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Consciousness and the Paranormal — Part 3

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@Soupie Extremely helpful comment. Really pleased with the questions and will make some changes. Will respond properly when I am at a computer tonight. My roving iPad out of commission at mo and my phone screen is too titchy

@smcder what's ur beef with the psycho movies. Not sure what u saying.

Have you seen any of these films?

Anthony Hopkins is an enormous talent and I think it was a British player who made the remark that after all his roles, he would best be remembered for playing a cannibal ... there was a similar comparison to several other British actors and actresses. Hopkins seemed to relish the role and I think it would be a lot of fun to play too! He brough his enormous charisma to the role.

I read the books and in the beginning Lecter has six fingers on each hand, the middle finger being duplicated, that is the most rare form of polydactyly and is a sign of evil (as are his reddish eyes and sharp, perfectly formed white teeth) ... so on his original appearance in the book Manhunter Lecter was simply the personification of evil ... as the books progressed he became an anti-hero and eventually seduces and marries the straght laced FBY agent Clarice Starling (a personfication of virginal innocence) ... and quits killing, his needs fulfilled ... all heavy handed tropes, no? By the way he became what he is because of his experiences in the second world war at the hands of some Eastern block soldiers and he generally only kills those what need killing, like the popular American TV series Dexter.

But we know now that serial killers are often born, not made. And they are anything but heroic. They usually aren't even very nice.

FBI — Serial Murder

I listened to an interview with John Douglas and he described the level of organization and preparation some of these "people" bring to their activities. Predator is misleading. Monster seems to be a more appropriate word, as does evil. They are certainly at the far end of human psychology.

So my beef is that we have romanticized evil. Serial killers are played by handsome blond actors and great British thespians. Two notable exceptions are

Henry: Portrait of a Serial Killer
and
Monster about Aileen Wournous, the female serial killer.

Oh and of course Fritz Lang's "M" where Peter Lorrie plays a child killer. But Lang's bigger critique in that film was of the Nazi thugs who would soon come to power.

In comparison - Carpenter's Halloweenis refreshingly simple and honest and isn't coy at all as to its villain's origins:

Laurie Strode (virgin) "He was the Boogeyman, wasn't he?"
Dr. Loomis (voice of reason, staring down into the spot where Michael Myers had lain (and is no longer) after being shot six time) "As a matter of fact, he was."

Now that is entertaining and sends no mixed messages, the killer is faceless and inhuman and the film doesn't play Stockholm syndrome with a naive public.
 
Thou art waxing extremely gloomy (and unnecessarily so) in the above statements I think. I see the intellectual world of the present as teeming with various ideas and approaches to understanding the nature of reality and presenting conflicting ideas about how our species (which by now constitutes the management of the planet's life, balance, and future) should negotiate the future. "Systematic thinking," if by this term you refer to closed-system, heavily presuppositional, thinking whether in science or the philosophy that follows it is certainly to be critiqued. And it's being critiqued by many individuals even within science and certainly in philosophy. I don't think we need to discard all the ideas of the past since some of them remain valid and usable to us in the present. We do need to discard presuppositions that predefine what thinking is and can be {or that never pursue the question of how consciousness and mind arise and develop in our species), presuppositions exemplified most fully in the materialism and objectivism still dominant in the current scientific paradigm.

You ask: "Doesn't what we want to be true tell us as truly as what we claim we can prove? (And why do we insist on a disheartening gap between the two?" I agree with you in this.

waxing gloomy

No no - not at all! I'm quite cheered at the prospect!

teeming ideas

Yes! And bringing out those very ideas is the point of the above posts. The essays are quite cheerful.

Systematic thinking

I do mean exactly that. It's rhetoric to say discard all ideas!

but

we must be willing to discard any given idea ... so effectively that means maintaining an attitude of willingness to discard all ideas.

It feels to me like philosophy could enter a phase like Dadaism, if its proponents didn't tend to be so serius!

The appearance of philosophically minded comedians is one herald.

As usual, Nietzsche was ahead - wanting to write a book of philosophy consisting entirely of jokes and songs!
 
McCarthy is a much better writer than King and isn't fawning and bullying his way for the critic's favor like King is (1. he has their favor and 2. he is reclusive) ... but I still don't understand the high acclaim he reads ... part of it does seem to be masochistic, his work is extremely dark and depressing and it seems a badge of honor to make it through Blood Meridian. It reminds me of the literary re-evaluation of the Marquis de Sade.

I do think that a form of masochism and even nihilism motivates the popularity of films and other representations such as these. The sociological recognition of increasing alienation and anomie in the mid-twentieth century was, I think, the first sign of increasing hopelessness in Westerners that leads to the impulse to confront and represent the worst, most debasing, most terrifying and destructive possibilities that can be imagined. I'm not well-informed about popular culture but I can say that, on occasions late at night when I feel like watching a film on television, what I find, scrolling through the programming guide, consists more than 90 percent of violent, terrifying, deeply disturbing movies. And I'm aware that there is also an increasing amount of this sort of 'entertainment' produced for television itself. I'm far from the only person who avoids this kind of thing, but evidently there are increasing numbers of people who seek it out. What's the answer to that problem?
 
