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Be Afraid

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You have a point within the context of the reasoning itself, but let's also remember that the purpose of playing Devil's advocate was not for me to prove the opposing point, but to evoke a greater understanding of the issue, and in that sense I think we're making progress. To be more specific, your comment that, "we're never going to have a utopian society where everyone agrees on everything and we all hold hands and sing songs together" elevates the discussion above the "us vs them" debate toward a more sophisticated and holistic perspective.

But can we maintain this higher ground? We could both jump back into the pit with our science guns blazing, lobbing fact grenades and hanging propaganda posters, but what would be the point when we've just determined that doing so would be pointless? On the other hand, perhaps if we were to try to study some of the underlying forces from a more objective point of view, we might find that there is more hope than we thought. In this spirit I'll propose that we might discuss the topic of indoctrination. Religious people often deny having been indoctrinated, even if they've been brought up in a religious household. So where is the line between parenting and indoctrination?

indoctrinate: to cause to believe something: to teach somebody a belief, doctrine, or ideology thoroughly and systematically,​
especially with the goal of discouraging independent thought or the acceptance of other opinions. ( Encarta ).​

Or alternatively, if you think we can make more progress along another line of inquiry that doesn't descend back into the debate ... I'm open to suggestions. You have the floor :) !

To me the difference between good parenting and indoctrination is in encouraging your children to question things and in accepting the possibility that they may develop opinions that are contrary to yours. Believe it or not, I was raised in a religious household, I was in church every Sunday as a child, until I was old enough to make up my own mind. I started to question religion at a young age and by my teens I realized that it had no real answers to the questions I was asking. My parents supported me in this and let me make my own decision when it came to whether or not I wanted to believe in religious doctrine. They never took a dogmatic approach where I had to believe what they wanted me to believe. That's the difference between indoctrinating your children and letting them come to their own understanding.

I think the difference between being indoctrinated and not being indoctrinated is in the ability to change your opinion when better information supported by more evidence comes along. Right now, I think abiogenesis is the best explanation with the most convincing evidence to support it for the origin of life on this planet, however, if a better theory with better evidence comes along then I'll gladly abandon that theory in favor of the theory that has the most convincing evidence. In other words, I have no emotional or spiritual attachment to the theory and can adapt to new information. Someone who believes in something as dogmatic as creationism cannot claim to do the same and anyway, if they really gave a rats ass about evidence they wouldn't believe in creationism in the first place.

Of course, there are many forms of indoctrination, religious indoctrination being only one of them, though depending on your religious outlook it may contain other forms of indoctrination. Hatred of homosexuals, misogyny, equating other religions and cultures with devil worship and even racism can be different forms of indoctrination that come along with religious indoctrination, but this isn't always the case. IMO the closer you get to any form of fundamentalism, whether it be Christian, Muslim or Jewish, the closer you get to being indoctrinated since these fundamentalist type beliefs rely on extremism and the hatred, fear and intentional misunderstanding of any other forms of belief and any opinions that contradict their own belief. They also condemn asking questions, independent thought, and acceptance of the opinions of others because they couldn't survive otherwise. Thankfully, this also limits their appeal and the narrow outlook they propose will one day lead to the slow death of their belief system as more and more people reject their hateful ideas and seek to better understand not only each other, but also the world around them.
 
I still argue that there is a lot of good in Christianity, same goes for Islam and Buddhism. I'm often lost as how people do not see that these 'most revered tomes' shouldn't be taken literally. Howto: Live with other (scary eh ;) ) people. Many self proclaimed Christians quoting the book would be dead by now due to them breaking this or that eternal rule.

Ah well, it is a pointless debate really. To each his or her own.
 
Mike I read your comments on neanderthal man regarding men as meat eaters . I would counter that the very basis for neanderthal man is not a good foundation to build on in light of the facts we have on it , neither from a dating perspective or from a reality check perspective.
Neanderthal Man Does Not Support Evolution

Maudib I am getting pretty comfortable with your regular insults here. Actually I have come to expect it of you and this time my expectations were right on the mark. Your tactics are also well noted. Here is my response to the young moon theory- The Moon is Still Young



I have said and it has been ignored by at least a few of you here that I allow for the possibility of an older earth based on Gen 1:1 and my belief that the span from when the earth was merely a formless lump to the first created day could have been a very long time because depending on how you read this. But you were so busy trying to disprove me that you must have missed that little bit of info,or is it that then you might have to admit to a created universe because the view actually accomidates yours to a small extent.I think science and creation go hand in hand....but what we are getting now isn't science it is ideology and agenda.

Renaissance Lady I read your post.....3 times so that I would get it all. You did a good job of sorting the various viruses here and in describing how they work and change. You are laying the burden of proof on me to prove that this isn't evolution. In addition to this I am supposed to scientifically document my position on , The Biblical flood, Creation of the world, the age of the universe....and now how viruses produce and mutate. All of these are gargatuan in and of themselves let alone all of them and on my spare time, lol. Anything less from me is viewed as evasive.

I appreciate that you took time from your busy schedule to post the information. I wear a lot of hats and so I'm not exaggerating that I have little time.I probably shouldn't even be here because of my lack of time.It's not like this place is full of my buds. I knew Muadib would jump on this one,and you know what? That's ok.

I'll give you my take on the whole virus/evolution thing. I think certain terms are used loosely to prove certain things within a context that stretches the term itself. Yes we can certainly see these changes on a yearly basis. The question is do these observed changes explain all of the theory of evolution? You would say yes. I would say no. I think it shows an incredible resiliance of the organisms to adapt. That seems to be the end of it though in terms of what I consider to be evolution.

Since I believe that Adam and Eve were at one time immortal until their fall something happened that caused them to move from an immortal body to a mortal body. There was a marked change in either their physiology, the environment, or both. I tend to think the creator made our bodies less resiliant to bacteria but He may have also made bacteria more hardy. No matter how you look at it our physical bodies are going to a grave one day and there are millions of bugs out there capable of making that happen.

Lets face it, I didn't think I was going to come here and get a warm reception or comments like, " I think you were right after all" and If you think I am going to say something like, Maudib thanks for showing me the light,never looked at things that way".,you may need to wait a long time.... Your position that anyone who isn't buying into it all is a moron is just one more fabrication to add to all of the other fabrications.

If it makes you all feel better to post anti-Christian vids and tons of "supposed" evidence that attempt to make anyone holding another view look like they have the short end of the stick let me suggest that all the vids and cute little pics in the world won't change the truth for what it really is and that will all be coming out soon enough.

