Gareth
Nothin' to see here
Well it clearly has some meaning in the organisation.
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Well it clearly has some meaning in the organisation.
jratcliff
Skilled Investigator
Well, the only meaning I'm aware of is that there are a maximum of 33 degrees in Scottish Rite Freemasonry; just one of numerous branches of Freemasonry each of which have varying numbers of degrees. There are a base set of 32 degrees that anyone can acquire in the Scottish Rite and the 33rd degree is honorary and only conferred to those individuals who have given exceptional service over the years.
Probably the most significant number in Freemasonry is three, as there are 3 degrees in Blue Lodge, or craft Masonry. We also allude to the three great lights in Freemasonry (The volume of sacred law, the square, and the compass) and the three lesser lights which are the Sun, the Moon, and the Worshipful Master; represented by three lights in triangular form.
There are other appendant bodies in Freemasonry which have a varying number of degrees in them.
I'm just not, personally, one of those guys who obsesses about numbers. If you pick a number, and it doesn't really matter what it is (23, 33, 42) you will start seeing it everywhere and start assigning significance to it.
The guest on this program, Walter Bosely, had really only one interesting story that I wanted to hear more about. His claim that his father saw bodies and debris from Roswell was what peaked my curiosity. While we have no way to get any proof of this story, Mr. Bosley certainly sounded sincere at least. If his father really revealed this story to him, I for one, am very interested in hearing the whole thing, and in as much detail as absolutely possible.,
What I want to know is, were the bodies small? Did they have somewhat larger heads? How about their eyes, ears, nose, and mouth? How many digits on their hands and feet? Did they look like Nazis? Was his story written down at the time he gave it?
I know Mr. Bosley mentioned an article he had published in the past. Has that article ever been made available online? I would certainly want to read it.
I was a little less interested in his esoteric beliefs and personal experiences because they seemed far less concrete.
And, while I know he cannot violate his oath of secrecy, I have some questions.
Yes, I know all about how military secrets can be kept. I am not naive on that topic. My own brother works in the black and I don't know a damned thing about what he actually does at his job, nor will I ever know. I've got no problem with that.
The problem I have is this. Sure, you can keep a military project secret. I am far less convinced that you can keep fundamental properties of physics and nature secret.
To believe these stories of Nazi saucers or military aircraft which defy the known laws of physics, would mean you would have to believe that the most fundamental laws of physics have been violated with not a single clue having ever been revealed for over 80 years!!!!!! That is a tough nut to swallow.
Can we seriously believe that any form of 'anti-gravity' technology has existed back to the days of the Nazis? I find that a rather impossible to believe proposition.
There are no known laws of physics which can account for 'anti-gravity' and there are those who suggest that some of these technologies imply a violation of the conservation of energy and the second law of thermodynamics.
While military projects can be kept secret, I find it much harder to believe that the most fundamental and basic laws of physics can be kept secret. The scientific community, Phd candidates and individual researchers at large, do not make a great deal of money. Their reward is less monetary and more about getting credit for their discoveries. Science is an extremely open process. It involves peer review and publications in open journals. This is how science has always advanced and continues to be advanced today. Recall that even while the Manhattan project was kept secret, what wasn't secret was the fact that it was theoretically possible to create a bomb! That was widely known throughout the scientific community based on the work of Einstein and others, all published in open scientific journals.
While you will find websites that talk about 'anti-gravity' tech, the reality is it's all a bunch of crap. The concept of 'electro-gravitics' is false. An ionic flow is introduced when an extremely high voltage field is applied to something like the infamous 'lifters'; and those who first saw this effect initially proposed that what was being observed was 'anti-gravity'. We have since learned that what is happening is ionic thrust; and the effect completely disappears in the presence of a vacuum. It violates no known laws of physics and, while a cool toy, it is ultimately no more surprising than anything else that is lifted with conventional thrust.
An excellent place to understand the incredible 'will to believe' is if you hang around the various 'free-energy' websites on the internet. These sites (such as overunity.com) are populated with thousands of people who are convinced that free-energy exists, has been patented, and suppressed countless times over the years.
Some of the people involved in these forums are actually practicing engineers (though very few are actual physicists) who build hobby projects. It is the ultimate case of 'put up' or 'shut up'. They build device after device. Replicate patent after patent. And, guess what, none of them ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever... work. This has been going on not just for a few years, not just for decades, but actually for centuries.
It turns out that it is pretty difficult to violate the known laws of physics as described by Einstein. It's a hard nut to crack to violate the second law of thermodynamics.
So, color me skeptical of anyone who says 'we have done so in secret gummint projects' or by 'Nazi's back in the 30's'.
Here's what I do know.
I know that people see UFOs (i.e. flying saucers, physical disk shaped craft caught on radar and capable of leaving landing traces). I know that these flying craft do some pretty weird shit, and have been doing weird shit for a really long time. I know that their behavior and interaction with our culture is extraordinarily bizarre, and has been ongoing for a very long time.
So, my best guess, is that UFOs are *UNKNOWN*. They are not a product of some *PRIMITIVE* human technology discovered way back in the 1930's and not a single scientist has ever been able to re-discover the principle since.
That sounds absurd to me.
There needs to be more evidence than simply stories told and repeated. I've heard them all before and, no doubt, they make for some great stories around the campfire. Yep, Ben Rich said we had stuff that would blow our minds. Sure..and we get some random tales told by others. But, they are just that. STORIES! There is no scientific model, no small demonstration technology demo, that can account for any of these claims. Moreover, it is really absurd to suggest that such fundamental properties of physics were discovered 80 years ago by Nazi's yet not a single scientist has ever stumbled across it since and published in the scientific literature? Sure, the gummint can suppress an engineering project (i.e. a secret aircraft) but it cannot suppress raw science. Science operates in the public, in the open, and is truly international in scope. You can't suppress that kind of free thought, open inquiry, and mathematics. Since the 1930's we have advanced scientific knowledge a thousand fold, but you honestly believe that not one scientist, anywhere on the planet, has 'rediscovered' the physical principles behind these alleged secret Nazi technologies?!? Really!??
How come we don't have a single scientific model which could account for these claims? How come we are using massive chemical rockets to blast off into space if we have had anti-gravity figured out for 80 years?
Sorry, I just don't buy it.
Occam's razor says the simplest explanation is the most likely. The simplest explanation for flying saucers with anti-gravity technology is *not* Nazi's, it is *not* super-secret gummint aircraft, the simplest explanation is that it is something that is truly *unknown* and not the product of anything so mundane as 80 year old tech created by some Nazi scientists.
Look, we don't need any more stories about Nazi's and such. If there were any truth to them at all, it would mean that the UFO mystery could be solved at the drop of a hat. All it would take would be a single scientist or engineer to publish an equation or reproducible experiment which could demonstrate a scientific principle that is currently unknown.
Think about that? You are a scientist, and engineer, and you are working on secret gummint anti-gravity tech. Let's say this tech has been known and practiced for 80 years. And, not a single scientist or engineer would publish an equation, or an experiment, which could demonstrate this physical principle? Something so simple it could be accomplished with *80 year old* tech!??!
Forget about disclosure, or more stories. How about this. Don't violate your oath about any project you have ever worked on. Just post anonymously to, say, Wikileaks, an equation and/or simple reproducible experiment which demonstrates any of these technologies capable of violating the known laws of physics.
I can think of only a single rationale for not doing so. What if..just what if.. that this same technology could also be used as a weapon? If that were the case, then I might consider it justifiable to keep it secret. Other than that, though, I don't think it makes sense. And, even then, that certainly didn't stop any scientist from publishing the scientific theories which led to fission bomb, the fusion bomb, the neutron bomb, or any other fundamental principle of physics in the past.
But, just like the free-energy wishful thinkers at overunity.com, it doesn't happen, can't happen, never has happened, and never will happen because it's simply not possible.
John
Gene,
Great show! I am new to The Paracast and have come your way via my interest in Greg Bishop's writings. I have been following his work for years over at ufomystic and radiomisterioso. I am glad that both of you have gotten together in this awesome collaboration and expect many good shows with Greg as your co-host. I wish you much success!
For those forum members who seemed "turned off" to the show guest, Walter Bosley, I encourage you (as Gene has) to do a little research on him:
You can get more insight by checking out a free short preview of the book he mentioned on the show here:
http://www.lulu.com/product/file-do...gContext=search_results/search_shelf/center/1
And you can definitely get a better picture of him by listening to the radiomisterioso shows he co-hosts with Greg Bishop: (here's one from way back in 2004)
http://www.radiomisterioso.com/2008/12/15/the-lost-bill-moore-interviews-epsiode-1/
"<meta charset="utf-8">http://www.radiomisterioso.com/2009/06/25/ray-stanford-part-2/
"<meta charset="utf-8">
Great show! I am new to The Paracast and have come your way via my interest in Greg Bishop's writings. I have been following his work for years over at ufomystic and radiomisterioso. I am glad that both of you have gotten together in this awesome collaboration and expect many good shows with Greg as your co-host. I wish you much success!
For those forum members who seemed "turned off" to the show guest, Walter Bosley, I encourage you (as Gene has) to do a little research on him:
You can get more insight by checking out a free short preview of the book he mentioned on the show here:
http://www.lulu.com/product/file-do...gContext=search_results/search_shelf/center/1
And you can definitely get a better picture of him by listening to the radiomisterioso shows he co-hosts with Greg Bishop: (here's one from way back in 2004)
http://www.radiomisterioso.com/2008/12/15/the-lost-bill-moore-interviews-epsiode-1/
"<meta charset="utf-8">http://www.radiomisterioso.com/2009/06/25/ray-stanford-part-2/
"
My co-host (and former AFOSI agent) Walter Bosley gets into a heated debate with Stanford about the capabilities of the government to disinform researchers and efforts to cover up secret projects with UFO stories.
