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Be Afraid

Free episodes:

Ufology and Decker, you desperately need a reality check: Latinos' use of health services studied - Los Angeles Times

I will maintain my position that the issue is probably much more complex issue than most people realize and that there is probably some truth on both sides of the equation. Consider the following from the article you posted:

On one hand: "In Los Angeles County, much of the focus of that debate has been on hospital emergency rooms. Ten have closed in the last five years, citing losses from treating the uninsured, and those that remain open are notorious for backlogs."

On the other: Ortega, an associate professor at UCLA's School of Public Health says. "In fact, they seem to be underutilizing the system, given their health needs."

So the actual emergency room people cited the same reason as Decker, while an academic from UCLA says that it's not as bad as some people think. Both situations may be correct. Certainly the people who used to work in the ten locations seem to have "lived it". However Ortega sidesteps that specific issue by drawing statistics from a randomized telephone survey. No matter how one spins the statistics it still boils down to this: The added drain from fewer people than believed could still amount to the tipping point for certain over capacity services. Not only that, but in the absence of records that show the closure claims are fabricated, the reasons for the closures would be based on general accounting principles, and in theory those should be much more detailed and accurate than any random telephone survey. Lastly, if those ten locations didn't close for the reasons stated, why did they really close and where is the evidence?
 
The uranium-lead radiometric dating scheme has been refined to the point that the error margin in dates of rocks can be as low as less than two million years in two-and-a-half billion years.[12][17] An error margin of 2–5% has been achieved on younger Mesozoic rocks.[

Wow only off by "as low as less than two million years in two-and-a-half billion years" I guess being off by two million years is no big deal when we are talking about billions of years :-P I am actually surprised that they admitted this..........AND this is the error rate in samples of YOUNGER rocks. Yeah this is quite the cutting edge technique we have here. I would bet my grannys life on this one * sarcasm intended*

Results of testing with potassium Argon dating-


Potassium-Argon Radiodating Theory
(1) The radioisotope 40K constitutes 0.012% of all naturally occurring potassium. S.T. Butler & H. Messel, "A Modern Introduction to Physics" (vol. 3), Howitz Pub. Inc. P/L & Grahame Book Co P/L: Sydney, p:24 1962
(2) 40K has a half-life of 1.31 billion years.
(3) 40K (parent isotope) breaks down to 40Ar (daughter isotope) by gaining an electron.
kdecay.gif

(4) "Because argon is a gas, the structures of minerals crystallizing from magma do not retain it, although many of these minerals may include rather abundant potassium. The radiogenic argon that builds up in potassium-rich minerals after they have crystallized, therefore, furnishes a good measure of the age of the sample." M.E. Bickford, et al (eds) "Geology Today", CRM Books: Del Mar (California), p:427 1973
(5) "One of the main uses of potassium-argon in recent years has been in determining the ages of quite young samples, for example, those less than 60 million years old. The rubidium-strontium and uranium-lead techniques are very difficult to use with such samples, because the slow decay rates of the parent isotopes have not allowed a significant increase in the daughter isotopes." M.E. Bickford, et al (eds) "Geology Today", CRM Books: Del Mar (California), p:427-428 1973
(6) "The principal difficulty with the potassium-argon method lies in the fact that argon is a gas and can escape from the crystals of minerals in which it accumulates. Commonly the ages of minerals from rather old rocks dated by the potassium-argon method are lower than the ages obtained by either the rubidium-strontium and uranium-lead dating. Moreover, many studies have demonstrated that argon escapes readily during metamorphic events when rocks become heated and partially crystallized." M.E. Bickford, et al (eds) "Geology Today", CRM Books: Del Mar (California), p:427 1973

Background to the K-Ar Dating Experiment
  • Some rocks of known age have been inaccurately assessed using the K-Ar method.
For example:

SITE
ROCK TYPE
DATE OF FORMATION
K-Ar
ASSESSED AGE
Haualalai (Hawaii)

Basalt

AD 1800-1801

1.6 million years old

Mt Etna (Sicily)

Basalt

122 BC

0.25 million years old

Mt Etna (Sicily)

Basalt

AD 1792

0.35 million years old

Mt Lassen (California)

Plagioclase

AD 1915

0.11 million years old

Sunset Crater (Arizona)

Basalt

AD 1064-1065

0.27 million years old


[G.B. Dalrymple, Earth and Planetary Sciences Letters, Vol. 6, p:47-55 1969]

The Experiment
  • Dr Steven A. Austin (PhD), Professor of Geology (Institute of Creation Research, San Diego, California) used the K-Ar method to date porphyritic dacite rock produced by the Mt St Helens eruption in 1986.


The Sample of Rock
(1) A 7 Kg sample of dacite was collected from the north-west slope of the lava dome formed from the 1986 flow.
(2) A 1 Kg block of rock was sawn from inside the sample. This sample had not been exposed to the argon in the air over the 10 years since it was formed.
(3) The chemical analysis of the sample showed that it was typical porphyritic dacite.

The Preparation of the Rock for Testing
(1) The test block was washed thoroughly to remove any outside contamination.
(2) The rock was crushed and milled using an iron mortar.
(3) Rock powder was sieved through thoroughly washed screens.
(4) The sieved material was washed to remove any contamination from the air.
(5) The resultant powder had a particle size of 0.180-0.075 mm.
(6) The powdered rock was filtered using heavy liquids to remove any contamination.
(7) Part of the powder was separated into four different mineral samples - feldspar-glass, heavy magnetic, heavy non-magnetic, and pyroxene.
(8) Each sample was scanned under the microscope to ensure that there were no foreign particles in them.
(9) The samples were stored in vials away from the air and dust.

The K-Ar Dating Test
(1) The 5 samples were analysed by the Geochron Laboratories, Cambridge, Massachusetts under the direction of Richard Reesman.
(2) The lab was not told where the rock came from, or that the age of the rock was known.
(3) Flame photometry was used to measure the amount of K (%).
(4) The amount of 40K (ppm) was calculated from the terrestrial isotopic abundance using the K concentration.
(5) The concentration of 40Ar ('radiogenic argon-40') was derived using a mass spectrometer.
(6) Two measurements for each element were taken and an average calculated from them.
(7) The ratio of 40Ar to the total Argon was measured using a mass spectrometer.

The Age Calculation
(1) The age was calculated using the 'general model-age equation'.
t=1/l ln [((Dt-Do)/Pt)+1]
t = the age of the rock
l = the decay constant for 40K (5.543x10-10/yr)
Dt = the number of 40Ar atoms in the rock when it was analysed
Do = the number of 40Ar atoms in the rock when it was formed
Pt = the number of 40K atoms in the rock when it was analysed (0.105)
(2) The equation becomes:- t=1/(5.543x10-10) ln [((1/0.105)(40Ar/40K))+1]

The Results
  • The ten year old rock was given the following estimated ages:-


Mineral Sample
40K
[ppm]
40Ar
[ppm]
Calculated Age
[million years]
Whole rock

1.102

0.0000225

0.35 ± 0.05

Feldspar-glass

1.250

0.0000250

0.34 ± 0.06

Heavy magnetic

0.693

0.0000370

0.90 ± 0.20

Heavy non-magnetic

0.555

0.0000540

1.70 ± 0.30

Pyroxene

0.533

0.0000870

2.80 ± 0.60



Analysis of the Dating Method
(1) It was an assumption that: Dt-Do = 40Ar
(2) "As a matter of practice, no radiogenic argon is supposed to have existed when the rock was formed." CEN Tech. J., Vol. 10, No. 3, p:340 1996
(3) Because the rock was ten years old, there was no time for 40Ar to form from 40K. Therefore any 40Ar measured was not radiogenic argon.
(4) "The argon analysis of the dacite lava dome show, surprisingly, a non-zero concentration of 'radiogenic argon' (40Ar) in all preparations from the dacite." CEN Tech. J., Vol. 10, No. 3, p:340 1996
(5) Different minerals were shown to contain varying amounts of argon gas.
(6) Verifying this:-"The solubility of Ar in the minerals [olivine] is surprisingly high." Broadhurst, et al, Geochimica et Cosmochimica, Vol. 54, p:299-309

The Conclusion of the Test
  • K-Ar Radiometric dating does not yield accurate ages under test conditions.

  • "The primary assumption upon which K-Ar model-age dating is based assumes zero 40Ar in the mineral phases of a rock when it solidifies. This assumption has been shown to be faulty." CEN Tech. J., Vol. 10, No. 3, p:342 1996



Doesn't the Isochron Method Prove that K-Ar is Correct?
  • NO - "... some of the basic assumptions of the conventional Rb-Sr isochron method have to be modified and an observed isochron does not certainly define a valid age information for a geological system, even if a goodness of fit of the experimental data points is obtained in plotting 87Sr/66Sr vs. 87Rb/66Sr. This problem cannot be overlooked, especially in evaluating the numerical time scale. Similar questions can also arise in applying Sm-Nd and U-Pb isochron methods." Y.F. Zheng, "Influence of the Nature of the Initial Rb-Sr System on Isochron Validity", Chemical Geology, Vol. 80, 1989 p:14


This research is supported by more Recent K-Ar Tests
  • "Therefore, these considerations call into question all K-Ar 'dating', whether 'model ages' or 'isochron ages', and all 40Ar/39Ar 'dating', as well as 'fossil dating' that has been calibrated against K-Ar 'dates'." A.A. Snelling, "The Cause of Anomalous Potassium-Argon 'Ages' for Recent Andesite flows at Mt Ngauruhoe, New Zealand, and the Implications for Potassium-Argon 'Dating' ", Proceedings of the Fourth International Conference on Creationism, Technical Symposium Sessions, 1998 p:521


The Implications of the Test
(A) The varying mineral composition of the myriads of types of rocks negates the accuracy of the standard potassium-argon dating method.
(B) The potassium-argon method should not be used to calculate the ages of rocks.
(C) As all new radiometric dating methods are calibrated using dates from existing methods, any based directly or indirectly on the potassium-argon method should not be used to calculate the ages of rocks.

In added support - "[We] should therefore not be intimidated by claims that U-Th-Pb radiometric 'dating' has 'proved' the presumed great antiquity of the earth, and the strata and fossils of the so-called geologic column." A.A. Snelling, "U-Th-Pb 'Dating': An example of False 'Isochrons' ", Proceedings of the Third International Conference on Creationism, Technical Symposium Sessions, 1994 p:503



SOURCE - CEN Tech. J., Vol. 10, No. 3, p:335-343 1996


Would you call this accurate dating?


Should I go on ? Do you want me to expose all of them? I could overload the servers here. How about the pictures of supposed 110 million year old rock with wood in it....bring it. I have more info than you probably have the time to read or I have the time to post.

I'll get back to you .
 
First of all, being off by 2-5 million years when dealing with blocks of time over 1 billion years is an error margin of 2 and 5%, so no, I wouldn't say that's a big deal and it certainly still disproves the ridiculous assertion that the earth itself is no more than 10,000 years old.

Second, all of your sources are highly suspect, as they only come from creationist websites and many have been challenged by mainstream scientists with the author of these so called studies refusing to support their statements or engage in any kind of public debate as you'll see in the example I post. As to your question of would I like to see you discredit all of the dating methods? Absolutely, as you said, bring it, and I'd like to see if you can come up with anything that isn't from some ridiculous creationist website, but even if that's all you have I invite you to post it so I can dispute it.

Here's the example I was talking about....

Will the Real Dr Snelling Please
Stand Up?

Dr Alex Ritchie, The Skeptic, Vol. 11, No. 4, pp 12-15
Dr Alex Ritchie received his BSc. (Hons) in Geology and a Ph.D at the University of Edinburgh. He worked as a palaeontologist at the Australian Museum from 1968 to 1995 where he is currently a Research Fellow.
For several years, Australian creationists, representing the Creation Science Foundation Ltd, [now Answers in Genesis] have been publishing articles and addressing school and public groups on the topic of the age of the Earth. The theme of these articles and talks is that there is scientific evidence that the geological features of Australia are explicable within the context of an Earth which is only some 6-10,000 years old and that most such features can be attributed to a world-wide flood which occurred more recently still. The author of these claims made them with the authority of a BSc (Hons) in Geology and a PhD. However, in a recently published paper, this same author makes some very different claims about the age of geological features of the Australian landscape.
These remarkably contradictory, and unexplained, claims by one of the very few Australian creation 'scientists' who has genuine scientific qualifications, calls into question whether anything said by this group on the subject can be taken seriously.
Dr Alex Ritchie, palaeontologist at the Australian Museum, takes up the story.
There appear to be two geologists living, working and publishing in Australia under the name of Dr Andrew A Snelling. Both have impressive (and identical) scientific qualifications - a BSc (Hons), in Geology (University of NSW) and a PhD, for research in uranium mineralisation (University of Sydney).
Curiously, both Drs Snelling use the same address (PO Box 302, Sunnybank, Qld, 4109), which they share with an organisation called the Creation Science Foundation (CSF), the coordinating centre for fundamentalist creationism in Australia.​
But the really strange thing about this is that the views of these two Drs Snelling, on matters such as the age of the earth and its geological strata, are diametrically opposed. This article, the result of my extensive searches through the literature, highlights this remarkable coincidence and poses some serious questions of credibility for the Creation Science Foundation and for either or both of the Drs Andrew A Snelling.​
For convenience I refer to them below as follows:​
(a) Dr A A Snelling 1 - creationist geologist, a director of CSF and regular contributor to, and sometime editor of, the CSF's quarterly magazine, Ex Nihilo (now CREATION ex nihilo).​
(b) Dr A A Snelling 2 - consulting geologist who works on uranium mineralisation and publishes in refereed scientific journals.​
Snelling 1 seldom, if ever, cites articles written by Snelling 2 and Snelling 2 never cites articles written by Snelling 1.​
Snelling 1
For the past ten years Dr Andrew Snelling BSc, PhD, the CSF's geological spokesman, has been the only prominent Australian creationist with geological qualifications. His credentials are not in question here, only his influence on science education in Australia.​
Snelling 1 writes articles for creationist journals and lectures throughout the country in schools, public meetings and churches. Although his geological credentials are usually highlighted in creationist publications it would be more accurate to describe Snelling 1 as a Protestant evangelist, not as a geologist. Some CSF literature openly refers to him as a 'missionary'.​
Why should Snelling 1's activities concern the scientific and educational communities? To appreciate this, one needs to analyse his published articles to see how geological data and discoveries are misused and reinterpreted from a Biblical perspective.​
CSF members subscribe to a lengthy, very specific Statement of Faith. Apart from purely religious clauses, not relevant here, several clauses carry serious implications for those in scientific and educational circles, especially for those in the Earth (and other historical) sciences. As the extracts below reveal, to a dedicated creationist, scientific evidence is always subservient to Biblical authority.​
"(A) PRIORITIES
1. The scientific aspects of creation are important but are secondary in importance to the proclamation of the gospel of Jesus Christ as Sovereign, Creator and Redeemer.
(B) BASICS
3. The account of origins presented in Genesis is a simple but factual presentation of actual events and therefore provides a reliable framework for scientific research into the question of the origin and history of life.
5. The great flood of Genesis was an actual historical event, worldwide in its extent and effect.
(D) GENERAL
The following attitudes are held by members of the Board to be either consistent with Scripture or implied by Scripture
(i) The scripture teaches a recent origin for man and for the whole creation.
(ii) The days in Genesis do not correspond to Geological ages, but are six
(6) consecutive twenty-four (24) hour days of creation.
(iii) The Noachian flood was a significant geological event and much (but not all) fossiliferous sediment originated at that time.
(iv) The chronology of secular world history must conform to that of Biblical world history."
These statements reveal 'creation science' to be an oxymoron, a contradiction in terms, based on religious dogma (and a simple minded dogma at that). Despite its name, 'creation science' has little to do with real science and, in fact, represents the antithesis of science.​
Everything in his creationist writings and activities indicates that Snelling 1 subscribes fully to CSF's Statement of Faith. Where this clashes with scientific evidence, the latter is always secondary to the former and his message, although often cloaked in scientific jargon, is simple and unequivocal; indeed one of his favourite lecture topics is "Why, as a Geologist, I Believe in Noah's Flood".​
From the Gospel according to Snelling 1, the Earth is geologically young, created ex nihilo ("from nothing") by a supernatural being, during a short, well defined construction period of only six days. This miraculous creation event, usually dated some 6000 years ago (around 4004 BC), is not the end of the story. The Earth we live on today is not the same as the original created model, which was almost totally destroyed and remodelled some 1,600 years later (around 2345 BC) by an irate Creator who conjured up an unique, world-wide Flood to do the job.​
This Flood, lasting just over one year, tore down all previous land surfaces, rearranged the continents and thrust up all existing mountain chains. It also destroyed all pre-existing life forms, plant and animal - except for a chosen few saved on Noah's Ark. Thus all of the remarkably complex geology of the present day Earth's crust formed during the one year of Noah's Flood and all the innumerable fossil remains of former animals and plants were all buried and preserved by the same Flood.​
Snelling 1 (1983a) presented his views on Flood chronology in an article, Creationist Geology: The Precambrian. After reviewing mainstream views on geology and evolution, he remarked:​
"On the other hand, creationists interpret the majority of the fossiliferous sedimentary rocks of the Earth's crust as testimony to Noah's flood....Creationists do this because they regard the Genesis record as implying that there was no rain before Noah's flood, therefore no major erosion, and hence no significant sedimentation or fossilisation."