I think it would kill some of you to admit that there might be support for creation and that the argument actually favors creation over DNA just "happening".

Evolution is part of a much larger agenda. This is the only reason that it is so well defended,even if much of it makes no scientific sense at all.
 
Maudib I am getting pretty comfortable with your regular insults here. Actually I have come to expect it of you and this time my expectations were right on the mark. Your tactics are also well noted. Here is my response to the young moon theory- The Moon is Still Young


I think it would kill some of you to admit that there might be support for creation and that the argument actually favors creation over DNA just "happening".

Evolution is part of a much larger agenda. This is the only reason that it is so well defended,even if much of it makes no scientific sense at all.

Once again you post evidence that simply doesn't stand up to scrutiny, the argument that the moon is young is a typical creationist tactic that has been debunked thousands of times. I think it would kill you to admit that nobody here posits that DNA "just happened" I also think it would kill you to admit that evolution makes perfect scientific sense if you actually knew the science behind it, which you clearly don't based on the idiotic logic you've used to defend your position. Nobody thinks that you're going to break down and see the light, we've already ascertained that you're completely and utterly indoctrinated and that there is no hope for you, my arguments are not meant for you but for the people reading this thread so they aren't swayed by your ridiculous creationist propaganda. What's really hilarious is that you think humans being immortal "before the fall" is a scientifically defensible position, it just proves how little you actually know about science. Your argument about how evolution is part of some large anti Christian agenda just doesn't stand up to scrutiny, like everything else you say, because there are plenty of Christian evolutionists. Your fundamentalist views are the views of a dying breed and in my opinion, they can't die soon enough.

The Recession of the Moon

and the Age of the Earth-Moon System

by Tim Thompson
Copyright © 2000
[Last Update: December 1999]
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Other Links:
The Moon is Still Young
The True.Origin Archive, the major rebuttal site to this Archive, has a response to this page by Malcolm Bowden who happens to be a geocentrist.
Introduction

O.gif
ne of the common arguments made in support of young-Earth creationism is that the dynamic age of the Earth-moon system (as determined by the physics of the Earth-moon tidal interaction) is too young to support a multi-billion year age for the system. In this article I will (a) review the basic physics of gravity and tides, (b) review the history of theoretical models for Earth-moon tides, (c) review the paleontological evidence relevant to the history of the Earth-moon system, and (d) demonstrate that the combination of theory and observation refute the young-Earth creationist arguments, with reference to specific young-Earth arguments and their specific failures. This is intended as a review for readers not versed in physics and math, so the arguments are presented as non-technically as possible. There are references to more technical work, for those who are interested in following up any of the arguments presented here as accepted assertions.
While this article is intended as a refutation of yet another ill conceived young-Earth argument, the introductory reviews do not refer to creationism at all. Therefore, the article should work just as well as an introduction to the physics of the evolution of the Earth-moon system, even for those readers not interested in the issue of creation vs. evolution.
Introduction to Gravity

Although gravity has been known to exist since people knew they could fall, it was not until Isaac Newton came along that a mathematical description of gravity was forthcoming. It was Newton who showed that the force of gravity obeyed a simple algebraic equation, shown here as equation 1.
Fg = Gm1m2 / R2 equation 1
In equation 1, Fg is the gravitational force between two objects of mass m1 and m2 and R is the distance that separates the two masses. This equation is important because it is the fundamental equation for describing the force of gravity in Newtonian physics. It is, however, an idealization; it assumes the masses m1 and m2 are point masses, in that they have no physical size. But, of course, all real masses are not point masses, and therefore do not exactly obey Newton's equation. However, as an approximation the equation works very well for masses that are separated by distances that are very large compared to their physical size. For instance, in analyzing Earth's orbit around the sun, one needs to include the gravitational effect of the other planets, as expressed by equation 1, but one need not worry about the fact that they are not point masses, since the differential effect is not measurable.
Introduction to Tides

A tide is what happens when the masses we see in equation 1 are not separated by distances that are large compared to their physical size. A tide is a "differential gravity", the result of the fact that extended bodies do not pull equally on all parts of each other, as equation 1 would imply. In figure 2, below, we see how the tidal force operates between Earth and the moon, where the red arrows show the relative pull of the moon's gravity on Earth.
Figure 1. The action of the Earth-moon tidal force
(Acknowledgement)
tide-force.gif

As figure 1 shows, the force is not constant over the distance between the moon and the various parts of the Earth. The moon, being rather closer to the near-side of Earth, pulls harder on it (where the red arrows are longer), while it pulls more lightly on the side of Earth that is farther away (where the red arrows are shorter). In physics, we call this kind of effect a "gradient", and it represents the differences in force applied at different points. The strength of that gradient is represented in equation 2 below.
DF / DR = 2Gm1m2 / R3 equation 2
In equation 2, DF / DR represents a change in the force (DF) with respect to a change in distance (DR). That variation in force, or tidal gradient, is what produces the distortion in the shape of both Earth and the moon, while the force seen in equation 1 is what keeps Earth and the moon in orbit around each other. As the red arrows in figure 1 imply, there is a "inward" pull on the poles of the Earth, towards the equator, which would tend to squeeze the planet. Squeeze a rubber ball that way, and you can see for yourself that the inward squeeze causes an outward squish at the "equator" of the ball. Add to that the effect that the moon pulls harder on those parts of the Earth that are closer to it, and the result is that the Earth is squished, bulging towards the moon, and away from the moon. The effect is illustrated below, in figure 2.
Figure 2. The results of the Earth-moon tidal force
(Acknowledgement)
tidal-bulge.gif

The illustration in figure 2 above shows the solid earth (green) and the oceans (blue) in schematic form. The "solid" Earth really isn't all that solid, and it does bend under the moon's tidal stress, but the water oceans are clearly far less "solid" than the rest of the Earth, and so they will be much more deformed by the moon's tidal squeeze. Hence, the bulge is mostly ocean, and only a little bit ground. The gaseous atmosphere is tidally squished too, but it does not figure much in the total system, and I will ignore it here (a detailed study of tides should not ignore atmospheric tides, I only do it here because it does not figure prominently in this particular discussion).
In a static system such as in figure 2, the mostly ocean bulge points right at the moon. But the real system is not static; the moon goes around the Earth, but the Earth spins on its daily axis much faster than that. So the spin of the Earth pulls the bulge out in front of the moon. The result of this is illustrated below in figure 3, and we are now ready to understand the greater mysteries of tides and the Earth-moon system.
Figure 3. How tides transfer momentum to the moon
(Acknowledgement)
tide-friction.jpg