"
Kieran
Paranormal Adept
The're was a rumour that circulated in the 1936 that an unidentified craft came down in the black forests of Germany. That the Nazi Regime had captured this UFO; the craft was allleged to have been Extraterrestrial in origin and it was rumoured that Nazi Scientist's were trying to back engineer elements of the craft found. Hence this might explain the "Nazi Bell" and the photos of saucer shaped craft. I can neither confirm or deny the rumour.
P
Paul Kimball
Guest
The most ridiculous of all the UFO myths, and that's saying something, is the one that holds that the Nazis somehow engineered a flying saucer. There is absolutely NO evidence to support that claim, and it's safe to say that if they Nazis has developed that kind of advanced technology, they would have used it - just as they used all the other advanced technology that they reallt did develop (jets, V1, V2...).
This has never stopped neo-Nazis from using these stories to recruit gullible new followers - and no, I'm not saying that everyone who buys this stuff is a Neo-Nazi - just that you have to be aware of the subcurrents with stuff like this.
Here are a couple of things I've written in the past about the subject. The first demonstrates that in the years immediately after the war, as the Cold War was heating up, Western governments got some strange claims made to them about Nazis and flying saucers, and took them seriously enough to at least investigate.
http://redstarfilms.blogspot.com/2005/10/canada-and-flying-saucers-part-iii.html
Canada and the Flying Saucers, Part III (Enter the Nazis?) (from 23 August, 2005)
Rumours have existed for decades that the Germans, towards the end of the Second World War, were working on creating a flying saucer. Indeed, some fringe conspiracy theorists today maintain that the Germans actually made at least one, and got it to work (the follow-along contention often being that these projects were taken over by the Americans and / or Soviets after the war).
While there is no doubt that the Germans were working on advanced aircraft and missile design throughout the war, there has never been any credible evidence that the claims of "Nazi flying saucers" was anything other than a myth, in the purest sense of the term (i.e. not true). Anyone who tells you otherwise simply has no idea what they are talking about.
However, while we might know this now, things were much different back in the early 1950s. It was an era of heightened Cold War tension between the superpowers, but it was also an era of intense competition between the western allies, particularly the Anglo-American-Canadian triumvirate, for technological advances. Finally, the myriad reports of UFOs being seen around the world had gotten the attention of everyone - especially the Air Force, both in the United States, and in Canada.
So, when a German came forward and claimed that he had knowledge of a secret Nazi flying saucer program, the authorities, at least in Canada, took him seriously.
In the late spring of 1952, a German immigrant to Canada approached a former RCAF officer of his acquaintance, and told him that he had knowledge of German flying saucer design and production. The former officer reported this to the RCAF, which arranged an interview with the German. On 21 June, 1952, according to the formerly Secret interrogation report, the German (referred to in the report as the "Source") was interrogated at RCAF HQ in Ottawa by Squadron Leader G. A. White, Flight Lieutenant H. Brooks, and a Mr. S. Shramshenko. Group Captain N. W. Timmerman and Flying Officer H. P. Korntoff sat in as observers.
Three things immediately stand out from this initial interrogation.
First, the level of the officers involved. All were commissioned officers, and two - White and Timmerman - were senior officers (a Squadron Leader was the equivalent of a Major, and a Group Captain the equivalent of a Colonel; a Flight Lieutenant was the equivalent of a Captain, and a Flying Officer a 1st Lieutenant). They were members of the Department of Air Intelligence. This indicates that the RCAF took the claim, at least in the beginning, seriously.
Second, the thoroughness of the interrogation. The source provided his alleged full history, the supposed history of the programs he had allegedly work on, and some of what he claimed were his own design plans, which he stated were superior to the original German plans. The fact that the officers didn't seem to think much of his story shows that they knew their stuff. For example, they immediately recognized that the plan the source showed them was actually a conventional jet with a circular wing.
Third, the lack of civilian involvement (other than Shramshenko, who was probably an interpreter, although this is a point that needs to be confirmed). This was a matter that related directly to flying saucers, and therefore national security. It occurred after the creation of Project Second Story (of which Timmerman was a member) earlier that year, and yet it was run entirely by the Air Force.
The interrogators sent the source on his way, and that most likely would have been the end of it, except two days later the source contacted DAI and told them that he had not divulged all that he knew about the flying saucer program, and that he had a number of drawings that pertained to the construction of the German flying saucer. The DAI determined that it could not afford to ignore this information, and arranged for a second interrogation later that day. Once again, it took place at Air Force HQ in Ottawa. It was conducted by Timmerman, White, and Brooks, with an unnamed civilian observer present.
This time, the officers could not immediately dismiss the new information provided by the source - it appeared to them to be outside their area of knowledge. Accordingly, they arranged for a third interview, which would involve members of the National Research Council who did have the knowledge to assess the new claims.
This third - and final - interview took place later that day, at the National Research Council offices in Ottawa. Squadron Leader White represented DAI as an observer, but the questions this time were asked by four experts - F. R. Thurston, Chief of the Structure Laboratory at the NRC (in 1976, he would be awarded the prestigious McCurdy Award by the Canadian Aeronautics and Space Institute; see http://www.casi.ca/index.php?pg=awards); T. Stephens, Chief of the Aerodynamics Laboratory at the NRC; A. H. Hall, the Assistant Chief of the Structures Laboratory; and R. A. Tyler, a research officer in gas dynamics at the NRC. According to the report, they "thoroughly questioned" the source on "all aspects of the design and technical detail of the alleged flying saucer. At this point, under hard questioning by scientific experts, it became clear that the source did not know what he was talking about. As the report states:
"Source was, however, unable to answer with any accuracy, questions pertaining to types of metals used, fuel used, how various parts of the aircraft operated and / or their size, etc. He was unable to answer many of the questions at all."
The NRC officials concluded that the source was a "thorough liar," that he was "trying to bluff his way through the interrogation," that he was "technically unqualified to have such knowledge of aircraft structure or design," and that there was "nothing new, technically or in design, in the plans produced or information heard from the source." As a result, the source was sent on his way, and the matter closed - although neither the NRC officials nor the DAI officers ruled out the possibility that such machines had existed, or the possibility that they could be built (which, given some of the work the Defence Research Board was involved in at that time, comes as no surprise).
What this episode demonstrates, yet again, is that the real investigation of the UFO phenomenon in Canada was being run by the Royal Canadian Air Force. When a potentially important source of UFO information surfaced, it was DAI officers that conducted the investigation, and then NRC scientists who were consulted about the technical aspects.
It was not being run by the far too credulous Wilbert Smith, the Senior Radio Regulations Engineer in the Air Services Section of the Department of Transport, who at this time was working on an interim report for his pet Project Magnet that somehow managed to conclude - without any evidence - that "saucers are real," and that they operated in a very precise manner.
After all, the Defence Research Board and the RCAF took the subject of UFOs seriously.
And how the neo-Nazis use this all:Rumours have existed for decades that the Germans, towards the end of the Second World War, were working on creating a flying saucer. Indeed, some fringe conspiracy theorists today maintain that the Germans actually made at least one, and got it to work (the follow-along contention often being that these projects were taken over by the Americans and / or Soviets after the war).
While there is no doubt that the Germans were working on advanced aircraft and missile design throughout the war, there has never been any credible evidence that the claims of "Nazi flying saucers" was anything other than a myth, in the purest sense of the term (i.e. not true). Anyone who tells you otherwise simply has no idea what they are talking about.
However, while we might know this now, things were much different back in the early 1950s. It was an era of heightened Cold War tension between the superpowers, but it was also an era of intense competition between the western allies, particularly the Anglo-American-Canadian triumvirate, for technological advances. Finally, the myriad reports of UFOs being seen around the world had gotten the attention of everyone - especially the Air Force, both in the United States, and in Canada.
So, when a German came forward and claimed that he had knowledge of a secret Nazi flying saucer program, the authorities, at least in Canada, took him seriously.
In the late spring of 1952, a German immigrant to Canada approached a former RCAF officer of his acquaintance, and told him that he had knowledge of German flying saucer design and production. The former officer reported this to the RCAF, which arranged an interview with the German. On 21 June, 1952, according to the formerly Secret interrogation report, the German (referred to in the report as the "Source") was interrogated at RCAF HQ in Ottawa by Squadron Leader G. A. White, Flight Lieutenant H. Brooks, and a Mr. S. Shramshenko. Group Captain N. W. Timmerman and Flying Officer H. P. Korntoff sat in as observers.
Three things immediately stand out from this initial interrogation.
First, the level of the officers involved. All were commissioned officers, and two - White and Timmerman - were senior officers (a Squadron Leader was the equivalent of a Major, and a Group Captain the equivalent of a Colonel; a Flight Lieutenant was the equivalent of a Captain, and a Flying Officer a 1st Lieutenant). They were members of the Department of Air Intelligence. This indicates that the RCAF took the claim, at least in the beginning, seriously.
Second, the thoroughness of the interrogation. The source provided his alleged full history, the supposed history of the programs he had allegedly work on, and some of what he claimed were his own design plans, which he stated were superior to the original German plans. The fact that the officers didn't seem to think much of his story shows that they knew their stuff. For example, they immediately recognized that the plan the source showed them was actually a conventional jet with a circular wing.
