August 21, 2016 — Paul Davids

[ProphetofOccam]

Just let the poor guy have his afterlife.

Keep in mind, this thread started out being about an adorably naive and otherwise pleasant guy who is unable to tell when people are just being polite. The show I just listened to didn't seem to be a huge segue into debates about the nature of consciousness, unless we're all going to talk about how existential perspective can remove a human person's ability to distinguish between genuine interest and friendly small talk.

 

[Randall]

Just let the poor guy have his afterlife.

Keep in mind, this thread started out being about an adorably naive and otherwise pleasant guy who is unable to tell when people are just being polite. The show I just listened to didn't seem to be a huge segue into debates about the nature of consciousness, unless we're all going to talk about how existential perspective can remove a human person's ability to distinguish between genuine interest and friendly small talk.

There are times when I agree that we should just let the baby have his bottle, but when the baby starts back-talking, it seems to me that getting them off the bottle is long overdue ... LOL.

 

[Christopher O'Brien]

I don't have time to engage in a 2,000+ post thread that debates the most fundamental of all scientific questions: What is the true nature of consciousness and how is it that we can cause our fist to close, make the arm cock back to throw a punch and then ask your arm & fist to break somebody's face? YOU don't know. The best intellects and theorists in numerous applicable fields don't know.

Here is Ed Witten, perhaps the smartest person on the planet: “There are terms with which we have an intuitive feeling, but we don’t define them. There are concepts like consciousness and happiness about which we have an intuitive feeling, which I believe we share. We can’t exactly define them. We can say from what we derive happiness, but I don’t think we can define happiness. We can say when we’ve been happy, or what we see as some of the sources of happiness, but we can’t explain what we mean by happiness, but generally speaking we don’t have to because other people know, luckily. ” – Edward Witten or this other observation: "I have a much easier time imaging how we will understand the big bang than I can imagine understanding consciousness.” – Edward Witten.

Yeah, you guys have it all figured out. You should prepare a powerpoint presentation and take you informed opinion on the road. Give workshops, write blogs, start your own radio show! You seem to have plenty of time to chastise me (and others?) for not engaging in your intellectual, pointXpoint exercises in logic and pontificated debate. Frankly Randall, engaging w/ you like that? Lol that's about least of my priorities right now. LOL I ain't the sharpest tack-in-the-pack but I do research and have the ability to back up & qualify my informed opinions when the time it would take is warranted.

I'm a busy guy w/ too much of a life. FWIW: The SLV team just re-established the SLV base station location w/ the installation of the camera (I am getting a 'net connection and Gene's helping w/ the 'net live streaming, etc), I'm also re-starting my brother's Tierra Maya Imports Mayan glyph product line (need to get hydraulic calcium from NM to make pieces, to fill orders) ; I'm shopping 2 screenplays and finalizing our agent and have script Dr sessions to schedule; I have the 3rd GC Confluence trip (planned for the 1st wk of Oct) to administer, plus, I have a working trip to Thailand booked for November to plan for... should I continue? OK. I'm leaving in 2 days for a trip to NM to pick up glyph molds, buy material and also head to Santa Fe to finalize the new book. It's our last organizational session (w/ Izzy) for the co-authored followup that analyzes Stalking the Herd. Plus, I'm driving tours up to the Grand Canyon in between and helping market the tour company for the new owner. This baby & the bottle just finished editing the new tour promo video, plus, the new paracast+ video Contact in the Desert and I worked a 3 day conference video shoot last weekend. Bug Gene to post Contact. Oh, YAY! I just found a computer today to help my transcribest catch up. Too bad you live all the way up there—I could sure use your help!

So, what have you been up too Randall? Besides your wonderful, erudite posts what are you up to? Tell us about YOUR front-burner projects!

 

[Randall]

Chris's point about consciousness is a good one. Until we can definitively identify what consciousness is, and if a soul is even a thing, or a necessity for consciousness, I think it's scientifically irresponsible to dismiss the possibility when hints of such exist.

The thing is, we have identified what consciousness is on a subjective phenomenological level, that is to say on the level of our experience of what it's like for us to be ourselves. In fact on that level, that is pretty much the definition of what consciousness is. It's our subjective experience of what it's like to be ourselves. However that definition of what consciousness is, is different than identifying what consciousness is on a physical level ( what physical components it's made of ). Significant in-roads have been made on that front by examining the structure and function of the brain, to the extent that it is beyond any reasonable doubt that the brain is responsible for consciousness.

