Bishop, Bosley - May 30th

[trainedobserver]

It wasn't an hallucination.

So what are you trying to say here then? You believe a goddess (who?) presented herself to you (why?) by actually burning an image of herself in the side of a mountain (how?) Is it still there or did it disappear?

I shared real experiences and you simply can't believe them, nor even entertain them.

I never said I didn't believe you experienced something and my total disbelief in gods and goddesses aside, I certainly entertained the notion ... I just don't see any evidence that anything actually happened outside of your skull. I've seen some strange things myself, however I have always been able to deconstruct them and come to some rational explanation of what was more "probable." Is it more probable that a "goddess" manifested herself for your edification or did your brain misinterpret reality for a few moments?

And if everything is just an hallucination or a brain hiccup, why are you here?

Just because I recognize the brains ability to misrepresent and misinterpret the information supplied to it doesn't mean that I think "everything is just an hallucination or a brain hiccup" for Pete's sake.

I have been honest and sincere with everything I've shared. I must tell you that you are dead wrong about any 'brain hiccups' or hallucinations.

So you are under the impression that because you are being honest and sincere that we should accept your interpretation of your experience as the only possible one? On what do you base your belief that an actual goddess burned her image in a side of a mountain for you? I'm not trying to be confrontational I'm just asking a logical and reasonable question. On what do you base your belief that it wasn't entirely a brain event as opposed to a supernatural being performing what amounts to a miracle?

If you're so insistent about evidence and proof and credibility, why are you here?

This is a serious question? I'm here, like many others, because I have an interest in high strangeness (mostly UAP) and not to blindly accept anyone's interpretation of it. You cannot honestly expect to make an unqualified statement such as you made about the goddess and not get a question or two about it.

Tell me Walter what was so offensive about my asking, "Wouldn't it be more accurate for you to say that you saw what appeared to be an image of a something that looked like a "goddess" of myth burned onto the side of a mountain?"

Rick

 

[Walter Bosley]

Rick,

I have never been into debate. I'm not good at it. I disagree with your suggestions as to what I experienced. I probably never should have shared any of it in the first place, to be honest. As Isis says, 'Tell no one'... And no, it was not Isis whose image appeared on the mountainside.

You say yourself you don't believe in gods and such, well, there you go. That said, in your mind, I MUST have experienced something only in 'my skull'.

This is pointless.

Go find your own answers. Mine are clearly meant for me. They don't apply to you. That is the truest nature of high strangeness. I disagree with the argument that therefore it must be imaginary or hallucinatory. It is very real. It knows how to hide in plain sight. Whatever there is in my presentation or statements that you can't accept as presented I can do nothing about. I'm not writing a book about this, so I'm not telling you to go buy any book. I'm selling nothing on this, just sharing what happened to me. There is a LOT I am not telling about all the related phenomena I've experienced and that convinced me that it has been real. I'm not interested in understanding or discerning what you ultimately think about these things. I couldn't possibly. I shared some stuff publicly for the first time and it's just too out there for people. OK. Lesson learned. Big mistake, because I can't explain it sufficiently on your terms. Sorry, I just can't.

I do not know how to answer your questions. I can only tell you that you might best answer them by seeking them yourself. You're going to have to be open in a way you might not think you want to be. You might have to be willing to face a new logic, a reality that does not fit the model you prefer. It is impossible for anything I say or could think to say to convince you that my experience is what I claim it to be. Impossible. You're just going to have to find the answers personally. You are going to have to earn the answers you seek. What do I mean by earn? Show the answers that you are worthy of them revealing themselves. Intellectual debate is one-dimensional relative to the full spectrum of reality.

Set what others think about you aside. Set what YOU think about you aside. ASK to be shown. Maybe it won't work for you. I couldn't possibly know.

I don't know what else to say.

 

[trainedobserver]

Intellectual debate is one-dimensional relative to the full spectrum of reality.

Sure it is ... sure it is. What is the alternative I wonder? Unintelligent monologues proposing unsupported theories and notions blindly accepted on faith and the good intentions of the speaker? That's really advanced understanding and civilization in the past hasn't it?

Well Walter, if you are unable or unwilling to articulate the basis for your beliefs or explain yourself beyond "It wasn't a hallucination" any discussion with you is entirely pointless. At least when I seriously and whole-heartedly believed in the supernatural I was ready to discuss the basis of my beliefs with anyone who cared to ask. And yes, I have gone the route you suggest for over 30 years (I think I gave it enough time) and it is a dead-end in my experience. The key to understanding the universe around us is "real science" and rational thought not superstition and blind faith. Believe it not at your own peril.

(I guess I was supposed to confine my comments to, "Wow, a goddess ... coOOOool." "What was she wear'n?")

