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Consciousness and the Paranormal — Part 3

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It does seem that you are fixed on the belief that everything that occurs in nature is random -- until we get to humans who reflect on their experiences and begin to think and act on the basis of what they understand. Thus we are "are all that and a bag of chips," as my daughter would say -- completely different from all of our forebears. I don't think that's true.

Not all theoretical scientists and other thinkers these days accept that hard Darwinian premise of 'randomness' as the 'rule' of nature. You will have many other thinkers to convince of your premises and presuppositions. You can find them among the critiques of Darwinism and Neo-Darwinism.

Our capacity for reflection on our prereflective experience in/of the world and our increasing ability to comprehend the various levels of consciousness and mind involved in what we think is the problem to be solved -- how mind emerges from our evolutionary history in a thousand, a million, a billion different ways, not in just one giant step. It seems to me that to make the case for HCT's giant step at the 'stage 4 construct', you need to identify great numbers of examples of types of development over eons of evolutionary time from the beginnings of awareness and seeking behavior that Panksepp sees in primitive organisms to the present state of our species and its fumbling attempts to understand itself.

We can manipulate genes, for better or worse, and without understanding the longterm consequences of doing so vis a vis nature's own evolutionary processes. We already have seen some near-catastrophic changes in bionanotechnology. We're most likely to escape evolution of our species entirely by producing a local world in which we cannot survive to evolve further.

But you do have to deal with learning capabilities provided in phenomenal experience all the way back, contentious or not for your theory, nicht wahr?


I think you will need to deal with those big subjects in the presentation of HCT to readers in general. It seems to me that to do so here in the forum would require writing half your book on these pages, which would probably be acceptable and do-able here, but I wonder why you would want to proceed that way.
Incidentally, I have written about learning before... its online.
You say Constance:
"It does seem that you are fixed on the belief that everything that occurs in nature is random"
Absolutely not! Don't know where you got that idea from.

As far as I am concerned, I have done the job of identifying the underlying unity. It is not possible for one person to explore the consequential explanations of the diversity. I engage to try to explain... but really, I think HCT is a very simple idea. The difficulty in presenting it, is actually unpicking all the intervening concepts that stand in for explanations. For instance, how much have we discussed Nagel and Jackson anti-physicalist arguments? It is as much about letting go/unlearning, as it is about understanding what HCT is.
Everyone understands now, "survival of the fittest". No explanation required, no book needs to be written. It is obvious (notwithstanding all the arguments one might raise about the details).
 
I'm not quite ready to answer 'yes'. 'Leads to' is too vague in my opinion. What else might enter in to changes/adaptations in the offspring of an organism by virtue of which it is not identical to its parents? And indeed can we claim that the parents are identical to one another? That's clearly not the case. So what you seem to be claiming relates to potential changes incipient in the 'mechanisms' of reproduction, realizations of combinations of some of a variety of potentials.

Lamarckism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

We moved away from blaming parents when we identified genetic causes of various conditions ... the parental high fat diet --> leading to overweight offspring and other results could swing things back ...

Can you point me to some of the articles critiquing Neo Darwinism that you've read?
 
Incidentally, I have written about learning before... its online.
You say Constance:
"It does seem that you are fixed on the belief that everything that occurs in nature is random"
Absolutely not! Don't know where you got that idea from.

As far as I am concerned, I have done the job of identifying the underlying unity. It is not possible for one person to explore the consequential explanations of the diversity. I engage to try to explain... but really, I think HCT is a very simple idea. The difficulty in presenting it, is actually unpicking all the intervening concepts that stand in for explanations. For instance, how much have we discussed Nagel and Jackson anti-physicalist arguments? It is as much about letting go/unlearning, as it is about understanding what HCT is.
Everyone understands now, "survival of the fittest". No explanation required, no book needs to be written. It is obvious (notwithstanding all the arguments one might raise about the details).

Actually we never did clear up that bit about the worlds fittest man being run over by a bus. ;-)
 
Incidentally, I have written about learning before... its online.
You say Constance:
"It does seem that you are fixed on the belief that everything that occurs in nature is random"
Absolutely not! Don't know where you got that idea from.