The common counterpoint to this evidence is to point out that we don't exactly know how the brain produces consciousness and therefore it's merely a correlation rather than definitive cause and effect. It doesn't seem to matter to some of those people that the Thalamocortical Loop ( some info here ) is about as definitive a correlation between the brain and consciousness as light is to a light bulb. But apart from that we don't need to know exactly how consciousness is produced by the brain ( or anything else ) in order to draw some certain conclusions about the subject of life after death, because that issue doesn't require knowing what creates and sustains consciousness or what it physically is.

Answering the question of life after death only requires that we have an understanding of what is meant by that phrase and the evidence that we have that is readily available. It makes no difference whether the world we live in is an illusion, or whether consciousness is a product of a remote system rather than our own brain, or a magical manifestation of a Genie in a bottle. Along with the disappearance of whatever we believe is or might be responsible for consciousness, logically if that source disappears, consciousness must disappear along with it. This is the basic logic, and there is equally powerful logic to handle other contingencies as well.

You don't want to stumble into the realm of belief in either direction. Perhaps the soul is the source code of our simulation feeding the parameters for what is you. Who knows? Does an ant colony have a soul, a consciousness as a whole or do we look at each individual's thoughts and ponder the possibility of a soul being tied to such a limited series of actions. A book that some of you might find interesting regarding the ponderance of consciousness (in this case, with the future of A.I. as the motivation) .....
The Mind's I: Fantasies and Reflections on Self and Soul
by Douglas R. Hofstadter (editor), Daniel C. Dennett (editor)

When it comes to the topic of the "soul", we're inundated with a variety of interpretations. In my Encarta dictionary there are 12 different definitions, and it seems to me that believers in life after death tend to leverage that confusion to bolster their mystical positions. However, a really objective look at what is meant by the term "soul" appears to reveal that it is virtually indistinguishable from the term "personality". We can say Sally is a gentle soul or that Sally has a gentle personality. Tim is a carefree spirit, or Tim has a carefree personality. Jody is a very deep soul, or Jody has a complex personality.

Every aspect that we think of as personality can be projected onto the idea of a "spirit person", or entity, and therefore, in the absence of any evidence for this separate entity, it seems obvious that the concept of a soul as some sort of entity amounts to nothing more than an anthropomorphized abstract concept rather than anything objectively real. This demystification of the term can really help those lost in the mystique of New Age and religious thinking get their bearings by offering rational equivalencies from psychology, psychiatry, and neuroscience.

 

[Randall]

I don't have time to engage in a 2,000+ post thread that debates the most fundamental of all scientific questions: What is the true nature of consciousness and how is it that we can cause our fist to close, make the arm cock back to throw a punch and then ask your arm & fist to break somebody's face? YOU don't know. The best intellects and theorists in numerous applicable fields don't know.

No time, no problem. But it seems you missed the whole point. It's not necessary to know the "true nature of consciousness" and every bit of minutiae on the subject to address the question of life after death as it is commonly portrayed. It's only necessary to know how it's commonly portrayed, and then compare that to what we do know about living people, personality, and personal identity. At some point when you're less busy with other things, you can contemplate these factors for yourself and point out more specifically where the points I've made are weak or need improvement.

I'm a busy guy w/ too much of a life ... Too bad you live all the way up there—I could sure use your help ... So, what have you been up too Randall? Besides your wonderful, erudite posts what are you up to? Tell us about YOUR front-burner projects!

I'm certainly not one to knock your accomplishments or your projects. I praise you without hesitation for all your constructive effort and have said numerous times that the field could use more people like you, but that doesn't give you license to make your misplaced slams against my character, and the more you do that the less I care what you've done or have to say. The toxicity I've encountered on both sides of the fence in this field has led me to back away from the whole of the subject. It seems one has to be either a rabid skeptic or a wide eyed believer or they're open season from both camps. Whatever happened to separating the signal from the noise?

