cats]

I agree with you there Archie. I have always thought that like any other means of divination that Astrology has a limit to its effectiveness. And as you say good for some things and not for others.

 

[plumbbob12]

Don’t know a lot about Astrology, but from a western materialistic standpoint, one will never prove, or disprove this pseudo-science. What I do know is that other great scientist like Galileo, Kepler, and Tycho Brahe believed in astrology. These folks were not only great genius in there own right, but were responsible for developing astronomy as a physical science, but kept there minds open to the idea of “something more” out there, that transcended our physical world.
Arguably the greatest scientist, <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comffice:smarttags" /><st1:City w:st="on"><st1lace w:st="on">Newton</st1lace></st1:City>, was a serious student of astrology, and in reviewing his library after his death, only 12% of his books were about science. The remainders were about diverse topics such as theology and alchemy.
Before anyone dismisses these studies as “the mere musings of the more primitive mind”, these 17<SUP>th</SUP> century scientist were very heavy hitters. For anyone who has studied some of the simpler mathematical concepts that Newton developed such as single variable Calculus, it is almost beyond belief that one person could have come up with this material with nothing more than a calk board, and very limited paper and pen. <st1:City w:st="on"><st1lace w:st="on">Newton</st1lace></st1:City> and others mentioned above were the fathers of western rationalism. The physics that we use today is still about 90% Newtonian Physics, with the remainder being chemistry that uses the quantum idea of entangled electrons, or “smeared electrons” that have allowed us to develop better materials, both organic, and non-organic. Once again, we humans want black or white ideas and answers, and tend to close our minds when something goes against what we think we know. pb
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /><o> </o>

 

[trainedobserver]

We're not talking about belief. We're talking about studying something in depth, over a long period of time, with a skeptical attitude and from initial incredulity. I can have my mind changed by evidence, if the evidence is compelling enough at a deep level of study. For me, eventually it was.

That's fair enough. Can you summarize in a few words what the mechanism is that makes it work? How do the motions and positions of planets control, influence, or predict human behavior or events? And a side thought, "Do charts for animals work as well?"

I think you might be able to use such things as Tarot Cards and Astrology as tools for psychological insight (with no little risk of self deception) but I don't think they have anything to do outside that. The main reason I say this is because Astrology appears to put humanity at some unreasonable level of significance in the universe. In fact it seems to suggest that the universe is human-centric which is an absurdity. Do I have a misunderstanding of where Astrology put humanity in the universe?

 

[Angel of Ioren]

That's fair enough. Can you summarize in a few words what the mechanism is that makes it work? How do the motions and positions of planets control, influence, or predict human behavior or events? And a side thought, "Do charts for animals work as well?"

I think you might be able to use such things as Tarot Cards and Astrology as tools for psychological insight (with no little risk of self deception) but I don't think they have anything to do outside that. The main reason I say this is because Astrology appears to put humanity at some unreasonable level of significance in the universe. In fact it seems to suggest that the universe is human-centric which is an absurdity. Do I have a misunderstanding of where Astrology put humanity in the universe?

I think astrology implies that the universe has an effect on humans that are born at a specific time. The way the stars are arranged at the time of your birth will determine if you are passive, determined, hard headed, etc.
It seems to me, if you believe astrology is real, you also believe that your personality is pre-determined. I'm sorry, but there's no way I can believe that.

 

[The Pair of Cats]

In fact it seems to suggest that the universe is human-centric which is an absurdity. Do I have a misunderstanding of where Astrology put humanity in the universe?

We know, already, what the influence of the moon and its cycles are on the earth. The movement of the tides, the effect on the female menses. If you ask policemen, paramedics, doctors and nurses about the effect of the full moon many will tell you of the increased activity in human psychological behavior at that time. It is said that the planets in our solar system, whilst much further away, still exert some influence on humans albeit in a much more subtle way.
I think what Astrology does is examine the influences of the universe on humans. The position of the planets, their aspects to other planets and the subsequent influence. It's archetypal and psychological. Also the type of upbringing an individual has, be it cultural or racial.

---------- Post added at 09:57 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:47 AM ----------

It seems to me, if you believe astrology is real, you also believe that your personality is pre-determined. I'm sorry, but there's no way I can believe that.

That's not entirely true. Your natal or birth chart provides a blueprint or a recipe if you will to your development as a human. Cultural biases, your family life, peer group pressure, all play a significant role in a persons early psychological formation. If you had an extremely hard family life, your reaction to the "blueprint" provided may be extremely different than if you had a ideal upbringing. If you were born in to a strict fundamentalist christian or muslim family you may have had your personality shaped in a different way than if you were born into a free love, hippy lifestyle.

 

[Angel of Ioren]

We know, already, what the influence of the moon and its cycles are on the earth. The movement of the tides, the effect on the female menses. If you ask policemen, paramedics, doctors and nurses about the effect of the full moon many will tell you of the increased activity in human psychological behavior at that time. It is said that the planets in our solar system, whilst much further away, still exert some influence on humans albeit in a much more subtle way.
I think what Astrology does is examine the influences of the universe on humans. The position of the planets, their aspects to other planets and the subsequent influence. It's archetypal and psychological. Also the type of upbringing an individual has, be it cultural or racial.