As far as I am concerned, I have done the job of identifying the underlying unity. It is not possible for one person to explore the consequential explanations of the diversity. I engage to try to explain... but really, I think HCT is a very simple idea. The difficulty in presenting it, is actually unpicking all the intervening concepts that stand in for explanations. For instance, how much have we discussed Nagel and Jackson anti-physicalist arguments? It is as much about letting go/unlearning, as it is about understanding what HCT is.
Everyone understands now, "survival of the fittest". No explanation required, no book needs to be written. It is obvious (notwithstanding all the arguments one might raise about the details).

Don't understand HCT yet so not ready to let go of Nagel ... And I have read Dowell but will re read it.
 
I'm not quite ready to answer 'yes'. 'Leads to' is too vague in my opinion. What else might enter in to changes/adaptations in the offspring of an organism by virtue of which it is not identical to its parents? And indeed can we claim that the parents are identical to one another? That's clearly not the case. So what you seem to be claiming relates to potential changes incipient in the 'mechanisms' of reproduction, realizations of combinations of some of a variety of potentials.
We have to stick to the questions as they are asked (sorry to be so Dominatix about it).
So, "And indeed can we claim that the parents are identical to one another?" That isn't implied in the question is it? So I have to ignore that. Provisos are accepted because they qualify the question.

"Leads to" is too vague. Very good.

Try this:
Replication does not lead to the evolution of mechanisms that make a difference to the survival potential of replicating species.
is "lead to" too vague, phrased in this manner?

If so, how about,

Q1. Replication is necessary for the evolution of mechanisms that make a difference to the survival potential of the replicating species?
 
We have to stick to the questions as they are asked (sorry to be so Dominatix about it).
So, "And indeed can we claim that the parents are identical to one another?" That isn't implied in the question is it? So I have to ignore that. Provisos are accepted because they qualify the question.

"Leads to" is too vague. Very good.

Try this:
Replication does not lead to the evolution of mechanisms that make a difference to the survival potential of replicating species.
is "lead to" too vague, phrased in this manner?

If so, how about,

Q1. Replication is necessary for the evolution of mechanisms that make a difference to the survival potential of the replicating species?

Dominatix? You won't believe what autocorrect does with that! (hint it has to do with "r")

We've got twenty more questions to go after this ??? How about we play 11 questions?
 
Incidentally, I have written about learning before... its online.
You say Constance:
"It does seem that you are fixed on the belief that everything that occurs in nature is random"
Absolutely not! Don't know where you got that idea from.

It's the general impression I've received from what you've been writing here recently. It might be a clue to discussion you'll need to develop in articulating HCT.

As far as I am concerned, I have done the job of identifying the underlying unity. It is not possible for one person to explore the consequential explanations of the diversity.

How is the diversity expressed in the universe we live in a consequence of "the underlying unity" of nature? What is "the underlying unity" that has maintained the integrity of the universe through its evolution from the theorized Big Bang to the present day? It seems to me that there must be a tendency toward unity, integration, balance in nature that persists despite proliferating changes, formations, developments in time. If so, we will likely find the core structure of nature at the quantum or subquantum levels. What do you think?

I engage to try to explain... but really, I think HCT is a very simple idea. The difficulty in presenting it, is actually unpicking all the intervening concepts that stand in for explanations. For instance, how much have we discussed Nagel and Jackson anti-physicalist arguments? It is as much about letting go/unlearning, as it is about understanding what HCT is.


What do you mean by "unpicking"? Do you mean that you believe all philosophical arguments against physicalism have been defeated and that we must all "let them go/unlearn" them if we are to understand HCT?


Everyone understands now, "survival of the fittest". No explanation required, no book needs to be written. It is obvious (notwithstanding all the arguments one might raise about the details).

I'm afraid that's less than words can say. "Fittest" in what sense, what meaning, what category of being? Do you think that 'survival of the fittest' also applies to ideas? If so, do you think that the current dominant conceptions of life, value, and reality are the fittest among all the possibilities that have been pursued or might be pursued?
 
That was reading I did some years ago, but I'll do a search for you.

Here's a good place to start:

Neo-Darwinism has failed as an evolutionary theory
22 May 1995

Darwinism is a theory of evolution based upon inherited variations in organisms and natural selection of fitter variants to produce species adapted to their habitats. Twentieth-century biology added a theory of inheritance, the science of genetics, to give Neo-Darwinism. In the past 20 years the techniques of genetics and molecular biology have converged to provide both a remarkably detailed understanding of the genes that define the molecular composition of any organism and the ability to transfer genes from one species to another.