As for my life and my own projects. I don't know what I'm going to do. I'm in a state of transition. After losing my life-partner I've considered selling everything and moving someplace where nobody knows me and starting a whole new life that has nothing to do with any of this. I'm tired of feeling hurt and misunderstood by people who assume I'm this way or that without really getting to know me. I'm also tired of exposing myself to toxic employers, ridicule, and personal slams. Even when nobody is giving me a hard time on a personal level, it seems I'm still getting screwed 24/7 by the system in some way shape or form and it's wearing me down.

But then again pretty much every other average citizen has to contend with much of the same BS in their lives too, so I should probably count my blessings and consider myself lucky that I don't live in the Middle East or some God forsaken warlord run African state. I'd like to be able to help you out with your projects, and it would definitely be advantageous if we were in the same neighborhood because maybe then we could hash out things in-person in a way that would result in more constructive cooperation. Maybe it would even give me a new direction to explore in life. I don't know.

On the other hand, I do have a lot of unfinished projects of my own that I should probably work on more than I do. But I also like the Paracast, and I enjoy writing, and the forum gives me a place to do that and network and reflect and share views with others. For the most part, the folks here don't give me too much grief. In fact I have received many very positive messages in the time I've been here, and with over 4300 likes, I must be doing something right at least some of the time, and I really appreciate all of them. So I'll just end on that positive note and hope things start to go better

 

[technomage]

No time, no problem. But it seems you missed the whole point. It's not necessary to know the "true nature of consciousness" and every bit of minutiae on the subject to address the question of life after death as it is commonly portrayed. It's only necessary to know how it's commonly portrayed, and then compare that to what we do know about living people, personality, and personal identity. At some point when you're less busy with other things, you can contemplate these factors for yourself and point out more specifically where the points I've made are weak or need improvement.

I'm certainly not one to knock your accomplishments or your projects. I praise you without hesitation for all your constructive effort and have said numerous times that the field could use more people like you, but that doesn't give you license to make your misplaced slams against my character, and the more you do that the less I care what you've done or have to say. The toxicity I've encountered on both sides of the fence in this field has led me to back away from the whole of the subject. It seems one has to be either a rabid skeptic or a wide eyed believer or they're open season from both camps. Whatever happened to separating the signal from the noise?

As for my life and my own projects. I don't know what I'm going to do. I'm in a state of transition. After losing my life-partner I've considered selling everything and moving someplace where nobody knows me and starting a whole new life that has nothing to do with any of this. I'm tired of feeling hurt and misunderstood by people who assume I'm this way or that without really getting to know me. I'm also tired of exposing myself to toxic employers, ridicule, and personal slams. Even when nobody is giving me a hard time on a personal level, it seems I'm still getting screwed 24/7 by the system in some way shape or form and it's wearing me down.

But then again pretty much every other average citizen has to contend with much of the same BS in their lives too, so I should probably count my blessings and consider myself lucky that I don't live in the Middle East or some God forsaken warlord run African state. I'd like to be able to help you out with your projects, and it would definitely be advantageous if we were in the same neighborhood because maybe then we could hash out things in-person in a way that would result in more constructive cooperation. Maybe it would even give me a new direction to explore in life. I don't know.

On the other hand, I do have a lot of unfinished projects of my own that I should probably work on more than I do. But I also like the Paracast, and I enjoy writing, and the forum gives me a place to do that and network and reflect and share views with others. For the most part, the folks here don't give me too much grief. In fact I have received many very positive messages in the time I've been here, and with over 4300 likes, I must be doing something right at least some of the time, and I really appreciate all of them. So I'll just end on that positive note and hope things start to go better

What is your professional background (i.e. what professional skills do you have)? If you have an insurance or technical background (i.e. software development or equivalent), I can certainly keep you in mind if opportunities open up on my end. Your writing is very good (if not overly wordy, but I think that's my ADD problem and not yours) and apparently, a person with good writing skills is much harder to come by than expected.

 

[Randall]

What is your professional background (i.e. what professional skills do you have)? If you have an insurance or technical background (i.e. software development or equivalent), I can certainly keep you in mind if opportunities open up on my end. Your writing is very good (if not overly wordy, but I think that's my ADD problem and not yours) and apparently, a person with good writing skills is much harder to come by than expected.