The ocean bulge is pulled in front of the moon by Earth's spin; since the ocean is gravitationally stuck to the Earth, it has to go where the Earth goes. But it can't go too far, because it is pulled back by the moon. The result, illustrated in figure 3, is that the ocean bulge is in equilibrium, remaining essentially fixed with respect to the Earth and moon, while the solid Earth spins under the ocean. The ocean is gravitationally bound to the Earth, but it is still fluid, and not stuck to the Earth the way a rock or a mountain is. There is an interface, namely the ocean bottom, where the water and the Earth are free to move with respect to each other. That interface, like any other real physical interface, is not totally frictionless, and that too is illustrated in figure 3 by the small caption that reads "Friction force". But in this case, "friction" includes all of the ways that the ocean and the Earth impede each other. The ocean runs into the continents and has to wash around them (so how they are distributed around the Earth makes a difference).
Since the Earth is trying to spin forward, but the ocean is held back by the moon, the Earth winds up trying to move through the oceans. Just as you can feel the resistance if you try to walk through water, so the Earth feels the resistance trying to move through the water of the oceans, and that resistance transfers energy from the Earth (causing its spin rate to slow), and to the oceans (sloshing them around and heating them up). But the Earth-ocean system also exerts a torque (a "twisting" force) on the moon, because the line along the arrow labeled "B" in figure 3 is at an angle to the line that connects the center of the Earth to the center of the moon. As a result of that torque, the Earth also transfers energy (causing its spin rate to slow) through the ocean bulge, and gravity, to the moon (causing it to speed forward in its orbit, and therefore move farther away from the Earth).
At this point we are ready to understand two important observations. First, the high and low ocean tides we all know about, are caused by the Earth moving through the high and low parts of the ocean, seen in either figure 2 or figure 3. Since we are on the Earth, it looks to us, from our frame of reference, as if the ocean is doing the moving, but however you want to look at it, the result is the same. The Earth and its oceans move with respect to each other, because of the pull of the moon, and we see that motion as what we call high & low tides. Second, the moon is slowly drifting away from the Earth. That means that the moon is not where it has always been with respect to the Earth; the Earth-moon system clearly must have evolved over time. Can we figure out how the Earth-moon system has evolved? I will review the answer to that question in the next section.
 
Continued...

Tidal Evolution of the Earth-Moon System

The description I have given so far is necessarily general, and leaves out a lot of details. But there is a lot of physics and mathematics hidden behind that layman's facade, and it has to be dealt with in order to understand the real nature of the tidal relationship between Earth and the moon. I will not develop any of that mathematics here. I will concentrate instead on reviewing the history of the scientific efforts to understand the Earth-moon tidal system. Along the way I will make reference to numerous original sources, books, journal papers and the like. Those sources will provide the reader with all of the mathematical and/or physical details one could wish to see. Readers eager to know more are encouraged to consult those sources.
It was not possible to study tides in any quantitative, physical or mathematical sense, until Isaac Newton essentially invented the science of mechanics, with the publication of his Philosophiae Naturalis Principia Mathematica in 1687. Since then a number of eminent scientists have struggled with the problem of tides, including Edmond Halley, Pierre Laplace, and William Thomson (Lord Kelvin). But it was the celebrated English mathematician and geophysicst George Howard Darwin Who really attacked the problem of Earth's rotation and the Earth-moon system with analytical zeal (G.H.Darwin; 1877, 1879, 1880; with an ironic twist on the creation-evolution issue, he was the son of Charles Darwin, the founding father of biological evolution). Darwin considered ocean tides, and made some significant advances there, but he concentrated mostly on solid body tides in a homogenous Earth. Today we know that ocean tides are much more important than solid body tides. Thomson was the first to show that tides transferred angular momentum from Earth to the moon, and that transfer of momentum is what causes the moon to recede from Earth. But Darwin was the first to cast the problem into analytical detail, setting the stage for explorations in the early 20th century.
Through most of the first couple of decades of the 20th century, the chief investigator of this problem was Harold Jeffreys. Jefferies published a number of papers during the early 1900's, and extensively summarized the then current state of affairs in the first edition of his landmark book The Earth (Jefferys, 1924). In that book (chapter XIV, Tidal Friction, pp 205-237 of the 1st edition) Jeffreys uses an estimate of tidal friction to derive a maximum age for the Earth-moon system of 4 billion years. That estimated age remained unchanged in later editions at least through 1952. The main problem that vexed Jeffreys, and later researchers, was their inability to fully describe ocean tides analytically, or even to know the numerical values of oceanic tidal friction. But it is quite clear that by then, about 44 years after Darwin's work, Jeffreys knew that oceanic tides were more important than solid body tides. The search for oceanic tidal response functions was on.
Later researchers came to the conclusion that Jeffreys had rather severely underestimated the true numerical value for oceanic tidal dissipation, and had therefore overestimated the age of the Earth-moon system. Although they do not offer an age, Munk & McDonald (1960) said that Jeffreys had the oceanic dissipation wrong by a factor of 100. It soon became apparent that the pendulum had swung the other way, and that there was a fundamental problem. Slichter (1963) reanalyzed the Earth-moon torque by devising a new way to use the entire ellipsoid of Earth rather than treating it as a series of approximations. He decided that, depending on the specifics of the model, the moon would have started out very close to Earth anywhere from 1.4 billion to 2.3 billion years ago, rather than 4.5 billion years ago. Slichter remarked that if "for some unknown reason" the tidal torque was much less in the past than in the present (where "present" means roughly the last 100 million years), this would solve the problem. But he could not supply the reason, and concluded his paper by saying that the time scale of the Earth-moon system "still presents a major problem"; I call this "Slichter's dilemma".
Despite the effort expended on the problem over the years, a truly complete mathematical method for handling the tidal dissipation had not yet been forthcoming. That problem was redefined by Peter Goldreich. Goldreich (1966) extended the realm of the problem well beyond the limits that Slichter had set, as Goldreich had included solar tides and precessional torques. However, the age of the system being dependent on observed quantities, and arbitrary factors in the model, Goldreich did not approach the question of age.
The years that followed saw the rise of plate tectonics and a major shift in geophysical thinking because of it. The mobility of the drifting continents is a matter of major import, for by this time it was well realized that tidal dissipation in shallow seas dominated the interaction between Earth and the moon. Kurt Lambeck was a major player in the tidal game at that time, authoring several papers. His study of the variable rotation of Earth (Lambeck, 1980) remains the most extensive such study ever done. Lambeck noted that after the struggles of Slichter, Goldreich, and others, the observed and modeled values for tidal dissipation were finally in agreement (Lambeck, 1980, page 286). However, this still left a time scale problem. According to Lambeck, " ... unless the present estimates for the accelerations are vastly in error, only a variable energy sink can solve the time-scale problem and the only energy sink that can vary significantly with time is the ocean." (Lambeck, 1980, page 288). In section 11.4, "Paleorotation and the lunar orbit", Lambeck explicitly points out that paleontological evidence shows a much slower lunar acceleration in the past, and that this is compatible with the models for continental spreading from Pangea (Lambeck, 1980, pages 388-394). It is important to remember that by 1980, Lambeck had pointed out the essential solution to Slichter's dilemma - moving continents have a strong effect on tidal dissipation in shallow seas, which in turn dominate the tidal relationship between Earth and the moon.
While Lambeck pointed the way, Kirk Hansen (1982) got on the right road. Hansen's models assumed an Earth with one single continent, placed at the pole for one set of models, and at the equator for another (the location is chosen to simplify the computations, but the basic idea of a one-continent Earth may not be all that bad; Piper, 1982 suggests that our current multi-continent Earth is actually abnormal, and that one continent is the norm). His continent doesn't move around as a model of plate tectonics would do it, but Hansen was the first to make a fully integrated model for oceanic tidal dissipation directly linked to the evolution of the lunar orbit. As Hansen says, his results are in "sharp contrast" with earlier models, putting the moon at quite a comfortable distance from Earth 4.5 billion years ago.
Hansen had already all but eliminated Slichter's dilemma with his integrated model of continents and tides. Kagan & Maslova (1994) treat the oceanic tidal dissipation with fully mobile and arbitrary continents. Like Hansen, their models show time scales that are not a problem for matching the radiometric age of Earth with the dynamic age of the Earth-moon system. Kagan & Maslova (1994), Kagan (1997), and Ray, Bills & Chao (1999) have continued the study in even more detail, with plate tectonics fully integrated into their models of Earth-moon tidal evolution. Touma & Wisdom (1994) do the calculation in a fully integrated multi-planet chaotically evolving solar system.
Although it may seem to the casual reader that the Earth-moon system is fairly simple (after all, it's just Earth and the moon), this is only an illusion. In fact, it is frightfully complicated, and it has taken over 100 years for physicists to generate the mathematical tools, and physical models, necessary to understand the problem. Slichter's dilemma, as I called it, was a theoretical one. He lacked the mathematical tools, and the observational knowledge, to solve his problem. But those who came after got the job done. Slichter's dilemma is today, essentially a solved problem. Once all of the details are included in the physical models of the Earth-moon system, we can see that there is no fundamental conflict between the basic physics and an evolutionary time scale for the Earth-moon system.
The Paleontological Evidence