"However the flood was global, erosional and its purpose was destruction. Therefore the first major fossilisation commenced at this time, and the majority of the fossils are regarded as having been formed rapidly during this event. Creationists therefore regard sedimentary strata as needing to be classified into those formed during the time of creation week, pre-flood, flood (early, middle and late), post-flood and recent" (p. 42)
Snelling 1 then quoted one J C Dillow, a creationist writing on the Earth's supposed pre-Flood "vapour canopy":
"It should be obvious that if the Earth is only 6000 years old, then all the geological designations are meaningless within that framework, and it is deceptive to continue to use them. If, as many creationist geologists believe, the majority of the geological column represents flood sediments and post-flood geophysical activity, then the mammoth, dinosaur and all humans existed simultaneously .... Some limited attempts have been made by creationist geologists to reclassify the entire geological column within this framework, but the task is immense." (Dillow 1981, "The Waters Above". Moody Press, 405-6)
Snelling 1 criticised Dillow and other creationists for restricting Flood strata to Phanerozoic rocks (Cambrian and younger) and claimed that most Precambrian rocks are also Flood deposits:
"It is my contention that those who do this have failed to study carefully the evidence for the flood deposition of many Precambrian strata and have therefore unwittingly fallen into the trap of lumping together the Precambrian strata to the creation week. The usual reason for doing this is that the evolutionists regard Precambrian as so different, so devoid of life in comparison with other rocks, that creationists have simply borrowed their description." (1983, 42).
Snelling 1 thus pushes the earliest limits of Flood strata far back into the Early Precambrian (early Archaean) times , before even the first appearance of fossils resembling blue-green algae:
"What I am contending here is that fossils, whether they be microscopic or macroscopic, plant or animal and the fossil counterpart of organic matter, along with its metamorphosed equivalent graphite, are the primary evidence which should distinguish flood rocks from pre-flood rocks, regardless of the evolutionary 'age'." (1983, 45).
Lest there remain any doubt, Snelling 1 (1983, 42) stated:
"For creationists to be consistent the implications are clear; Precambrian sediments containing fossils and organic remains were laid down during Noah's flood. Creationist geologists need to completely abandon the evolutionist's geological column and associated terminology. It is necessary to start again, using the presence of fossils or organic matter as a classification criterion in the task of rebuilding our understanding of geological history within the Biblical framework."

It is difficult to believe that the writer of the foregoing article has a BSc (Hons) and PhD in geology! However an examination of other articles by the same author in Ex Nihilo reveals that, to Snelling 1, everything geological (Ayers Rock, Mt Isa ore deposits, Bass Strait oil and gas, Queensland coal deposits, Great Barrier Reef, etc.,) can be explained as the result of Noah's year-long Flood.​
exphorsa.gif
DOOLAN, ROBERT & ANDREW A SNELLING, 1987. Limestone caves ...a result of Noah's Flood? Limestone caves... a result of Noah's Flood?(4), 10-13.
READ, PETER & ANDREW A SNELLING, 1985. How Old is Australia's Great Barrier Reef? Creation Ex Nihilo. 8(1), 6-9.
SNELLING, ANDREW A 1982. The Recent Origin of Bass Strait Oil and Gas. Ex Nihilo 5 (2) 43-46.
SNELLING, ANDREW A 1983. Creationist Geology: The Precambrian. Ex Nihilo 6 (1), 42-46.
SNELLING, ANDREW A 1983. What about Continental Drift? Have the continents really moved apart? Ex Nihilo 6 (2), 14-16.
SNELLING, ANDREW A 1984. The recent, rapid formation of the Mt Isa orebodies during Noah's Flood. Ex Nihilo 6 (3) 40-46 (cf. also abstract 17-18).
SNELLING, ANDREW A 1984. The Origin of Ayers Rock. Creation Ex Nihilo 7 (1).
SNELLING, ANDREW A 1986. Coal Beds and Noah's Flood. Creation Ex Nihilo 8 (3), 20-21.
SNELLING, ANDREW A 1989. Is the Sun Shrinking? Creation Ex Nihilo (pt. 1) 11 (1), 14-19. (pt. 2) 11 (2), 30-34. - The Debate Continues. (pt. 3) 11 (3), 40-43 - The Unresolved Question.
SNELLING, ANDREW A & John Mackay 1984. Coal, Volcanism and Noah's Flood. Ex Nihilo Tech. J. 1, 11-29.
 
Continued:

SNELLING 2

If we now turn to the scientific articles published by the other Dr A A Snelling, consulting geologist (also from PO Box 302, Sunnybank QLD, 4109), we find a remarkable contrast, both in approach and content. None of them mention the Creation or Creation Week, Flood geology or the need to revamp the classic geological timescale.
The latest paper by Snelling 2 (1990, 807 -812) is a detailed technical account of the "Koongarra Uranium Deposits" in the Northern Territory. It appears in an authoritative two volume work on "Geology of the Mineral Deposits of Australia and Papua New Guinea" (ed. F E Hughes), published by the Australasian Institute of Mining and Metallurgy, Melbourne. The references list eight earlier papers by Snelling 2 in refereed journals (or symposium volumes) on aspects of uranium mineralisation; three as sole author and five as junior co-author.
In discussing the regional geology (p. 807) and age (p. 811) of the Koongarra uranium deposits, Snelling 2 describes their geological history in fairly technical terms, however, to avoid the charge we lay against the creationists, of taking quotations out of context, I will quote Snelling 2 verbatim from the paper (p. 807):
"The Archaean basement consists of domes of granitoids and granitic gneisses (the Nanambu Complex), the nearest outcrop being 5 km to the north. Some of the lowermost overlying Proterozoic metasediments were accreted to these domes during amphibolite grade regional metamorphism (5 to 8 kb and 550° to 630° C) at 1870 to 1800 Myr. Multiple isoclinal recumbent folding accompanied metamorphism."
For the benefit of lay readers, this statement is summarised and simplified here:
"The oldest rocks in the Koongarra area, domes of granitoids and granitic gneiss, are of Archaean age (ie to geologists this means they are older than 2500 million years). The Archaean rocks are mantled by Lower Proterozoic (younger than 2500 million years) metasediments: all were later buried deeply, heavily folded and, between 1870 and 1800 million years ago, were subjected to regional metamorphism at considerable temperatures and pressures."

There is no question here of "abandoning the geological column and its associated terminology", and the term Myr refers unequivocally to millions of years.
One further quotation (p.807), "A 150 Myr period of weathering and erosion followed metamorphism.", is self explanatory.
There are several further references to ages of millions and thousands of millions of years, and to commonly accepted geological terminology, throughout the paper but, to spare the lay reader, I will only summarise them here:
1. During Early Proterozoic times (from 1688-1600 million years ago) the area was covered by thick, flat-lying sandstones.
2. At some later date (but after the reverse faulting) the Koongarra uranium mineral deposit forms, perhaps in several stages, first between 1650-1550 million years ago, and later around 870 and 420 million years.
3. The last stage, the weathering of the primary ore to produce the secondary dispersion fan above the No 1 orebody seems to have begun only in the last 1-3 million years.
Nowhere in this, or in any other article by Snelling 2 is there any reference to the creation week, to Noah's Flood or to a young age for the Earth. Nor is there any disclaimer, or the slightest hint, that this Dr Snelling has any reservations about using the standard geological column or time scale, accepted world-wide. The references above to hundreds and thousands of million of years are not interpolated by me. They appear in Dr Snelling 2's paper.
The problem is obvious - the two Drs A A Snelling BSc (Hons), PhD (with the same address as the Creation Science Foundation) publish articles in separate journals and never cite each other's papers. Their views on earth history are diametrically opposed and quite incompatible.
One Dr Snelling is a young-earth creationist missionary who follows the CSF's Statement of Faith to the letter. The other Dr Snelling writes scientific articles on rocks at least hundreds or thousand of millions of years old and openly contradicting the Statement of Faith. The CSF clearly has a credibility problem. Are they aware they have an apostate in their midst and have they informed their members?
Of course there may well be a simple explanation, eg that the two Drs Snelling are one and the same. Perhaps the Board of the CSF has given Andrew Snelling a special dispensation to break his Statement of Faith. Why would they do this? Well, every creation 'scientist' needs to gain scientific credibility by publishing papers in refereed scientific journals and books and the sort of nonsense Dr Snelling publishes in Creation Ex Nihilo is unlikely to be accepted in any credible scientific journal.
I think that both Dr Snelling and the CSF owe us all an explanation. WILL THE REAL DR ANDREW SNELLING PLEASE STAND UP?
exphorsa.gif

POSTSCRIPT

Several years ago, in the Sydney Morning Herald, as one geologist to another, I publicly challenged Dr Snelling (the young-earth creationist version) to a public debate, before our geological peers, on a subject close to his heart - Noah's Flood - The Geological Case For and Against.
I've repeated the challenge several times since then and it still stands.
For reasons best known only to himself, Dr Snelling has declined to defend the creationist cause.
In the light of the above I suggest the reason is obvious. In his heart, and as a trained geologist, he knows that the young-earth model is a load of old codswallop and is totally indefensible.
 
Here's one of many articles describing the flaws and problems of so called "creation science" as a whole. It quite rightly points out that as soon as you posit "God did it" you are no longer doing anything that can be classed as science. Creationism is pure pseudoscience and only someone like starrise who fervently believes in it would argue that point.

My Favorite Pseudoscience

Reports of the National Center for Science Education
Title:
My Favorite Pseudoscience
Author(s):
Eugenie C. Scott
NCSE Executive Director
Volume:
23
Issue:
1
Year:
2003
Date:
January–February
This version might differ slightly from the print publication.
Paul Kurtz’s letter inviting me to write this article suggested that I describe “my own personal involvement” in the skeptical movement. My introduction to skepticism was a fascination with a particular pseudoscience, “creation science”. From the day I first heard this phrase, I was hooked.

In 1971, I was a graduate student in physical anthropology at the University of Missouri. One day, my professor, Jim Gavan, handed me a stack of small, brightly colored, slick paper pamphlets from the Institute for Creation Research. “Here”, he said, “Take a look at these. It’s called ‘creation science.’”

Wow. Here I was studying to be a scientist, and here were people calling themselves scientists, but we sure were not seeing the world the same way. They were looking at the same data: the same fossils, the same stratigraphy, the same biological principles, and so on. But from these data, creationists were concluding that all living things had appeared in their present form, at one time, a few thousand years ago. I was concluding that living things had branched off from common ancestors over scarcely imaginable stretches of time. They were concluding that the entire planet had been covered by water, and that all the present-day geological features of earth had been determined by this flood and its aftermath. I could not see any evidence for this at all, and much evidence against it. Why were we coming up with such different conclusions? The data were not all that different, but the philosophy of science and the approach to problem solving sure were.

I began collecting “creation science” literature as an academic enterprise: an interesting problem in the philosophy of science and critical thinking. Due to the pressures of graduate school and my first teaching job, I was not able to pursue it especially deeply, but students would occasionally bring up the topic. I would tell them that even if proponents of “creation science” claimed they were doing science, one cannot claim that one is doing science if one is doing something very different from what scientists are doing. “Creation science” was a good foil to use in teaching students about the nature of science.

Philosophers of science can — and do — argue incessantly over the definition of science. I do not know how many academic papers have been written attempting to solve the “demarcation problem”: what qualifies as science and what does not. Some partisans even go so far as to claim that science is impossible to define. I confess to having little tolerance for such “how many angels can dance on the head of a pin” type discussions. In my present job as executive director of the National Center for Science Education, I regularly encounter the public’s misunderstanding of the most basic elements of science. I deal with people who nod in agreement with a typical creationist statement that “neither evolution nor creationism is scientific because no one was there to observe it”. I deal with people who agree with creation scientists stating that “evolution is not scientific because evolutionists are always changing their minds”. A very popular view is that we should “give the kids all the options” in a science classroom, and teach them both data demonstrating that evolution took place and “the evidence” for the “alternate theory” that God created everything at one time in its present form — two mutually exclusive views.

Against such a background, the philosopher’s discussion of the nuances of the demarcation problem become an intellectual luxury far removed from what people need to hear. Doubtless to the frustration of my colleagues in the philosophy of science, my job requires me to simplify — probably far beyond what they consider acceptable. But in doing so, I can make a little progress in helping the public to understand why science works, and also why “creation science” is not science. Maybe down the road the nonscientists I encounter can tackle falsificationism and the demarcation problem; right now, I would be happy if they understood two basic rules of science that I believe the majority of scientists would agree upon — however much they might disagree on others. And — more importantly for this discussion — “creation science” can be rejected as science based even on this simplest of understandings of what science is.

The nature of science
There are two basic principles of science that creationism violates. First, science is an attempt to explain the natural world in terms of natural processes, not supernatural ones. This principle is sometimes referred to as methodological naturalism. In time, a consensus of how some aspect of nature works or came about is arrived at through testing alternate explanations against the natural world. Through this process, the potential exists to arrive at a truly objective understanding of how the world works.

Please allow a digression here. I am not presenting a cut-and-dried formula — “the scientific method” — as if the process of science were a lockstep algorithm. It is much untidier than that. Of course science reflects the time and culture in which it is found. Of course scientists, being human, have biases and make mistakes. Yet the growth of knowledge in a field is not the result of individual achievement, but rather is a function of a number of minds working on the same and different problems over time. It is a collective process, rather than the result of actions of a solitary genius. Individual scientists may be biased, closed-minded, and wrong, but science as a whole lurches forward in spite of it all thanks to its built-in checks.

An important check is that explanations must be tested against the natural world. Thus there is an external standard against which a scientist’s views are measured, regardless of his biases or the biases of his opponents. Unpopular ideas may take longer to be accepted, and popular ideas may take longer to be rejected, but the bottom line determining acceptance or rejection is whether the ideas work to describe, predict, or explain the natural world. The Soviet geneticist Lysenko foisted a “Lamarckian” (inheritance of acquired characteristics) theory of heredity upon the Soviet scientific establishment because Lamarckian genetics was more politically compatible with Marxism than Mendelian genetics. His politically biased science set Soviet genetics back a full generation, but today Russians employ Mendelian genetics. Wheat raised in refrigerators does not grow any better in Siberia than regular wheat, and after a series of 5-year plans gone bust, eventually the Soviet government figured out that Lysenko had to go. “Mendelism” works; “Lysenkoism” does not.