Third, the lack of civilian involvement (other than Shramshenko, who was probably an interpreter, although this is a point that needs to be confirmed). This was a matter that related directly to flying saucers, and therefore national security. It occurred after the creation of Project Second Story (of which Timmerman was a member) earlier that year, and yet it was run entirely by the Air Force.
The interrogators sent the source on his way, and that most likely would have been the end of it, except two days later the source contacted DAI and told them that he had not divulged all that he knew about the flying saucer program, and that he had a number of drawings that pertained to the construction of the German flying saucer. The DAI determined that it could not afford to ignore this information, and arranged for a second interrogation later that day. Once again, it took place at Air Force HQ in Ottawa. It was conducted by Timmerman, White, and Brooks, with an unnamed civilian observer present.
This time, the officers could not immediately dismiss the new information provided by the source - it appeared to them to be outside their area of knowledge. Accordingly, they arranged for a third interview, which would involve members of the National Research Council who did have the knowledge to assess the new claims.
This third - and final - interview took place later that day, at the National Research Council offices in Ottawa. Squadron Leader White represented DAI as an observer, but the questions this time were asked by four experts - F. R. Thurston, Chief of the Structure Laboratory at the NRC (in 1976, he would be awarded the prestigious McCurdy Award by the Canadian Aeronautics and Space Institute; see http://www.casi.ca/index.php?pg=awards); T. Stephens, Chief of the Aerodynamics Laboratory at the NRC; A. H. Hall, the Assistant Chief of the Structures Laboratory; and R. A. Tyler, a research officer in gas dynamics at the NRC. According to the report, they "thoroughly questioned" the source on "all aspects of the design and technical detail of the alleged flying saucer. At this point, under hard questioning by scientific experts, it became clear that the source did not know what he was talking about. As the report states:
"Source was, however, unable to answer with any accuracy, questions pertaining to types of metals used, fuel used, how various parts of the aircraft operated and / or their size, etc. He was unable to answer many of the questions at all."
The NRC officials concluded that the source was a "thorough liar," that he was "trying to bluff his way through the interrogation," that he was "technically unqualified to have such knowledge of aircraft structure or design," and that there was "nothing new, technically or in design, in the plans produced or information heard from the source." As a result, the source was sent on his way, and the matter closed - although neither the NRC officials nor the DAI officers ruled out the possibility that such machines had existed, or the possibility that they could be built (which, given some of the work the Defence Research Board was involved in at that time, comes as no surprise).
What this episode demonstrates, yet again, is that the real investigation of the UFO phenomenon in Canada was being run by the Royal Canadian Air Force. When a potentially important source of UFO information surfaced, it was DAI officers that conducted the investigation, and then NRC scientists who were consulted about the technical aspects.
It was not being run by the far too credulous Wilbert Smith, the Senior Radio Regulations Engineer in the Air Services Section of the Department of Transport, who at this time was working on an interim report for his pet Project Magnet that somehow managed to conclude - without any evidence - that "saucers are real," and that they operated in a very precise manner.
After all, the Defence Research Board and the RCAF took the subject of UFOs seriously.
http://redstarfilms.blogspot.com/2007/10/nazis-neo-nazis-and-ufos.html
Nazis, neo-Nazis and UFOs
Lately on UFO Updates there has been an embarrassing thread going on in which the idea that the Nazis may have been involved in UFO research (or something like that) in Antarctica has been floated (based upon some book that's about to come out). This is all rubbish, and I'm not going to dignify the "debate" by providing any more details, other than to note that the people who seem to put any stock in this notion are people who have no - and I mean NO - knowledge or understanding of the history of the period under discussion (if you're really interested, for some reason, you can subscribe to Updates and check them out yourself). Yes, they occasionally get facts right, but history isn't just about dates and facts - it's about understanding what they mean (that's what makes history interesting, and relevant).
Anyway, my point here is to note that the Nazi meme is not a new one in ufology, but it has been a dangerous one, for reasons that many people have pointed out in the past, including Strange Days... Indeed commentator Dave Furlotte (see here). Neo-Nazis like Ernst Zundel have used the UFO subject in the past to lure the most gullible people into their web of hate and lies on the theory that if a person was willing to swallow the kind of bilge that Zundel and others pedaled with regards to Nazi UFOs, then they were identified as prime targets for a far more dangerous kind of bilge, Holocaust denial (anyone who wants a more detailed examination of the Zundel story should pick up a copy of Warren Kinsella's excellent book, Web of Hate; for Zundel and UFOs, see The Nizkor Project's page here).
Does this mean that all people who support the "Nazi bases in Antarctica claims" that pop up now and then are neo-Nazis? Of course not. But their kind of rank stupidity does demonstrate that there are indeed people out there who are simply incapable of separating fact from fiction - people who are so desperate to believe in UFOs as aliens, or whatever, that they will believe virtually anything else. This is just this kind of "believer blindness" that neo-Nazis like Ernst Zundel, or cult leaders like Marshall Applewhite, always count on, something that anyone interested in the study of the UFO subject should always keep in mind.
Lately on UFO Updates there has been an embarrassing thread going on in which the idea that the Nazis may have been involved in UFO research (or something like that) in Antarctica has been floated (based upon some book that's about to come out). This is all rubbish, and I'm not going to dignify the "debate" by providing any more details, other than to note that the people who seem to put any stock in this notion are people who have no - and I mean NO - knowledge or understanding of the history of the period under discussion (if you're really interested, for some reason, you can subscribe to Updates and check them out yourself). Yes, they occasionally get facts right, but history isn't just about dates and facts - it's about understanding what they mean (that's what makes history interesting, and relevant).
Anyway, my point here is to note that the Nazi meme is not a new one in ufology, but it has been a dangerous one, for reasons that many people have pointed out in the past, including Strange Days... Indeed commentator Dave Furlotte (see here). Neo-Nazis like Ernst Zundel have used the UFO subject in the past to lure the most gullible people into their web of hate and lies on the theory that if a person was willing to swallow the kind of bilge that Zundel and others pedaled with regards to Nazi UFOs, then they were identified as prime targets for a far more dangerous kind of bilge, Holocaust denial (anyone who wants a more detailed examination of the Zundel story should pick up a copy of Warren Kinsella's excellent book, Web of Hate; for Zundel and UFOs, see The Nizkor Project's page here).
Does this mean that all people who support the "Nazi bases in Antarctica claims" that pop up now and then are neo-Nazis? Of course not. But their kind of rank stupidity does demonstrate that there are indeed people out there who are simply incapable of separating fact from fiction - people who are so desperate to believe in UFOs as aliens, or whatever, that they will believe virtually anything else. This is just this kind of "believer blindness" that neo-Nazis like Ernst Zundel, or cult leaders like Marshall Applewhite, always count on, something that anyone interested in the study of the UFO subject should always keep in mind.
jratcliff
Skilled Investigator
Well said Paul. Now, my question is how come Greg Bishop, and others I have heard recently, are championing Joseph Farrell as 'the real hope for an answer to Roswell'? This includes the guest Walter Bosely who claims that the 'aliens' at Roswell weren't aliens but Nazis.
I'm fine with those who reject Roswell as nothing but a bunch of tall tales and myth making. But, if you accept witness testimony about alien bodies and crashed flying disks, then let's be a bit more cautious before we start positing wild theories without any further direct evidence.
As I said previously, if we have been privy to technologies which violate the known laws of physics since the 1940's, I think somebody would have published something in the scientific literature since then. Seriously....
John
I'm fine with those who reject Roswell as nothing but a bunch of tall tales and myth making. But, if you accept witness testimony about alien bodies and crashed flying disks, then let's be a bit more cautious before we start positing wild theories without any further direct evidence.
As I said previously, if we have been privy to technologies which violate the known laws of physics since the 1940's, I think somebody would have published something in the scientific literature since then. Seriously....
John
P
Paul Kimball
Guest
I haven't read Farrell's book, and I have to admit that I'm not terribly interested, in it or Roswell. While it is absolutely true that the US government used former Nazi scientists and engineers in its rocket program after the war, including never-prosecuted war criminal Wehrner von Braun, it is an interstellar-sized leap to go from that to any theory that posits the Nazis brought flying saucer technology with them. If they had, it would have been at the head of a conquering army, and we would probably all be speaking German right now.
If you want a WWII-oriented theory, Nick Redfern's is far more plausible.
Kieran
Paranormal Adept
The most ridiculous of all the UFO myths, and that's saying something, is the one that holds that the Nazis somehow engineered a flying saucer. There is absolutely NO evidence to support that claim, and it's safe to say that if they Nazis has developed that kind of advanced technology, they would have used it - just as they used all the other advanced technology that they reallt did develop (jets, V1, V2...).
This has never stopped neo-Nazis from using these stories to recruit gullible new followers - and no, I'm not saying that everyone who buys this stuff is a Neo-Nazi - just that you have to be aware of the subcurrents with stuff like this.
Here are a couple of things I've written in the past about the subject. The first demonstrates that in the years immediately after the war, as the Cold War was heating up, Western governments got some strange claims made to them about Nazis and flying saucers, and took them seriously enough to at least investigate.
http://redstarfilms.blogspot.com/2005/10/canada-and-flying-saucers-part-iii.html
Canada and the Flying Saucers, Part III (Enter the Nazis?) (from 23 August, 2005)And how the neo-Nazis use this all:
Rumours have existed for decades that the Germans, towards the end of the Second World War, were working on creating a flying saucer. Indeed, some fringe conspiracy theorists today maintain that the Germans actually made at least one, and got it to work (the follow-along contention often being that these projects were taken over by the Americans and / or Soviets after the war).