I have thus far illuminated the theory, the construction of the mathematical methods used to understand the details of the Earth-moon tidal interaction. But theory and observation, theory and evidence go hand in hand in the empirical sciences, and this is no exception. Tides, and the Earth's rotation leave behind tell-tale clues about Earth's past. So, when Lambeck (1980) or Stacey (1977) say that tidal dissipation must have been lower in the past, that's neither an idle guess, nor a knee-jerk reaction. It is an attitude consistent the evidence.
The first critical observation is How fast is the moon moving away from Earth now? This linear motion away from Earth had to be estimated from the observed angular acceleration, or it had to be calculated from theory, the former being preferred, since it is an observed quantity. Stacey uses an astronomical estimate of 5.6 cm/year (Stacey, 1977, page 99). Lambeck gives 4.5 cm/year (Lambeck, 1980, page 298). It's an important number, because it reveals the true strength of tidal dissipation. But today the number can be observed directly, as a result of three-corner mirrors left behind by Apollo astronauts. Lunar laser ranging establishes the current rate of retreat of the moon from Earth at 3.82±0.07 cm/year (Dickey et al., 1994).
But what about the past rate of retreat? Paleontological data directly reveals the periodicity of the tides, from which one can derive what the rate of retreat would be to match the frequency. It is also a non-trivial point that it proves the moon was physically there. After all, if your theory implies that the moon was not there at some time in the past, but your observed tidal evidence says that it was there in the past, then it's pretty clear that the theory, and not the observation, needs to be adjusted.
This paleontological evidence comes in the form of tidal rhythmites, also known as tidally laminated sediments. Rhythmites have been subjected to intense scrutiny over the last decade or so, and have returned strong results. Williams (1990) reports that 650 million years ago, the lunar rate of retreat was 1.95±0.29 cm/year, and that over the period from 2.5 billion to 650 million years ago, the mean recession rate was 1.27 cm/year. Williams reanalyzed the same data set later (Williams, 1997), showing a mean recession rate of 2.16 cm/year in the period between now and 650 million years ago. That these kinds of data are reliable is demonstrated by Archer (1996). There is also a very good review of the earlier paleontological evidence by Lambeck (1980, chapter 11, paleorotation)
As you can see, the paleontological evidence indicates that moon today is retreating from Earth anomalously rapidly. This is exactly as expected from the theoretical models that I have already referenced. The combination of consistent results from both theoretical models and paleontological evidence presents a pretty strong picture of the tidal evolution of the Earth-moon system. Bills & Ray (1999) give a good review of the current status of this harmony. Without realizing it, they have also explained well why the creationist arguments are unacceptable.
The Creationist Arguments