Science is nothing if not practical. The explanations that are retained are those that work best, and the explanations that work best are ones based on material causes. Nonmaterial causes are disallowed.

The second minimal principle of science is that explanations (which is what theories are) are tentative, and may change with new data or new theory. Now, do not misunderstand me: I am not claiming that all scientific explanations always change, because in fact some do not. Nonetheless, scientists must be willing to revise explanations in light of new data or new theory. The core ideas of science tend not to change very much — they might get tinkered with around the edges — whereas the frontier ideas of science may change a lot before we feel we understand them well.

Here then are two critical strictures on modern science: science must explain using natural causes, and scientists must be willing to change their explanations when they are refuted. Viewed in the light of these two basic tenets of science, “creation science” fails miserably.

Explaining through natural cause
When a creationist says, “God did it”, we can confidently say that he is not doing science. Scientists do not allow explanations that include supernatural or mystical powers for a very important reason. To explain something scientifically requires that we test explanations against the natural world. A common denominator for testing a scientific idea is to hold constant (“control”) at least some of the variables influencing what you are trying to explain. Testing can take many forms, and although the most familiar test is the direct experiment, there exist many research designs involving indirect experimentation, or natural or statistical control of variables.

Science’s concern for testing and control rules out supernatural causation. Supporters of the “God did it” argument hold that God is omnipotent. If there are omnipotent forces in the universe, by definition, it is impossible to hold their influences constant; one cannot “control” such powers. Lacking the possibility of control of supernatural forces, scientists forgo them in explanation. Only natural explanations are used. No one yet has invented a theometer, so we will just have to muddle along with material explanations.

Another reason for restricting ourselves to natural explanations is practical. It works. We have gone a long way towards building more complete and, we think better, explanations through methodological naturalism, and most of us feel that if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. Also, being able to say, “God (directly) did it” is a “science stopper”, in the words of philosopher Alvin Plantinga (2001). To say “God did it” means one does not need to look further for a natural explanation. For example, creationist literature abounds with criticisms of origin-of-life research. Because scientists have not yet reached a consensus on how the first replicating molecule came about, creationists argue, this is an intractable problem that should just be attributed to “God did it”. Well, if we stop looking for a natural explanation for the origin of life, surely we will never find it. So even if we have not found it yet, we must nonetheless slog on.

“Creation science”, for all its surface attempts (especially in its presentation to the general public) to claim to abide by a strictly scientific approach, relying solely on empirical data and theory, eventually falls back to violating this cardinal rule of methodological naturalism. Sometimes one has to go a bit deep in an argument, but eventually, as in the well-known Sidney Harris cartoon, “then a miracle occurs”.

For example, to a creation scientist holding to Flood Geology, Noah’s Flood was an actual historical event, and representatives of all land animals plus Noah, his wife, their sons, and their sons’ wives were on a large boat. Q: All land animals? A: Sure. The Ark is the size of the Queen Mary. Q: But there are thousands of species of beetles alone! How could all land animals be on the Ark? A: Oh, Noah did not take two of every species. He took pairs of each kind, and kinds are higher taxonomic levels than species. Q: But how could only 8 people take care of a Queen Mary-sized boat full of animals? How could they feed, water, and clean out the stalls? A: They did not have that much work, because the rocking movement of the boat caused most of the animals to estivate, or go dormant, obviating the need for feeding, watering, and stall-cleaning. Q: But the Ark floated around for almost a year before landing! Small mammals, such as mice and shrews, have a high surface–area: body–mass ratio, and have to eat almost their weight in food each day just to keep their metabolism up. These animals could not have survived estivation. A: Well, then, a miracle occurred.

Push a creationist argument far enough, and sure enough, it will become necessary to resort to a miracle. But miracle-mongering cannot be part of science.

In addition to the familiar “creation science” that got me interested in this particular pseudoscience, in the last ten years or so a newer form of anti-evolutionism has made its appearance: “Intelligent Design” (ID) creationism. ID harks back to the 1802 position of clergyman William Paley that structural complexity (such as the vertebrate eye for Paley or the structure of DNA for his latter-day bedfellows) is too complicated to have come about through a natural process. Therefore it must have been designed by an “intelligence”. The “intelligence” of course is God, and attributing natural causality to a supernatural power of course violates methodological naturalism. Recognizing that methodological naturalism is the standard of modern science, ID proponents argue that it should be scuttled, and replaced with what they call “theistic science”, which possesses the enviable ability to invoke the occasional miracle when circumstances seem to require it (Scott 1998). ID proponents are content to allow methodological naturalism for the vast amount of science that is done; they wish to leave the possibility of supernatural intervention only for those scientific problems that have theological implications, such as the Big Bang, the origin of life, the appearance of “kinds” of animals (the Cambrian Explosion), and the origin of humans. The strength of methodological naturalism is perhaps best illustrated by its general acceptance by both the ID and “creation science” wings of the anti-evolution movement — except when it comes to religiously sensitive topics.

The importance of changing your mind
So creationists violate the first cardinal rule of science, the rule of methodological naturalism, but they also violate the second cardinal rule — that of being willing to change or reject one’s explanation based on good evidence to the contrary. This is most clearly revealed by the creationist treatment of empirical data. Now, the problem is not that creationists sift through the scientific literature to find data that support the creation “model”; that in itself is not out of line. Scientists do seek confirming data (in the real world, as well as in the literature). But creationists ignore evidence that disconfirms their view, because they are not willing to change their explanations in the light of new data or theory.

Judges are not famous for their scientific acuity (witness Justice Scalia’s dissent in the 1987 Supreme Court’s Edwards v Aguillard case), but one judge got it remarkably right. William Overton, in the decision in McLean v Arkansas, wrote,
The creationists’ methods do not take data, weigh it against the opposing scientific data, and thereafter reach the conclusions stated in section 4(a).
Instead, they take the Book of Genesis and attempt to find scientific support for it.
While anybody is free to approach a scientific inquiry in any fashion they choose, they cannot properly describe the methodology used as scientific, if they start with a conclusion and refuse to change it regardless of the evidence developed during the course of the investigation.
A theory that is by its own terms dogmatic, absolutist and never subject to revision is not a scientific theory.​
For decades now, creationists have claimed that the amount of meteoritic dust on the moon disproves evolution. The argument goes like this: Based on scientific measurements, the amount of meteoritic dust falling on the earth is X tons per year; a proportionate amount must also fall on the moon. If the earth and moon were ancient as evolutionists claim, then the amount of dust on the moon would be several hundreds of feet thick, since in the scant atmosphere of the moon, the dust would not burn up as it does on the earth. When astronauts landed on the moon, they found only a few inches of dust, proving that the moon is young, so the earth is young, so there is not enough time for evolution, so evolution did not happen and therefore God created the earth, moon, and everything else in the universe 10 000 years ago.

Decades ago, creationists were told that the data they use for the amount of dust falling on the earth was inaccurate. More accurate measurements of the amount of meteoritic dust influx to the earth are degrees of magnitude smaller than the original estimates cited by creationists. Before astronauts landed on the moon, satellites had accurately measured the amount of dust occurring in space, and NASA predicted that the surface of the moon would be covered by no more than a few inches of dust — exactly what astronauts found. Even though this information has been available for decades, and evolutionists time and again have pointed out flaws in the creationist argument, the dust on the moon argument still is touted as “evidence against evolution”. If this were a normal scientific theory, it would have been abandoned and forgotten long ago, an empirical stake in its heart, but this creationist zombie keeps rising again and again.

It is hard to argue that one is doing science when one can never bring oneself to abandon a refuted argument, and “creation science” is littered with such rejects. More modern forms of creationism such as “intelligent design theory” have not been around as long, and have not built up quite as long a list of refuted claims, but things do not look very good for them at this point. Michael Behe (1996) has proposed the idea that certain biochemical functions or structures are “irreducibly complex”: because all components must be present and functioning, such structures could not have come about through the incremental process of natural selection. The examples he uses in his book Darwin’s Black Box, such as the bacterial flagellum and the blood-clotting cascade, appear not to be irreducibly complex after all. Worse, even granting the theoretical possibility that an irreducibly complex structure could exist, there is no reason it could not be produced by natural selection. A (theoretically) irreducibly complex structure would not have to have all of its components assembled in its present form all at one time. The way natural selection works, it is perfectly reasonable to envision that some parts of such a structure could be assembled for one purpose, other parts for another, and the final “assembly” results in a structure that performs a function different from any of the “ancestral” functions. As complex a biochemical sequence as the Krebs cycle has recently been given an evolutionary explanation of this sort (Melandez-Hevia and others 1996).

I am willing to give “intelligent design” (ID) a little more time to demonstrate that it is, as it aspires to be, a truly scientific movement. To be able legitimately to claim that ID is scientific, however, will require that its proponents be willing to abandon ideas in the light of refuting evidence — something that their ideological ancestors, the “creation scientists”, have been unable to demonstrate, and which we have seen precious little of from the leaders of the ID movement.

Continued...
 
Continued...

Logical problems
Needless to say, in addition to violating the two key principles of science, the “science” of creationism demonstrates other weaknesses, not the least important is its logic. “Creation scientists” posit a false dichotomy of only two logical possibilities: one being special creationism as seen in a literal interpretation of Genesis, and the other being evolution. Therefore, if evolution is disproved, then creationism is proved; arguments against evolution are arguments for creationism. “Creation science” literature is largely composed of a careful sifting of legitimate scientific articles and books for anomalies that appear to “disprove” evolution.

But of course, to disprove one view is not to prove another; if I am not at home in Berkeley, that does not mean I am on the moon. Accepting the “if not A, then B” form of argument requires that there are only two possibilities. If the only two possibilities are that I am in Berkeley or on the moon, then indeed, evidence that I am not in Berkeley is evidence that I am on the moon, but clearly there are more than two alternatives as to my whereabouts. Similarly, there clearly are far more alternatives to scientific evolution than biblical creationism. There are several Hopi origin stories, several Navajo ones, scores of other Native American views, several dozen sub-Saharan African tribal explanations, and we have not even looked at South Asia, Polynesia, Australia, or views no longer held such as those of the ancient Norse and ancient Greeks. Even if evolution were disproved, biblical literalists would have to find ways of disproving all of these other religious views, so the logic fails.

More than an academic exercise
For many years, then, my interest in creationism was largely academic. It was an interesting exercise in the philosophy of science. But a few years after I left Missouri, my professor Jim Gavan unwisely accepted an invitation to debate the ICR’s Duane Gish. Gish had perfected a hugely effective technique for persuading the public that evolution was shaky science, and that folks should really consider his “scientific alternative”. I and some of my Kentucky students drove from Lexington to Missouri to attend the debate, and it was an eye-opener. I counted 13 buses from local church groups parked outside the big University of Missouri auditorium, and after seeing the enthusiasm with which the audience received Gish and his message, the cold water of the social and political reality of this movement hit me for the first time. It was no longer just an academic exercise. People were taking this pseudoscience very seriously.

The late Jim Gavan was an excellent scientist, a former president of the American Association of Physical Anthropology, a smart and articulate man well-grounded in philosophy of science. He had done his homework: he had studied creationist literature for several months and came as prepared as anyone could be expected to be. Clearly, his scientific arguments were superior, but from the perspective of who won the hearts and minds of the people, Gish mopped him up.

So I realized that there was a heck of a lot more in this creationism and evolution business than just the academic issues. I went back to Lexington and my job of teaching evolution to college students with a new appreciation of a growing movement that had as its goal the undermining of my professional discipline, to say nothing of the scientific point of view. But still — there were pressures to publish, and a high teaching load, and I was still learning my job, so I did not take an active role in the controversy quite yet.

Then in 1976, I went to the University of Kansas in Lawrence, as a visiting professor. As I walked across campus one day, I saw a poster advertising a debate between two professors, Edward Wiley and Pat Bickford with Duane Gish and Henry Morris from the ICR. My first thought was, Do these guys know what they are getting in for? I jotted down the names of the professors and called up Ed Wiley. I told him that I had a collection of creationist materials that I was happy to make available to him, and offered to discuss the upcoming debate with him some time. We met and shared resources, and because of Ed’s strategy I began to think that maybe this debate would be different.

Gish’s usual stock in trade was to attack Darwinian gradualism because virtually all of his evolutionist opponents defended it. Ed Wiley had recently arrived from the American Museum of Natural History, where he had been converted to some new approaches to evolutionary biology that Gish had not heard of yet. Whereas Gish anticipated that his opponent would defend Darwinian gradualism, Ed merely sniffed that Dr Gish had not kept up on the latest scholarship and went on to explain punctuated equilibria and cladistics. Worse for Gish, not only did Wiley ignore Darwinian gradualism, he almost ignored evolution completely, concentrating instead on attacking “creation science” as being a nonscience, and as being empirically false.

This debate was a disaster for the creationism side. Gish did not know what to say: his target had disappeared, and he was faced with new information with which he was totally unfamiliar (needless to say, by his next debate, he had figured out a “refutation” of punctuated equilibria, and no other evolutionist opponent would ever catch him unprepared on this topic). It was pleasant to behold, especially after having seen my mentor and friend Jim Gavan skunked by Gish a couple of years before.

But the most memorable moment in the debate did not have anything to do with science. Geologist Pat Bickford was paired with the avuncular founder of creation science, Henry M Morris, and did a good job showing the scientific flaws of Morris’s “flood geology model” (according to which all the world’s important geological features were formed by Noah’s Flood), although I do not know how many in the audience understood much of his technical presentation. As with the Gavan/Gish debate, the audience was dominated by people who had arrived on buses from regional churches, and they were there to cheer their champions Gish and Morris. I was sitting behind a young girl of 11 or so and her mother.

Bickford began his presentation by pointing out that he was an active churchgoer, had been one for many years, and found this not at all incompatible with his acceptance of evolution. The girl in front of me whirled to face her mother and said, “But you told me —” and her mother, equally shocked and intent on hearing more, said, “Shhhhhhhh!” They had come to the debate convinced that one had to choose between evolution and religion. Bickford’s testimonial exposed them to empirical evidence that this was not true. I suspect that they wondered what else they had been told that was not true. I noticed that they listened to Bickford far more intently than they had listened to Wiley and left with a thoughtful look in their eyes.

But my true baptism into realizing the depth and extent of the social and political importance of the “creation science” movement came in 1980 in Lexington, Kentucky, when the “Citizens for Balanced Teaching of Origins” approached the Lexington school board to request that “creation science” be introduced into the curriculum. Because I had a collection of creationist literature collected over the years, I became a focal point for the opposition to this effort. After over a year of controversy, our coalition of scientists and liberal and moderate clergy (who objected to biblical literalism being presented in the public schools) managed to persuade the Lexington Board of Education to reject the proposal — by a scant 3–2 margin.

Creationism and Pseudoscience
What happened in Lexington has happened in community after community across the United States, although the evolution side has not always prevailed. I learned from the Lexington controversy (and from observing creation/evolution debates) that “creation science” is not a problem that will be solved merely by throwing science at it. And I suspect that this is generally also the case with other pseudosciences. Like other pseudosciences, “creation science” seeks support and adherents by claiming the mantle of science. Proponents argue that “creation science” should be taught in science class because it supposedly is a legitimate science. This point must be refuted, and scientists are the best ones to make the point. But showing that creationism is unscientific (and just plain factually wrong) is insufficient, however necessary. People who support “creation science” do so for emotional reasons, and are reluctant or unwilling to relinquish their belief unless those needs or concerns are otherwise assuaged. I suspect the same thing can be said for believers in UFOs, or out-of-body experiences, or paranormal phenomena in general: these beliefs are meeting some emotional needs, and consequently will be very difficult to abandon.