While there is no doubt that the Germans were working on advanced aircraft and missile design throughout the war, there has never been any credible evidence that the claims of "Nazi flying saucers" was anything other than a myth, in the purest sense of the term (i.e. not true). Anyone who tells you otherwise simply has no idea what they are talking about.
However, while we might know this now, things were much different back in the early 1950s. It was an era of heightened Cold War tension between the superpowers, but it was also an era of intense competition between the western allies, particularly the Anglo-American-Canadian triumvirate, for technological advances. Finally, the myriad reports of UFOs being seen around the world had gotten the attention of everyone - especially the Air Force, both in the United States, and in Canada.
So, when a German came forward and claimed that he had knowledge of a secret Nazi flying saucer program, the authorities, at least in Canada, took him seriously.
In the late spring of 1952, a German immigrant to Canada approached a former RCAF officer of his acquaintance, and told him that he had knowledge of German flying saucer design and production. The former officer reported this to the RCAF, which arranged an interview with the German. On 21 June, 1952, according to the formerly Secret interrogation report, the German (referred to in the report as the "Source") was interrogated at RCAF HQ in Ottawa by Squadron Leader G. A. White, Flight Lieutenant H. Brooks, and a Mr. S. Shramshenko. Group Captain N. W. Timmerman and Flying Officer H. P. Korntoff sat in as observers.
Three things immediately stand out from this initial interrogation.
First, the level of the officers involved. All were commissioned officers, and two - White and Timmerman - were senior officers (a Squadron Leader was the equivalent of a Major, and a Group Captain the equivalent of a Colonel; a Flight Lieutenant was the equivalent of a Captain, and a Flying Officer a 1st Lieutenant). They were members of the Department of Air Intelligence. This indicates that the RCAF took the claim, at least in the beginning, seriously.
Second, the thoroughness of the interrogation. The source provided his alleged full history, the supposed history of the programs he had allegedly work on, and some of what he claimed were his own design plans, which he stated were superior to the original German plans. The fact that the officers didn't seem to think much of his story shows that they knew their stuff. For example, they immediately recognized that the plan the source showed them was actually a conventional jet with a circular wing.
Third, the lack of civilian involvement (other than Shramshenko, who was probably an interpreter, although this is a point that needs to be confirmed). This was a matter that related directly to flying saucers, and therefore national security. It occurred after the creation of Project Second Story (of which Timmerman was a member) earlier that year, and yet it was run entirely by the Air Force.
The interrogators sent the source on his way, and that most likely would have been the end of it, except two days later the source contacted DAI and told them that he had not divulged all that he knew about the flying saucer program, and that he had a number of drawings that pertained to the construction of the German flying saucer. The DAI determined that it could not afford to ignore this information, and arranged for a second interrogation later that day. Once again, it took place at Air Force HQ in Ottawa. It was conducted by Timmerman, White, and Brooks, with an unnamed civilian observer present.
This time, the officers could not immediately dismiss the new information provided by the source - it appeared to them to be outside their area of knowledge. Accordingly, they arranged for a third interview, which would involve members of the National Research Council who did have the knowledge to assess the new claims.
This third - and final - interview took place later that day, at the National Research Council offices in Ottawa. Squadron Leader White represented DAI as an observer, but the questions this time were asked by four experts - F. R. Thurston, Chief of the Structure Laboratory at the NRC (in 1976, he would be awarded the prestigious McCurdy Award by the Canadian Aeronautics and Space Institute; see http://www.casi.ca/index.php?pg=awards); T. Stephens, Chief of the Aerodynamics Laboratory at the NRC; A. H. Hall, the Assistant Chief of the Structures Laboratory; and R. A. Tyler, a research officer in gas dynamics at the NRC. According to the report, they "thoroughly questioned" the source on "all aspects of the design and technical detail of the alleged flying saucer. At this point, under hard questioning by scientific experts, it became clear that the source did not know what he was talking about. As the report states:
"Source was, however, unable to answer with any accuracy, questions pertaining to types of metals used, fuel used, how various parts of the aircraft operated and / or their size, etc. He was unable to answer many of the questions at all."
The NRC officials concluded that the source was a "thorough liar," that he was "trying to bluff his way through the interrogation," that he was "technically unqualified to have such knowledge of aircraft structure or design," and that there was "nothing new, technically or in design, in the plans produced or information heard from the source." As a result, the source was sent on his way, and the matter closed - although neither the NRC officials nor the DAI officers ruled out the possibility that such machines had existed, or the possibility that they could be built (which, given some of the work the Defence Research Board was involved in at that time, comes as no surprise).
What this episode demonstrates, yet again, is that the real investigation of the UFO phenomenon in Canada was being run by the Royal Canadian Air Force. When a potentially important source of UFO information surfaced, it was DAI officers that conducted the investigation, and then NRC scientists who were consulted about the technical aspects.
It was not being run by the far too credulous Wilbert Smith, the Senior Radio Regulations Engineer in the Air Services Section of the Department of Transport, who at this time was working on an interim report for his pet Project Magnet that somehow managed to conclude - without any evidence - that "saucers are real," and that they operated in a very precise manner.
After all, the Defence Research Board and the RCAF took the subject of UFOs seriously.
http://redstarfilms.blogspot.com/2007/10/nazis-neo-nazis-and-ufos.html
Nazis, neo-Nazis and UFOs
Lately on UFO Updates there has been an embarrassing thread going on in which the idea that the Nazis may have been involved in UFO research (or something like that) in Antarctica has been floated (based upon some book that's about to come out). This is all rubbish, and I'm not going to dignify the "debate" by providing any more details, other than to note that the people who seem to put any stock in this notion are people who have no - and I mean NO - knowledge or understanding of the history of the period under discussion (if you're really interested, for some reason, you can subscribe to Updates and check them out yourself). Yes, they occasionally get facts right, but history isn't just about dates and facts - it's about understanding what they mean (that's what makes history interesting, and relevant).
Anyway, my point here is to note that the Nazi meme is not a new one in ufology, but it has been a dangerous one, for reasons that many people have pointed out in the past, including Strange Days... Indeed commentator Dave Furlotte (see here). Neo-Nazis like Ernst Zundel have used the UFO subject in the past to lure the most gullible people into their web of hate and lies on the theory that if a person was willing to swallow the kind of bilge that Zundel and others pedaled with regards to Nazi UFOs, then they were identified as prime targets for a far more dangerous kind of bilge, Holocaust denial (anyone who wants a more detailed examination of the Zundel story should pick up a copy of Warren Kinsella's excellent book, Web of Hate; for Zundel and UFOs, see The Nizkor Project's page here).
Does this mean that all people who support the "Nazi bases in Antarctica claims" that pop up now and then are neo-Nazis? Of course not. But their kind of rank stupidity does demonstrate that there are indeed people out there who are simply incapable of separating fact from fiction - people who are so desperate to believe in UFOs as aliens, or whatever, that they will believe virtually anything else. This is just this kind of "believer blindness" that neo-Nazis like Ernst Zundel, or cult leaders like Marshall Applewhite, always count on, something that anyone interested in the study of the UFO subject should always keep in mind.
Interesting i too believe the story of a UFO crashing in Germany 1936 is a "False myth". Also the're is no historical documentation or evidence either physical or photographic that can confirm the stories of Nazi Saucer development during the 1930's or 40's. While i say all that, i do have to consider some evidence "Information" that was relayed to the public through sources that have alleged, the're was some truth to these stories. I myself have serious doubts to some, if not all the information provided by these sources, but the information was provided to the public from well-known historical figures connected with the Nazi Regime and elsewhere. These people i will talk about soon the're credentials can not be refuted or dismissed and they have backgrounds here that can be checked up on and confirmed.
"Nick Cook, is reputable Aerospace Journalist he believes there is a strong chance that German scientists were working on developing Anti-Gravity devices including Flying saucers during the war years.
"Professor Giusespe Belluzzo was the Minister of the national economy for Italy' during World War 2. He is the author of 5O recognised Engineering books and he also build the first turbine powered train in the world. He claimed the Nazi regime were working and designing craft that were saucer in shape towards the end of World War 2
Chief Engineer George Klein worked on the "Avrocar", a circular Jet Aircraft. A project that occurred in Canada. This project was declassified in 1995. Klein worked for the Speer ministry during World War 2 which was confirmed as being true (a file in the CIA does confirm this reality) outside of this historical fact he indeed had worked at Avrocar Canada in the late 1950's.
He Alleged, he witnessed on the 14th feb 1945.. a test of a saucer vehicle and this was undertaken at Habermehl Prague. It was a successful test, but before it could be put into mass-production, the war ended. Everything relating to this project according to Klein was burned and these machines were destroyed according to Klein, before the Soviets got to the location. He claimed the design of the "Avrocar" was based on plans he saw of the Nazi Saucers.
Rudolf Schreiver a German engineer claimed in 1950. A number of newspapers around seven i believe carried the story. He Backed up the story of the alleged test of saucer craft in Prague 1945. In 1953 he disappeared was never heard from again. He was one of the chief Architects of the Nazi saucer myth.