I do think that a form of masochism and even nihilism motivates the popularity of films and other representations such as these. The sociological recognition of increasing alienation and anomie in the mid-twentieth century was, I think, the first sign of increasing hopelessness in Westerners that leads to the impulse to confront and represent the worst, most debasing, most terrifying and destructive possibilities that can be imagined. I'm not well-informed about popular culture but I can say that, on occasions late at night when I feel like watching a film on television, what I find, scrolling through the programming guide, consists more than 90 percent of violent, terrifying, deeply disturbing movies. And I'm aware that there is also an increasing amount of this sort of 'entertainment' produced for television itself. I'm far from the only person who avoids this kind of thing, but evidently there are increasing numbers of people who seek it out. What's the answer to that problem?

I don't know - very similar to the power of pornography (and there are genres that do consciously combine sex and violence in mainstream horror films). It's easy somehow ... and I'm not sure I know exactly what I mean by that. The Romans at the Coliseum would know and probably wrote about it. As would folks going to a hangin'.


I've thought about this a lot - my brother in law talks about "de-sensitizing" and that if he could just get his wife to watch certain things, she would be so de-sensitized that they could watch anything together! (he is quite the logician) His wife is quite religious and quite sensitive.

I've turned away from a lot of media. I don't watch boxing or UFC any more and I was involved in these sports ... I like watching them and I like reading about boxing, I understand the appeal of one-on-one combat but another part of me is now sickened by it and by the part of me that still wants to go to the ring. So I keep that part locked up as best I can but somehow I can't let it go entirely, I think to do so would deny some aspect of who I am. My family history on both sides has quite a lot of violence.

I have a friend at work who is training to become Law Enforcement and there is such a split in him about violence, on the one hand he seems quite apt having trained for many years in the martial arts - and yet torn by his conscience when he is called on to apply violence even in training. And he has something to prove, which is extremely dangerous. You must know how you will react to violence/confrontation or you must avoid it at all costs. In many case, that confidence alone will end the confrontation without the use of force.
 
“Scherz, List und Rache.”
Vorspiel in deutschen Reimen.

1.

Einladung.

Wagt’s mit meiner Kost, ihr Esser!
Morgen schmeckt sie euch schon besser
Und schon übermorgen gut!
Wollt ihr dann noch mehr, — so machen
Meine alten sieben Sachen
Mir zu sieben neuen Muth.

JEST, RUSE AND REVENGE.
A PRELUDE IN RHYME.
Invitation.
Venture, comrades, I implore you.
On the fare I set before you,
You will like it more to-morrow,
Better still the following day :
If yet more you're then requiring,
Old success I'll find inspiring,
And fresh courage thence will borrow
Novel dainties to display.


And this one I appreciate:

4.
Dialogue.
A. Was I ill ? and is it ended ?
Pray, by what physician tended ?
I recall no pain endured !
B. Now I know your trouble's ended :
He that can forget, is cured.
 
@Constance

Are you familiar with Walter Wink's concept of "Redemptive Violence"? It starts with Tiamat and Marduk and still describes the pattern of violence in most modern media which is mythic. Horror films and superhero films, gangster films, Westerns - etc all follow the same wearisome pattern in portraying violence - the first half is to give an excuse to even the most reluctant hero (example The Quiet Man or The Ninth Configuration) to act with extreme violence ... this is done by showing the villain engaging in the most unforgivable acts, so the hero has to get revenge and the viewer can feel good about it and about himself for watching the nastiness.

As a counter example, see Segio Corbucci's notorious The Great Silence in which the viewer's expectations are not fulfilled and thus he has to deal with the sickening realization of having watched pintless violence ... an alternative ending had to be filmed, in which the good guy triumphed.

For examples that fulfill the paradigm see every film Clint Eastwood ever made, most especially those he claims send an anti-violence message:

The Unforgiven
Gran Torino


These are our modern mythmakers, for better or worse and a key to understanding ourselves - or for future generations to understand us, since such understanding seems to require the perspective of time.

I also think the media manipulates the viewer in a sophisticated manner. They have a lot of tools at their disposal but I wonder if they are any more sophisticated than say

Shakespeare (bloody violent stuff!)

or any skilled troubador or bard or story teller at any time in history? And they have the same raw materials, the Id of the audience, at their disposal.

Should some stories then not be told?
 
There are two professional killers in no country. One is a psycho the other apparently not. The psycho seems true in his utter detachment. Not sure the non-psycho is portrayed as more evil... If anything I felt sympathy toward him, though his indidferent professionalism might be seen as the greater evil. I came out thinking they were all on a par in their own manner.
 
If McGilchrist is right and we are literally of two minds about everything and if the evolutionary tendency is for the thin cord of communicatinon (corpus collosum) to grow thinner, then we could predict that we will never come to any satisfaction in philosophy.

Eastern meditation seems to tell us we can turn off the left brain in meditation.