P.S. None of your images come through. And yes, you should post a photograph of the mountain image.

 

[paraschtick]

Interesting i too

Please please please could you edit your reply before posting, kieran? It really isn't necessary to post the entirety of a quote ...

Rant over ... thanks in advance.

paraschtick

ps whatever crashed at Roswell may have been something Nazi as Joseph Farrell says but it may not have been a flying saucer in the usual sense. Even Dr Farrell doesn't claim the Nazis had flying saucers but were working on extremely advanced technologies. So it may have been an Unidentified Crashed Object rather than a flying saucer (remember Kenneth Arnold never really saw a "flying saucer" per se ...)

 

[The Pair of Cats]

Walter.
Welcome to the wonderful world of the Paracast Forums!!?? lol Yes unfortunately you'll meet a bevvy of folks who worship in the temple of the Scientists and insist that every perceived paranormal experience has an instant rational and scientific explanation and this even applies to their own experiences. I suppose you can't blame them. Having a paranormal experience is scary for some people and they need something rational and concrete to settle their troubled mind and like for many on these forums "Science" is the new religion and as in mediaeval times, when people would run to the church for salvation , they now run to the scientists to save them. And if they can't quite believe that what happened to them could be paranormal then they aint gonna believe you or i if we say we we had a paranormal experience.

And if they choose to not believe someone and their stories, then that is their right too i suppose. Unfortunately science has no way of measuring a paranormal experience. All they can do is say stuff like " oh no you were just hallucinating!" or "..it was group hysteria!", " it was swamp gas!", or my favorite " no you didn't really see a....what you really saw was...".
And to those ready to jump down my throat, no you shouldn't just believe someone because they told you, you should always be sceptical and in the end if you feel that you can't believe this or that person then that is your right.

In the end it is useless arguing with these people. They just like to tell you what you saw. They are not willing to believe that you had an unexplained experience because to them there is no such thing as an unexplained experience, after all science can explain everything. .

Personally i like hearing your anecdotes as some of them tie in with experiences that I have had. I don't necessarily believe all of your stories, some remain in my gray basket. But please don't be discouraged by the non believers and their incessant belief that there has to be a rational and mundane explanation for all of your experiences, feel free to post your experiences.
As some great person recently said " Don't Tell me What I Saw!"

 

[Walter Bosley]

Trained Observer: Define basis in this context...
Thirty years and you honestly experienced nothing even slightly convincing?? Bummer. OK, if you didn't, you didn't. That's fair.

At the time of the experience of what I saw on the mountain, I was investigating the history of an establishment associated with some criminal activity in my area. While there, I discovered a physical feature of the place that was interestingly relative to other research I had done. It was a gazebo roof structure the same dimensions as the cover over the carousel at Disneyland (of which I have written about). OK, I thought maybe this was a standard of constructing gazebo roofs, no big deal. Then I strolled around the grounds and found another interesting thing. It was painted on a slab of concrete once used as a basketball court though the hoops were long gone. This slab or court was connected to the patio area where the gazebo roof thing stood by a concrete sidewalk. The pattern painted on the slab I initially assumed was some sort of foursquare court or some such similar thing. It was interesting because it was primary colors and had some curious marks and patterns similar to some markings in Enochian magic, such as you'd find in Solomon's Key. It was while standing in the center of this court that I looked up, to get a sense of distance in feet from the gazebo thing, and I saw the image of the goddess burned across the face of the lowland mountain beyond. The terrain was mostly dry then, so mostly yellow in color -- except the image was a dark brown. Not a burn like from fire, more like that shade of brown a wood-burning kit makes. I live in this area and have watched the mountainsides burn many times and it leaves them black -- and there had been no fires neither there nor recently. But there she was, her image -- head and shoulders plus the symbol that identifies her. Yeah, I thought, 'You gotta be fuckin' kidding!' Another strange thing about this place: It's across the street from an apartment complex I lived in with my first wife in 1987-88, in which I had experienced some very strange phenomena back then over 20 years before.

Subsequent to this, I and an associate went to Disneyland on separate occasions and each personally paced out the carousel to be as certain as possible. Same dimensions and even the same number of poles supporting it. I also followed up on the painting on the court and have as yet not found any foursquare court that looks like this one. But here's the deal: the gazebo roof thing is probably just that, something used for outdoor events at this place, nothing mysterious. The painted court might very well be just some foursquare or other court game somewhat unique to the place, but nothing strange in itself. But the fact that while standing in the exact center of it, in the middle of the afternoon (it was between 1 and 2 o'clock), I saw this image on the mountain struck me as damned odd. But there she was, head and shoulders, eyes nose mouth, hair and her symbol just above to the right. There is no school against that mountain, therefore no mascot put there by students -- and no school in this area has the goddess as its mascot. No town, nothing.