Some of these myths have indeed elaborated on the internet into a cultish historical mythology and there is a concern Neo-Nazi sympathisers and followers are using these original claims and allegations to somehow bolster the image of the Fallen Nazi regime. I do believe that is the case. The 1936 Black Forest UFO crash is a story purported mainly by Neo Nazis elements on the web. Their mixing the Paranormal and the Nazis Together for some bizarre and twisted ideology, perhaps they feel the need to increasing their ego here, maybe these dischanted men and women also feel need to be special or be part of some greater power or race. Often they start excluding themselves from the race they actually belong to "the Human race" while this particular people seek the Superman race or the Master race lol we must not forget that often Religion and the colour of a person skin too can lead to tension and problems socially within societies and some wars in the past and present have been caused by faith tensions. Like i said before, at the end of the day, we all part of the human race and we all bleed the same substance, so what is all the hate about really?
Walter Bosley
Paranormal Adept
For the record, I confirmed with two official sources that Walt Disney was never a Freemason as an adult, in spite of contrary and never-ending popular legend. He was in DeMolay as a teenager, but that does not a Mason make.
Club 33 at Disneyland is cited to refer to the original thirty-three investor/sponsor/companies that helped finance Disneyland; HOWEVER, I suspect the reference also relates to the latitude of 33 N, on which the park is essentially located.
I am a Blue Lodge Freemason, 3rd Degree Master Mason to be specific, raised in the Babylon Lodge on Long Island, NY, in 1992. I served as Marshall for several months until military entrance to officer training school in August 1993. I have not been active in any lodge since that time, though not because I oppose it in any way. I've just moved around a lot, had a profession that made great demands on my time, and spent several years mostly out of the United States in different countries every month.
Walter Bosley
---------- Post added at 12:34 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:28 AM ----------
All due respect to Mac, whom I never met, more than one person can confirm that I have been talking about my dad's story long before I ever heard of Mac. Others as well have been writing and discussing these topics longer than I or Mac combined, i.e. Jacques Vallee, John Keel and Wm Michael Mott to name just a few. What Mac was accomplishing very well was another very intelligent set of eyes and analysis being aimed at these topics, bringing a solid new voice to the field. I have no doubt that the circle would have widened as more of us met him and had the opportunity to possibly work with him. But for the record, I think even Mac would have argued that the point is crypto-terrestrials has been an idea older than the ET Religio-- OOOPS, EXCUSE ME! The ET Hypothesis...
Walter Bosley
---------- Post added at 12:48 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:34 AM ----------
---------- Post added at 12:50 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:48 AM ----------
---------- Post added at 12:56 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:50 AM ----------
Regarding earth energy lines not being 'good science':
Science is much theory, remember
Telluric currents are energy lines coursing through the earth
I refer you to The Handprint of Atlas by Sesh Heri, among other works on the subject
Believe me, nobody knows more than I do how wacky this stuff I've found and EXPERIENCED is!
Walter Bosley
Club 33 at Disneyland is cited to refer to the original thirty-three investor/sponsor/companies that helped finance Disneyland; HOWEVER, I suspect the reference also relates to the latitude of 33 N, on which the park is essentially located.
I am a Blue Lodge Freemason, 3rd Degree Master Mason to be specific, raised in the Babylon Lodge on Long Island, NY, in 1992. I served as Marshall for several months until military entrance to officer training school in August 1993. I have not been active in any lodge since that time, though not because I oppose it in any way. I've just moved around a lot, had a profession that made great demands on my time, and spent several years mostly out of the United States in different countries every month.
Walter Bosley
---------- Post added at 12:34 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:28 AM ----------
All due respect to Mac, whom I never met, more than one person can confirm that I have been talking about my dad's story long before I ever heard of Mac. Others as well have been writing and discussing these topics longer than I or Mac combined, i.e. Jacques Vallee, John Keel and Wm Michael Mott to name just a few. What Mac was accomplishing very well was another very intelligent set of eyes and analysis being aimed at these topics, bringing a solid new voice to the field. I have no doubt that the circle would have widened as more of us met him and had the opportunity to possibly work with him. But for the record, I think even Mac would have argued that the point is crypto-terrestrials has been an idea older than the ET Religio-- OOOPS, EXCUSE ME! The ET Hypothesis...
Walter Bosley
---------- Post added at 12:48 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:34 AM ----------
---------- Post added at 12:50 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:48 AM ----------
- First of all, I never said Latitude 33 is cursed. I argue that it is a zone of interesting activity. Cursed? That's your idea.
Secondly, I saw the image of a goddess burned onto the side of a mountain. Your acceptance of that is your choice. I have also seen a similar image burned onto the side of another mountain which I have a photograph of, which I should scan and upload somewhere for you to see what sort of image I'm talking about.
Here's the beauty of what I saw: I have come to realize that it means far far less that anyone listening to a podcast believe me than it does me seeing what I saw and learning what I have learned since. You will not find that experience in any book I'm selling either. I chose to share that with the audience that night, but I'll not write of it. I will likely not speak of it again publicly, for I was merely in the mood to mention it that night. Notice I still have not identified who she was, nor will I, for that is personal, between she and I. And seeing her had everything to do with where I was standing at that moment. It was one of the most amazing experiences of my life and I simply wanted to share it. But make no mistake, I wasn't trying to convince anyone of anything about it. That would be impossible...until one sees for oneself...
And if you're going to accuse me of lying, feel free to say it, rather than 'fiction as truth'... I get the implication and it doesn't ruffle me. I'm a stranger to you and charlatans have come along often. Hearing something beyond your own frame of experience is often difficult to process or even impossible. I throw myself out there on these programs and must expect that. It DOES sound wild -- and I assure you, I AGREE!
Walter Bosley
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---------- Post added at 12:56 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:50 AM ----------
Regarding earth energy lines not being 'good science':
Science is much theory, remember
Telluric currents are energy lines coursing through the earth
I refer you to The Handprint of Atlas by Sesh Heri, among other works on the subject
Believe me, nobody knows more than I do how wacky this stuff I've found and EXPERIENCED is!
Walter Bosley
Walter Bosley
Paranormal Adept
All I was told by my father is what I shared with the listeners.
The disaster was merely described to me as a planetary calamity on the surface. My father's experience with these people was in the US southwest, specifically Eastern Arizona, and in the late 1950s. He said he was briefed that the Roswell incident was a prior incident involving the same civilization.
I have shared all I know in every interview on the subject. That is all there is. A good investigator also knows he obtains only so many clues from any given witness or source. If there are no more to give, then dig elsewhere. That's what I try to do. A lack of particular clues does not necessarily imply the known clues are false.
For the record, sometimes a lot of detail can be a sign of fabrication, too, i.e. the number of fingers, etc... I don't recall my dad telling me how many fingers they had on their hands. He seemed to have been more impressed with their ability and willingness to kill the man standing next to him.
I have also stated that I personally lean more toward Farrell's Nazi evidence.
All we can do is gather what evidence we have. It's never enough for some, or it's too unbelievable for others, etc. But that can't stop us, we must share what we do have, and that is what I have done.
The woman on the mountain was an image burned across a mountain. Unless you're sincerely an atheist, it is no more 'out there' than gathering in a temple every week, praying to a god you believe hears you, believing in an afterlife, or believing angels exist (all of which I do except the temple part)...
Walter Bosley
---------- Post added at 01:51 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:10 AM ----------
Lance Moody, et al: I will attempt to attach my DD214 in a subsequent message as several attempts to do so here did not work.
Also, I commenced duty with the FBI on 14 March 1988 at the Los Angeles Field Office, 11000 Wilshire Boulevard. Started as a mail clerk, even delivering mail to Special Agent Jim Graham whose daughter was an up and coming actress at the time in a movie called 'License To Drive' for which Jim had a poster on his office wall. Her name is Heather Graham, you can IMDB her... 45 days later I was promoted to Evidence Technician. About three months or so, transferred to San Jose from where I was then transferred to San Francisco to work in the Foreign Counterintelligence Division as a member of something called SSG, a credentialed position. My supervisor was SA Richard Otstott. After that, off to Baltimore for a year where I was trained in Russian for eleven months adjacent to Ft Meade. I spent the remainder of my time with the Bureau as a credentialed Language Specialist working on a squad I can't talk about in Manhattan until July 1993.
August - November 1993, USAF Officer Training School as the attached will reflect. Then assignment to agent academy, where I earned my federal badge (#1911) and credential. My first assignment was AFOSI Detachment 110, Los Angeles AFB, where I served in the counterintelligence branch and as a liaison agent to the very FBI office I began my career. You can call my ex-wife Laura Eimiller, FBI media rep at the LA office presently, and she'll confirm (though with venom in her tone, to be sure!), or she'll refer you to headquarters just to be a pain
. If you can run down SA Roger Cook, he was there at the time, too, and might recall me since we worked on the same task force. After Los Angeles, I was assigned to AFOSI Detachment 101, Wright-Patterson AFB, from March 1996 to June 1999, where I proudly served as Chief of the Counterespionage Operations Branch. My commanders were Lt Col Mark Husband and also Lt Col James McDonough. During that assignment, I spent six months deployed to Prince Sultan AB, Al Kharj, KSA (with 45 days up at Al Jaber AB in Kuwait). My remaining month or so at Sultan was as OIC of the 4404 Wing Force Protection Cell. I have round metal objects and decorations and photographs, too. My commanders were Steve Runyan and Pete Courtney while there. Oh golly! Let's not forget that I worked a lot with Columbus OH FBI agent Les Szasz!
I went on terminal leave from active duty in April 1999 and took 30 days leave in Europe, then returned to my home state, California.