There is no doubt about the importance of the insights that have resulted from this increased genetic and molecular focus. The problem is that the claims made for these revelations are frequently so misleading and distorted that the whole field becomes tarnished by exaggeration and real scientific problems are obscured. Biology then suffers. A widely quoted example with which many biologists agree is the description by Delisi (American Scientist) of what the human genome project will reveal about human development. "This collection of chromosomes in the fertilised egg constitutes the complete set of instructions for development, determining the timing and details of the formation of the heart, the central nervous system, the immune system, and every other organ and tissue required for life."

A colleague in the States who is a firm believer in the importance of genes in development and evolution says he uses the Delisi quotation in his developmental biology class to show the stupidity of the reductionist paradigm. So biology is a broad church that contains many points of view. But the most prominent public voices present the reductionist position. Richard Dawkins, a fervent adherent of extreme genetic reductionism, describes in The Blind Watchmaker a willow tree releasing seeds within which is the "DNA whose coded characters spell out specific instructions for building willow trees". For him the genes define the essence of life and the organism is just a survival machine built by genes for their own perpetuation. Steve Jones regards this as "the best general book about evolution since the second world war". And Lewis Wolpert delivers the same message as Dawkins: "DNA provides the programme which controls development of the embryo and brings about epigenesis" (The Triumph of the Embryo).

What is wrong with these statements is that they define scientific positions that need to be backed up by models that demonstrate precisely how a knowledge of genes in the developing organism will lead to an understanding of the three-dimensional form of the human heart or limb or eye, the arrangement of leaves on a plant and the organs of the flower, or the wings of a fruit fly. But this is not provided. The discussion always stops at the spatial patterns of gene products in developing organisms, if indeed it gets even that far. The crucial step of generating the actual three-dimensional structures that characterise the distinctive morphology of species is left unexplained.

To understand why organisms look the way they do we need models that involve physical forces as well as biological variables, organised to produce organisms with specific morphologies, as described in my book, How the Leopard Changed its Spots. To say there is a program in DNA that constructs the organism is to use a misleading shorthand or to fail to understand the problem. It is like saying that all you need to know to understand high-temperature superconductors is what they are made of and where the atoms are relative to one another. Try that on a physicist. And organisms are at least as complex as superconductors. Yet we are constantly being told that molecular analysis will reveal all. The rhetoric here frequently overwhelms the science, which is doubly unfortunate: the science is sufficiently exciting in its own right and does not need the hyperbole, while the problems it cannot address are being neglected.

Nowhere is this more evident than in the claim that Neo-Darwinism explains evolution. Evolution is about the origin of species, the emergence of new types of organism characterised by distinctive morphologies and behaviours. This requires a theory of organisms as life-cycles, including morphogenesis (how organisms of specific form are generated) and of their interactions with one another and the physical environment in producing communities and ecosystems. But far from concentrating on the development of theories of organisms and ecosystems, Neo-Darwinism concentrates on genes as the fundamental entities in biology.

This cannot succeed because it leaves out too much. Organisms are large-scale physical systems that grow and develop, run, fly, produce leaves and flowers, and generate patterns of relationships with each other. Some of them even love and write poetry. Genes do none of these things, and neither do molecules.

Neo-Darwinism has failed as an evolutionary theory that can explain the origin of species, understood as organisms of distinctive form and behaviour. In other words, it is not an adequate theory of evolution. What it does provide is a partial theory of adaptation, or microevolution (small-scale adaptive changes in organisms). It is partial in two senses. First, Neo-Darwinism assumes random genetic variation followed by selection, whereas there is now evidence for a role of directed mutation in adaptive response. That is, genes can evidently respond to environmental circumstances by non-random, adaptive mutation. And second, many of the adaptive "explanations" advanced for biological characteristics simply cannot be taken as serious science. In 1979, Steven Jay Gould and Richard Lewontin published a classic paper that ridiculed much of the adaptationist literature as constituting a "panglossian paradigm", Just So Stories of such dubious scientific value that they discredit the subject. For a few years after that, adaptationists watched their p's and q's more closely. However, the salutary influence of that paper has unfortunately diminished to the point where Just So Stories are again proliferating wildly. A recent example is why the hour-glass shape in women is an adaptive trait, determined by genes. Men select women with large hips and breasts because these are indicators of reproductive potential, or at least men think they are. Women who satisfy these criteria but do not have a small waist are simply fat, which, we are told, is not a good indicator of reproductive potential. Hence the selection of the hour-glass shape. You might think I overheard this in a pub, but it is in fact advanced as a serious proposition by Matt Ridley in The Red Queen following the original proposal by Low, Alexander, and Noonan in Ethology and Sociobiology. If this is science then Rudyard Kipling was a great scientist.