I don't know who first brought up the age of the Earth-moon system as a pro-creationist argument. But the first example I am aware of is Barnes (1982, 1984). Barnes says, "It has been known for 25 years that the earth-moon system cannot be that old", and assuring us that "Celestial mechanics proves that the moon cannot be as old as 4.5 billion years", goes on to quote the last sentence from Slichter's (1963) paper, "The time scale of the earth-moon system still presents a major problem" (in fact, Barnes should not have capitalized the "T" since this is a sentence fragment, not a full sentence, but in this case the oversight is inconsequential). It is noteworthy that Barnes is happy to quote a paper already 19 years old in 1982, and 21 years old in 1984, yet despite a research physics background, declines to bother researching anything post-Slichter. If he had, he would have found Lambeck (1980), a major work which clearly indicated the real nature of Slichter's dilemma (or even Stacey, 1977, which already showed the conflict between Slichter's theoretical dilemma and the paleontological evidence available at the time). And, of course, Kirk Hansen's 1982 paper predates Barnes' 1984 reiteration by two years, yet is ignored despite being recognized even then as a major step forward. Barnes shows the same kind of sloppy and lazy approach to "research" that permeates young-Earth creationism, although his is a particularly egregious case (as it also was for his arguments concerning Earth's magnetic field).
DeYoung (1992) offers his own model. Actually, he offers an equation. DeYoung asserts that the rate of change of the lunar distance as a function of time must be proportional to the inverse 6th power of the lunar distance (presumably because the lunar tidal amplitude is proportional to the inverse cube of the distance, and the tidal acceleration is proportional to the square of the amplitude, though DeYoung does not say this). He then runs some numbers in the equation, and concludes with remarkable poise that he has demonstrated a maximum possible tidal age for the Earth-moon system of 1.4 billion years. The same calculation can be found in Stacey (1977), with reference to more precise versions. They all get about the same answer as DeYoung, and there is no doubt but that what DeYoung did he did right. However, if you do the "wrong" problem, you may not get the "right" answer! As Stacey pointed out (Stacey, 1977, pages 102-103) it makes more sense to assume that the oceanic tidal dissipation was smaller in the past, which would have the effect of making the calculation that of a minimum age, as opposed to the maximum age proposed by DeYoung. But, of course, we are comparing DeYoung (1992) with Stacey (1977), a gap of 15 years (it's nice to see that DeYoung, like Barnes, is keeping up with the tempo of current research). That gap includes Lambeck (1980) and Hansen (1982) (wherein it was demonstrated that a 4.5 billion years age was compatible). Granted that DeYoung (1992) wrote before the 1994 papers of Kagan & Maslova or Touma & Wisdom, which are directly contradictory to his results. However, Hansen's (1980) results also directly contradict DeYoung, but come 12 years before. This observation does not inspire confidence in the value of DeYoung's one-equation model for the evolution of the lunar orbit. But, as made clear by Bills & Ray (1999), the constant of proportionality, which Stacey suggests is not constant, is in fact a ratio of factors that represent dissipation, and deformation. It is clear that neither of these can be constant, and once that is understood, we can see clearly that DeYoung simply did the wrong thing right, and curiously wound up with a correct form of the wrong answer.
Walter Brown (Brown, 1995) presents essentially the same model as DeYoung. I have seen only the online technical note, but not the printed book. Unfortunate, for the equations do not appear on the webpage, despite being referenced as if they were there. However, Brown does offer the quick-Basic source code for his program that calculates the minimum age of the Earth-moon system. His equations are there, and he seems to be using the inverse 5.5 power of the radius rather than the inverse 6th power used by DeYoung (Brown's usage here is consistent with the equation given by Bills & Ray, 1999; whether one chooses to use the inverse 6 or inverse 5.5 power seems an issue of model dependence). Otherwise, Brown's approach appears to be quite the same as DeYoung's, and subject to exactly the same criticism. He ignores the time variability of dissipation and deformation. It is perhaps humorously ironic that both DeYoung and Brown fail, because they are implicitly making an improper uniformitarian assumption (the constancy of dissipation and deformation), which evolutionists have learned to avoid.
Conclusions

I don't know if there are other, "authoritative" creationist sources for the "speedy moon" argument. But if there are, it is unlikely that their arguments presented differ much from those seen here. I spent quite a bit more time reviewing the actual science of the Earth-moon tidal interaction because once it is well developed, the flaw in the creationist arguments becomes so obvious that it hardly seems necessary to refute them. The most remarkable aspect of this, I think, is the somebody like DeYoung, who certainly has legitimate qualifications (a PhD in physics from Iowa State University), would offer up such a one-equation model as if it was actually definitive. That kind of thing works as a "back-of-the-envelope" calculation, to get the order of magnitude, or a first approximation for the right answer, but it should have been clear to an unbiased observer that it could never be a legitimate realistic model. It is also of considerable interest that both DeYoung and Brown published their refutations of evolution only after evolution had already refuted their refutations! Barnes didn't do all that much better, having overlooked Hansen (1982) for two years. My own conclusion is that my intuitive expectations have been fulfilled, and creation "science" has lived up to its reputation of being either pre-falsified, or easy to falsify once the argument is evident.
As for the real science, remember that science is not a static pursuit, and the Earth-moon tidal evolution is not an entirely solved system. There is a lot that we know, and we do know a lot more than we did even 20 years ago. But even if we don't know everything, there are still some arguments which we can definitely rule out. A 10,000 year age (or anything like it) definitely falls in that category, and can be ruled out both by theory and practice.
 
And before you start whining about how your post was only 5 minutes old and how could I have taken the time to read your argument blah blah blah, I've seen it before. Unlike you, I actually have researched both sides of this argument, and I've researched them well, which is why there isn't a single YEC argument that you can post that I can't completely and utterly refute in less than 5 minutes flat. Your young moon argument is typical of creationist "research" and tactics, full of cherry picked examples, mathematical mistakes and just plain nonsense. Nothing new to see here folks, move along.
 
It's not always a great idea to use absolutes, like "completely" for anything. You'll note that in my post I was careful to say that "cetain examples" of religion would be better than a scientific technocracy. So my counterpoint is as follows: Few religions consistently take their books and interpret them literally. Science however does. It's meant to be taken that way. Furthermore not all religions have the same rules. For example according to Wikipedia, the Unitarians ( a Christian offshoot ) have, "liberal views of God, Jesus, the world and purpose of life as revealed through reason, scholarship, science, philosophy, scripture and other prophets and religions. They believe that reason and belief are complementary and that religion and science can co-exist and guide them in their understanding of nature and God. They also do not enforce belief in creeds or dogmatic formulas." This particular example pretty much wipes out your major objections, and there are probably more examples as well.

Funny you should bring that religion up Ufology. I am one of the founders of the Yadkin Valley Unitarian Universalist Fellowship. The roots of UU may be heavily influenced by Christianity, but todays UU is all encompassing. And it is a seperate entity from Unitarianism.
There are seven principles which Unitarian Universalist congregations affirm and promote:
  • The inherent worth and dignity of every person;
  • Justice, equity and compassion in human relations;
  • Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our congregations;
  • A free and responsible search for truth and meaning;
  • The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our congregations and in society at large;
  • The goal of world community with peace, liberty, and justice for all;
  • Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part.
What drew me to UU was the freedom to explore spirituality using gnosticism and inner exploration....not dogmatic religious restrictions.

I'm not trying to prosylitize or convert anyone, just passing along info on Unitarian Universalists.
 