In the case of creation science, the needs being met are among those associated with religion, which makes the adherence to creationism particularly difficult to give up. Creationism is most closely associated with a particular theology of special creationism; not all religion is inimical to evolution, as demonstrated both by scientists who are religious and religious non-scientists who accept evolution. But if your theology requires you to interpret your sacred documents in a literal fashion (whether the Bible, the Torah, the Koran, or the Vedas), in most cases, evolution will be difficult to accommodate with faith.

Some anti-evolutionists — most of the ID supporters, for example — think that evolution is incompatible with faith not because their theology is biblically literalist, but because they believe that a God who works through evolution is too remote; their theology requires a very personal God who is actively involved with individual human lives and who therefore gives purpose and meaning to life. The God of the theistic evolutionist, the one who uses evolution to construct living things much as Newton’s God used gravitation to construct the solar system, is too distant; evolution to them is a step down the slippery slope toward deism.

But whether in the form of biblical literalism or not, religious sensibilities are the engine driving anti-evolutionism. Religion is a powerful force in human lives. If religion did not meet many human needs, it would not be a cultural universal; obviously we are dealing with many complex psychological issues. No matter how sound Jim Gavan’s science was during his debate with Gish, he failed to move most of his listeners because they came to the debate convinced that evolution was fundamentally incompatible with their religion. Pat Bickford’s casual mention that he was a churchgoer was critical to the success of the Kansas debate, because it forced audience members to grapple with a new idea: that one could be an evolutionist and also a Christian. In Lexington, scientists could point out that “creation science” was not science, but the clergy could assuage the public’s emotional concerns that by “believing” in evolution, they were giving up something important to them. Scientists alone could not have won the day. If 95 clergymen had not signed a petition stating that evolution was fine with them and that they felt that the schools should not be presenting a religious doctrine as science, community sentiment would not have allowed the board of education to make the decision it did.

Those of us concerned about pseudoscience and its attractiveness to the public would be well advised to consider the emotional needs that are met by beliefs in ESP, alien abduction, astrology, psychic powers, and the like, and address them as well as criticizing the poor science invoked by supporters to support the pseudoscience. We skeptics sometimes feel that the people we are trying to reach are impenetrable — and some of them are! The public is divided into 3 parts: confirmed believers, confirmed skeptics, and a much larger middle group that does not know much science, but does not have the emotional commitments that might lead it to embrace a pseudoscientific view. In the case of creation science, the emotional commitment (among many) is to the particular theology of biblical literalism; in the case of UFO abductees, it may be a need for a quasi-religious benevolent protector (or conversely, the fear of an omnipresent threat against which one is powerless). I have found that I am most effective with that large middle group, and hardly ever effective with the true believers; I suspect most skeptics have had similar experiences.

But after all, reaching that large middle group is also the goal of the proponents of pseudoscience. If, like most skeptics, you feel that we would all be better off with more science and less pseudoscience, then that is where we should be focusing our energies, rather than fruitlessly arguing with people who will never agree with us. But to reach that group that is potentially reachable, we must also be aware that a scientific explanation is necessary but not sufficient to change someone’s mind; if I have learned anything from over 25 years in the skeptic business, it is that it is necessary to deal with the emotional reasons that make our species susceptible to these beliefs, as well as the scientific.

[Reprinted with permission from Skeptical Odysseys: Personal Accounts by the World's Leading Paranormal Inquirers. Paul Kurtz, ed. Amherst (NY): Prometheus Books, 2001, p 245-56.]

References

Behe MJ. Darwin’s Black Box. New York: The Free Press, 1996.
Melandez-Hevia E, Waddell TG, Cascante M. The puzzle of the Krebs citric acid cycle: Assembling the pieces of chemically feasible reactions, and opportunism in the design of metabolic pathways during evolution. Journal of Molecular Evolution 1996; 43: 293–303.
Plantinga A. Methodological naturalism? In: Intelligent Design Creationism and its Critics, ed. Pennock RT. Cambridge (MA): The MIT Press, 2001. p 339–61.
Scott EC. 1998. “Science and religion”, “Christian scholarship”, and “theistic science”: Some comparisons. Reports of the National Center for Science Education 1998 Mar-Apr; 18(2): 30-2
 
And here's an article refuting your examples from the ICR, so that brings your list down to something like 3 or 4 examples that I'll tackle when I have more time...

Answers to Creationist Attacks on Carbon-14 Dating

Creation Evolution Journal
Title:
Answers to Creationist Attacks on Carbon-14 Dating
Author(s):
Christopher Gregory Weber
Volume:
3
Number:
2
Quarter:
Spring
Page(s):
23–29
Year:
1982
Radiocarbon dating can easily establish that humans have been on the earth for over twenty thousand years, at least twice as long as creationists are willing to allow. Therefore it should come as no surprise that creationists at the Institute for Creation Research (ICR) have been trying desperately to discredit this method for years. They have their work cut out for them, however, because radiocarbon (C-14) dating is one of the most reliable of all the radiometric dating methods.
This article will answer several of the most common creationist attacks on carbon-14 dating, using the question-answer format that has proved so useful to lecturers and debaters.
Question: How does carbon-14 dating work?
Answer: Cosmic rays in the upper atmosphere are constantly converting the isotope nitrogen-14 (N-14) into carbon-14 (C-14 or radiocarbon). Living organisms are constantly incorporating this C-14 into their bodies along with other carbon isotopes. When the organisms die, they stop incorporating new C-14, and the old C-14 starts to decay back into N-14 by emitting beta particles. The older an organism's remains are, the less beta radiation it emits because its C-14 is steadily dwindling at a predictable rate. So, if we measure the rate of beta decay in an organic sample, we can calculate how old the sample is. C-14 decays with a half-life of 5,730 years.
Question: Kieth and Anderson radiocarbon-dated the shell of a living freshwater mussel and obtained an age of over two thousand years. ICR creationists claim that this discredits C-14 dating. How do you reply?
Answer: It does discredit the C-14 dating of freshwater mussels, but that's about all. Kieth and Anderson show considerable evidence that the mussels acquired much of their carbon from the limestone of the waters they lived in and from some very old humus as well. Carbon from these sources is very low in C-14 because these sources are so old and have not been mixed with fresh carbon from
- page 24 -​
the air. Thus, a freshly killed mussel has far less C-14 than a freshly killed something else, which is why the C-14 dating method makes freshwater mussels seem older than they really are. When dating wood there is no such problem because wood gets its carbon straight from the air, complete with a full dose of C-14. The creationists who quote Kieth and Anderson never tell you this, however.
Question: A sample that is more than fifty thousand years old shouldn't have any measurable C-14. Coal, oil, and natural gas are supposed to be millions of years old; yet creationists say that some of them contain measurable amounts of C-14, enough to give them C-14 ages in the tens of thousands of years. How do you explain this?
Answer: Very simply. Radiocarbon dating doesn't work well on objects much older than twenty thousand years, because such objects have so little C-14 left that their beta radiation is swamped out by the background radiation of cosmic rays and potassium-40 (K-40) decay. Younger objects can easily be dated, because they still emit plenty of beta radiation, enough to be measured after the background radiation has been subtracted out of the total beta radiation. However, in either case, the background beta radiation has to be compensated for, and, in the older objects, the amount of C-14 they have left is less than the margin of error in measuring background radiation. As Hurley points out:
Without rather special developmental work, it is not generally practicable to measure ages in excess of about twenty thousand years, because the radioactivity of the carbon becomes so slight that it is difficult to get an accurate measurement above background radiation. (p. 108)​
Cosmic rays form beta radiation all the time; this is the radiation that turns N-14 to C-14 in the first place. K-40 decay also forms plenty of beta radiation. Stearns, Carroll, and Clark point out that ". . . this isotope [K-40] accounts for a large part of the normal background radiation that can be detected on the earth's surface" (p. 84). This radiation cannot be totally eliminated from the laboratory, so one could probably get a "radiocarbon" date of fifty thousand years from a pure carbon-free piece of tin. However, you now know why this fact doesn't at all invalidate radiocarbon dates of objects younger than twenty thousand years and is certainly no evidence for the notion that coals and oils might be no older than fifty thousand years.
Question: Creationists such as Cook (1966) claim that cosmic radiation is now forming C-14 in the atmosphere about one and one-third times faster than it is decaying. If we extrapolate backwards in time with the proper equations, we find that the earlier the historical period, the less C-14 the atmosphere had. If we extrapolate
- page 25 -​
as far back as ten thousand years ago, we find the atmosphere would not have had any C-14 in it at all. If they are right, this means all C-14 ages greater than two or three thousand years need to be lowered drastically and that the earth can be no older than ten thousand years. How do you reply?
Answer: Yes, Cook is right that C-14 is forming today faster than it's decaying. However, the amount of C-14 has not been rising steadily as Cook maintains; instead, it has fluctuated up and down over the past ten thousand years. How do we know this? From radiocarbon dates taken from bristlecone pines.
There are two ways of dating wood from bristlecone pines: one can count rings or one can radiocarbon-date the wood. Since the tree ring counts have reliably dated some specimens of wood all the way back to 6200 BC, one can check out the C-14 dates against the tree-ring-count dates. Admittedly, this old wood comes from trees that have been dead for hundreds of years, but you don't have to have an 8,200-year-old bristlecone pine tree alive today to validly determine that sort of date. It is easy to correlate the inner rings of a younger living tree with the outer rings of an older dead tree. The correlation is possible because, in the Southwest region of the United States, the widths of tree rings vary from year to year with the rainfall, and trees all over the Southwest have the same pattern of variations.
When experts compare the tree-ring dates with the C-14 dates, they find that radiocarbon ages before 1000 BC are really too young—not too old as Cook maintains. For example, pieces of wood that date at about 6200 BC by tree-ring counts date at only 5400 BC by regular C-14 dating and 3900 BC by Cook's creationist revision of C-14 dating (as we see in the article, "Dating, Relative and Absolute," in the Encyclopaedia Britannica). So, despite creationist claims, C-14 before three thousand years ago was decaying faster than it was being formed and C-14 dating errs on the side of making objects from before 1000 BC look too young, not too old.
Question: But don't trees sometimes produce more than one growth ring per year? Wouldn't that spoil the tree-ring count?
Answer: If anything, the tree-ring sequence suffers far more from missing rings than from double rings. This means that the tree-ring dates would be slightly too young, not too old.
Of course, some species of tree tend to produce two or more growth rings per year. But other species produce scarcely any extra rings. Most of the tree-ring sequence is based on the bristlecone pine. This tree rarely produces even a trace of an extra ring; on the contrary, a typical bristlecone pine has up to 5 percent of its rings missing. Concerning the sequence of rings derived from the bristlecone pine, Ferguson says:
- page 26 -​
In certain species of conifers, especially those at lower elevations or in southern latitudes, one season's growth increment may be composed of two or more flushes of growth, each of which may strongly resemble an annual ring. Such multiple growth rings are extremely rare in bristlecone pines, however, and they are especially infrequent at the elevation and latitude (37� 20' N) of the sites being studied. In the growth-ring analyses of approximately one thousand trees in the White Mountains, we have, in fact, found no more than three or four occurrences of even incipient multiple growth layers. (p. 840)​
In years of severe drought, a bristlecone pine may fail to grow a complete ring all the way around its perimeter; we may find the ring if we bore into the tree from one angle, but not from another. Hence at least some of the missing rings can be found. Even so, the missing rings are a far more serious problem than any double rings.
Other species of trees corroborate the work that Ferguson did with bristlecone pines. Before his work, the tree-ring sequence of the sequoias had been worked out back to 1250 BC. The archaeological ring sequence had been worked out back to 59 BC. The limber pine sequence had been worked out back to 25 BC. The radiocarbon dates and tree-ring dates of these other trees agree with those Ferguson got from the bristlecone pine. But even if he had had no other trees with which to work except the bristlecone pines, that evidence alone would have allowed him to determine the tree-ring chronology back to 6200 BC. (See Renfrew for more details.)
So, creationists who complain about double rings in their attempts to disprove C-14 dating are actually grasping at straws. If the Flood of Noah occurred around 3000 BC, as some creationists claim, then all the bristlecone pines would have to be less than five thousand years old. This would mean that eighty-two hundred years worth of tree rings had to form in five thousand years, which would mean that one-third of all the bristlecone pine rings would have to be extra rings. Creationists are forced into accepting such outlandish conclusions as these in order to jam the facts of nature into the time frame upon which their "scientific" creation model is based.
Question: Creationist Thomas G. Barnes has claimed that the earth's magnetic field is decaying exponentially with a half-life of fourteen hundred years. Not only does he consider this proof that the earth can be no older than ten thousand years but he also points out that a greater magnetic strength in the past would reduce C-14 dates. Now if the magnetic field several thousand years ago was indeed many times stronger than it is today, there would have been less cosmic radiation entering the atmosphere back then and less C-14 would have been produced. Therefore, any C-14 dates taken from objects of that time period would be too high. How do you answer him?
- page 27 -​
Answer: Like Cook, Barnes looks at only part of the evidence. What he ignores is the great body of archaeological and geological data showing that the strength of the magnetic field has been fluctuating up and down for thousands of years and that it has reversed polarity many times in the geological past. So, when Barnes extrapolates ten thousand years into the past, he concludes that the magnetic field was nineteen times stronger in 4000 BC than it is today, when, actually, it was only half as intense then as now. This means that radiocarbon ages of objects from that time period will be too young, just as we saw from the bristlecone pine evidence.
Question: But how does one know that the magnetic field has fluctuated and reversed polarity? Aren't these just excuses scientists give in order to neutralize Barnes's claims?
Answer: The evidence for fluctuations and reversals of the magnetic field is quite solid. V. Bucha, a Czech geophysicist, has used archaeological artifacts made of baked clay to determine the strength of the earth's magnetic field when they were manufactured. He found that the earth's magnetic field was 1.5 times as strong as today around 1 AD, 1.6 times as strong around 400 BC, 0.8 times as strong around 2000 BC, and only 0.5 times as strong around 4000 BC. (See Bailey, Renfrew, and Encyclopedia Britannica for details.) In other words, it rose in intensity from 0.5 times its present value in 4000 BC to a peak of 1.6 times its present value in 400 BC, and it has been slowly declining since then. Even before the bristlecone pine calibration of C-14 dating was worked out by Ferguson, Bucha predicted that this change in the magnetic field would make radiocarbon dates too young.
This idea [that the fluctuating magnetic field affects influx of cosmic rays, which in turn affects C-14 formation rates] has been taken up by the Czech geophysicist, V. Bucha, who has been able to determine, using samples of baked clay from archeological sites, what the intensity of the earth's magnetic field was at the time in question. Even before the tree-ring calibration data were available to them, he and the archeologist, Evzen Neustupny, were able to suggest how much this would affect the radiocarbon dates. (Renfrew, p. 76)​
Not only that, but his predictions were confirmed in detail:
There is a good correlation between the strength of the earth's magnetic field (as determined by Bucha) and the deviation of the atmospheric radiocarbon concentration from its normal value (as indicated by the tree-ring radiocarbon work). (Renfrew, p. 76)​
So, once we know all the magnetic data, we see that it really supports the tree-ring
- page 28 -​
calibration of C-14 dating, rather than the conclusions of Cook and Barnes.
As for the question of polarity reversals, plate tectonics can teach us much. It is a fact that new oceanic crust continually forms at the mid-oceanic ridges and spreads away from those ridges in opposite directions. When lava at the ridges hardens, it keeps a trace of the magnetism of the earth's magnetic field. Therefore, every time the magnetic field reverses itself, bands of paleomagnetism of reversed polarity show up on the ocean floor alternated with bands of normal polarity. These bands are thousands of kilometers long, they vary in width, they lie parallel, and the bands on either side of any given ridge form mirror images of each other. Thus it can be demonstrated that the magnetic field of the earth has reversed itself dozens of times throughout earth history.
Barnes, writing in 1973, ought to have known better than to quote the gropings and guesses of authors of the early sixties in an effort to debunk magnetic reversals. Before plate tectonics and continental drift became established in the mid-sixties, the known evidence for magnetic reversals was rather scanty, and geophysicists often tried to invent ingenious mechanisms with which to account for this evidence rather than believe in magnetic reversals. However, by 1973, sea floor spreading and magnetic reversals had been documented to the satisfaction of almost the entire scientific community. Yet, instead of seriously attempting to rebut them with up-to-date evidence, Barnes merely quoted the old guesses of authors who wrote before the facts were known. But, in spite of Barnes, paleomagnetism on the sea floor conclusively proves that the magnetic field of the earth oscillates in waves and even reverses itself on occasion. It has not been decaying exponentially as Barnes maintains.
Continued...
 