That is what happened.

Phil: Appreciate you weighing in! If I have learned ANYTHING about things paranormal, I've learned they can evade scientific discrimination and do so with glee... To assume nothing exists that can't be measured, defined or contained within scientific principles is to limit one's experience of reality... at one's own peril, I might add...

Maybe if someone had first asked me to elaborate on the details of the experience I'd have done a better job responding. I was told by Greg Bishop that I ought to check out the reaction and I went directly to addressing that... Maybe they did and I missed it! I've had a LOT of strangeness in the last three years, so I'm trying to process it all still...

 

[Kieran]

Please please please could you edit your reply before posting, kieran? It really isn't necessary to post the entirety of a quote ...

Rant over ... thanks in advance.

paraschtick

ps whatever crashed at Roswell may have been something Nazi as Joseph Farrell says but it may not have been a flying saucer in the usual sense. Even Dr Farrell doesn't claim the Nazis had flying saucers but were working on extremely advanced technologies. So it may have been an Unidentified Crashed Object rather than a flying saucer (remember Kenneth Arnold never really saw a "flying saucer" per se ...)

Ok i not a kid i come here to post my views not be lectured by someone i don' know. I will post how i see fit, if i want to post another forum members entire posting when i reply i will do so. Anyway that is my rant over.

 

[trainedobserver]

like for many on these forums "Science" is the new religion and as in mediaeval times

Oh really now. Tell me Phil have you used a micro-wave oven recently, driven a car, taken medicine, undergone surgery, or (ah-hem) used a computer recently? Or do you use some paranormal means to cook, transport yourself, deal with disease or communicate? The products of science are so ingrained in modern society that they are taken for granted. Your suggestion that science is a "religion" for me or anyone else for that matter is (trying to be nice) an extremely uninformed thing for you to suggest.

 

[Angel of Ioren]

Walter,

So this thread has turned into a science vs. faith debate.
As to why someone like me is here, it's for the debates. I can go to the JREF, skeptoid, or the SGU, but I pretty much share my views with them completely, so it's a little boring to agree with everyone, no? I do go to those forums as well, but I find myself posting in this one, since I have more people I can argue with

I can not understand why someone would chose something improbable (a goddess on a mountain) over something that is completely probable (pareidolia).

You seem sincere, well spoken,and intellegent, and I'm sure that you truly believe that's what you saw, but what makes your goddess more likely than the grilled cheese Jesus? The story of how you came to see it sounds like nothing more than coincidence. Of course, many will say I'm just being a non-believer when I say something like that.
What's wrong with going with what conventional wisdom says? I saw a shadow person once, of course it was out of the corner of my eye. Was it a ghost or some sort of entity? I could say that, or I could give the more realistic explanation that it was an actual shadow, or an optical illusion. Why some people chose to go the "paranormal" route is beyond me.
This one time, I was paralyzed in my bed, and there was some sort of presence; I know it was there. Was it aliens? The old hag? A malevolent spirit? It could be, but chances are it was sleep paralysis. However, sleep paralysis is SOOOO boring - aliens and ghosts are much more fun. Especially ones that completely ignore my wife and the cat at the foot of the bed.
I get into friendly debates all the time with people that swear that they saw a ghost or that a family member is sensitive to spirits, but no one has ever shown any proof.
People that paint me as closed minded are frustrating since I'll gladly change my tune if one proves something to me, which is what science is all about. So, any proof beyond your account? I'll gladly believe you then.
By the way, I am in no way trying to attack your integrity, I do think that you truly believe what you saw - I just don't think that you're approaching it the same way I would.

---------- Post added at 08:52 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:49 AM ----------

Ok i not a kid i come here to post my views not be lectured by someone i don' know. I will post how i see fit, if i want to post another forum members entire posting when i reply i will do so. Anyway that is my rant over.

Don't worry about it.
It's called skipping over the stuff you've read already, it doesn't take too much time. Quote as much as you want to - I doubt it bothers most people.

 

[trainedobserver]

That is what happened.

Thanks for the details. I'm a little surprised that it was so prosaic. I'll just table the other questions that your story causes to arise in my mind as I doubt they would be well received even though they are ones I would think a trained investigator such as yourself might be inclined to ask. As I have already expressed in a previous post, I did not question whether or not you "experienced" something, and you will note that I have never accused you of lying, but rather I suggested that there might be more than one explanation for your experience.