Also, Starise, if you're going to debate something than you have to take a position. You keep saying that you're open to creation being much older but then you keep posting young earth creationism evidence and arguments. This is a common tactic with people like yourself, you want to be able to move the goalposts whenever you feel like it so that once we've debunked the idea that the earth is young (and we have, quite thoroughly) you can just say "well I don't believe that anyway nyah nyah nyah" Your tactics are about as childish as your world view. Two words I would use to describe you are: See Through.

Also, if you're going to leave, then see ya, you don't really bring anything to the table anyway, other than "I'm Starise and I know I'm right because I know I'm right" Your attempt to explain viral processes without using evolution was as hilarious as it was ridiculous. Don't let reality hit you on the rear on your way out. If the truth is coming soon you could always come back and rub our non believing noses in it, but better men than you have said that the "truth" is coming and all of them died without ever seeing this so called "truth" come to fruition. What makes you think things will be different in your case?
 
Funny you should bring that religion up Ufology. I am one of the founders of the Yadkin Valley Unitarian Universalist Fellowship. The roots of UU may be heavily influenced by Christianity, but todays UU is all encompassing. And it is a seperate entity from Unitarianism.
There are seven principles which Unitarian Universalist congregations affirm and promote:
  • The inherent worth and dignity of every person;
  • Justice, equity and compassion in human relations;
  • Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our congregations;
  • A free and responsible search for truth and meaning;
  • The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our congregations and in society at large;
  • The goal of world community with peace, liberty, and justice for all;
  • Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part.
What drew me to UU was the freedom to explore spirituality using gnosticism and inner exploration....not dogmatic religious restrictions.

I'm not trying to prosylitize or convert anyone, just passing along info on Unitarian Universalists.

These are excellent principles, I wish there were more open minded religious people like yourself. I'm sure there are many such people I just wish they were the majority and not the minority that they appear to be, at least as far as the internet is concerned. That's typical with a lot of topics on the web anyway, it's the extremist groups, whether they be religious or atheists that tend to make the most noise. What's the response been like to Unitarianism as a whole from both moderate and fundamentalist Christians? I'm not trying to start a debate or anything, just genuinely curious.
 
Mike I read your comments on neanderthal man regarding men as meat eaters . I would counter that the very basis for neanderthal man is not a good foundation to build on in light of the facts we have on it , neither from a dating perspective or from a reality check perspective.
Neanderthal Man Does Not Support Evolution

Maudib I am getting pretty comfortable with your regular insults here. Actually I have come to expect it of you and this time my expectations were right on the mark. Your tactics are also well noted. Here is my response to the young moon theory- The Moon is Still Young



I have said and it has been ignored by at least a few of you here that I allow for the possibility of an older earth based on Gen 1:1 and my belief that the span from when the earth was merely a formless lump to the first created day could have been a very long time because depending on how you read this. But you were so busy trying to disprove me that you must have missed that little bit of info,or is it that then you might have to admit to a created universe because the view actually accomidates yours to a small extent.I think science and creation go hand in hand....but what we are getting now isn't science it is ideology and agenda.

Renaissance Lady I read your post.....3 times so that I would get it all. You did a good job of sorting the various viruses here and in describing how they work and change. You are laying the burden of proof on me to prove that this isn't evolution. In addition to this I am supposed to scientifically document my position on , The Biblical flood, Creation of the world, the age of the universe....and now how viruses produce and mutate. All of these are gargatuan in and of themselves let alone all of them and on my spare time, lol. Anything less from me is viewed as evasive.

I appreciate that you took time from your busy schedule to post the information. I wear a lot of hats and so I'm not exaggerating that I have little time.I probably shouldn't even be here because of my lack of time.It's not like this place is full of my buds. I knew Muadib would jump on this one,and you know what? That's ok.

I'll give you my take on the whole virus/evolution thing. I think certain terms are used loosely to prove certain things within a context that stretches the term itself. Yes we can certainly see these changes on a yearly basis. The question is do these observed changes explain all of the theory of evolution? You would say yes. I would say no. I think it shows an incredible resiliance of the organisms to adapt. That seems to be the end of it though in terms of what I consider to be evolution.

Since I believe that Adam and Eve were at one time immortal until their fall something happened that caused them to move from an immortal body to a mortal body. There was a marked change in either their physiology, the environment, or both. I tend to think the creator made our bodies less resiliant to bacteria but He may have also made bacteria more hardy. No matter how you look at it our physical bodies are going to a grave one day and there are millions of bugs out there capable of making that happen.

Lets face it, I didn't think I was going to come here and get a warm reception or comments like, " I think you were right after all" and If you think I am going to say something like, Maudib thanks for showing me the light,never looked at things that way".,you may need to wait a long time.... Your position that anyone who isn't buying into it all is a moron is just one more fabrication to add to all of the other fabrications.

If it makes you all feel better to post anti-Christian vids and tons of "supposed" evidence that attempt to make anyone holding another view look like they have the short end of the stick let me suggest that all the vids and cute little pics in the world won't change the truth for what it really is and that will all be coming out soon enough.

I think it would kill some of you to admit that there might be support for creation and that the argument actually favors creation over DNA just "happening".

Evolution is part of a much larger agenda. This is the only reason that it is so well defended,even if much of it makes no scientific sense at all.





stupid_meter.gif



Really is this what you believe?

I would have joined in to take you to task for that post but Maudib has done it so well that this is all I am going to add.

Education its a good idea.
 
Another meat eating sub species

New fossils discovered on an Indonesian island further point to the existence of a separate species of “Hobbit humans,” Discovery reported on Thursday.
“The tiny people from Flores were not simply diseased modern humans,” said the lead author on the findings, Caley Orr. “The new species of human stood approximately 3′ 6″ tall, giving it its nickname ‘The Hobbit.’”
As detailed in his team’s paper in the Journal of Human Evolution, the team discovered wrist bones similar to other bones found on the island, which Orr’s team dispels the idea that Homo floresiensis, as they have dubbed the new species, didn’t exist.
Based on their findings, Orr and his team said these “Hobbits” may be descendants of a group of Homo erectus that were stranded on the island. They walked on two legs and had relatively long feet — another Tolkienesque trait — with sloping forearms, and arms longer than their legs. Their presumed IQ was comparable to that of a chimpanzee.
Researchers also found evidence that the tiny humans were meat-eaters who were able to make fire and use stone tools, a particularly interesting clue, said paleoanthropologist Tracy Kivell, who has studied them for the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology. For them to be apparently capable of that, he said, suggests that “Homo floresiensis solved the morphological and manipulative demands of tool-making and tool-use in a different way than Neanderthals and ourselves.”
ScienceDirect.com - Journal of Human Evolution - New wrist bones of Homo floresiensis from Liang Bua (Flores, Indonesia)

This hominin is remarkable for its small body and brain and for its survival until relatively recent times (possibly as recently as 12,000 years ago).[3] Recovered alongside the skeletal remains were stone tools from archaeological horizons ranging from 94,000 to 13,000 years ago.