(which reminds me that I came across an interesting TIP in re: to meditation - that was to notice and attempt to keep the tongue perfectly still when meditating, that very small muscular movements occur in the tongue (and in the vocal chords) when the mind begins to "chatter" - this may be part of the eight point posture in which you press the tongue into the groove at the roof of the mouth)

Western tradition also seems to do its damnedest to silence the right brain but through ridicule and reason. I suppose there is no such thing as left brain meditation - merely concentration?
 
There are two professional killers in no country. One is a psycho the other apparently not. The psycho seems true in his utter detachment. Not sure the non-psycho is portrayed as more evil... If anything I felt sympathy toward him, though his indidferent professionalism might be seen as the greater evil. I came out thinking they were all on a par in their own manner.

Woody Harrelson's real life father was apparently a contract killer.

I don't think he would want your sympathy and I think if presented with it, he would pull out his little coin ...

1. Chigurh made short work of Harrelson's killer in the film.

2. It could be argued that Chigurh is a simple embodiment of fate, a Deus ex Machina that reminds us that life is implacable.

But I suppose you could sympathize with his fate at the same time ... or see also The Very Unpleasant Profession of Jonathon Hoag

I thought Chigurrh's being wounded in a car wreck at the end of the film was an opportunity for the author to tell us what he was. If he had been killed, then he would have had to bear the sins of his crimes - the coin flip would not absolve him of his humanity. That he walked away tells me he may not be human and that Anton Chigrrrrrrrrh always walks among us.

"What he told my brother was that he intentionally gave the character Anton Chigurh a name devoid of clues as to nationality or origin so that readers would concentrate on who Chigurh was in the moment, without focusing on the background that created him. It's genius, to me, because it's another way his story does not insult us as readers. To McCarthy, not everything needs to be explained, nor is the explanation even that important, it's all the character in this case and his role in the story. The Coen brothers also achieve this with Javier Bardem in the movie version when they give him an accent that's impossible for the viewer to identify."

That's genius? It's the same reason Michael Myers wore a bleached Captain Kirk mask in Halloween, the juxtaposition of the pedestrian with evil and death ... but evil and death are pedestrian. Hmmm, maybe we should coin a phrase like:

the banality of evil

...
 
With lecter is there not the idea that our humanity imprisons us in our repressed (childhood) fears. The detached cold eyes of the pycho(therapist) is not the subject of such repressions - he is free of them. The price of freedom from inner repression is monsterous but enviable for the freedom it imbues. The alternative entails courage and acknowledge frailty
 
With lecter is there not the idea that our humanity imprisons us in our repressed (childhood) fears. The detached cold eyes of the pycho(therapist) is not the subject of such repressions - he is free of them. The price of freedom from inner repression is monsterous but enviable for the freedom it imbues. The alternative entails courage and acknowledge frailty

Maybe to some degree in the very beginning, but even in the first book - Manhunter, Will Graham (FBI agent) is an empath and has all the capabilities of Lecter (except his intelligence) he tells Lecter:

"I know I'm not as smart as you."

"The how did you catch me."

"You have certain ... disadvantages."

"What disadvantages?"

"You're insane."

Lecter has no ready reply.

Starling similarly bumfuzzles him when she asks him to turn his high powered perception on himself. Lecter has places in himself he will not go.

Lecter is said to be obsessed with a mathematical proof of reincarnation - or something along the lines of Nietzsche's Eternal Recurrence ... his mathematics is noted to be brilliant but flawed, the product of hope. What he want is his sister, herself a victim of soldiers' cannibalism, to be returned to life.

Late in the series, Starling handcuffs Lecter to her own wrist and he cuts his own hand off instead of killing her. He is already in love and has already been captured once because that love made him incautious. They later marry or at any rate come to live together and as far as I know, he stops killing.

And, as I said, I don't think he ever kills capriciously, but only kills the vile or evil. He fits the pattern of sociopath more than psychopath.

I think a better representation of the Id can be found in Forbidden Planet - which is a retelling of Shakespeare's The Tempest:

ID monster.jpg
 
. . .These are our modern mythmakers, for better or worse and a key to understanding ourselves - or for future generations to understand us, since such understanding seems to require the perspective of time.

I also think the media manipulates the viewer in a sophisticated manner. They have a lot of tools at their disposal but I wonder if they are any more sophisticated than say

Shakespeare (bloody violent stuff!)

or any skilled troubador or bard or story teller at any time in history? And they have the same raw materials, the Id of the audience, at their disposal.

Should some stories then not be told
?

There's more to the audience than the Id. The whole human is more than the Id, or was (if current popular culture reflects an altered state of mind in the purveyors and consumers of media violence and terror). To your last question, I'd have to say yes, some stories should not be told, some representations should not be projected in movie theatres and on television. (Oh horrors, I have the inclinations of a censor.) The fact is that people, especially children, are vulnerable to what they see and hear. If what is pressed upon them in the powerfully saturating visual media of our time celebrates violence (physical, psychological, or both) and terror, the brutal transgression of others' or their own boundaries, I don't see the benefits of that, for individuals or for society.
 