The following spring I began working as an anti-terrorism security consultant and traveled the world on that job until summer of 2005. This included service in Iraq during the war, and a few times in Afghanistan during those hostilities, as well as Sudan and Pakistan and other wonderful places around the globe. Got photos of all this, too, by golly!
Currently, I hold a private investigator's license in the State of California: #26248, firm name "Special Collections" of which I am 'Owner/Operator'
I am never unwilling to clarify my service in the security of my fellow countrymen and am most happy to illuminate the facts for you, Sweet Pea!
Walter Bosley
---------- Post added at 02:17 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:51 AM ----------
My article on what my father told me appeared in FATE Magazine, April 2005, Page 26, titled 'The Other Paradigm' and published under my pseudonym 'E.A.Guest' because my employment was sensitive enough at the time to not publish it under my own name. The article appeared in FATE's 'Best of Roswell' hardcover.
My Disneyland book can be found at the following link:
Latitude 33:Key to the Kingdom Just scroll down, you'll see the cover graphic link...
I will email my DD214 to Gene and he can load it here for me...
More to follow...
Walter Bosley
---------- Post added at 02:36 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:17 AM ----------
Oh yes, might I provide a little critique...?
When a regular listener of a podcast or member of any forum such as The Paracast, one might not want to refer to others' experiences and theories as 'bullshit' because, quite frankly, EVERYTHING here could be classified as bullshit. It is actually quite amusing to me to see such responses here from people who will, in the same message (sometimes the very same sentence!) turn around and profess that the idea a known earthbound, historical state such as Germany may have developed technology that remains secret to this day is utter nonsense BUT large headed grey men from Zeta Reticuli are far more reasonable an explanation for flying things in the skies a mere two years after World War 2. If you don't see my point, you don't want to (you don't have to agree with it...). (That said, I acknowledge Farrell could be wrong... I just find his theory very reasonable...) I don't mean to appear to pick on Paul's reply about the Nazi theory; it's actually thought out, whether I agree with him or not. I simply used one example to make my point that we ALL talk about potentially 'nutty' things, so we should at least generally refrain from making hypocrites of ourselves.
Personally, like Paul, I don't really care very much about Roswell anymore.
I suggest those who have a hard time believing what they hear me or anyone here say go out and start investigating these things yourself. I don't mean sit on your computer or just read someone else's book. I mean get out there and personally dig into some related mystery near you. Actually, physically, visit sites. Interview people face to face. Do some sort of field research and don't tell anyone all the details of what you find right off. Work on it a while, months, maybe a year. You will either prove yourself right, or you won't... But until you do, you're actually just a blowhard...and you know it. Those of us who have gone out there know it, too
Get out there like Chris. He'll tell you what field research is like...
Walter Bosley
The disaster was merely described to me as a planetary calamity on the surface. My father's experience with these people was in the US southwest, specifically Eastern Arizona, and in the late 1950s. He said he was briefed that the Roswell incident was a prior incident involving the same civilization.
I have shared all I know in every interview on the subject. That is all there is. A good investigator also knows he obtains only so many clues from any given witness or source. If there are no more to give, then dig elsewhere. That's what I try to do. A lack of particular clues does not necessarily imply the known clues are false.
For the record, sometimes a lot of detail can be a sign of fabrication, too, i.e. the number of fingers, etc... I don't recall my dad telling me how many fingers they had on their hands. He seemed to have been more impressed with their ability and willingness to kill the man standing next to him.
I have also stated that I personally lean more toward Farrell's Nazi evidence.
All we can do is gather what evidence we have. It's never enough for some, or it's too unbelievable for others, etc. But that can't stop us, we must share what we do have, and that is what I have done.
The woman on the mountain was an image burned across a mountain. Unless you're sincerely an atheist, it is no more 'out there' than gathering in a temple every week, praying to a god you believe hears you, believing in an afterlife, or believing angels exist (all of which I do except the temple part)...
Walter Bosley
---------- Post added at 01:51 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:10 AM ----------
Lance Moody, et al: I will attempt to attach my DD214 in a subsequent message as several attempts to do so here did not work.
Also, I commenced duty with the FBI on 14 March 1988 at the Los Angeles Field Office, 11000 Wilshire Boulevard. Started as a mail clerk, even delivering mail to Special Agent Jim Graham whose daughter was an up and coming actress at the time in a movie called 'License To Drive' for which Jim had a poster on his office wall. Her name is Heather Graham, you can IMDB her... 45 days later I was promoted to Evidence Technician. About three months or so, transferred to San Jose from where I was then transferred to San Francisco to work in the Foreign Counterintelligence Division as a member of something called SSG, a credentialed position. My supervisor was SA Richard Otstott. After that, off to Baltimore for a year where I was trained in Russian for eleven months adjacent to Ft Meade. I spent the remainder of my time with the Bureau as a credentialed Language Specialist working on a squad I can't talk about in Manhattan until July 1993.
August - November 1993, USAF Officer Training School as the attached will reflect. Then assignment to agent academy, where I earned my federal badge (#1911) and credential. My first assignment was AFOSI Detachment 110, Los Angeles AFB, where I served in the counterintelligence branch and as a liaison agent to the very FBI office I began my career. You can call my ex-wife Laura Eimiller, FBI media rep at the LA office presently, and she'll confirm (though with venom in her tone, to be sure!), or she'll refer you to headquarters just to be a pain
. If you can run down SA Roger Cook, he was there at the time, too, and might recall me since we worked on the same task force. After Los Angeles, I was assigned to AFOSI Detachment 101, Wright-Patterson AFB, from March 1996 to June 1999, where I proudly served as Chief of the Counterespionage Operations Branch. My commanders were Lt Col Mark Husband and also Lt Col James McDonough. During that assignment, I spent six months deployed to Prince Sultan AB, Al Kharj, KSA (with 45 days up at Al Jaber AB in Kuwait). My remaining month or so at Sultan was as OIC of the 4404 Wing Force Protection Cell. I have round metal objects and decorations and photographs, too. My commanders were Steve Runyan and Pete Courtney while there. Oh golly! Let's not forget that I worked a lot with Columbus OH FBI agent Les Szasz!I went on terminal leave from active duty in April 1999 and took 30 days leave in Europe, then returned to my home state, California.
The following spring I began working as an anti-terrorism security consultant and traveled the world on that job until summer of 2005. This included service in Iraq during the war, and a few times in Afghanistan during those hostilities, as well as Sudan and Pakistan and other wonderful places around the globe. Got photos of all this, too, by golly!
Currently, I hold a private investigator's license in the State of California: #26248, firm name "Special Collections" of which I am 'Owner/Operator'
I am never unwilling to clarify my service in the security of my fellow countrymen and am most happy to illuminate the facts for you, Sweet Pea!
Walter Bosley
---------- Post added at 02:17 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:51 AM ----------
My article on what my father told me appeared in FATE Magazine, April 2005, Page 26, titled 'The Other Paradigm' and published under my pseudonym 'E.A.Guest' because my employment was sensitive enough at the time to not publish it under my own name. The article appeared in FATE's 'Best of Roswell' hardcover.
My Disneyland book can be found at the following link:
Latitude 33:Key to the Kingdom Just scroll down, you'll see the cover graphic link...
I will email my DD214 to Gene and he can load it here for me...
More to follow...
Walter Bosley
---------- Post added at 02:36 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:17 AM ----------
Oh yes, might I provide a little critique...?
When a regular listener of a podcast or member of any forum such as The Paracast, one might not want to refer to others' experiences and theories as 'bullshit' because, quite frankly, EVERYTHING here could be classified as bullshit. It is actually quite amusing to me to see such responses here from people who will, in the same message (sometimes the very same sentence!) turn around and profess that the idea a known earthbound, historical state such as Germany may have developed technology that remains secret to this day is utter nonsense BUT large headed grey men from Zeta Reticuli are far more reasonable an explanation for flying things in the skies a mere two years after World War 2. If you don't see my point, you don't want to (you don't have to agree with it...). (That said, I acknowledge Farrell could be wrong... I just find his theory very reasonable...) I don't mean to appear to pick on Paul's reply about the Nazi theory; it's actually thought out, whether I agree with him or not. I simply used one example to make my point that we ALL talk about potentially 'nutty' things, so we should at least generally refrain from making hypocrites of ourselves.
Personally, like Paul, I don't really care very much about Roswell anymore.
I suggest those who have a hard time believing what they hear me or anyone here say go out and start investigating these things yourself. I don't mean sit on your computer or just read someone else's book. I mean get out there and personally dig into some related mystery near you. Actually, physically, visit sites. Interview people face to face. Do some sort of field research and don't tell anyone all the details of what you find right off. Work on it a while, months, maybe a year. You will either prove yourself right, or you won't... But until you do, you're actually just a blowhard...and you know it. Those of us who have gone out there know it, too
Get out there like Chris. He'll tell you what field research is like...
Walter Bosley
SoCalGNX
SoCalGNX
Interesting episode. Some things came to mind - 33 is considered a "master number" in numerology. Its not my thing so I can't explain it but I have heard that from those who are into it. Next is the fact that I have lived in at least two different cities on the 33 latitude. Never felt much of anything out of the ordinary in either of them. Bosley was interesting enough but a bit all over the map. Would have like the episode more if he had stayed on several topics and not brought so many things into the conversation.