The fossil and DNA evidence is real.

The minimum widely-accepted timeframe for the arrival of humans in Australia is placed at least 40,000 years ago.[2] Many sites dating from this time period have been excavated.
In Arnhem Land the Malakunanja II rock shelter "has been dated to around 55,000 years old".[3]
Archaeological evidence indicates human habitation at the upper Swan River, Western Australia by about 40,000 years ago

How can we have evidence of human habitation in Australia dating back to at least 40,000 years if the bible is true.
There are mountains of evidence supporting this fact.

How could the chinese, arab,caucasian,aboriginal,negro,indian geno type have all sprung from noahs line in just a few thousand years ?

What an absurd notion.

How do we reconcile the fact of 40,000 years of aboriginal existance with the bibles version of the facts ?
If god had written it, you'd think he'd have known about the aborginal, how did they survive the flood ?

The answer is pretty self evident, the "men" who wrote the bible had no idea australia existed let alone was inhabited, and their ignorance of this is clearly reflected in the "story" of the flood and indeed genesis.
The Australian aboriginal is living proof the bible is the word of ignorant men, not an all seeing god

But of course the answer from starrise will be the same old rubbish

Satans tricks

Fossils ?
Satan put them there to confuse and mislead us


all the vids and cute little pics Facts in the world won't change the truth for what it really is and that will all be coming out soon enough.

Oh great another harold camping prophesising the end times.......

Heres a prophecy that will come true....... Its not going to happen, you'll die disappointed on this one
 
Oh great another harold camping prophesising the end times.......

Heres a prophecy that will come true....... Its not going to happen, you'll die disappointed on this one

So we have two frankly psychotic claims by Starise, one that some of us are part of some ruse involving UFO's and in league with the devil and two that the world is going to end soon and the "truth" will be known. How does he know? Because he knows. Yeah, he's not crazy at all. I've said it before and I'll say it again, I hope he gets the psychiatric help he so clearly needs. You should avoid this site Starise, take that time and spend it with a shrink, it might do you some good.
 
These are excellent principles, I wish there were more open minded religious people like yourself. I'm sure there are many such people I just wish they were the majority and not the minority that they appear to be, at least as far as the internet is concerned. That's typical with a lot of topics on the web anyway, it's the extremist groups, whether they be religious or atheists that tend to make the most noise. What's the response been like to Unitarianism as a whole from both moderate and fundamentalist Christians? I'm not trying to start a debate or anything, just genuinely curious.

The UU's are considered a cult in this area, but so is the Catholic church. Fundamentalist Christianity in various denominations is by far the most prevailing religion here. It's very difficult at times to live here when most people think "If you ain't Christian, you a Devil worshipper boy".
 
The UU's are considered a cult in this area, but so is the Catholic church. Fundamentalist Christianity in various denominations is by far the most prevailing religion here. It's very difficult at times to live here when most people think "If you ain't Christian, you a Devil worshipper boy".

I figured as much when it comes to the fundies, though how anyone could look at the principles you listed and equate them with devil worship is beyond me. Just another example of how close minded and ridiculous the fundies are. Just out of curiosity whereabouts are you from? You don't have to get specific, I'm just curious as to the general area.
 
I was actually born right here in western North Carolina, but I retired from the Army and traveling the world tends to open your eyes.

I imagine it does, North Carolina is a beautiful state, I used to vacation around the Cape Hatteras area every couple of years, I may actually head back out there later this year for a week or two, I haven't made up my mind yet though.
 
Muadib, hey man that stuff your smokin' there is really starting to wrinkle you up lol.They say your ears and nose never stop growing and this is proof of that fact ;-P.....

FWIW I don't see this as anything but a comparison of ideas and I enjoy looking at different positions on almost any subject. I think the thing that made me throw up a red flag concerning you immediately is that you THINK you are always right about everything. If anyone comes to you and proposes to know everything I say look out! The only real problem with this is that you base your info on a sliding scale. The CTRL+C and CTRL+V stuff you posted here on the moon shows a trend in the science we have on the moon. There were discoveries and there were other discoveries to supercede those discoveries by the guys you follow. This shows us that things are changing with what we think we know on the moon and the universe in general. The next time some more data changes will you be changing your position? The same thing is true of all the dating techniques we have now. Each itineration of them has been thought to be correct until the next revelation that things were not what we thought they were.....and this is science in a nutshell.I am thankful we have science but it can be hit or miss.

Honestly past my belief that the universe and all in it is created I don't yet have a concrete viewpoint on its exact age. This isn't because I want to move a goal post, it is because I am not really convinced either way yet. I posted an alternate view on it because I tend to believe in a younger moon based on the facts as presented. FYI the creationist info you posted here is an older position that has been modified in some circles. No it doesn't agree with you but it is an updated perspective, you see believe it or not most creationists/young earth also use real science to get to their positions .There are old earth creationists and young earth creationists. The latter believe in a literal 6 days of creation and old earth creationists believe in the 6 days not being literal 24 hour time spans. My opinion on it is still out pending me getting more information.

There are differing views within the creationists on how old the moon is and how old the universe is just as there are discrepancies on views within the evolutionist community.

So I'm not out to out talk you, out think you, out anything you........I maintain my position which I feel is grounded on a solid footing with respect to the science we have now. My positon is that God created the earth and everything in it. That we are not evolved from apes.

I'm not sure where you got the idea that I wanted to leave here. I'm having too much fun debating you guys!

Stonehart-Grow up....you live in a world where lots of people have lots of different views on any given subject. Not everyone will agree with you on all of them. The funny thing about what I wrote is that depending on the terminology of RLadys post I agree with her on what is happening concerning viruses. I think I use different words and descriptions to say some of the same things. The main place we part ways is to answer the question- Did we come from Apes based on the info she showed? I would say no.

mike said:
Oh great another harold camping prophesising the end times.......

Heres a prophecy that will come true....... Its not going to happen, you'll die disappointed on this one​
So we have two frankly psychotic claims by Starise, one that some of us are part of some ruse involving UFO's and in league with the devil and two that the world is going to end soon and the "truth" will be known. How does he know? Because he knows. Yeah, he's not crazy at all. I've said it before and I'll say it again, I hope he gets the psychiatric help he so clearly needs. You should avoid this site Starise, take that time and spend it with a shrink, it might do you some good.