There's more to the audience than the Id. The whole human is more than the Id, or was (if current popular culture reflects an altered state of mind in the purveyors and consumers of media violence and terror). To your last question, I'd have to say yes, some stories should not be told, some representations should not be projected in movie theatres and on television. (Oh horrors, I have the inclinations of a censor.) The fact is that people, especially children, are vulnerable to what they see and hear. If what is pressed upon them in the powerfully saturating visual media of our time celebrates violence (physical, psychological, or both) and terror, the brutal transgression of others' or their own boundaries, I don't see the benefits of that, for individuals or for society.

Your question was about violent media consumption specifically ... and I do think that targets the Id, Shakespeare and Greek tragedy did it with equal awareness, I think?

Of course, it may reel the whole person in thereafter.

On the other hand, there may be some justification for telling such a tale. Different things are needed to waken different people. How much do we want to cling to our bodies? I'm sure there were kids in the Greek and Elizabethan audiences and at many a hanging. And all afffected differently. How does this differ from modern media? I think it does in very significant ways depending on the social context and parent's attitudes. It's something different than taking your child to see The Hills Have Eyes.

I agree, we can limit children's exposure to manufactured trauma ... Then again, the monster under the bed may be a form of age appropriate catharsis ... and that may vary from society to society. If you live in the forests with threat of wolves or tigers - you may need a more aggressive bedtime story.

(And lest you think such dangers are overblown, between 1876 and 1912, tigers killed 33,247 people in British India.) So whatever keeps little Johnnie in his bed at night ...

As to the fine (and not so) line of censorship, Roger Shattuck's Forbidden Knowledge: From Prometheus to Pornography - is an excellent text, especially the chapter on the literary "rehabilitation" of the Marquis de Sade.
 
Your question was about violent media consumption specifically ... and I do think that targets the Id, Shakespeare and Greek tragedy did it with equal awareness, I think?

It's a long time since I read Greek tragedies but my recollection is that physical violence and murder were usually presented 'off-stage' and reported, lamented, etc., in the dialogue. In Shakespeare's plays, the same practice generally applied. But I can see from the rest of your comments that your perspective and mine on this subject differ considerably, so let's just agree to disagree.
 
From the long version:

"1 Biochemical Knowledge

If on a clear day I were to ask you, “where is the sun’s location?”, you would point and reply, “over there”, explaining that your brain perceives by way of some complex of reliable neurological and biochemical mechanisms. Notwithstanding illusions or hallucination, you are justified to state categorically that you know it to be a fact—because of these various mechanisms—that the sun is located where you are pointing.

There are many species of plant whose leaves and/or flowers follow the sun as it traverses the sky. Of course, it is not luck nor chance that plants should do this. But if not chance, what could a plant possibly be if not informed about its environment in some manner? Otherwise one might well ask, why is there this correspondence between sun and plant? Might it be possible that the plant’s physiology—with its complex biochemical mechanisms—amounts to an innately determined information-construct that enables the following of the sun’s movement? What should we call this correspondence with fact? Maybe it is too far fetched to suggest that plants possess ‘biochemically constructed knowledge’: a knowledge that is devoid of conceptual representations about reality, that institutes no processes of thoughtful consideration, requires no belief, but rather, is a knowledge that is qualitatively relevant having proved highly valuable in terms of its survival potency. It is a fact that the sun traverses the sky and undoubtedly that fact is represented in the plant’s physiological mechanism; capturing the sun’s light is what the plant’s movements are about."

...

"4 Berrybug and the qualitative relevance of colour

From a physical standpoint, an object might reflect light within the frequency range 526–606 THz whilst a second object 400-484 THz.3 Let us assume that on earth, surfaces that reflect frequencies within 526-606 THz are ubiquitous, for complex reasons that we shall not explore here for the sake of brevity, and that these surfaces are of no material evolutionary benefit to a particular insect species by the name of Berrybug. Conversely, some rare objects that reflect frequencies within 400-484 THz are important to Berrybug’s survival because of their nutritional content.4 It would be qualitatively pertinent—i.e., it would have an impact on survival pressures—for that species to evolve mechanisms (innate biochemical and neurological mechanisms) that are alert to 400-484 THz reflecting colouration. By ‘alert’, what I mean is that it would be qualitatively pertinent for mechanisms to prioritise 400-484 THz colourations over other frequencies during the assimilation of sensory stimulation. These prioritising biochemical and neurological mechanisms would intensify focus in favour of this range of colours; augment feedback through perceptual re-enforcement; and more accurately direct further sensory exploration and assimilation. These accentuating mechanisms would facilitate operational economy for more responsive and ultimately rewarding motor activities. Conversely, it would be pertinent for innate mechanisms to be indifferent to the ubiquitous 526-606 THz reflecting objects by attenuating their focal impact neurologically. Additionally, if those desirable 400-484 THz objects had the added characteristic of possessing spherical contours (rather than jagged, for instance), any individuals of the species possessing autonomic shape-distinguishing neurological capabilities would possess an additional qualifying survival advantage. In themselves, these coloured and shaped objects have no intrinsic phenomenal identity, but the species will tend to evolve increasingly subtle and sophisticated biochemical and neurological mechanisms that are qualitatively delineated due to their impact on survival potentials. These capabilities might remain innately acquired, and therefore appear non-representational from an orthodox philosophical perspective (such as expressed in Block, 1995; McGinn, 1986; and Searle, 1983), but the physiologies do represent something; they represent the qualitative relevancy of environments in terms of the particular survival requirements of that species. So on this account, there is necessarily a qualitative representational correspondence between physiologies and the world. It is the relationship between evolved physiologies and their relevance to the environment and to survival that allows us to conclude that these light frequencies (526-606 and 400-484 THz), whose colours humans experience as green and red respectively, and each shape, which humans refer to as spherical and jagged (or dare I say, ‘acute-triangle shaped in appearance’ see Dennett, 2007, p. 215), are potentially both qualitatively differentiated and observer-dependent for any given species6 (observer-dependent rather than observer-independent; which is a significant departure from Tye’s stance; 1995, p. 100).