Continued...

Question: Does outside archaeological evidence confirm theC-14 dating method?
Answer: Yes. When we know the age of a sample through archaeology or historical sources, the C-14 method (as corrected by bristlecone pines) agrees with the age within the known margin of error. For instance, Egyptian artifacts can be dated both historically and by radiocarbon, and the results agree. At first, archaeologists used to complain that the C-14 method must be wrong, because it conflicted with well-established archaeological dates; but, as Renfrew has detailed, the archaeological dates were often based on false assumptions. One such assumption was that the megalith builders of western Europe learned the idea of megaliths from the Near-Eastern civilizations. As a result, archaeologists believed that the Western megalith-building cultures had to be younger than the Near Eastern civilizations. Many archaeologists were skeptical when Ferguson's calibration with bristlecone pines was first published, because, according to his method, radiocarbon dates of the Western megaliths showed them to be much older than their Near-Eastern counterparts. However, as Renfrew demonstrated, the similarities between these Eastern and Western cultures are so superficial that
- page 29 -​
the megalith builders of western Europe invented the idea of megaliths independently of the Near East. So, in the end, external evidence reconciles with and often confirms even controversial C-14 dates.
One of the most striking examples of different dating methods confirming each other is Stonehenge. C-14 dates show that Stonehenge was gradually built over the period from 1900 BC to 1500 BC, long before the Druids, who claimed Stonehenge as their creation, came to England. Astronomer Gerald S. Hawkins calculated with a computer what the heavens were like back in the second millennium BC, accounting for the precession of the equinoxes, and found that Stonehenge had many significant alignments with various extreme positions of the sun and moon (for example, the hellstone marked the point where the sun rose on the first day of summer). Stonehenge fits the heavens as they were almost four thousand years ago, not as they are today, thereby cross-verifying the C-14 dates.
Question: What specifically does C-14 dating show that creates problems for the creation model?
Answer: C-14 dates show that the last glaciation started to subside around twenty thousand years ago. But the young-earth creationists at ICR and elsewhere insist that, if an ice age occurred, it must have come and gone far less than ten thousand years ago, sometime after Noah's flood. Therefore, the only way creationists can hang on to their chronology is to poke all the holes they can into radiocarbon dating. However, as we have seen, it has survived their most ardent attacks.
Bibliography

Bailey, Lloyd R. 1978. Where Is Noah's Ark? Nashville, TN: Abington Press.
Barnes, Thomas G. 1973. Origin and Destiny of the Earth's Magnetic Field. San Diego: Creation-Life Publishers.
Cook, Melvin A. 1966. Prehistory and Earth Models. London: Max Parrish and Co., Ltd.
"Dating, Relative and Absolute." Encyclopaedia Britannica: Macropaedia, Vol. 5. 1974.
"Earth, Magnetic Field of." Encyclopaedia Britannica: Macropaedia, Vol. 5. 1974.
Fergusson, C. W. 1968. "Bristlecone Pine: Science and Aesthetics." Science 159:839-846.
Hawkins, Gerald S. 1965. Stonehenge Decoded. New York: Doubleday & Co.
Hurley, Patrick M. 1959. How Old Is the Earth? New York: Doubleday & Co.
Kieth, M. C., and Anderson, G. M. August 16, 1963. "Radiocarbon Dating: Fictitious
Results with Mollusk Shells." Science 141:634ff.

Kofahl, Robert E. 1977. The Handy Dandy Evolution Refuter. San Diego: Beta Books.
Morris, Henry M. (ed.) 1974. Scientific Creationism. San Diego: Creation-Life Publishers.
Renfrew, Colin. 1973. Before Civilization. New York: Alfred Knopf.
Slusher, Harold S. 1973. Critique of Radiometric Dating. San Diego: Creation-Life Publishers.
Stearns, Colin W., Carroll, Robert L., and Clark, Thomas H. 1979. Geological Evolution of North America, 3rd Edition. New York: John Wiley &
About the Author(s):
Chris Weber, one of the editors of Creation/Evolution, is a computer programmer and an amateur geologist. He has followed the creation-evolution controversy for over a decade.
Copyright 1982 by Christopher Gregory Weber
 
Here's another article refuting creationist interpretation of potassium argon dating, keep the creationist sources coming, I'll be happy to refute those all day long. All you have are what are known as PRATT's which are Points Refuted A Thousand Times. One of the many reasons that young earth creationism is such a joke to modern science.

Creation Science Rebuttals

Blind Leading the Blind: Austin, Snelling and Swenson Misinterpret Dalrymple's K-Ar Dating of Historical Volcanics


By Kevin R. Henke, Ph.D.
The following material may be freely copied and distributed as long as the author is properly acknowledged
and the material is not altered, edited or sold.
Because radiometric dating utterly refutes their biblical interpretations, young-Earth creationists (YECs) are desperate to undermine the reliability of these dating methods. As part of their efforts, YECs clearly believe that they can discredit K-Ar dating if they can show that excess argon routinely enters rocks and minerals as they form. That is, they believe that excess argon will cause rocks and minerals that are supposedly less than 10,000 years old to have 'deceptively' old K-Ar dates of millions or billions of years. In particular, YECs attempt to demonstrate that excess argon is a 'problem' for K-Ar dating by locating examples of historically erupted volcanics, which yield K-Ar dates that are hundreds of thousands or millions of years older than their eruption dates. By listing enough examplesof modern volcanics that apparently have unrealistically old K-Ar dates, YECs create the false impression that ALL K-Ar dates are spuriously old.​
YECs Dr.Steve A. Austin, Dr. Andrew A. Snelling (and also here) and MD Keith Swenson list the same set of old K-Ar 'dates' for some historical lava flows. The data were miscopied from Dalrymple (1969).​
G. Brent Dalrymple is a geochronologist with 40 years experience, a pioneer in the identification of excess argon in igneous samples, and an outspoken critic of young-Earth creationism (e.g., Dalrymple, 1984). As part of his seminal work on excess argon, Dalrymple (1969) dated 26 historical lava flows with K-Ar to determine whether excess argon was present. Of the 26 lava flows that were sampled and analyzed, 18 of them gave expected results. That is, no excess 40Ar or 36Ar were present. Eight rocks yielded unrealistic dates, which were either too old because of the presence of excess 40Ar (5 of them) or too young (negative ages) because of the presence of excess 36Ar (3 of them). The details on the 8 anomalous samples are listed in Table 2 of Dalrymple (1969, p. 51), which is reproduced at Ar-Ar Dating Assumes There is No Excess Argon? The 5 samples with excessively old K-Ar dates include a Hualalai basalt from Hawaii (K-Ar 'dates' of 1.05 and 1.19 million years; the basalt erupted in 1800-1801 AD), two Mt. Etna basalts (a 'date' of 150,000 years for a sample that erupted in 1792 AD and a K-Ar 'date' of 100,000 years for the other sample, which erupted in 122 BC), a plagioclase from Mt. Lassen, California ('dated' at 130,000 years; erupted in 1915 AD), and a basalt from Sunset Crater, Arizona ('dated' at 210,000 and 220,000 years; erupted in 1064-1065 AD).​
The author of Ar-Ar Dating Assumes There is No Excess Argon? attacks Snelling for misinterpreting Dalrymple (1969) and seriously overestimating the importance of excess argon in modern volcanics:​
'Thus while Snelling implied that Dalrymple [1969] found severe problems with K-Ar dating when the truth is quite the opposite. Dalrymple found that they are reliable. Two-thirds of the time there is no excess argon at all. And in 25 times out of 26 tests there is no excess argon or there is so little excess argon that it will make only a tiny error, if any, in the final date for rocks millions of years old. Thus Dalrymple’s data is not consistent with a young Earth whatsoever. Indeed, if Dalrymple’s data is representative, 3 times out of 26 the K-Ar method will give a too young date (though by only an extremely trivial amount for a rock that is really millions of years old). The one case that would have produced a significant error, the Hualalai flow in Hawaii, was expected (see the previous essay). Even that significant error is only 1.19 million years (and not the 1.60 million years that Snelling claimed). If the identical rock had been formed 50 million years ago, the K-Ar would give a "false" age of a little over 51 million years. Thus this data is strongly supportive of mainstream geology.' [author's emphasis]
As discussed at Ar-Ar Dating Assumes There is No Excess Argon? and Dalrymple (1969, p. 49), the ONLY sample of the 26 that had significant excess argon also had very noticeable xenoliths (older rock contaminants that were incorporated into the magma as it rose through the Earth to the surface). Furthermore, as discussed in Funkhouser and Naughton (1968, p. 4603), once the xenoliths were removed, the remaining matrix provided an expected date of 'zero years' (also see: Fresh Lava Dated as 22 Million Years Old).​
As further discussed in Dalrymple and Lanphere (1969, p. 121-144) and Dalrymple (1991, p. 91-92), Dalrymple concludes that excess argon is rare in volcanic rocks. In addition, excess argon is even less of a problem with Ar-Ar dating, where excess argon can often be distinguished from radiogenic argon and its effects eliminated (McDougall and Harrison, 1999, p. 123-130; Maluski et al., 1990).​
As originally uncovered at Ar-Ar Dating Assumes There is No Excess Argon?, Snelling failed to properly quote the 'apparent K-Ar dates' from Table 2 in Dalrymple (1969, p. 51). That is, Snelling mistakenly listed the concentrations of 40Ar (in 10 to the -12 moles/gram) for the Hualalai, Mt. Etna (2 samples), Mt. Lassen, and Sunset Crater samples as their apparent K-Ar dates!! Austin and Swenson also contain the same erroneous data. For example, Austin, Snelling and Swenson all list the 'apparent K-Ar date' for the Hualalai basalt as '1.60 million years' instead of 1.19 million years. In reality, the Hualalai basalt had 1.60 x 10 to the -12 moles/gram of 40Ar.​
Because Austin's essay is older, we can probably assume that these copying errors originated with him. Rather than checking the accuracy and relevancy of Austin's quotations from Dalrymple (1969), Snelling and Swenson simply uncritically parroted and perpetuated Austin's mistakes in their later web essays. This is truly a case of the blind leading the blind!!​
REFERENCES
Dalrymple, G.B., 1969, '40Ar/36Ar Analyses of Historic Lava Flows,' Earth Planet. Sci. Lett., v. 6, p. 47-55.​
Dalrymple, G. B., 1984, 'How Old is the Earth?: A Reply to "Scientific" Creationism,' in Proceedings of the 63rd Annual Meeting of the Pacific Division, American Association for the Advancement of Science, vol. 1, pt. 3, Frank Awbrey and William Thwaites (Eds).​
Dalrymple, G.B., 1991, The Age of the Earth, Stanford University Press, Stanford, California, USA.​
Dalrymple, G.B. and M.A. Lanphere, 1969, Potassium-Argon Dating, Freeman, San Francisco.​
Funkhouser, J.G. and J.J. Naughton, 1968, 'Radiogenic Helium and Argon in Ultramafic Inclusions from Hawaii,' J. Geophys. Res. v. 73, n.14, p. 4601-4607.​
Maluski, H., P. Monie, J.R. Kienast, and A. Rahmani, 1990, 'Location of Extraneous Argon in Granulitic-facies Minerals: A Paired Microprobe-laser probe 40Ar/39Ar Analysis,' Chem. Geol. (Isotop. Geosci. Sec.), v. 80, p. 193-217.​
McDougall, I. and T.M. Harrison, 1999, Geochronology and Thermochronology by the 40Ar/39Ar Method, Oxford University Press, New York.​
 
Nice try Starise. Excellent counterpoint Maudib. Starise, I know you say that you haven't sidestepped any issues, however I find it more than coincidental that you and I always get to a certain point and then you suddenly get busy or whatever, and when you do come back you get involved in some other issue instead of following our discussion through to it's conclusion. I'm going to try once more here by coming at it from another angle:

Let's assume that there is a God who set the universe in motion and created us. We now have the ability to see the individual building blocks God used to make everything ( including us ). Therefore we cannot escape the logic that if God had organized those building blocks in a different way, we too would be different, and we might look more like elephants or dolphins or whatever. Unless you want to dispute the existence of DNA there is overwhelming evidence for this situation. The process of arranging of the building blocks of life is the science of genetic engineering. So no matter how you look at it, if you believe a God created us, that makes God is a genetic engineer. Let's also suppose that God also has the ability to create entire universes. That means he also has the ability to assign the fundamental forces of nature to all matter and energy, and that also makes God a physicist. So assuming this highly advanced physicist/genetic engineer really exists and created all this ( including Earth and humans ), my question is: Is advanced knowledge and power alone sufficient reason to deify him? If not, what other qualities are required? For example would you deify a mad scientist, e.g. one who creates and destroys sentient life as if it were bacteria in a petri dish? Is there any evidence this God has done anything like that? Supposing there was? What makes that mad scientist worthy of your devotion and worship? Please explain.
 
Don't you think I see what you are attempting to do here? This is a straw man set up if there ever was one........... First off you attempt to discredit my evidence by making a ridiculous caracature of the other position and then attacking that caracature. In the first place you totally discredit anything I bring to the table because it might have come from a creation perspective and then using terms like " Bible thumper" etc etc. just serves to attempt to discredit anything before it even gets a fair consideration. The inference that intelligent design is the opinion of morons further aids in trying to soften up your opponent. In spite of your inferences,inuendos and outright blatent lies here we can get to the bottom of this.

There are probably a much higher percentage of highly educated scientists than you realize who are in favor of a creationist view. Farady and Pasteur to name just a few and there are plenty more in the present day, so to set things straight here, good well educated well learned men who either are or are not Christians and who either do or do not follow the creation story as it is put forth in the Bible are in favor of a scientific creationist view. The back woods red neck moron religious bible thumping in the dark ages view you are attempting to put put here won't wash and it won't hold water either.

Evidence is evidence and it can come from anywhere as long as it can be considered pertinent data. Evolution web pages, creation web pages, scientific findings of all kinds.

Have you even really looked at my postion? I have stated that none of us really knows exactly how old the earth is. I think that is an educated statement based on the known problems with Radio carbon dating in all of its forms, I never said it was totally wrong at all times. What I said was that it becomes less accurate over longer time spans and this is a fact. It is never totally accurate. If it could be proven beyond any doubt concerning creation of animal and plant life to be older than the rough number I have laid out there,then I would reconsider my position. Muadib thinks he has done that. I am not convinced of it because I don't trust the methods and the political muscle behind a lot of these conclusions.

The thing about dating with these various methods is that everything must be done under perfect conditions with a lot of knowledge about the samples, any minute contamination will skew everything and like a line drifting off 90 degrees by only .oo1 after a mile out the mistake becomes more and more apparent.

The earth has gone through lots of floods and many many other tectonic and earthquake events all down through history.

I personally don't hold to the days in creation being longer than 24 hours because the text follows each day with " and the evening and the morning" I do think that the universe itself could be much much older as I have already said. And there is the possiblity that the world was being "recreated" from another prior cycle...I have no proof for this but it is an interesting theory.