This is classic Muadib bufoonery.......I never said anything like this. What I said was I would not be surprised if there were not people here involved in the UFO deception. I never said I believed it to be a fact. I never directly accused anyone. It has already been said here from others that there could possibly be Govt. people who know more than we do about UFOs patrolling this board. I am not going to rule out that possibility. I don't think that there are many people out there who would KNOWINGLY be involved with the devil. I know there are some, but for the most part people get involved with things they don't understand or may be misrepresented to them. They call a deception a deception for a good reason...

Mike- Amazing find there. I am not surprised by the size of these early humans. Genetic variation and isolation would explain the height of these humans.

Proffessor Marvin Lubinow :
The island of Flores, Indonesia, was the discovery site of fossil adult humans just three feet tall with a cranial capacity of about 380 cubic centimeters. Their scientific name is Homo floresiensis. However, they have been nicknamed “hobbits,” after the stars of the Lord of the Rings saga by Tolkien.
The discoverers, reporting in Nature in 2004, claimed that these fossils represented a new human species. Stone tools were associated with the fossils, and there was evidence both of hunting and of the controlled use of fire. The estimated number of fossil individuals is nine, and the estimated dates of these fossils range from 12,000 years to 95,000 years ago.
Ever since their discovery, these fossils have been the center of intense controversy. In contrast to the discoverers’ claim that these fossils represent a new human species, a second theory gaining popularity is that these fossils do not represent a new human species but instead were dwarfs or pigmies possibly suffering from microcephaly, having abnormally small bodies and brains.
This debate’s newest study, led by Dean Falk (Florida State University), was just published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. The study was based upon casts and computer reconstructions of the one hobbit fossil skull available (brains do not fossilize) compared to nine microcephalic brains and ten normal human brains. Falk and her team claim that the hobbit skull indicates that its brain does not resemble the microcephalics, but instead resembles normal human brains. Thus, they conclude that the hobbits do represent a new human species.
However, the study has been criticized by other scientists for the following reasons: (1) it is not wise to base an interpretation on just one sample. More hobbit fossils are needed to settle the matter; (2) Ralph Holloway (Columbia University) states that although the hobbit skull may not have microcephalic morphology (shape), it does seem to indicate other brain abnormalities; (3) another researcher states that the size sample in the study was too small. It should have had at least thirty specimens for comparison, including some aboriginal peoples (pigmies) living in the region where the hobbit was found; and (4) since the one hobbit skull available for study was an adult, the study should not have had five microcephalic children among the nine microcephalics used for comparison (Science, 2 February 2007, p. 583).
There is confusion in understanding the true nature of these hobbit fossils results when Dr. Falk claims that “... it represents another species of Homo” (Science, 2 February 2007, p. 583). What does that mean? Falk and other evolutionists seldom tell us. The problem is that the current evolutionary definition of species is different from what most people, using common sense, would expect it to be. Hence Falk’s statement is mystifying to readers. Let me illustrate.
Let’s assume that we have solved the necessary technological problems, and that we have been able to establish a community of thousands of people living on the moon. Space vehicles continually travel back and forth carrying both supplies and humans. Obviously, since those people on the moon all came from earth, they belong to the very same species as we do here on earth—Homo sapiens sapiens.
Now, let’s suppose that, for some reason, all future space travel between the earth and the moon becomes impossible. There is no longer any genetic interchange between the people on the earth and the people on the moon. Because the people on the moon would be a self-contained breeding population independent from us, they would be considered a new species according to the evolutionary definition of the term. It does not matter that their DNA would be indistinguishable from ours. Because the earth people and the moon people would be two independent breeding populations, they could be classified by evolutionists as two separate species.
Closer to home is the case of two squirrel populations at Grand Canyon, Arizona—one population on the north rim of the canyon, the other population on the south rim. If placed together, these two populations could readily interbreed. However, the Grand Canyon presents a barrier impossible for either population to cross. Hence they are classified as two different species. The assumption by evolutionists is that since each population of squirrels will experience different mutations and will have different selection pressures over many tens of thousands of years, the time will come when they will be different enough so that they would not be able to interbreed even if they were placed together. Genetic isolation because of geographic isolation is one way evolutionists believe that new species are created.
This is what Falk and her associates believe happened to the hobbits.
Previous studies had concluded that the hobbits were humans like us but with severe brain deformities. Falk’s study contradicts the former studies. Falk’s group claims that the hobbit brain fell neatly into the normal human group used for comparison, not with the microcephalic sample. However, because the hobbits are so very small in both body and brain, Falk says that they must be a new human species. Their being on an Indonesian island, isolated from all other humans on earth, resulted in their evolving into a new human species.
It should be obvious that Falk and her team, based upon their theory of how species are created, are “creating” this new human species. Even if evolution were true, the island of Flores is too small to have maintained an isolated population for long enough to allow the evolution of a new species, say researchers at Pennsylvania State University (NewScientist, 26 August 2006, p. 7).
The Bible does not use the word “species.” It is a word in the scientific vocabulary that does not adequately describe life as God created it. The word “species” has a very different meaning from the Genesis word “kind.” Regarding humans, God created one man, Adam. From Adam, God created Eve. From this pair, all humans have descended—mankind or humankind. Paul states: “From one man he [God] made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth ...” (Acts 17:26).
The fact that Falk and her team, using a humanistic philosophy, call the hobbits “another species of Homo” is meaningless. Evolutionists cannot prove that the hobbits were unable to reproduce with Homo sapiens, and interfertility is the basis for true biological relationships according to the Bible. Whether or not the hobbits were pathological or geographically isolated does not make them any less human. God made only one kind of human.
Help keep these daily articles coming.
As I was saying to Muadib, science seems to be in a constant state of flux....This one story alone generated a lot of heated debate among fellow scientists. The have been revisions to the revisons on this, and this fully excludes anyone who is creationist. Time and time again I am presented with what is supposed to be concrete evidence and it turns out to be refuted. I'm not doubting they found small humans there...but after reading all of the debate on this how much of it can be taken as real solid evidence?

exo_doc- I am glad you found a place that you like, I am having a hard time believing that you were actually accused of being a devil worshipper if you weren't a Christian by the people there. I am very familiar with the deep south and the people where I was would never level an accusation at you like that.

Same old same old here- Make a doofus off base caricature of a group of good well meaning people( for the most part) and then blast it for a cheap laugh.Cherry pick your examples and ignore all the others...It won't work with me, sorry. It doesn't really bother me, just want to let you know I'm on to you.
 
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