If an organism species feeds off red berries because of its nutritional benefits, it makes sense—sense with regard survival—for the species to evolve innate physiological mechanisms that energise and provoke its individuals to respond attentively to the visual perception of red colouration and to spherical objects more generally. In contrast, it makes sense for enthusiasm to be dampened to green colouration and to the asymmetries of jagged contours neurologically because of their insignificant survival relevancy. From this we have the foundational idea of the attractive and aversive characterisation of environmental properties in the construction of complex innate biochemical and neurological mechanisms. Of course, this implies that a creature that gains nutritional benefits from blue bananas whilst being indifferent to the nutritional content of red berries will possess inverted phenomenal affectations to that of Berrybug (because its survival would depend on it) giving us a plausible account that undermines the view that it is not possible for organisms that are sensitive to the same range of wavelengths as ourselves to have inverted or contrasting phenomenal impressions to ourselves.7"
Pharoah, over all I'm finding the writing to be easy to follow. Ive only finished with section four, but I like how the paper is unfolding.

I want to ask again about your use of the phrase "qualitatively relevant." You first use the phrase in section one, but don't go to lengths to define it.

I think of the term qualitative in two ways; one is the sense in which something has the quality of being, essentially, good or bad from a particular pov, and another sense in which it refers to the characteristics of something (in the context of consciousness, a synonym might be "phenomenal.")

In what Ive read of HCT—including the above—you seem to explain your use of the phrase in the former sense, but you then also seem to assume (?) that you've explained the latter sense as well. (I've tried to highlight this with my underlines above.)

That is, explaining that certain environmental stimuli are good or bad for an organism and that this is why an evolved organism might possess physiological mechanics that guide them toward or away from such qualitatively relevant stimuli does not explain how/why qualitative/phenomenal properties and/or experience exists.

For instance, your entire explanation of the dynamic relationship between environments and the organisms which evolve within them need not involve the phenomenal properties of red, green, and shapes.

That is, the frequencies of 526-606 and 400-484 THz could exist in the environment and be represented in an organism with chemical reaction X or vibration Z of neural cluster X and that would be the end of it. There is no need to appeal to subjective, phenomenal qualities such as green and red.

Furthermore, for every variety of photon wave frequency, there could easily be a corresponding chemical reaction, neural cluster, or vibration frequency to represent said frequency. Again, there is no need to bring phenomenal characteristics (red, green, etc) into the explanation. Of course, these physiological representations would still be geared toward stimuli that were qualitatively relevant, but that, in itself, does not give rise to phenomenal characteristics, no?

Finally, I didnt follow the last bit about blue bananas. The final sentence included a double negative which made it hard to follow.

I would ask, why couldn't the frequencies 526-606 and 400-484 (which you say for humans possess—or are given—the phenomenal qualities of green and red) have the reverse phenomenal qualities of red and green? That is to say, why for humans is 526-606 THz experienced as green and 400-484 THz experienced as red?

This would mean that in your analogy the same objects (spheres reflecting 400-484 THz) would be qualitatively good for the organism, but the organism would experience them as green berries instead of red. From whence comes the specific phenomenal property of an environmental stimulus?

1. Blue Bananas:
The blue bananas is in reference to Dennett's response to the Knowledge Argument. e.g.
http://isites.harvard.edu/fs/docs/icb.topic1298298.files/Dennett%20on%20the%20Knowledge%20Argument.pdf
I have re-written the passage:
A creature that gains nutritional benefits from blue bananas whilst being indifferent to the nutritional content of red berries will possess inverted affectations to that of Berrybug (because its survival would depend on it). In other words, it would evolve physiologies that would be alert (excitable and focused) to blue colourations at the expense of red coloured perceptions—its blue would be Berrybugs red and its red would be equivalent to Berrybugs green—giving us a plausible account that undermines the view, that it is not possible for organisms that are sensitive to the same range of wavelengths as ourselves to have inverted or contrasting affective valencies to ourselves. [I am keeping this double negative - Some argue (see footnote) that a colour's phenomenal quality is external to the organism i.e. qualia are observer independent... they are properties of things. According to this view, which I reject, you could not have inverted phenomenal experiences of colours. The Berrybug exposition indicates that is false... the qualitative nature of colour is ultimately observer dependent.