Thanks! I'll start a separate conversation for Ideas & Networking. I'll try to be more concise too. Ironically, I think my wordiness stems from my own ADD. I tend to think very stream of consciousness, so unless I put it in check, my writing will drift from one Bezier curve point to the next, creating a web of interconnecting ideas, many of which are removed from the original topic of discussion. Now what was I supposed to be doing? Oh yes, is that toast I smell burning ?

 

[ChrisJohnsen]

Here's what I thought of after catching up with the latest posts above, particularly inspired by Randall sharing some of his recent personal struggles.

​

 

[Randall]

Here's what I thought of after catching up with the latest posts above, particularly inspired by Randall sharing some of his recent personal struggles.

Everyone you meet is fighting a battle you know nothing about. Be kind. Always.​

Thanks for the sentiment. I just want to say here that that also applies to @Christopher O'Brien, but he doesn't advertise it much, and I suspect the angst there lately is due to the added stress of being overworked, underpaid, and underappreciated, and that has led to some unfortunate misconceptions, and I'm just catching some of the fallout. Plus I know my approach to looking at the issues, although unintentionally off-putting, just rubs some people the wrong way sometimes, and I've been trying to work on that too because I'm not perfect either. Now: With respect to that word "Always" ... are you sure there aren't one or two exceptions someplace ...

Like are you sure that all this big fella needs is a great big hug ... LOL

​

 

[Sue]

As for my life and my own projects. I don't know what I'm going to do. I'm in a state of transition. After losing my life-partner I've considered selling everything and moving someplace where nobody knows me and starting a whole new life that has nothing to do with any of this. I'm tired of feeling hurt and misunderstood by people who assume I'm this way or that without really getting to know me. I'm also tired of exposing myself to toxic employers, ridicule, and personal slams. Even when nobody is giving me a hard time on a personal level, it seems I'm still getting screwed 24/7 by the system in some way shape or form and it's wearing me down.

Speaking from experience, I'd say sell everything and take the rest to the dump. This can actually work; times of transition are a great if unpleasant opportunity. Take your feelings of hurt and misunderstanding to the dump, too. No one cares how you feel. It's sad, but it's reality. Work hard to be a good friend to someone who needs a friend. That's what makes a difference.

 

[Randall]

Speaking from experience, I'd say sell everything and take the rest to the dump. This can actually work; times of transition are a great if unpleasant opportunity. Take your feelings of hurt and misunderstanding to the dump, too. No one cares how you feel. It's sad, but it's reality. Work hard to be a good friend to someone who needs a friend. That's what makes a difference.

Thanks Sue. I feel so much better now ... ( not that you care ) ... LOL, and I've been doing as you suggest with a couple of people in my life here who are really great. But one thing you might underestimate is that there are people who do care about how others feel. There are limits and rules and so on, but within those boundaries I care about others in general, including people I don't even know, and I don't want to lose that part of myself.

I especially care about people's paranormal experiences because to me, they are a profound thing that on a certain level unites many of us in a common realization that adds a dimension to our worldview that cannot be truly appreciated unless it has been experienced. I like them to know they are not alone, and I dedicate all my time on these projects and forums to those people.

I imagine that this is one of the points that @Christopher O'Brien keeps trying to impress on me about his experiences with psychedelics, and there are probably other types of experiences that have their own unique effect, like seeing the Earth from space. I think we should care about these things and about each other to the extent that we can without compromising ourselves too much, and on that level I'm sure there are more caring people than me in the world. Some people give up almost everything and become volunteer charity workers. I'm way too selfish for that, but at least I recognize my own hypocrisy and still care to some degree.

So please don't think nobody cares or that nobody cares about you. I don't even know you and I think your addition to the round table discussions has been fabulous and I'm glad we're chatting because I care. And I imagine that you must have friends and acquaintances who aren't all just fake or fair-weather friends. Still, maybe I'll load up that dump truck as you suggest and drop a load or two off at the karmic landfill. I really loved that suggestion ( assuming I took it the right way ). It made me feel better and is actually some really good advice too. Thanks .

 

[Spectre73]

I agree Ufology. People do indeed care. I read your post the other day with great interest. I don't know you but I like your posts , I enjoy your presence on the show, yes I do care and wish you well.

 

[Christopher O'Brien]

Don't listen to my ranting and try not to take it personally. usually if I reply to a post before 10 AM, I come across a bit raspy. It's not you (it might be partially your frustratingly methodical, volumous posts) that set me off, it's the reductionist thinking & condescending tone perhaps? I dunno. What do I know?