Adaptation is an important problem, but it is not the same as evolution. Still less is it the same as macroevolution, which is about large-scale evolutionary change: the emergence of algae, mosses, ferns, grasses, flowers, trees; of protozoa, sea urchins, octopus, fish, amphibia, birds, mammals. For these qualitative changes, the stuff of evolution, there is no adequate theory. A primary reason for this absence is the narrative style that has been adopted within biology since Darwin's re-description of the subject as an historical science. Species have come to be seen as individuals, the results of historical contingencies, so that the morphological relationships between species have become unintelligible because they are accidental, not necessary. And yet there is plenty of evidence for a deep level of structural order that underlies the taxonomic regularity of the biological realm, the systematic similarities and differences of species. This is the level of structural constraint that Gould and Lewontin were reminding us of: biological form cannot be explained away in functional (adaptational) terms, nor is any form possible. There is a long tradition in biology of seeking to understand this intrinsic order in terms of a theory of biological form and transformation that is now re-emerging from more sophisticated non-linear dynamic modelling of morphogenesis and a deeper understanding of the causal mechanisms involved.

It is clear biology needs a theory of organisms as self-organising systems that generate emergent order if evolution is to be understood. This is now a very real and exciting possibility, but it is an interdisciplinary task that requires mathematical, physical, and biological input. It simply cannot come from the study of genes and molecules alone, useful as this is.

There is another dimension of Neo-Darwinism that is also problematic. The analytical power of molecular genetics has resulted in a new expansion of Neo-Darwinism with a strongly applied, technological dimension. One manifestation of this is the project to identify every human gene, coordinated by the international Human Genome Organisation (HUGO), with associated squabbling over patent rights on potentially lucrative applications in the fields of medicine and designer gene engineering. The French geneticist Daniel Cohen has led the movement to have this information recognised by the United Nations as the property of humanity to use freely for any appropriate purpose. But 17 companies are now in a position to patent many of the 100,000 genes of the human body so that, unless patent rights are paid for use, they can withhold the information that would otherwise be valuable for medical research.

There are immense social and ethical issues involved. It is obvious extreme caution is required because of our ignorance of the genetic, biological, and ecological consequences of gene manipulation. Any applications should be governed by principles such as no use of the technology unless there is a clearly demonstrated need, extensive testing of safety before any application, and establishment of rigorous safety protocols on international movements of transgenics and their use in the field. There is a call for a moratorium on the large-scale release of genetically engineered organisms into the environment until such safety protocols have been put in place. Without this, we shall find that Neo-Darwinism is not only prone to misleading rhetoric and inadequate science, but its applications may result in ecologically dangerous agricultural applications.

Neo-Darwinism has failed as an evolutionary theory | General | Times Higher Education
 
Did you read Dreyfus' critique of Minsky?
I read an overview of his critiques of early AI philosophy/science on wikipedia. As I noted, there is a difference between intelligence and consciousness. Dreyfus disputed that all of human intelligence consisted of symbol manipulation, but he didn't argue that symbol manipulation wasnt something humans did. And interestingly, when he did note symbol manipulation, it involved consciousness.

Re HOT: Higher order thought, also higher order representation.

Higher-order theories of consciousness - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Higher-order theories of consciousness postulate that consciousness consists in perceptions, thoughts, or beliefs about first-order mental states.[1][2][3] In particular, phenomenal consciousness is thought to be higher-order representation of perceptual or quasi-perceptual contents, such as visual images.[1]

Higher-order theories are distinguished from other cognitive/representational accounts of consciousness which suggest that merely first-order mentality of certain sorts constitutes consciousness.[1]

The phenomenon of blindsight can perhaps be used to support this model. Individuals with blindsight report an absence of conscious visual awareness through one of their eyes, while at the same time being about to report information about objects located in front of the same eye.