2. On human phenomenal experiences of red and green.
re Red: Much like Berrybug, humans have evolved a physiology that draws our attention to red. Why? there are sexual reasons (red lips = healthy mate = interested mate = mate ready to mate). There are scavenging reasons (we need to be able to spot red berries in the bushes amongst all the green). There are hunting reasons (blood red needs to excite us... to release adrenalin and get us pumped up).
re Green: green is altogether more mellow feeling. It is a sign of renewal (a good place to camp for the season). A place of refuge (to hide and be silent = not to be heard).
If grass was red, and blood green our phenomenal experience would be inverted according to my account.

3. Qualitatively relevant physiologies do not account for phenomenal experience (I was not clear there... thanks for the heads up). However, they are foundational. They are necessary for phenomenal experience to evolve (this diffuses the zombie argument because you can't have higher order processes in a physical universe like ours with the foundations missing). Read the sections after 4. Berrybug for more on phenomenal experience.
Physiological mechanisms assimilate the qualitative relevancy of environment.
So the qualitative foundation is there.
To possess phenomenal experience is a stage beyond that. There must be assimilation... AND then evaluation about qualitative relevancy. As a simple organism with 100,000 neurons evolves more complex physiological affectations, it must begin to organise them so as to be able to prioritise one over another. This organising and prioritising is highly relevant to survival... so evaluation is necessary. The cognitive mechanisms that evaluate, effectively create memory and recall associations between qualitative impressions and environmental events. So, red berries are not necessary to effect excitation, rather associations with red berries are necessary. When an organism develops complex associative cognitive capabilities it then has a changing landscape of phenomenal experiential impressions about the environment e.g. this place with the tree in the field is the nice place where there were berries last year... maybe I will hang around for that same feel good factor). This is phenomenal experience but it needs the physiology in place.
Do I need to put this in the paper do you think? I think so... (?)
 
It's a long time since I read Greek tragedies but my recollection is that physical violence and murder were usually presented 'off-stage' and reported, lamented, etc., in the dialogue. In Shakespeare's plays, the same practice generally applied. But I can see from the rest of your comments that your perspective and mine on this subject differ considerably, so let's just agree to disagree.

I think we do agree. I will try to clarify:

Shattuck calls out the literary reformers for making something of the Divine Marquis that he isn't - a great writer whose literary qualities justifies his material ... instead he calls him what he is: a pornographer and says he doesn't deserve the legacy he is receiving. I find his arguments persuasive.

As to the effects of witnessed violence by children I do think it depends to some extent on the context and on parent's reactions ... to some extent ... but the woman in Germany - her mother told her the children were "sleeping" ... but even then she knew better and her mother's well intentioned lie and lack of follow up may have made the event even more traumatic, if possible, because she couldn't process it. Why would she tell me - aged sixteen? And she made me her confidante in other things which showed her own development had been affected.

By the way ... even as I type this I see clearly the same image I had when she told me that story thirty years ago. I carry some piece of that event for her and for the victims.

But this and the example of kids at hangings in the American west are still different from manufactured events like horror movies that manipulate the viewer for maximum effect. I don't watch it and I didn't let my kids watch it, either. I wouldn't take my kids to a hanging either, by the way.

I don't know about the Greek tragedies - I was thinking of later Roman gladiatorial spectacles in the Colliseum. I'm not sure about Shakespeare either but I'm sure it varied but its hard to believe with the realities of the time that something of the bloody specatle wasn't shown.

I've just found this:

Violence in Shakespeare: Suicide, Murder, and Combat in Shakespeare's Plays

Elizabethan and Jacobean audiences reveled in shocking drama. While patrons liked a good comedy, they consistently packed the theatres to see the newest foray into treachery, debauchery, and murder. Scenes of bloodshed were staged with maximum realism. An account of the props required for George Peele's The Battle of Alcazar (1594), for example, lists three vials of blood and a sheep's lungs, heart, and liver. Kyd's Spanish Tragedy calls for an arbor with a dead body swinging from it (as described in Karl J. Holzknecht's, The Backgrounds of Shakespeare's Plays).
 
@smcder

Blackmore doesnt think we will find NCCs because neurons are consciousness, not mere correlates of consciousness. Not quite what I was expecting, heh.

Here's an interesting read. The varieties of concepts, terms, and approaches to consciousness continue to astound. She's definitely put the work in though.

Dr. Susan Blackmore

"...If the aim is to explore consciousness through disciplined first-person methods, which method should we use? There have been many notable attempts in the past, including the notoriously failed introspectionism of the late nineteenth century, the methods of phenomenology based on the work of Edmund Husserl in the early twentieth century, and various currently more popular varieties of phenomenology (see e.g. Gallagher 2007, Stevens 2000, Thompson and Zahavi 2007). The closest to my own approach is possibly the work of Francisco Varela who used meditation as part of his discipline of neurophenomenology (Varela and Shear1999).The major problem facing these attempts is that each explorer can proclaim their own discoveries to be right and other people’s to be wrong – their own minds to be typical and others’ aberrant – a problem tackled in different ways by these various disciplines. ...