Let me attempt to clear up a few possible other misconceptions about the represented position. I did read the entire article you posted and I think that the author raises some valid points but I disagree with him on more than a few of his points. Here are some of his assumptions that are taken as factual. He assumes that all of the people who hold to Biblical belief ignore certain evidence in order to protect their position, almost like they are afraid to objectively look at all of the evidence. Now I can say that there probably are those people , but to make a blanket statement that all evangelicals or Christians in science do this is blatently untrue. This would not be true science and in some cases maybe this is happening but I can empirically state that this is yet another attempt to classify a group of scientists with an untrue statement. It can also be fairly said that a percentage of those who staunchly hold to the evolutionist view will purposely ignore any data that might lead to the creation of anything. They see it as a cardinal sin not to offer an explanation for EVERYTHING. Even the things they can't explain...so they veer from true science in this regard as well. I can't say with any certainty that ALL evolutionists would reject alternate or conflicting evidence which is what the author here has done to the creationist viewpoint.

The author also accuses the creation crowd of making a special attempt to discredit radio dating methods because it is one of the few thin straws we can hold onto in order to support our position. The accusation that we went after radio carbon dating is only half true. Others have found flaws with the process as well and to find a flaw is not to always be taken to mean that there is a concerted effort to discredit it as a whole. I appreciate the hard work and those who done it that went into coming up with a system that makes a pretty good attempt at finding ages of things within a certain time frame. I'm just not buying into the trust level we are told we can be assured of when it comes to using it. There have been too many boo boos that Muadib hasn't brought to the table. This debate can be rigged either way when it comes to Carbon radio dating . I can find people who also did professional research and came to more negative conclusions on the process, The internet is a big thing and you can pretty much find pros on either side of the debate. I see the methods as tools but not entirely reliable tools and they are most often used by people with agendas.

ERRORS ARE FEARED IN CARBON DATING - New York Times

Carbon-14 Dating Shows that the Earth is Young, by Curt Sewell

This is too long to paste here but if you want some of the other views have a look.

How accurate are Carbon-14 and other radioactive dating methods? • ChristianAnswers.Net
Is Carbon Dating Reliable? | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry

This is a response to the article written about Andrew Snelling FWIW-

- Snelling answers Ritchie -

Since I don't fully understand some of the geologic terminology I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. He certainly seems to be a man who is dedicated to what he really believes in.

Personally I am not afraid of any data whatsoever as long as it can be proven beyond any doubt in a totally objective environment.
 
Nice try Starise. Excellent counterpoint Maudib. Starise, I know you say that you haven't sidestepped any issues, however I find it more than coincidental that you and I always get to a certain point and then you suddenly get busy or whatever, and when you do come back you get involved in some other issue instead of following our discussion through to it's conclusion. I'm going to try once more here by coming at it from another angle:

Let's assume that there is a God who set the universe in motion and created us. We now have the ability to see the individual building blocks God used to make everything ( including us ). Therefore we cannot escape the logic that if God had organized those building blocks in a different way, we too would be different, and we might look more like elephants or dolphins or whatever. Unless you want to dispute the existence of DNA there is overwhelming evidence for this situation. The process of arranging of the building blocks of life is the science of genetic engineering. So no matter how you look at it, if you believe a God created us, that makes God is a genetic engineer. Let's also suppose that God also has the ability to create entire universes. That means he also has the ability to assign the fundamental forces of nature to all matter and energy, and that also makes God a physicist. So assuming this highly advanced physicist/genetic engineer really exists and created all this ( including Earth and humans ), my question is: Is advanced knowledge and power alone sufficient reason to deify him? If not, what other qualities are required? For example would you deify a mad scientist, e.g. one who creates and destroys sentient life as if it were bacteria in a petri dish? Is there any evidence this God has done anything like that? Supposing there was? What makes that mad scientist worthy of your devotion and worship? Please explain.

Very interesting take on God ufology. I'm not sure if you noticed it but some people here tend to post a lot of material for review and I sometimes let some of it slip through the cracks. I apologize if I did that with something you were talking about. I'm not evading anything really...

What makes God deserve our worship? I would not say that it is not His power alone because that would be like marrying a wife for her money or being nice to a cop because he has a gun...oversimplification to the max I agree but hopefully it gets my point across. Many people who end up in occultism go into it for the power and selfishly for themselves,unfortunately they don't realize who really has the power . The Christian God is far far different than that.

I was raised in a church where the pastor would sometimes use scare tactics to persuade people into thinking about a committment to God. I think this is wrong. Let's face it, the stakes are high. We are talking souls here. If I knew you were going to hell and I thought I could save you by scaring you into heaven I would. I would use any means necessary to save a soul from eternal damnation but I would not condone it nor do I think that the end result is really going to pay off. In your case and many others these kinds of sermons have had the reverse effect I'm guessing.

Someone here posted a pic with Jesus saying something like Love me....or burn. Now to me THAT is oversimplification to the inth degree. A whole story is missing from the middle here.

God being the creator could have made us genetically to be perfect and only do what he wanted us to do.He has chosen to make both us and the angels with the ability to reason and do our own thing contrary to His ideas for us when He made us. Certain things make us better and certain things are bad for us but we get to choose. If you drink mostly soda and eat sugar you will pay the price for that decision. If you decide to break every one of the ten commandments He gave out not only will there be implications here on earth but more in the afterlife....and we have all broken at least a few of them. If you tell your child that there is a 50 ft. sink hole around the bend but he/she decides that dad is full off crap and drives the road anyway what can dad do?

Our heavenly dad, God in this case has tried to warn, tried to plead and offered a plan but some people want a complete God vaccum. They actually want a no God condition . God is the only one who of necessity can not be any less than what He is. He must put the people who want a God vaccum in a place where they will get the result of their free choice. So where would that be? Unfortunately He is in all of the good places and the only things left are very bad places. He has wished all of mankind would take His mercy but we know that won't be the case. Some view coming into His presence like going into some kind of a confinement ,giving up something fun just like a teenager does when mom or dad really are helping the child or trying to help them.......so is a God who:

Is merciful to anyone who desires mercy.

Does His best to persuade all to go the way He has ordained for men,the way to peace and freedom.

Gives everyone the same chance or multiple chances to make the right choice.

...a bad evil God?


For some reason noone ever seems to comment much about the cruelty of the Mayans to sacrifice their unwilling children and adults. Pagan gods have always demanded some kind of a cruel sacrifice. The Christian God sent His son who WILLINGLY decided to offer Himself instead of us paying the penalty.

Now a God who would die for me I will worship. There is also every reason to worship Him for who He is,because He is just and holy. I would never give that right to any other.Worship is not a forced event or it isn't supposed to be. It should be something we want to do. When you think about it what else can you give God that He doesn't already have and what can we give Him that He can't give Himself but He deserves and likes to have?By the same token what can we take away from Him? In both cases it is ourselves.

You can decide to be your own God or worship anything else , but if there is only one God then anything else is less. Hope this isn't too preachy for you ufology...you are talking to a worship leader.
 
What makes God deserve our worship? I would not say that it is not His power alone ... Now a God who would die for me I will worship ... There is also every reason to worship Him for who He is, because He is just and holy ...

  • We agree that power alone is not worthy of worship. This is a good starting point.
  • On the issue of the God dying for you: Let's suppose that were true. Why should dying for anyone else ( no matter how many ) make a being worthy of godhood? Please explain.
  • On the issue of God being just: Justice is often defined differently from fairness and goodness. Please explain what "just" means in your intended context.
  • On God being holy as a reason: That is not a reason. It's like saying the soda has bubbles because it's fizzy. It doesn't count as an explanation.
 
Don't you think I see what you are attempting to do here? This is a straw man set up if there ever was one........... First off you attempt to discredit my evidence by making a ridiculous caracature of the other position and then attacking that caracature. In the first place you totally discredit anything I bring to the table because it might have come from a creation perspective and then using terms like " Bible thumper" etc etc. just serves to attempt to discredit anything before it even gets a fair consideration. The inference that intelligent design is the opinion of morons further aids in trying to soften up your opponent. In spite of your inferences,inuendos and outright blatent lies here we can get to the bottom of this.

There are probably a much higher percentage of highly educated scientists than you realize who are in favor of a creationist view. Farady and Pasteur to name just a few and there are plenty more in the present day, so to set things straight here, good well educated well learned men who either are or are not Christians and who either do or do not follow the creation story as it is put forth in the Bible are in favor of a scientific creationist view. The back woods red neck moron religious bible thumping in the dark ages view you are attempting to put put here won't wash and it won't hold water either.

The more you protest the more you prove my point. Pasteur died in 1895, Faraday died in 1867. They are the perfect example of what I meant when I said early science incorporated many creationist views, until they were falsified during and after the scientific revolution in the early 1900's. They were good, well educated men, for their time, but their opinions on how the world began were limited by the knowledge of their time. These days, you won't find creationism being taught anywhere but on the internet, why? Because it's not science, even the courts recognize that fact which is why creationism as science has been defeated every time it's ever been brought into a courtroom. It's also why all you can bring up are points from creationist websites that have been refuted 1,000 times.

Why would someone who doesn't believe in god, believe that god created the world?
Show me one person, from this day and age, who believes in creationism that isn't a devotee of the Christian or some other religious faith. I guarantee you can't do it, so don't try to toss out the lie that there are people who believe in creationism who aren't religious, it simply isn't true. Creationism as a whole stems from and is inherently tied to Christian fundamentalism, go ahead and prove me wrong, I'll wait. I'd also like to point out that I've yet to use the term "bible thumper" or "redneck" to describe you in any of my recent previous posts, so your straw man accusation doesn't hold up in this case. You imagine yourself to be persecuted but you're just trying to make excuses for why your arguments fail to convince anyone but yourself, and they are failing, desperately.

Evidence is evidence and it can come from anywhere as long as it can be considered pertinent data. Evolution web pages, creation web pages, scientific findings of all kinds.

Evidence is not considered evidence when it has been falsified over and over again since the 1900's which is what creationism is, it's nothing but pseudoscience and your protestations to someone like me on a paranormal forum do nothing to change that.

Have you even really looked at my postion? I have stated that none of us really knows exactly how old the earth is. I think that is an educated statement based on the known problems with Radio carbon dating in all of its forms, I never said it was totally wrong at all times. What I said was that it becomes less accurate over longer time spans and this is a fact. It is never totally accurate. If it could be proven beyond any doubt concerning creation of animal and plant life to be older than the rough number I have laid out there,then I would reconsider my position. Muadib thinks he has done that. I am not convinced of it because I don't trust the methods and the political muscle behind a lot of these conclusions.

Oh and there's no political muscle behind creationism? Are you effing kidding me? The bottom line is that regardless of what you WANT to believe, radiocarbon dating has been proven accurate time and time again, your examples have been falsified, every one of them practically and I can do the rest anytime I feel like it. Like it said in the article, at the very least and if nothing else, carbon14 dating can be proven to be completely and utterly accurate up to 20,000 years, that's double the time your average young earth creationist is willing to admit that the earth has been here and we have methods that are accurate with longer time periods. You bitch and moan about a 2-5% error margin but the fact is that it's still more than enough to prove that young earth creationism is a pile of steaming crap. It's not an educated position when we can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the earth is much older then you've allowed for.



The thing about dating with these various methods is that everything must be done under perfect conditions with a lot of knowledge about the samples, any minute contamination will skew everything and like a line drifting off 90 degrees by only .oo1 after a mile out the mistake becomes more and more apparent.

This is bullshit. We know the conditions and we have the knowledge about the samples, just read the articles and you'll see. This is my problem with you and the young earth creationist model, you want to pretend we're still stick in the late 1800's and science hasn't progressed since then, we have. I've provided countless examples for you, why don't you go refute those instead of complaining and moaning. I'll keep saying it, 2-5% error margin does not equal the earth is 10,000 years old.

The earth has gone through lots of floods and many many other tectonic and earthquake events all down through history.

Yes and we know about many of them, because they leave traces and we can interpret evidence. This is one of the reasons we know a world wide flood is a pile of crap.

I personally don't hold to the days in creation being longer than 24 hours because the text follows each day with " and the evening and the morning" I do think that the universe itself could be much much older as I have already said. And there is the possiblity that the world was being "recreated" from another prior cycle...I have no proof for this but it is an interesting theory.

Now we're back to using the bible as proof for things? I thought this was a scientific debate? Bring out some more of those funny creationist website sources so I can shoot holes in them again, that was fun.

Let me attempt to clear up a few possible other misconceptions about the represented position. I did read the entire article you posted and I think that the author raises some valid points but I disagree with him on more than a few of his points. Here are some of his assumptions that are taken as factual. He assumes that all of the people who hold to Biblical belief ignore certain evidence in order to protect their position, almost like they are afraid to objectively look at all of the evidence. Now I can say that there probably are those people , but to make a blanket statement that all evangelicals or Christians in science do this is blatently untrue. This would not be true science and in some cases maybe this is happening but I can empirically state that this is yet another attempt to classify a group of scientists with an untrue statement. It can also be fairly said that a percentage of those who staunchly hold to the evolutionist view will purposely ignore any data that might lead to the creation of anything. They see it as a cardinal sin not to offer an explanation for EVERYTHING. Even the things they can't explain...so they veer from true science in this regard as well. I can't say with any certainty that ALL evolutionists would reject alternate or conflicting evidence which is what the author here has done to the creationist viewpoint.

The highlighted portion is the single biggest pile of crap I've ever read. Science admits all the time that it doesn't know things. Science is honest when it says we don't know for sure the origin of life on this planet, abiogenesis is a theory but it's never taught as 100% objective truth. Compare that with your position on everything. What are arguably the two largest questions that man can ask? Where did we come from and why are we here? Let's look at the science based answer to those questions: I don't know but probably abiogenesis, followed by evolution via natural selection and for the second just a straight up I don't know. Now let's look at the creationist perspective to those two questions: We came from God and we're here to worship God. So who tries to explain the things they really can't explain and when pushed has nothing to offer up but a musty old book written by early human savages? You might not be afraid to look at the evidence, but you are afraid to modify your world view in light of it and you will try and try your hardest to punch holes in it, even when the holes you punch don't stand up to scrutiny, and they don't.

The author also accuses the creation crowd of making a special attempt to discredit radio dating methods because it is one of the few thin straws we can hold onto in order to support our position. The accusation that we went after radio carbon dating is only half true. Others have found flaws with the process as well and to find a flaw is not to always be taken to mean that there is a concerted effort to discredit it as a whole. I appreciate the hard work and those who done it that went into coming up with a system that makes a pretty good attempt at finding ages of things within a certain time frame. I'm just not buying into the trust level we are told we can be assured of when it comes to using it. There have been too many boo boos that Muadib hasn't brought to the table. This debate can be rigged either way when it comes to Carbon radio dating . I can find people who also did professional research and came to more negative conclusions on the process, The internet is a big thing and you can pretty much find pros on either side of the debate. I see the methods as tools but not entirely reliable tools and they are most often used by people with agendas.

See my earlier statements for this entire paragraph, and I'll get to refuting those new examples tonight or tomorrow. I notice all of them but one are from creation science websites, how typical. Why can't you find anything else? Ask yourself that question and let me know what the answer is.
 