---------- Post added at 09:57 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:47 AM ----------



That's not entirely true. Your natal or birth chart provides a blueprint or a recipe if you will to your development as a human. Cultural biases, your family life, peer group pressure, all play a significant role in a persons early psychological formation. If you had an extremely hard family life, your reaction to the "blueprint" provided may be extremely different than if you had a ideal upbringing. If you were born in to a strict fundamentalist christian or muslim family you may have had your personality shaped in a different way than if you were born into a free love, hippy lifestyle.

Two things:

Read what Phil Plait has to say about how the gravity of the moon affects us.
Phil Plait's Bad Astronomy: Mad Science


The effect of the full moon has NOTHING to do with it's gravity since is doesn't get any closer to us when it's full - that's the Earth's shadow. However, the light it shines on us can have a psychological effect.

The other thing is, judging what you said (and please correct me if I have misinterpreted it), you natal chart is a blueprint that can be completely changed by your surroundings. So in essence is has nothing to do with your personality.
It's really interesting how we have completely different views on this. It would be hilarious if we shared the same sign!

 

[Elendil]

This natal chart stuff sounds like the creation of a character in a role-playing game. The cosmic AD&D.

Maybe thing are really going that way - we are all players in a game, born with certain gifts and faults. If the stuff of the charts is for real, you could more easily recognize your faults and do some personal growth.

I also find the forecasting stuff the least believable. But the thing Archie sad about synastry is interesting. Even though I find some things stupid - for example stuff like: Aries can't go with Cancer, period. When you take a look at the charts, it seems that everyone is like a mish-mash of many signs in one. This planet is in Leo, this one in Virgo and so on. And them Houses too, more complicating the matter. So I guess when you say synastry - you basically mean an in-depth analysis based upon the charts, right? Not just the two sun signs compared?

 

[The Pair of Cats]

Two things:

Read what Phil Plait has to say about how the gravity of the moon affects us.
Phil Plait's Bad Astronomy: Mad Science

The effect of the full moon has NOTHING to do with it's gravity since is doesn't get any closer to us when it's full - that's the Earth's shadow. However, the light it shines on us can have a psychological effect.

It's curious how the menstrual cycle is a 28 day cycle and so is the moon's.
So you concede that the moon, as in its light, can have an effect on us? I worked in a Hospital Emergency Dept. for 3 1/2 years as part of that dept.'s Emergency Response Team and believe me there was an increased amount of psychological, often violent types of patients presenting or being brought in by Ambulance and Police officers. In talking to those same people along with the staff in the dept they were almost unanimous in their opinions that as the moon became full the work rate for those involved increased markedly.

The other thing is, judging what you said (and please correct me if I have misinterpreted it), you natal chart is a blueprint that can be completely changed by your surroundings. So in essence is has nothing to do with your personality.
It's really interesting how we have completely different views on this.

No. What i was trying to say was that how you, the individual, use the blueprint you were given. It can be influenced by your surroundings. Maybe there are parts of your personality that are repressed due to those same influences especially in a repressive environment. those same repressed traits may floursh in a more open, less restrictive one. It can also be true that once removed from any environment into another at a later stage in life those same traits can either come to the fore or be repressed as the case may be. All the natal chart does is provide a recipe. How that recipe is prepared or indeed cooked is up to the individual.

It would be hilarious if we shared the same sign!

Okay so what is your birthdate?

---------- Post added at 11:06 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:57 AM ----------

This natal chart stuff sounds like the creation of a character in a role-playing game. The cosmic AD&D.

Maybe thing are really going that way - we are all players in a game, born with certain gifts and faults. If the stuff of the charts is for real, you could more easily recognize your faults and do some personal growth.

I also find the forecasting stuff the least believable. But the thing Archie sad about synastry is interesting. Even though I find some things stupid - for example stuff like: Aries can't go with Cancer, period. When you take a look at the charts, it seems that everyone is like a mish-mash of many signs in one. This planet is in Leo, this one in Virgo and so on. And them Houses too, more complicating the matter. So I guess when you say synastry - you basically mean an in-depth analysis based upon the charts, right? Not just the two sun signs compared?

Forecasting or prediction in any method of divination is fraught with pitfalls. Astrology is good, as you intimated, as a tool for personal growth or the study of the relationship of one thing to another, one person to another.

 

[Angel of Ioren]

It's curious how the menstrual cycle is a 28 day cycle and so is the moon's. So you concede that the moon, as in its light, can have an effect on us? I worked in a Hospital Emergency Dept. for 3 1/2 years as part of that dept.'s Emergency Response Team and believe me there was an increased amount of psychological, often violent types of patients presenting or being brought in by Ambulance and Police officers. In talking to those same people along with the staff in the dept they were almost unanimous in their opinions that as the moon became full the work rate for those involved increased markedly.

My wife swears that the kids in her classroom go nuts during the full moon, and her friend says the hospital is a crazy place. The light has an effect on animals, and if people are outside at night, but a lot of it is confirmation bias ( at least that's my thought on it - I could be wrong). I don't know though. I've never noticed anything being strange during the full moon, more so than anything else. I had a crazy week this week at work, but the full moon is next week.

Okay so what is your birthdate?

October 26.