Am I conscious now?” appears to be too simple a question to provide much enlightenment but when I began giving it to students as their first week’s question I quickly learned that it can have strange and interesting effects. Students told me that when I asked them “Are you conscious now?” they felt almost as though they were waking up, or becoming more conscious. They naturally began to wonder what was going on before they were asked the question, leading them on to ask “Was I conscious a moment ago?”

This second, apparently simple, question typically provokes two contrary reactions. One is “Yes, I must have been conscious because I am awake, alert, thinking and feeling, and I know I have been like that since I got up this morning.” The other is “No, I can’t have been conscious because when you asked me the first question it felt as though I was waking up, or becoming conscious in a way that I was not a moment before. Something changed.” ...

[Soupie: And the following should sound eerily familier, and by that I mean, "The mind is green."]

These observations suggest a different way of looking at the problem of consciousness based on distinguishing between two different states of mind, only one of which creates the appearance of the hard problem. We might want to call these the “thinking about consciousness” state and the “ordinary state of consciousness”, but I think they are better described as the “self-reflexive state” and the “scattered state”.

Self- reflexive mind.

Most of the time our minds are a scattered mass of barely interconnected ongoing processes but just occasionally something special happens. Some of these many threads are gathered together along with a model of a self experiencing them. When this happens it seems obvious that there is a self experiencing some things and not others. This change may take an intellectual form as when we ask ourselves “Am I conscious now?” or start wondering about the problem of consciousness or the nature of qualia or self. If we ask “What am I conscious of now?” one or more of the ongoing processes can be chosen to provide an answer. Whatever we do in this state, whichever way we direct our attention, we are sure that there is a self who is subjectively experiencing certain contents of consciousness. This is because a temporary self has indeed been constructed, and some of the streams are available to this self while others are not.

In this state there seems to be a magic difference between conscious and unconscious processes; there seems to be a self who is separate from the conscious processes; and there seems to be a duality between the subjective world and an objective world. In other words, it is in this state that all the familiar problems of consciousness seem troublesome.

This state is not a common state of mind for most people – or even for philosophers and consciousness researchers. Indeed it may happen rarely and last only a short time. Yet it causes all the trouble.

Scattered mind.

Most of the time our minds are not in this asking-about-consciousness or self-reflexive state. They are scattered. We go about our lives without worrying about the nature of consciousness, while our complex bodies and brains do lots of things at once; seeing, hearing, thinking, walking, talking, calculating, making decisions about what to do next and so on and on. ..."

Soupie: The above distinction is the exact one that I made when discussing my walk on the street during which I observed the basketball game.
 
@smcder

Blackmore doesnt think we will find NCCs because neurons are consciousness, not mere correlates of consciousness. Not quite what I was expecting, heh.

Here's an interesting read. The varieties of concepts, terms, and approaches to consciousness continue to astound. She's definitely put the work in though.

Dr. Susan Blackmore

"...If the aim is to explore consciousness through disciplined first-person methods, which method should we use? There have been many notable attempts in the past, including the notoriously failed introspectionism of the late nineteenth century, the methods of phenomenology based on the work of Edmund Husserl in the early twentieth century, and various currently more popular varieties of phenomenology (see e.g. Gallagher 2007, Stevens 2000, Thompson and Zahavi 2007). The closest to my own approach is possibly the work of Francisco Varela who used meditation as part of his discipline of neurophenomenology (Varela and Shear1999).The major problem facing these attempts is that each explorer can proclaim their own discoveries to be right and other people’s to be wrong – their own minds to be typical and others’ aberrant – a problem tackled in different ways by these various disciplines. ...

Am I conscious now?” appears to be too simple a question to provide much enlightenment but when I began giving it to students as their first week’s question I quickly learned that it can have strange and interesting effects. Students told me that when I asked them “Are you conscious now?” they felt almost as though they were waking up, or becoming more conscious. They naturally began to wonder what was going on before they were asked the question, leading them on to ask “Was I conscious a moment ago?”

This second, apparently simple, question typically provokes two contrary reactions. One is “Yes, I must have been conscious because I am awake, alert, thinking and feeling, and I know I have been like that since I got up this morning.” The other is “No, I can’t have been conscious because when you asked me the first question it felt as though I was waking up, or becoming conscious in a way that I was not a moment before. Something changed.” ...

[Soupie: And the following should sound eerily familier, and by that I mean, "The mind is green."]

These observations suggest a different way of looking at the problem of consciousness based on distinguishing between two different states of mind, only one of which creates the appearance of the hard problem. We might want to call these the “thinking about consciousness” state and the “ordinary state of consciousness”, but I think they are better described as the “self-reflexive state” and the “scattered state”.

Self- reflexive mind.

Most of the time our minds are a scattered mass of barely interconnected ongoing processes but just occasionally something special happens. Some of these many threads are gathered together along with a model of a self experiencing them. When this happens it seems obvious that there is a self experiencing some things and not others. This change may take an intellectual form as when we ask ourselves “Am I conscious now?” or start wondering about the problem of consciousness or the nature of qualia or self. If we ask “What am I conscious of now?” one or more of the ongoing processes can be chosen to provide an answer. Whatever we do in this state, whichever way we direct our attention, we are sure that there is a self who is subjectively experiencing certain contents of consciousness. This is because a temporary self has indeed been constructed, and some of the streams are available to this self while others are not.