For this we only have to look at the article and see that first of all, it was written in 1990. 1990! What's the matter you can't find anything more recent? Then we can look at the article itself and see that the scientists quoted in the article admit the problems of carbon14 dating on objects over 20,000 years old and suggest different methods for dating older objects. What are you hoping to accomplish with this article? I've already agreed with you that carbon14 dating, specifically, is only accurate up to a period of 20,000 years. That's still 10,000 years longer than most young earth creationists are willing to admit that the world has been here and it says absolutely nothing about the methods we use to date older material. From the article itself:

But scientists have long recognized that carbon dating is subject to error because of a variety of factors, including contamination by outside sources of carbon. Therefore they have sought ways to calibrate and correct the carbon dating method. The best gauge they have found is dendrochronology: the measurement of age by tree rings.
Accurate tree ring records of age are available for a period extending 9,000 years into the past. But the tree ring record goes no further, so scientists have sought other indicators of age against which carbon dates can be compared. One such indicator is the uranium-thorium dating method used by the Lamont-Doherty group.
Uranium 234, a radioactive element present in the environment, slowly decays to form thorium 230. Using a mass spectrometer, an instrument that accelerates streams of atoms and uses magnets to sort them out according to mass and electric charge, the group has learned to measure the ratio of uranium to thorium very precisely.
The Lamont-Doherty scientists conducted their analyses on samples of coral drilled from a reef off the island of Barbados. The samples represented animals that lived at various times during the last 30,000 years.
Uranium-Thorium Dating
Dr. Alan Zindler, a professor of geology at Columbia University who is a member of the Lamont-Doherty research group, said age estimates using the carbon dating and uranium-thorium dating differed only slightly for the period from 9,000 years ago to the present. ''But at earlier times, the carbon dates were substantially younger than the dates we estimated by uranium-thorium analysis,'' he said. ''The largest deviation, 3,500 years, was obtained for samples that are about 20,000 years old.''
One reason the group believes the uranium-thorium estimates to be more accurate than carbon dating is that they produce better matches between known changes in the Earth's orbit and changes in global glaciation.

According to carbon dating of fossil animals and plants, the spreading and receding of great ice sheets lagged behind orbital changes by several thousand years, a delay that scientists found hard to explain. But Dr. Richard G. Fairbanks, a member of the Lamont-Doherty group, said that if the dates of glaciation were determined using the uranium-thorium method, the delay - and the puzzle - disappeared.
The group theorizes that large errors in carbon dating result from fluctuations in the amount of carbon 14 in the air. Changes in the Earth's magnetic field would change the deflection of cosmic-ray particles streaming toward the Earth from the Sun. Carbon 14 is thought to be mainly a product of bombardment of the atmosphere by cosmic rays, so cosmic ray intensity would affect the amount of carbon 14 in the environment at any given time. #30,000-Year Limit The Lamont-Doherty group says uranium-thorium dating not only is more precise than carbon dating in some cases, but also can be used to date much older objects. Carbon dating is unreliable for objects older than about 30,000 years, but uranium-thorium dating may be possible for objects up to half a million years old, Dr. Zindler said. The method is less suitable, however, for land animals and plants than for marine organisms, because uranium is plentiful in sea water but less so in most soils.


But even if the method is limited to marine organisms, it will be extremely useful for deciphering the history of Earth's climate, ice, oceans and rocks, Dr. Fairbanks said.



Your own article says accuracy up to 500,000 years old. Gee, that's only 490,000 years more than most young earth creationists are willing to admit the earth was here. Nice try with this one, but carbon14 dating is just one tool in a large arsenal. I'm still waiting for you to "poke holes" in all of them as you said you could.
 

SCIENTIFIC AGE OF THE EARTH

B.gif
efore analyzing the arguments advanced by creation “scientists” for a very young Earth, I here summarize briefly the evidence that has convinced scientists that the Earth is 4.5 to 4.6 billion years old.
There can be no doubt about the Earth’s antiquity; the evidence is abundant, conclusive, and readily available to all who care to examine it. The best evidence is contained in the Earth’s incomplete and complex but accurate stratigraphic record — a record that has been the subject of nearly two centuries of study. Slowly and painstakingly, geologists have assembled this record into the generalized geologic time scale shown in Figure 1. This was done by observing the relative age sequence of rock units in a given area and determining, from stratigraphic relations, which rock units are younger, which are older, and what assemblages of fossils are contained in each unit. Using fossils to correlate from area to area, geologists have been able to work out a relative worldwide order of rock formations and to divide the rock record and geologic time into the eras, periods, and epochs shown in Figure 1. The last modification to the geologic time scale of Figure 1 was in the 1930s, before radiometric dating was fully developed, when the Oligocene Epoch was inserted between the Eocene and the Miocene.
Although early stratigraphers could determine the relative order of rock units and fossils, they could only estimate the lengths of time involved by observing the rates of present geologic processes and comparing the rocks produced by those processes with those preserved in the stratigraphic record. With the development of modern radiometric dating methods in the late 1940s and 1950s, it was possible for the first time not only to measure the lengths of the eras, periods, and epochs but also to check the relative order of these geologic time units. Radiometric dating verified that the relative time scale determined by stratigraphers and paleontologists (Figure 1) is absolutely correct, a result that could only have been obtained if both the relative time scale and radiometric dating methods were correct.
The abundance and variety of fossils in Phanerozoic rocks have allowed geologists to decipher in considerable detail the past 600 million years or so of the Earth’s history. In Precambrian rocks, however, fossils are rare; thus, the geologic record of this important part of the Earth’s history has been especially difficult to decipher. Nonetheless, stratigraphy and radiometric dating of Precambrian rocks have clearly demonstrated that the history of the Earth extends billions of years into the past.
Radiometric dating has not been applied to just a few selected rocks from the geologic record. Literally many tens of thousands of radiometric age measurements are documented in the scientific literature. Since beginning operation in the early 1960s, the Geochronology laboratories of the U. S. Geological Survey in Menlo Park, California, have alone produced more than 20,000 K-Ar, Rb-Sr, and 14C ages. Add to this number the age measurements made by from 50 to 100 other laboratories worldwide, and it is easy to see that the number of radiometric ages produced over the past two to three decades and published in the scientific literature must easily exceed 100,000. Taken as a whole, these data clearly prove that the Earth’s history extends backward from the present to at least 3.8 billion years into the past.
A particularly fascinating question about the history of the Earth is “When did the Earth begin?” The answer to this question was provided by radiometric dating and is now known to within a few percent.
Three basic approaches are used to determine the age of the Earth. The first is to search for and date the oldest rocks exposed on the surface of the Earth. These oldest rocks are metamorphic rocks with earlier but now erased histories, so the ages obtained in this way are minimum ages for the Earth. Because the Earth formed as part of the Solar System, a second approach is to date extraterrestrial objects, i.e., meteorites and samples from the Moon. Many of these samples have not had so intense nor so complex histories as the oldest Earth rocks, and they commonly record events nearer or equal to the time of formation of the planets. The third approach, and the one that scientists think gives the most accurate age for the Earth, the other planets, and the Solar System, is to determine model lead ages for the Earth, the Moon, and meteorites. This method is thought to represent the time when lead isotopes were last homogeneously distributed throughout the Solar System and, thus, the time that the planetary bodies were segregated into discrete chemical systems. The results from these methods indicate that the Earth, meteorites, the Moon, and, by inference, the entire Solar System are 4.5 to 4.6 billion years old.
Before reviewing briefly the evidence for the age of the Earth, I emphasize that the formation of the Solar System and the Earth was not an instantaneous event but occurred over a finite period as a result of processes set in motion when the universe formed. It is, therefore, more correct to talk about formational intervals rather than discrete ages for the Solar System and the Earth. Present evidence indicates, however, that these intervals were rather short (100-200 million years) in comparison with the length of time that has elapsed since the Solar System formed some 4 to 5 billion years ago. Thus, the ages of the Earth, the Moon, and meteorites as measured by different methods represent slightly different events, although the differences in these ages are generally slight, and so, for the purposes of this chapter they are here treated as a single event.
THE EARTH’S OLDEST ROCKS

All the major continents contain a core of very old rocks fringed by younger rocks. These cores, called Precambrian shields, are all that remain of the Earth’s oldest crust. The rocks in these shields are mostly metamorphic, meaning they have been changed from other rocks into their present form by great heat and pressure beneath the surface; most have been through more than one metamorphism and have had very complex histories. A metamorphic event may change the apparent radiometric age of a rock. Most commonly, the event causes partial or total loss of the radiogenic daughter isotope, resulting in a reduced age. Not all metamorphisms completely erase the radiometric record of a rock’s age, although many do. Thus, the radiometric ages obtained from these oldest rocks are not necessarily the age of the first event in the history of the rock. Moreover, many of the oldest dated rocks intrude still older but undatable rocks. In all cases, the measured ages provide only a minimum age for the Earth.
So far, rocks older than 3.0 billion years have been found in North America, India, Russia, Greenland, Australia, and Africa. The oldest rocks in North America, found in Minnesota, give a U-Pb discordia age of 3.56 billion years (Figure 5). The oldest rocks yet found on the Earth are in Greenland, South Africa, and India. The Greenland samples have been especially well studied. The Amitsoq Gneisses in western Greenland, for example, have been dated by five different methods (Table 6); within the analytical uncertainties, the ages are the same and indicate that these rocks are about 3.7 billion years old.
Table 6: Radiometric Ages on the Amitsoq Gneisses, Western Greenland. Data from Baadsgaard (10), Moorbath et al. (89), Pettingill and Patchett (106)
weighted mean age 3.67 ± 0.06
MethodAge (billion years)
Rb - Sr isochron 3.70 ± 0.14
Lu - Hf isochron 3.55 ± 0.22
Pb - Pb isochron 3.80 ± 0.12
U - Pb discordia 3.65 ± 0.05
Th - Pb discordia 3.65 ± 0.08
Whole-rock samples from the Sand River Gneisses in the Limpopo Valley, South Africa, have been dated by the Rb-Sr isochron method at 3.79 ± 0.06 billion years (15). These samples are from rocks that contain inclusions of still older but as yet undatable rocks. Recently, Basu and others (16) reported a nine-sample Sm-Nd isochron age of 3.78 ± 0.11 billion years for rocks in eastern India.
Studies of the oldest rocks from the Precambrian shields show that the Earth is older than 3.8 billion years. The geology of these oldest rocks also indicates that there was a substantial period of history of the Earth before 3.8 billion years ago for which no datable geological record now exists. There are several possible reasons for the apparent absence of this earliest record. One reason is that during that period of Earth’s history not only was the first continental crust forming, but it was also being vigorously recycled and regenerated. A second reason is that the Moon and, by inference, the Earth, were subjected to intense bombardment by large meteorites from the time of their initial formation to about 3.8 billion years ago; this bombardment occurred because the Earth was still sweeping up material in its orbital path. A third reason may be that the record of the Earth’s early history exists somewhere but simply has not yet been found. The correct reason for the absence of data may well be some combination of the above. Whatever the reasons, if we are to learn more about the Earth’s history before 3.8 billion years ago, we must examine the evidence obtained from other, older sources, particularly meteorites and the Moon.
AGES OF METEORITES

There are two basic types of meteorites, stone and iron; other types are intermediate in composition between these two. Stone meteorites are composed primarily of the silicate minerals olivine and pyroxene, whereas iron meteorites consist primarily of nickel-iron alloy. Stone meteorites commonly contain small amounts of nickel-iron, and many iron meteorites include small amounts of silicate minerals. Once thought to be the remains of a shattered planet, meteorites probably originated from some 20 to 70 different parent bodies the size of large asteroids. Some meteorites are samples of the parent bodies that apparently were large enough to undergo partial melting and differentiation to produce different rock types. Others, primarily the stone meteorites called chondrites, seem to represent rocks essentially unchanged since condensation from the solar nebula. The orbits of meteorites indicate that they are parts of the Solar System, probably samples of the asteroids, and thus that their age is relevant to the age of the Earth.
Like most things in nature, meteorites are not simple objects. This is especially true of those that have undergone differentiation, heating, and collisions with other bodies in space. To determine the age of the Solar System and the Earth, we must search for the oldest, least disturbed meteorites.
K-Ar ages on stone meteorites range from about 400 million years to nearly 5 billion years, with a large concentration at 4.4 to 4.6 billion years. The younger ages reflect heating and collision events, to which the K-Ar method is particularly susceptible, whereas the older ages record events near or equal to the time of meteorite formation. Many meteorites have now been dated by the 40Ar/39Ar age-spectrum method, which reveals that many meteorites were heated after their formation. The metallic phases in iron meteorites cannot be dated reliably by the K-Ar method because of their nearly negligible potassium content and cosmic-ray effects. However, silicate inclusions in several iron meteorites have been dated by the K-Ar method at 4.5 ± 0.2 billion years (19).
Some of the most precise ages on meteorites have been obtained by the Rb-Sr isochron method. Table 7 lists some of these ages, from Faure’s (49) summary. Figure 3 plots the isochron for the meteorite Juvinas. Some iron meteorites containing small silicate inclusions have also been dated by the Rb-Sr isochron method; the results indicate that the least disturbed iron meteorites are of the same age (4.6 billion years) as the least disturbed stone meteorites.
Table 7: Summary of Some Rb-Sr Isochron Ages of Meteorites From the Compilation of Faure (49)
Note:


All ages are based on a value of 1.39 × 10-11 y-1 for
the decay constant of 87Rb. The currently accepted
value of 1.42 × 10-11 yr-1 has the effect of lowering
these ages slightly.
MaterialMethodAge (bil-
lion years)
Juvinas (achrondrite) Mineral isochron 4.60 ± 0.07
Allende (carbonaceous
chrondrite) Mixed isochron 4.5-4.7
Colomera (silicate
inclusion, iron meteorite) Mineral isochron 4.61 ± 0.04
Enstatite chondrites Whole-rock isochron 4.54 ± 0.13
Enstatite chondrites Mineral isochron 4.56 ± 0.15
Carbonaceous chon-
drites Whole-rock isochron 4.69 ± 0.14
Amphoterite chon-
drites Whole-rock isochron 4.56 ± 0.15
Bronzite chondrites Whole-rock isochron 4.69 ± 0.14
Hypersthene chon-
drites Whole-rock isochron 4.48 ± 0.1
Krahenberg (amphoter-
ite) Mineral isochron 4.70 ± 0.01
Norton County (achon-
drite) Mineral isochron 4.7 ± 0.1
Meteorites have also been dated by the Sm-Nd isochron method. Jacobsen and Wasserburg (69), for example, showed that 10 chondrites and the achondrite Juvinas all fall on an isochron of 4.60 billion years.
The results of radiometric dating on meteorites clearly indicate that these objects formed about 4.6 billion years ago. Because astrophysical considerations require that the formation of the planets and meteorites by condensation from the solar nebula was essentially simultaneous, we can infer with considerable certainty that the age of the most primitive meteorites also is the age of formation of the Earth. Even if we wished to deny this inference, we would still be forced to conclude that meteorites, which must at least post date the formation of the Solar System and the universe, are no less than 4.6 billion years old.
 