Walter Bosley
Paranormal Adept
I'm all over the map because my experiences are diverse. Personally, I reject the conventional wisdom of our times that one must be a specialist and only be in one place on the 'map'. Is anyone's life in one place on the 'map'?? I wouldn't want mine to be. The fact is, these phenomena we discuss here ARE ALL OVER THE MAP themselves! There is no such thing as simply a UFO phenomenon independent of other seemingly unrelated phenomena, not when you look close enough. I realize I'm having an experience, like many others before me, so wide in scope that it's daunting for those who must have a neat answer in a tidy box.
I notice when people make statements like 'all over the map', it's a non-specific generalization meant to cast doubt upon the target's credibility while masking the caster's lack of any real analysis on any points.
I am terrible at expressing erudite thought-provoking analysis in the style of the day, nor am I astute at sounding intellectual. I simply experience.
Here is the truth, like it or not: No one learns the truth who does not get out there and have a fully dimensional and very personal experience with the truth. You are NOT going to EVER really get the truth you demand from anyone on a podcast or from a book. There will be NO DISCLOSURE via the media. NONE. It's a fantasy. You will NOT find the truth here or there. These forums are a place for people of similar interest to converse and share data and that's it. There is no completely satisfying truth to be found here. There are those who simply want to express a confidence they may lack in their personal or professional lives. There are those with a topical axe to grind. There are those who like to stir a pot or two. There are those whose main interest is keeping a pet theory or agenda alive. What I find fascinating about the reality I have experienced is that truth doesn't care who does or does not believe it, it simply is.
It is really cool that the things I have indeed witnessed are summarily dismissed by people who weren't there. Completely understandable, to be sure, yet what amuses me is that I KNOW I'm telling the truth. Take for example (just an example) The Eiffel Tower. How many people who have never been to France believe the tower exists. They have seen photographs. People have seen it and talked about it. There is video. But they have not been there themselves, still they accept that. Now take the Moon. A dozen men we know of have been there. Most people accept what they say they saw there. The Eiffel is something millions have seen, the surface of the Moon up close, not so many. In either case, you cannot say you really KNOW either location until you go there and experience it yourself. There is something about ANY place that the experience of actually being there cannot be captured in any description or photograph or video. You cannot know the truth -- or falsity -- of anything until you go there yourself. How can anyone truly judge the validity of another's experience simply by listening to their account on a podcast? An opinion of something presented as truth is not the same as a thorough analysis, i.e. the result of personal, physical investigation.
I point out here that more people will reply to dissect how I said what I'm saying RATHER than go out and actually investigate on their own. Why? Because it's easier. Most people do this because their motive for participation is socialization, not truth-seeking.
Seek the truth and you will find yourself all over the map, too.
Oh, and ultimately, (and this is HILARIOUS, to me!) even after you DO go out and investigate reality yourself, you may not ever experience what someone else does and that does not mean their experience did not happen just because you did not experience it! HAHAHA! THAT is beautiful!
Walter
I notice when people make statements like 'all over the map', it's a non-specific generalization meant to cast doubt upon the target's credibility while masking the caster's lack of any real analysis on any points.
I am terrible at expressing erudite thought-provoking analysis in the style of the day, nor am I astute at sounding intellectual. I simply experience.
Here is the truth, like it or not: No one learns the truth who does not get out there and have a fully dimensional and very personal experience with the truth. You are NOT going to EVER really get the truth you demand from anyone on a podcast or from a book. There will be NO DISCLOSURE via the media. NONE. It's a fantasy. You will NOT find the truth here or there. These forums are a place for people of similar interest to converse and share data and that's it. There is no completely satisfying truth to be found here. There are those who simply want to express a confidence they may lack in their personal or professional lives. There are those with a topical axe to grind. There are those who like to stir a pot or two. There are those whose main interest is keeping a pet theory or agenda alive. What I find fascinating about the reality I have experienced is that truth doesn't care who does or does not believe it, it simply is.
It is really cool that the things I have indeed witnessed are summarily dismissed by people who weren't there. Completely understandable, to be sure, yet what amuses me is that I KNOW I'm telling the truth. Take for example (just an example) The Eiffel Tower. How many people who have never been to France believe the tower exists. They have seen photographs. People have seen it and talked about it. There is video. But they have not been there themselves, still they accept that. Now take the Moon. A dozen men we know of have been there. Most people accept what they say they saw there. The Eiffel is something millions have seen, the surface of the Moon up close, not so many. In either case, you cannot say you really KNOW either location until you go there and experience it yourself. There is something about ANY place that the experience of actually being there cannot be captured in any description or photograph or video. You cannot know the truth -- or falsity -- of anything until you go there yourself. How can anyone truly judge the validity of another's experience simply by listening to their account on a podcast? An opinion of something presented as truth is not the same as a thorough analysis, i.e. the result of personal, physical investigation.
I point out here that more people will reply to dissect how I said what I'm saying RATHER than go out and actually investigate on their own. Why? Because it's easier. Most people do this because their motive for participation is socialization, not truth-seeking.
Seek the truth and you will find yourself all over the map, too.
Oh, and ultimately, (and this is HILARIOUS, to me!) even after you DO go out and investigate reality yourself, you may not ever experience what someone else does and that does not mean their experience did not happen just because you did not experience it! HAHAHA! THAT is beautiful!
Walter
SoCalGNX
SoCalGNX
I notice when people make statements like 'all over the map', it's a non-specific generalization meant to cast doubt upon the target's credibility while masking the caster's lack of any real analysis on any points.
The podcast was not as satisfactory as it could have been had you narrowed the scope of it and not covered so much ground. I think there were several areas that could have been expanded on instead of hobbling off to the next topic. This was very disappointing. "All over the map" refers to the topics covered instead of your "credibility". Since none of my comments had a scintilla of anything to do with your "credibility" so it is puzzling why you would bring that up. I am also puzzled about the length and breadth of your response; it also has nothing to do with my comment. I had considered purchasing your book but after viewing your comments, I won't bother.
The podcast was not as satisfactory as it could have been had you narrowed the scope of it and not covered so much ground. I think there were several areas that could have been expanded on instead of hobbling off to the next topic. This was very disappointing. "All over the map" refers to the topics covered instead of your "credibility". Since none of my comments had a scintilla of anything to do with your "credibility" so it is puzzling why you would bring that up. I am also puzzled about the length and breadth of your response; it also has nothing to do with my comment. I had considered purchasing your book but after viewing your comments, I won't bother.
Fault the hosts then, not the guest.
Walter Bosley
Paranormal Adept
First of all, SoCal, I wasn't only referring to your comments. Second, you address your above reply to me and I'm not the host of the show. It is the host's responsibility to keep the show on a particular course. Third, I was attempting to reply to a LOT of criticism of my credibility in general, not just respond to your specific comments in an academic fashion suiting your requirements. The length and breadth of my response is simply my attempt to clarify myself and be involved in the conversation, however, I can provide simple one line replies in the future for easier comprehension.
The problem in general here is that we all discuss a lot of things lacking evidence or proof. If you look close enough, you'll find the things you are more interested in have no more credible evidence than the things I discuss. It's the same for just about everything in the paranormal. Any time someone says 'Here is proof!' or 'There is evidence!' there is no lack of naysayers coming forth to question it. All it takes is for one guy to say 'This is campfire bullshit!' and several others follow. Whether it's your pet topic or mine. The biggest problem is more time is spent flinging shit at each other than any real discussion, and debate is often confused for discussion.
Some people, like Greg Bishop, will listen and say, 'I'm not able to accept that, but I can discuss it with you and see your logic...', while too many will say (AND I PARAPHRASE HERE) 'When someone lies to me about one thing, I don't give them a chance to tell me anything else'. The accusation that I am lying is an arbitrary conclusion, and generally negative in its tone. I am taking a lot of heat from a handful of you and I think my response was rather less aggressive than a fair portion of what I got. Don't get me wrong, I'm not so bothered as you'd like to assume. On the contrary...
So Cal, I wouldn't have expected you to buy my book. You're not inclined to be open to it anyway, so that's an empty statement. I don't think you intended to buy it in the first place, but that sounded like a good way to end your reply in a superior position so you went for it. I understand. There are enough people interested in it, so no big loss there.
Generally, it's a waste of time arguing with certain personalities in forums.
I find it fascinating the just-short-of-vitriol reactions to what I shared, as if my experiences are in the realm of something some of you hate. It's there under the surface of the replies. It amuses me because we are complete strangers and even people who know me well, whom you otherwise respect, tell you I'm sincere. Yet my experiences seem to annoy some of you. That's interesting.
Someone even expressed distrust of me because they didn't like the way I laughed! Ha!
Really?
---------- Post added at 02:33 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:47 AM ----------
I'm done discussing differences of opinion on my credibility. Such judgments are mostly subjective anyway. If anyone is interested in discussing my experiences with me in an interested fashion, feel free to contact me
The problem in general here is that we all discuss a lot of things lacking evidence or proof. If you look close enough, you'll find the things you are more interested in have no more credible evidence than the things I discuss. It's the same for just about everything in the paranormal. Any time someone says 'Here is proof!' or 'There is evidence!' there is no lack of naysayers coming forth to question it. All it takes is for one guy to say 'This is campfire bullshit!' and several others follow. Whether it's your pet topic or mine. The biggest problem is more time is spent flinging shit at each other than any real discussion, and debate is often confused for discussion.