 

[Walter Bosley]

Don't listen to my ranting and try not to take it personally. usually if I reply to a post before 10 AM, I come across a bit raspy. It's not you (it might be partially your frustratingly methodical, volumous posts) that set me off, it's the reductionist thinking & condescending tone perhaps? I dunno. What do I know?

I'm in that club but for me it's anytime before noon. And the reductionist crap gets to me, too, at any hour of my day.

 

[Randall]

Don't listen to my ranting and try not to take it personally. usually if I reply to a post before 10 AM, I come across a bit raspy. It's not you (it might be partially your frustratingly methodical, volumous posts) that set me off, it's the reductionist thinking & condescending tone perhaps? I dunno. What do I know?

Thanks for cutting me some slack there Chris. I'll try to keep my response short and to the point:

• On personal comments: The easiest way to avoid having comments taken personally is not to make personal comments.
• On being methodical: What ways can I adjust my methodology to make it less frustrating for you?
• On being voluminous: Either too vague or too wordy. Hitting the goldilocks zone there for everyone is harder than it sounds. Suggestions are always welcome.
• On reductionism: Reductionism is a complex topic. I suggest we deal with that in bite sized pieces ( LOL ).
• On condescension: In text based communication, the tone that is perceived by the reader is not necessarily the tone that was intended by the writer, and condescension is never my intention.

 

[zaphrella]

The Ignore button is a wonderful thing as a forum feature. Just sayin'.

 

[Randall]

I'm in that club but for me it's anytime before noon. And the reductionist crap gets to me, too, at any hour of my day.

Why exactly does that "reductionist crap" get to you? Why do you think it's crap? What do you even mean by "reductionist". Are you and Chris are even talking about the same thing? The fact is that you've just made a negatively opinionated generalization based on incomplete information without even being sure we're all referencing the same thing in the same context.

 

[Randall]

The Ignore button is a wonderful thing as a forum feature. Just sayin'.

You know there are times when you're absolutely right, but then again, if you ignore everyone who doesn't just agree with you, and you never hash things out, then you lessen the chances of learning something new and interesting, so I've learned to take a fair bit of flak, and there have been some really good rewards as a result. But some days ... man-o-man ... some days ... LOL.

 

[Walter Bosley]

Why exactly does that "reductionist crap" get to you? Why do you think it's crap? What do you even mean by "reductionist". Are you and Chris are even talking about the same thing? The fact is that you've just made a negatively opinionated generalization based on incomplete information without even being sure we're all referencing the same thing in the same context.

How do you know? How about you reduce the reactionary assumptions. Besides, I was commenting on what Chris said, not what you said, so I wasn't addressing you. Therefore, in less verbose terms than you're accustomed to, lighten up.

 

[Randall]

How do you know?

I know that you made a negatively opinionated generalization based on incomplete information without even being sure we're all referencing the same thing in the same context because:

1. You used the word "crap" which in this context a subjective derogatory term that fits the objective definition of the word "negative".
2. You used a subjective evaluation rather than a statement of fact, which constitutes an opinion.
3. You cannot be sure you know the context we're all using the term "reductionist" in because I'm not sure because we haven't discussed that, and therefore that makes it impossible for you to know.
4. Together 1 & 2 & 3 represent sufficient evidence to conclude that the statement I made is true, and therefore factual rather than mere opinion.

How about you reduce the reactionary assumptions.

That appears to be a loaded rhetorical question and is therefore an informal fallacy that requires no answer. Perhaps you might want to rephrase.

Besides, I was commenting on what Chris said, not what you said, so I wasn't addressing you.

We're all in this conversation together. This is not a private conversation between you and Chris. If you want to have a private conversation with Chris where you can agree with his comments about me without my participation, then open a private conversation with him and you two can rant and rave behind my back all you want ... LOL. After all, what I don't see won't bother me. Or would not bothering me just ruin the effect for you ?

Therefore, in less verbose terms than you're accustomed to, lighten up.

That's more loaded language that doesn't address the issue of what you mean by reductionism or why you think it's crap. But thanks for asking how I know that what I said was true, because having the opportunity to explain it to you has definitely put a smile on my face ... LOL.