In this state there seems to be a magic difference between conscious and unconscious processes; there seems to be a self who is separate from the conscious processes; and there seems to be a duality between the subjective world and an objective world. In other words, it is in this state that all the familiar problems of consciousness seem troublesome.

This state is not a common state of mind for most people – or even for philosophers and consciousness researchers. Indeed it may happen rarely and last only a short time. Yet it causes all the trouble.

Scattered mind.

Most of the time our minds are not in this asking-about-consciousness or self-reflexive state. They are scattered. We go about our lives without worrying about the nature of consciousness, while our complex bodies and brains do lots of things at once; seeing, hearing, thinking, walking, talking, calculating, making decisions about what to do next and so on and on. ..."

Soupie: The above distinction is the exact one that I made when discussing my walk on the street during which I observed the basketball game.
@smcder

Blackmore doesnt think we will find NCCs because neurons are consciousness, not mere correlates of consciousness. Not quite what I was expecting, heh.

Here's an interesting read. The varieties of concepts, terms, and approaches to consciousness continue to astound. She's definitely put the work in though.

Dr. Susan Blackmore

"...If the aim is to explore consciousness through disciplined first-person methods, which method should we use? There have been many notable attempts in the past, including the notoriously failed introspectionism of the late nineteenth century, the methods of phenomenology based on the work of Edmund Husserl in the early twentieth century, and various currently more popular varieties of phenomenology (see e.g. Gallagher 2007, Stevens 2000, Thompson and Zahavi 2007). The closest to my own approach is possibly the work of Francisco Varela who used meditation as part of his discipline of neurophenomenology (Varela and Shear1999).The major problem facing these attempts is that each explorer can proclaim their own discoveries to be right and other people’s to be wrong – their own minds to be typical and others’ aberrant – a problem tackled in different ways by these various disciplines. ...

Am I conscious now?” appears to be too simple a question to provide much enlightenment but when I began giving it to students as their first week’s question I quickly learned that it can have strange and interesting effects. Students told me that when I asked them “Are you conscious now?” they felt almost as though they were waking up, or becoming more conscious. They naturally began to wonder what was going on before they were asked the question, leading them on to ask “Was I conscious a moment ago?”

This second, apparently simple, question typically provokes two contrary reactions. One is “Yes, I must have been conscious because I am awake, alert, thinking and feeling, and I know I have been like that since I got up this morning.” The other is “No, I can’t have been conscious because when you asked me the first question it felt as though I was waking up, or becoming conscious in a way that I was not a moment before. Something changed.” ...

[Soupie: And the following should sound eerily familier, and by that I mean, "The mind is green."]

These observations suggest a different way of looking at the problem of consciousness based on distinguishing between two different states of mind, only one of which creates the appearance of the hard problem. We might want to call these the “thinking about consciousness” state and the “ordinary state of consciousness”, but I think they are better described as the “self-reflexive state” and the “scattered state”.

Self- reflexive mind.

Most of the time our minds are a scattered mass of barely interconnected ongoing processes but just occasionally something special happens. Some of these many threads are gathered together along with a model of a self experiencing them. When this happens it seems obvious that there is a self experiencing some things and not others. This change may take an intellectual form as when we ask ourselves “Am I conscious now?” or start wondering about the problem of consciousness or the nature of qualia or self. If we ask “What am I conscious of now?” one or more of the ongoing processes can be chosen to provide an answer. Whatever we do in this state, whichever way we direct our attention, we are sure that there is a self who is subjectively experiencing certain contents of consciousness. This is because a temporary self has indeed been constructed, and some of the streams are available to this self while others are not.

In this state there seems to be a magic difference between conscious and unconscious processes; there seems to be a self who is separate from the conscious processes; and there seems to be a duality between the subjective world and an objective world. In other words, it is in this state that all the familiar problems of consciousness seem troublesome.

This state is not a common state of mind for most people – or even for philosophers and consciousness researchers. Indeed it may happen rarely and last only a short time. Yet it causes all the trouble.

Scattered mind.

Most of the time our minds are not in this asking-about-consciousness or self-reflexive state. They are scattered. We go about our lives without worrying about the nature of consciousness, while our complex bodies and brains do lots of things at once; seeing, hearing, thinking, walking, talking, calculating, making decisions about what to do next and so on and on. ..."

Soupie: The above distinction is the exact one that I made when discussing my walk on the street during which I observed the basketball game.

This second, apparently simple, question typically provokes two contrary reactions. One is “Yes, I must have been conscious because I am awake, alert, thinking and feeling, and I know I have been like that since I got up this morning.” The other is “No, I can’t have been conscious because when you asked me the first question it felt as though I was waking up, or becoming conscious in a way that I was not a moment before. Something changed.” ...

What are the atypical reactions?

This state is not a common state of mind for most people – or even for philosophers and consciousness researchers. Indeed it may happen rarely and last only a short time. Yet it causes all the trouble.

For whom is this a common state of mind?
 
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