Some people, like Greg Bishop, will listen and say, 'I'm not able to accept that, but I can discuss it with you and see your logic...', while too many will say (AND I PARAPHRASE HERE) 'When someone lies to me about one thing, I don't give them a chance to tell me anything else'. The accusation that I am lying is an arbitrary conclusion, and generally negative in its tone. I am taking a lot of heat from a handful of you and I think my response was rather less aggressive than a fair portion of what I got. Don't get me wrong, I'm not so bothered as you'd like to assume. On the contrary...
So Cal, I wouldn't have expected you to buy my book. You're not inclined to be open to it anyway, so that's an empty statement. I don't think you intended to buy it in the first place, but that sounded like a good way to end your reply in a superior position so you went for it. I understand. There are enough people interested in it, so no big loss there.
Generally, it's a waste of time arguing with certain personalities in forums.
I find it fascinating the just-short-of-vitriol reactions to what I shared, as if my experiences are in the realm of something some of you hate. It's there under the surface of the replies. It amuses me because we are complete strangers and even people who know me well, whom you otherwise respect, tell you I'm sincere. Yet my experiences seem to annoy some of you. That's interesting.
Someone even expressed distrust of me because they didn't like the way I laughed! Ha!
Really?
---------- Post added at 02:33 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:47 AM ----------
I'm done discussing differences of opinion on my credibility. Such judgments are mostly subjective anyway. If anyone is interested in discussing my experiences with me in an interested fashion, feel free to contact me
The Pair of Cats
a.k.a Philip Deane
In some forms of numerology 33 is considered a master number.
Walter. Have you had any formal training in Remote Viewing and who and where did you train?
Thanks for your very interesting anecdotes and keep up the good work!
trainedobserver
Paranormally Disenchanted
To misquote a very old commercial ..."The mind is a terrible thing."
Wouldn't it be more accurate for you to say that you saw what appeared to be an image of a something that looked like a "goddess" of myth burned onto the side of a mountain? People hallucinate all the time for various reasons such as fatigue, stress, chemical imbalance, and so forth. I would hazard to say that everyone has seen or thought they have seen things only to realize the pattern recognition machine in their heads has made a mistake at one time or another in their lives. Perhaps you did experience some sort of hallucination that has often been interpreted as a "vision" by mystics and what have you, but certainly you must realize that this most likely was a brain hiccup and not a real event. If you think it was an actual event ...why?
Angel of Ioren
Friendly Skeptic
Well, there is that image of the virgin mary burned into a grilled cheese sandwich.
It's called paradolia. People tend to see something significant when it isn't actually there.
trainedobserver
Paranormally Disenchanted
Realizing I might be accused of being a nit-picker I have to say this about that.
Actually Science is the acquisition of knowledge through the application of the scientific method which is, to quote Webster's "principles and procedures for the systematic pursuit of knowledge involving the recognition and formulation of a problem, the collection of data through observation and experiment, and the formulation and testing of hypotheses." Pseudoscience, a system of theories, assumptions, and methods erroneously regarded as scientific, is often confused for real science. Real science has data gathered through controlled experiments designed around a working hypothesis. If done correctly experiments should attempt to both disprove or break the hypothesis as well confirm them. To simply attempt to "prove" a theory isn't enough, you have to try your best to disprove your theory through controlled experimentation. Also just coming up with a theory isn't science, you have to test it which invariably leads to a reformulation of the hypothesis in cyclic manner until you've exhausted the available options and gathered sufficient data that supports or disproves it. Scientific knowledge unlike religious or faith-based knowledge is open to change based on new data gathered through the scientific method and is therefore infinitely superior. So to say science is "much theory" ignores that real science is more truly "much experimentation."
Walter Bosley
Paranormal Adept
It wasn't an hallucination.
You know, the only reason I got into this conversation was because Greg Bishop told me about the reactions to my appearance on the show. I thought it might clarify my position and maybe inspire a discussion. I really don't know how to effectively debate with some of you, nor do I want to. I shared real experiences and you simply can't believe them, nor even entertain them.
It reaches a point where if I say the sky is blue, you'll say it's green just to to be contrary. It's a waste of time. Doesn't change what I experienced. Call it a 'brain hiccup', if that categorizes it easily for you. That is not what it was.
My question to you and others is: Just what paranormal activity qualifies as legitimate to you? And if everything is just an hallucination or a brain hiccup, why are you here?
At this point, I've said all I can. If Greg and Gene would like to step in and comment on my behalf, I invite them to. Gene invited me onto his show. I didn't pay attention to this thread until Greg suggested I should. There is nothing more for me to say and I don't want to reduce the conversation any further. I get it. A portion of the Paracast audience doesn't appreciate my experience being shared. That's the way it is. None of you will go into the field yourselves, none of you will be open to certain things enough to HONESTLY explore the possibility. You are pre-disposed.
I learned the Dames protocols of remote viewing from discs provided to me by a guy named Jef Harvey. I had immediate positive results. Shortly after that, I began to realize that the strict protocol was not necessary. That was after five months of doing it every day. In that time, I made some discoveries that were startling to me. Things you would not be interested in. What followed were different experiences with various phenomena. These you would not be interested in either, as you have demonstrated. You see the name Dames and you will undoubtedly throw out the baby with the bath water. I don't know him personally, nor do I respect what I've heard or seen. All I can tell you is that a man sent me the discs, I applied them, and it works.
Of course, it's all just an hallucination...
Again, I invite Greg and Gene to jump in here because they have had me on their shows more than once, so they must find something I say worthwhile and possibly credible.
I have been honest and sincere with everything I've shared. I must tell you that you are dead wrong about any 'brain hiccups' or hallucinations.
If you're so insistent about evidence and proof and credibility, why are you here? I say as I said before that no topic to be found here provides that, yet you insist with me. Interesting. Is it because I'm not talking about UFOs? I'm truly curious. See, the only answers you'll ever get on anything paranormal is that which you personally experience. There will NEVER be a book or documentary or podcast that will EVER provide what you demand in the way of proof. You are going to have to get out there and be willing to search for the truth and reality yourself. You are going to have to become the one who provides the evidence to satisfy your criteria, because you will not allow yourself to honestly entertain or consider the testimony of others. This is what I've learned through doing these shows. I was once like you on many subjects in the paranormal. Until I went out and learned for myself. And the hilarious little truth is that when you find it, no one believes you! THAT is the truest nature of the paranormal. It will not reveal nor verify itself to the collective -- it WILL show itself to the individual who seeks it out. Those who do are vilified by those who won 't.
Since there is no one who wants to discuss my experience in terms other than "it could not have happened" the way interpreted it, this circular debate is pointless. We must agree that some of you don't believe it. OK. Doesn't change anything.
Walter
You know, the only reason I got into this conversation was because Greg Bishop told me about the reactions to my appearance on the show. I thought it might clarify my position and maybe inspire a discussion. I really don't know how to effectively debate with some of you, nor do I want to. I shared real experiences and you simply can't believe them, nor even entertain them.
It reaches a point where if I say the sky is blue, you'll say it's green just to to be contrary. It's a waste of time. Doesn't change what I experienced. Call it a 'brain hiccup', if that categorizes it easily for you. That is not what it was.
My question to you and others is: Just what paranormal activity qualifies as legitimate to you? And if everything is just an hallucination or a brain hiccup, why are you here?
At this point, I've said all I can. If Greg and Gene would like to step in and comment on my behalf, I invite them to. Gene invited me onto his show. I didn't pay attention to this thread until Greg suggested I should. There is nothing more for me to say and I don't want to reduce the conversation any further. I get it. A portion of the Paracast audience doesn't appreciate my experience being shared. That's the way it is. None of you will go into the field yourselves, none of you will be open to certain things enough to HONESTLY explore the possibility. You are pre-disposed.
I learned the Dames protocols of remote viewing from discs provided to me by a guy named Jef Harvey. I had immediate positive results. Shortly after that, I began to realize that the strict protocol was not necessary. That was after five months of doing it every day. In that time, I made some discoveries that were startling to me. Things you would not be interested in. What followed were different experiences with various phenomena. These you would not be interested in either, as you have demonstrated. You see the name Dames and you will undoubtedly throw out the baby with the bath water. I don't know him personally, nor do I respect what I've heard or seen. All I can tell you is that a man sent me the discs, I applied them, and it works.
Of course, it's all just an hallucination...
Again, I invite Greg and Gene to jump in here because they have had me on their shows more than once, so they must find something I say worthwhile and possibly credible.
I have been honest and sincere with everything I've shared. I must tell you that you are dead wrong about any 'brain hiccups' or hallucinations.
If you're so insistent about evidence and proof and credibility, why are you here? I say as I said before that no topic to be found here provides that, yet you insist with me. Interesting. Is it because I'm not talking about UFOs? I'm truly curious. See, the only answers you'll ever get on anything paranormal is that which you personally experience. There will NEVER be a book or documentary or podcast that will EVER provide what you demand in the way of proof. You are going to have to get out there and be willing to search for the truth and reality yourself. You are going to have to become the one who provides the evidence to satisfy your criteria, because you will not allow yourself to honestly entertain or consider the testimony of others. This is what I've learned through doing these shows. I was once like you on many subjects in the paranormal. Until I went out and learned for myself. And the hilarious little truth is that when you find it, no one believes you! THAT is the truest nature of the paranormal. It will not reveal nor verify itself to the collective -- it WILL show itself to the individual who seeks it out. Those who do are vilified by those who won 't.
Since there is no one who wants to discuss my experience in terms other than "it could not have happened" the way interpreted it, this circular debate is pointless. We must agree that some of you don't believe it. OK. Doesn't change anything.
Walter
- Status