AGES OF LUNAR ROCKS

The Apollo missions, for the first time, gave scientists the exciting opportunity to study samples from another planet. Although all the samples provide important information about the history of the Moon, for data on the age of formation of the Moon we must again look at the oldest rocks.
The surface of the Moon can be divided into the lunar highlands and the lunar maria. The highlands are mountainous upland areas that still preserve some aspects of the original impact morphology of the earliest Moon. The maria, or “seas,” are younger, lowland areas that were flooded by lava after impact by asteroid-size bodies. The Apollo missions returned samples from both the highlands and maria.
Because of the severe impact history of the early Moon and the consequent heating and metamorphism of lunar samples, the conventional K-Ar method is not particularly useful in the study of lunar rock formation because it tends to date the latest heating and impact events rather than original rock ages. The ages of lunar rocks are known primarily from 40Ar/39Ar age-spectrum and Rb-Sr isochron dating; Table 8 lists some of these ages. As can be seen from this table, the rocks from each landing site give similar ages by both methods; this agreement cannot be a mere coincidence but must reflect the true ages of the rocks within the analytical uncertainties. Table 8, however, lists only data obtained before 1974; since that time, older rocks, from the lunar highlands, have been analyzed.
Numerous 40Ar/39Ar age-spectrum ages of highland rocks fall between about 4.0 and 4.5 billion years. The oldest ages, however, have been measured by the Rb/Sr isochron method on samples from the Apollo 17 site. These include mineral isochron ages of 4.55 ± 0.1, 4.60 ± 0.1, and 4.43 ± 0.05 billion years for three different rock types. In addition, 40Ar/39Ar age-spectrum analyses from the Apollo 16 site have now shown two rocks with ages of 4.47 and 4.42 billion years (see summary in 75), and Sm-Nd isochron ages of 4.23 ± 0.05 and 4.34 ± 0.05 billion years have been determined for two Apollo 17 samples (23).
Table 8: Summary of Some Radiometric Ages of Lunar Basalts. From the Compilation by Head (62)
LocationAge (billion years)Rock typeSampleMethod
Apollo 14 –
highlands 3.96 Al basalt 14053 Rb-Sr
3.95 Al basalt 14053 40Ar-39Ar
3.95 Al basalt 14321 Rb-Sr
Apollo 17 –
highlands 3.83 High-Ti basalt 75055 Rb-Sr
3.82 High-Ti basalt 70035 Rb-Sr
3.76 High-Ti basalt 75055 40Ar-39Ar
3.74 High-Ti basalt 75083 40Ar-39Ar
Apollo 11 –
mare 3.82 Low-K basalt 10062 40Ar-39Ar
3.71 Low-K basalt 10044 Rb-Sr
3.63 Low-K basalt 10058 Rb-Sr
3.68 High-K basalt 10071 Rb-Sr
3.63 High-K basalt 10057 Rb-Sr
3.61 High-K basalt 10024 Rb-Sr
3.59 High-K basalt 10017 Rb-Sr
3.56 High-K basalt 10022 40Ar-39Ar
Luna 16 –
highlands 3.45 Al basalt B-1 40Ar-39Ar
3.42 Al basalt B-1 Rb-Sr
Apollo 15 –
highlands 3.44 Quartz basalt 15682 Rb-Sr
3.40 Quartz basalt 15085 Rb-Sr
3.35 Quartz basalt 15117 Rb-Sr
3.33 Quartz basalt 15076 Rb-Sr
3.32 Olivine basalt 15555 Rb-Sr
3.31 Olivine basalt 15555 40Ar-39Ar
3.26 Quartz basalt 15065 Rb-Sr
Apollo 12 –
mare 3.36 Olivine basalt 12002 Rb-Sr
3.30 Olivine basalt 12063 Rb-Sr
3.30 Olivine basalt 12040 Rb-Sr
3.27 Quartz basalt 12051 40Ar-39Ar
3.26 Quartz basalt 12051 Rb-Sr
3.24 Olivine basalt 12002 40Ar-39Ar
3.24 Quartz basalt 12065 40Ar-39Ar
3.18 Quartz basalt 12064 Rb-Sr
3.16 Quartz basalt 12065 Rb-Sr
The hundreds of radiometric ages on lunar rocks show clearly that the initial formation of the Moon was 4.5 to 4.6 billion years ago. There are, to be sure, some uncertainties about the exact chronology and events that led to the Moon we now see, but there is little doubt about when the Moon formed or about the date of the major volcanic events that produced the igneous rocks at the various Apollo sites.
MODEL LEAD AGE OF METEORITES AND THE EARTH

The generally accepted age of the Earth is based on a simple but elegant model for the evolution of lead isotopes. This model was developed independently by Houtermans (65) and Holmes (63), and first applied to meteorites and the Earth by Clair Patterson, now at the California Institute of Technology, in 1953. In his classic paper, Patterson (104) reasoned that if the Pb-isotopic composition were uniform in the solar nebula and, thus, uniform in the planetary bodies and meteorites at the time of their formation, and if these bodies contained differing amounts of uranium, then the Pb-isotopic composition of these bodies should fall on a straight-line isochron when the 207Pb/204Pb ratio is plotted against the 206Pb/204Pb ratio (Figure 8). The lower end of the isochron in Figure 8 represents the Pb-isotopic composition in a phase of iron meteorites (troilite, or iron sulfide) that contains no uranium; this point represents the initial Pb-isotopic composition of the Solar System.
Figure 8: Meteoric lead-isotope isochron showing that the age of meteorites and the Earth is about 4.55 billion years. After Murthy and Patterson (98) and York and Farquhart (136).
figure8.jpg

The Pb-isotopic compositions of iron and stone meteorites fall on an isochron age of 4.55 billion years (Figure 8). Note that this method, like the other isochron methods, is self-checking. Modern Earth leads, as represented by the Pb-isotopic compositions of some very young non-uranium-bearing minerals, also fall close to the meteoritic isochron,9 a result that we would expect if the Earth and meteorites formed contemporaneously. The ratios in lunar rocks have much larger values than those in terrestrial rocks and meteorites; they fall out of the field of Figure 8, but they do lie very close to the extension of the meteoritic isochron and, therefore, indicate a similar age.
If the Earth, the Moon, and meteorites were not genetically related and of the same age, there would be no reason for their Pb-isotopic compositions to lie along the same isochron. This is convincing evidence that the planetary bodies, including the Earth, all formed about 4.55 billion years ago. Note that Patterson’s (104) original estimate of the age of the Earth has changed very little over the past three decades. In a recent reevaluation, Tera (125) concludes that the age of the Earth is about 4.54 billion years. Tera also summarizes several other lead models for the Earth’s age; they all give results within the range 4.43 to 4.59 billion years. Thus, although there is still some debate about the exact age of the Earth and the Solar System, scientists are quibbling only about the first one- or two-tenths of a billion years. The age of the Earth is known to within about one part in 45, i.e., about two percent.
 
SOME CREATIONIST AGES OF THE EARTH

Other Links:
How Good Are Those Young-Earth Arguments?
A look at the arguments used by Kent Hovind to "prove" that the Earth is young.
An Index to Creationist Claims
A comprehensive look at the claims of all kinds of creationists arguments including young-earth arguments not debunked in "How Old is the Earth."
I.gif
n spite of conclusive evidence of the Earth’s antiquity, the proponents of “scientific” creationism stubbornly maintain that the Earth is only about 10,000 years old (Table 9). How do they arrive at these numbers? They have no consistent set of data that leads to any definite age for the Earth. Their “evidence” consists of invalid criticisms of the legitimate scientific data, as discussed above, and of some calculations that supposedly show that the Earth is very young. These calculations occur throughout the literature of creation “science” (e.g., 13, 77, 92, 116, 135), and they have been conveniently tabulated by Morris (93, 95) and Morris and Parker (97) (Table 10).
Concerning this tabulation, Morris and Parker (97) make the following statement:
There are, as a matter of fact, scores of worldwide processes which give ages far too young to suit the standard Evolution Model. There are 68 types of such calculations listed in Table I, all of them independent of each other and all applying essentially to the entire earth, or one of its major components or to the solar system. All give ages far too young to accommodate the Evolution Model. All are based on the same types of calculations and assumptions used by evolutionists on the very few systems (uranium, potassium, rubidium) whose radioactive decay seems to indicate ages in the billions of years. As noted in items 25 and 26 in Table I, even these methods (when based on real empirical evidence) yield young ages.
The most obvious characteristic of the values listed in the table is their extreme variability — all the way from 100 years to 500,000,000 years. This variability, of course, simply reflects the errors in the fundamental uniformitarian assumptions.
Nevertheless, all things considered, it seems that those ages on the low end of the spectrum are likely to be more accurate than those on the high end. This conclusion follows from the obvious fact that: (1) they are less likely to have been affected by initial concentrations or positions other than “zero”; (2) the assumption that the system was a “closed system” is more likely to be valid for a short time than for a long time; (3) the assumption that the process rate was constant is also more likely to be valid for a short time than for a long time.
Thus, it is concluded that the weight of all the scientific evidence favors the view that the earth is quite young, far too young for life and man to have arisen by an evolutionary process. The origin of all things by direct creation — already necessitated by many other scientific considerations — is therefore also indicated by chronometric data. (97, p. 251-252; also 95, p. 53-54)​
Table 9: Some Representative Ages of the Earth as Proposed by Creationists
Age of:Age (years)Reference
Earth 10,000 Barnes(13)
Earth 10,000 Morris (92)
Earth 13,000 Camping (22)
Earth 10,000 - 20,000 Kofahi and Segraves (77)
Galaxies nearly 6,000 Gentry (53)
Cosmos 6,000 - 10,000 Slusher (116)
Earth 7,000 - 10,000 Slusher (117)
 
The problem with these 68 “ages” of the Earth is that they are all either based on false initial assumptions or have too many unknown variables for a reliable solution, or both. Nearly all these methods have been aired in the scientific literature and found to be so worthless that scientists do not use them for determining the age of the Earth.
An inspection of the reference lists provided by Morris (93, 95) and Morris and Parker (97) shows that most of the calculations were done and published by Morris and his colleagues. Those calculations that are attributed to scientific journals do not actually appear there but, instead, represent unjustified interpretations by creationists of legitimate scientific data.
In addition, Morris (95) and Morris and Parker (97) draw an unwarranted parallel between their calculations and radiometric dating. Most of their “ages” rely on the assumption of constant rates for processes known to vary. Radiometric dating, in contrast, is based on a process (radioactive decay) known not to vary significantly with changes in physical or chemical conditions.
Creationists (e.g., 97) frequently claim that “evolutionists”10 use the principle of uniformity to interpret scientific data, but these authors badly misrepresent the modern meaning of uniformitarianism. The principle of uniformity was developed in the late 18th and early 19th centuries, when geologists finally realized that the rocks and features of the Earth were formed by processes similar to those observable today operating over long periods. This was an important breakthrough in scientific thought because it meant that the Earth’s history could be explained as the result of understandable, natural processes, rather than unknowable, supernatural, catastrophic evens. Creationists, however, typically state or imply that the principle of uniformity, as used by scientists, means that the rates of natural processes are always constant. Hubbert (66) reviewed the principle of uniformity and concluded that it is no longer a useful principle.
History, human or geological, represents our hypothesis, couched in terms of past events, devised to explain our present-day observations. What are our assumptions in such a procedure? Fundamentally, they are two:
(1) We assume that natural laws are invariant with time
(2) We exclude hypotheses of the violation of natural laws by Divine Providence, or other forms of supernaturalism. (66, p. 31)​
The principle of uniformity, if it has any meaning at all in modern science, includes no more than these two principles. Indeed, most modern scholars of the subject have concluded that uniformitarianism today is simply the application of the scientific method to nature and that the term is so confusing it should be abandoned (for example, Gould, 59, p. 111). Thus, in assuming and then condemning constant rates for geologic processes, Morris and Parker (97) and their colleagues have set up a straw man based on an obsolete historical definition of uniformity that no modern geologist would accept.
In the remainder of this chapter I examine 49 of the “ages” of the Earth advanced by creation “scientists”, using Morris and Parker’s (97) tabulation (Table 10) as a guide. I will show that all 49 of these ages are invalid and that most are probably best described as silly. I do not discuss the remaining ages listed in Table 10 either because they are not within my area of expertise or because I simply did not have time to investigate them. I think it is reasonable to assume, however, that the 70 percent or so I did investigate are representative and that the methods I do not discuss are likewise meaningless.
DECAY OF THE EARTH’S MAGNETIC FIELD
(Table 10, no. 1)


Other Links:
On Creation Science and the Alleged Decay of the Earth's Magnetic Field
A debunking of the common young-earth creationist claims that a decaying magnetic field shows that the the Earth is young.
Barnes (13, 14) claims to have proved that the Earth can be no more than 10,000 years old:
Applying the reasonable premise that this planet never had a magnetic field as great as that of a magnetic star, one can note from Table 2 that the origin of the earth’s magnetic field had to be more recent than 8000 B.C. That is to say, the origin of the earth’s magnetic field was less than 10,000 years ago. Just how much more recent than 10,000 years cannot be determined from present scientific knowledge. If one assumes that the initial value of the earth’s magnetic field were about an order-of-magnitude less than that of a magnetic star the origin would have been about six or seven thousand years ago. (13, p. 25)​
Similar statements are made by Morris (92), Slusher (117), and Kofahl and Segraves (77), who cite Barnes (13) as their source.
Barnes’ (13) argument goes like this. The strength of the Earth’s dipole moment has been decreasing linearly since magnetic-field measurements were begun in the early 1800s. This decrease amounts to about 6 percent between 1835 and 1965. Following an hypothesis he erroneously attributes to Sir Horace Lamb, Barnes claims that the magnetic field has been decaying exponentially since the creation of the Earth and calculates that the half-life of the decay is 1400 years. He then extrapolates the decay of the field backward in time until he arrives at the value for a magnetic star, and uses that time (8000 B.C.) to arrive at an upper limit for the age of the Earth.
In another report (33) I show in detail how Barnes’ (13) calculations and conclusions are flawed by false initial assumptions and an overly simplified view of magnetic-field behavior. Thus, it will suffice to summarize briefly the evidence against Barnes’ propositions.
To a first approximation, the Earth’s field is that of a dipole11 with the lines of flux emerging at the poles. On the average, over periods of 100,000 to 1,000,000 years, the magnetic poles coincide with the Earth’s rotational poles. The shape of the dipole field is not ideal but is highly distorted by irregularities superimposed on the dipole field. These irregularities, collectively called the nondipole field, are thought to be caused by eddy currents in the liquid core at the Earth’s core/mantle boundary. Like the dipole field, the nondipole field is slowly and constantly changing. The Earth’s magnetic field we actually observe at any spot on the Earth is the sum of dipole and nondipole fields.
As if this behavior were not complex enough, the Earth’s dipole field does other remarkable things. For example, it occasionally reverses polarity, so that the north pole becomes the south pole and vice versa (30). Paleomagnetic measurements on lava flows indicate that these polarity reversals have occurred at irregular but frequent intervals. Barnes (13) denies that the Earth’s field has reversed, but he fails to cite the relevant literature on the subject and does not refute the numerous observations that prove field reversal.
The field also changes intensity or strength, though not in the way Barnes (13) claims. A careful analysis of the Earth’s field by McDonald and Gunst (85) showed that the decrease in the dipole moment over the past 50 years has been balanced by a corresponding increase in the nondipole component of the field, so that the total energy of the field external to the Earth’s core has been approximately constant. Over the past 120 years, however, it appears that the nondipole-field increase has not been quite sufficient to balance the dipole-field decrease, and so the total field appears to have been decreasing at an average annual rate of about 0.01 percent (129), much less than the value used by Barnes (13). Is there any reason to conclude that this short-term decrease is permanent, as Barnes claims? No. There is conclusive evidence, for example, that the Earth’s field temporarily decays during polarity reversals, which have been frequent during geologic history. Paleomagnetic measurements of the magnetic record in rocks indicate that the Earth’s dipole moment over the past 8000 years or so has not been continuously decaying but, instead, has been fluctuating (Figure 9). How much of this fluctuation is balanced by the nondipole field and how much is a fluctuation in the total magnetic-field energy is not known, but the field certainly does not behave as Barnes (13) claims. Barnes makes the fundamental error of equating the strength of the dipole field with the strength of the total field and, in doing so, ignores the nondipole field, a major component. He also errs in equating the strength of the dipole field with the total-field energy, most of which is probably locked up in a toroidal component internal to the liquid core and, thus, unobservable from the surface of the Earth.
Figure 9: Geomagnetic dipole moment estimated from 500-year global averages of measurements on lava flows and archeological materials, such as bricks and pottery. Vertical lines are standard deviations. Dots are averages from three or more regions of the Earth, half-filled circles two regions, and circles a single region. The dotted line is the average of all the data; the dashed line is the value for the 1965 field. After Champion (25).
figure9.jpg

The magnetic record in rocks12 clearly indicates that the Earth’s magnetic field during Precambrian times was within about 50 percent or so of its present strength (88). These observations are consistent with theoretical considerations, which show that the Earth’s field is probably generated by a self-exciting fluid dynamo in the Earth’s liquid-metal core and that the necessary energy comes from either radioactive heat within the Earth or gravitational energy, or both. Some time in the future, the magnetic field of the Earth may begin to decrease permanently as the Earth’s available energy is used up, but it will be billions of years before that happens.
The Earth cannot be dated by its magnetic field, and Barnes’ (13) calculations are meaningless, as is his maximum age for the Earth.
 
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