Re "physics" of consciousness: None of the best models from the sciences of physics and biology can provide an explanation of why humans possess consciousness. When it comes to explaining the why, what, where, and how of consciousness objectively, philosophy is the best we've got.

Unless a purely subjective "physics" of consciousness is somehow developed, it seems that the best we can manage subjectively is to simply describe on an individual basis what it's like to be conscious. But I don't see how this alone can tell us anything definitive about the origin of consciousness nor how it relates to the brain.

I imagine that as we approach strong AI, and ethical questions about machine consciousness reach the mainstream, this subject will grow in importance.
 
Nagel's most recent book, Mind and Cosmos (which I believe you have purchased) also comes up in a search for critiques of Neo-Darwinism and is likely to make the most profound arguments. Here is amazon's description of the book:

"The modern materialist approach to life has conspicuously failed to explain such central mind-related features of our world as consciousness, intentionality, meaning, and value. This failure to account for something so integral to nature as mind, argues philosopher Thomas Nagel, is a major problem, threatening to unravel the entire naturalistic world picture, extending to biology, evolutionary theory, and cosmology.

Since minds are features of biological systems that have developed through evolution, the standard materialist version of evolutionary biology is fundamentally incomplete. And the cosmological history that led to the origin of life and the coming into existence of the conditions for evolution cannot be a merely materialist history, either. An adequate conception of nature would have to explain the appearance in the universe of materially irreducible conscious minds, as such.

Nagel's skepticism is not based on religious belief or on a belief in any definite alternative. In Mind and Cosmos, he does suggest that if the materialist account is wrong, then principles of a different kind may also be at work in the history of nature, principles of the growth of order that are in their logical form teleological rather than mechanistic.

In spite of the great achievements of the physical sciences, reductive materialism is a world view ripe for displacement. Nagel shows that to recognize its limits is the first step in looking for alternatives, or at least in being open to their possibility."

Mind and Cosmos: Why the Materialist Neo-Darwinian Conception of Nature Is Almost Certainly False: Thomas Nagel: 9780199919758: Amazon.com: Books
 
I read an overview of his critiques of early AI philosophy/science on wikipedia. As I noted, there is a difference between intelligence and consciousness. Dreyfus disputed that all of human intelligence consisted of symbol manipulation, but he didn't argue that symbol manipulation wasnt something humans did. And interestingly, when he did note symbol manipulation, it involved consciousness.

Re HOT: Higher order thought, also higher order representation.

Higher-order theories of consciousness - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Higher-order theories of consciousness postulate that consciousness consists in perceptions, thoughts, or beliefs about first-order mental states.[1][2][3] In particular, phenomenal consciousness is thought to be higher-order representation of perceptual or quasi-perceptual contents, such as visual images.[1]

Higher-order theories are distinguished from other cognitive/representational accounts of consciousness which suggest that merely first-order mentality of certain sorts constitutes consciousness.[1]

The phenomenon of blindsight can perhaps be used to support this model. Individuals with blindsight report an absence of conscious visual awareness through one of their eyes, while at the same time being about to report information about objects located in front of the same eye.

Re "physics" of consciousness: None of the best models from the sciences of physics and biology can provide an explanation of why humans possess consciousness. When it comes to explaining the why, what, where, and how of consciousness objectively, philosophy is the best we've got.

Unless a purely subjective "physics" of consciousness is somehow developed, it seems that the best we can manage subjectively is to simply describe on an individual basis what it's like to be conscious. But I don't see how this alone can tell us anything definitive about the origin of consciousness nor how it relates to the brain.

I imagine that as we approach strong AI, and ethical questions about machine consciousness reach the mainstream, this subject will grow in importance.

So ... no?
 
We have to stick to the questions as they are asked (sorry to be so Dominatix about it).
So, "And indeed can we claim that the parents are identical to one another?" That isn't implied in the question is it? So I have to ignore that. Provisos are accepted because they qualify the question.

"Leads to" is too vague. Very good.

Try this:
Replication does not lead to the evolution of mechanisms that make a difference to the survival potential of replicating species.
is "lead to" too vague, phrased in this manner?