 

[Angel of Ioren]

Thanks for the details. I'm a little surprised that it was so prosaic. I'll just table the other questions that your story causes to arise in my mind as I doubt they would be well received even though they are ones I would think a trained investigator such as yourself might be inclined to ask. As I have already expressed in a previous post, I did not question whether or not you "experienced" something, and you will note that I have never accused you of lying, but rather I suggested that there might be more than one explanation for your experience.

Well said. That sums up the way I feel about this too.

 

[Xylo]

It wasn't an hallucination.

<snip>
Since there is no one who wants to discuss my experience in terms other than "it could not have happened" the way interpreted it, this circular debate is pointless. We must agree that some of you don't believe it. OK. Doesn't change anything.



Walter

I'll point you to my original post where I asked if your friend that was with you at Disneyland remembered and could verify your meeting of "Alfred" and also if you were alone during your sighting of the "goddess."

I've had some pretty strange experiences in my life as well, but most of them I downplay as dream/hallucination/tricks of the mind- even the ones that seemed pretty daggone real. So I don't doubt that you had some experiences, and that those experiences seemed 100% real. However, I doubt the actual nature of reality itself.

 

[Walter Bosley]

The practical technological products of science are a glorious thing, in general, and to be recognized and appreciated. However, there is a dogmatic side that those in or into science display and that can be unfortunate. One can appreciate what science and technology have brought to our lives while also recognizing that Phil has a valid point.

 

[Angel of Ioren]

The practical technological products of science are a glorious thing, in general, and to be recognized and appreciated. However, there is a dogmatic side that those in or into science display and that can be unfortunate. One can appreciate what science and technology have brought to our lives while also recognizing that Phil has a valid point.

What do you mean by dogmatic? Are you referring to people like James Randi and Carl Sagan that require actual evidence before they believe something? I prefer to use critical thinking to come up with answers.

---------- Post added at 02:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:11 PM ----------

Oh yeah, here's a great article about pareidolia:

Pareidolia You Are Not So Smart

Apart from that article, that site has some great articles about how our brain works and why we act the way we do. My favourite article is the one about fanboyism. I've never understood the ridiculous way we act when we try to defend the products we buy.

 

[Walter Bosley]

Tomato

---------- Post added at 11:41 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:39 AM ----------

Just for grins and chuckles and the education of the rest of us, which paranormal experiences fit your criteria as being real as interpreted...? Identify just one, as an exercise...

 

[Angel of Ioren]

Tomato

Really? Is that it? Wonderful. I guess you don't like people questioning you and you prefer when you can just talk.
No problem.

 

[trainedobserver]

However, there is a dogmatic side that those in or into science display and that can be unfortunate.

Real science isn't "dogmatic", in fact dogmatism is contrary to the fundamental tenants of science. It has been my experience that those who attempt to describe science in the language of religion have a gross misunderstanding of what science and the scientific method actually are. I find this extremely surprising coming from someone with your background and training Walter.

 

[Angel of Ioren]

Tomato

---------- Post added at 11:41 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:39 AM ----------

Just for grins and chuckles and the education of the rest of us, which paranormal experiences fit your criteria as being real as interpreted...? Identify just one, as an exercise...

So far, nothing paranormal (in the common meaning of the word, aka supernatural) has been proven to exist, so I can't name any. I'm looking forward to the day that someone wins the JREF's million dollar challenge. Maybe you can do it with your remote viewing?
Maybe I'm just being difficult. Sorry.

 

[Walter Bosley]

Angel, can't anyone ask YOU a question? That was sincere. I am honestly interested in what meets your criteria for a paranormal experience being real...

---------- Post added at 11:52 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:50 AM ----------

Are you serious? You are actually saying that the very nature of science precludes anyone being dogmatic in or about science? And that is somehow disparaging on my background and experience??

Wow...OK

 

[Angel of Ioren]

I wasn't really clear so I'll quote the JREF:

'At JREF, we offer a one-million-dollar prize to anyone who can show, under proper observing conditions, evidence of any paranormal, supernatural, or occult power or event. The JREF does not involve itself in the testing procedure, other than helping to design the protocol and approving the conditions under which a test will take place. All tests are designed with the participation and approval of the applicant. In most cases, the applicant will be asked to perform a relatively simple preliminary test of the claim, which if successful, will be followed by the formal test. Preliminary tests are usually conducted by associates of the JREF at the site where the applicant lives. Upon success in the preliminary testing process, the "applicant" becomes a "claimant." '

That would make me happy.
In terms of a UFO or a ghost sighting, it would have to be multiple witnesses with multiple photographic and video sources. And even with that, I would want to rule out all other explanations before going into the paranormal.

Paul Kimball has produced some interesting stuff along those lines, but we can't just say it's aliens outright - interesting yes, paranormal, not yet (at least for me).

That's as honest as I can be.