Yes, for the same reason.


If so, how about,

Q1. Replication is necessary for the evolution of mechanisms that make a difference to the survival potential of the replicating species?

Better in that it leaves space for the question "what else is involved in the evolution of survival potentials in species?".
 
Alternative Q1 Replication does not lead to the evolution of mechanisms that make a difference to the survival potential of replicating species.

Yes, for the same reason.

Q1. Replication is necessary for the evolution of mechanisms that make a difference to the survival potential of the replicating species?
Better in that it leaves space for the question "what else is involved in the evolution of survival potentials in species?".

@Constance
Q1.Replication is necessary for the evolution of mechanisms that make a difference to the survival potential of the replicating species?
I'll take "better" to mean you agree (yes) unless you say otherwise then.
 
@smcder

So physics has no use for (free will and) consciousness (causal closure), and biology via TENS has no use for consciousness (it has no known function).

As noted by Nagel and others, this is a red flag. I'm all for exploring the idea that phenotypic evolution is driven by something deeper and more powerful then natural selection, i.e., natural teleology.

Could it be that the emergence and evolution of conscious minds in certain species is driven by a deeper process then natural selection? Natural selection as the main engine of evolution has been questioned without even considering consciousness.

So if the evolution of species (and the consciousness they possess) has been driven by some deeper principle or law than NS, what does this mean, if anything? Such a law could still be arbitrary, right? Even if the emergence of complex organisms with conscious mental states may be inevitable in our what-is, it may still be a result of intentionless parameters/laws of what-is, right?
 
No. I couldnt find an article by Dreyfus in which he critiques Minsky.

Google:

"dreyfus critique minsky"

Several results including the full text of "What Computers Can't Do" on archive.org. Also do a forum search - I posted in part deux, I deux believe.
 
The Secrets of Consciousness and the Problem of God | The Los Angeles Review of Books

But he misses, or nearly misses, the force of Nagel’s critique. Nagel’s deepest question about consciousness is not provoked by the sheer fact of conscious experience. It’s the plurality of consciousness that’s strange. No objective scientific account of all the elements in the universe could say why I am me and you are you. Objectively speaking, we could accept that there are many different conscious beings. But we don’t have the ghost of an idea of how there could be an objective explanation for the distribution of subjectivities among them. Why is my consciousness mine? Why isn’t your consciousness mine? The hard question of consciousness is less this question, “How can consciousness exist?” than the question of how there can be more than one. What is the principle of discrimination between them?
This particular question has never made sense to me. "Why is my consciousness mine?"

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding the question. Is the question as follows:

Person A and person B are standing in a field. Person A gets stung by a wasp. Person A feels pain. Why doesn't person B feel the pain instead?

Is that the question being asked here?
 
Google:

"dreyfus critique minsky"

Several results including the full text of "What Computers Can't Do" on archive.org. Also do a forum search - I posted in part deux, I deux believe.
Yes, I've seen that, but wasn't sure it dealt with Minsky and specifically the idea of how modeling may related to consciousness. I'll check it out.
 
@smcder

So physics has no use for (free will and) consciousness (causal closure), and biology via TENS has no use for consciousness (it has no known function).

As noted by Nagel and others, this is a red flag. I'm all for exploring the idea that phenotypic evolution is driven by something deeper and more powerful then natural selection, i.e., natural teleology.

Could it be that the emergence and evolution of conscious minds in certain species is driven by a deeper process then natural selection? Natural selection as the main engine of evolution has been questioned without even considering consciousness.

So if the evolution of species (and the consciousness they possess) has been driven by some deeper principle or law than NS, what does this mean, if anything? Such a law could still be arbitrary, right? Even if the emergence of complex organisms with conscious mental states may be inevitable in our what-is, it may still be a result of intentionless parameters/laws of what-is, right?

"So if the evolution of species (and the consciousness they possess) has been driven by some deeper principle or law than NS, what does this mean, if anything? Such a law could still be arbitrary, right? Even if the emergence of complex organismswith conscious mental states may be inevitable in our what-is, it may still be a result of intentionlessparameters/laws of what-is, right?"

I suppose you can get away with using "inevitable" and "intentionless" in the same sentence, but what is it you are wanting to be true and why?
 
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