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Consciousness and the Paranormal — Part 3

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Well, this certainly has my attention. I'm 150 pages into your book (yes, still 150 haha) and I haven't a clue how HCT closes the subjective-objective gap.

And how the gap can be closed physically but the sense of self remain unexplained baffles me.

Soupie and Constance:
Ask this question of yourself:
Is there a difference between the problem of phenomenal consciousness and the problem of my phenomenal consciousness?
I submit that the two problems are not the same.
What do think?
By way of a poor analogy, a hydrogen atom has two electrons, but we need not have to know where those electons are situated to say a hydrogen atom is a hydrogen atom. We need not have to know what makes one hydrogen atom distinct from another in order to know why hydrogen is as it is and behaves as it does. One physical and reductive explanation does not clarify all. It determines or identifies general physical principles.

Soupie: I am going to respond to your objective/subjective queries which I obviously do not communicate very effectivelyin the book (which is undergoing a very substantial re-write, but am currently absorbed in the Tononi. I find it very difficult to understand why anyone would take it remotely seriously.
btw In relation to Tononi, I would not recommend the "Here there and everywhere" paper. The ideas are difficult to interpret when the grammar is so poor and the concepts so badly constructed. IIT 3.0 is a much much better and clearer paper.
 
I don't think Chalmers created the 'entrenched stances' between analytical and phenomenological philosophy; they existed before. I think he upset a lot of people because, given his position in POM, he effectively forced them to consider perspectives on consciousness and mind that they'd long resisted -- challenges to their own systems of 'thought'.

2. ”Who claims that an explanation of phenomenal experience [is] truly an explanation of consciousness?”

'Easy' only by comparison with the hard problem. Mind and the consciousness that enables it are immensely complex, which is why I wrote that "phenomenal experience is the explanandum, not the explanation, as Varela laboriously demonstrated, as neurophenomenology makes clear. You are oversimplifying phenomenal and cognitive experience." Phenomenal experience is not simply 'how things feel' or 'what it's like to be a human or a bat'. It is the ground of our thinking as well as of our feeling in a world whose essential meaning is not given and might not exist. Indeed, in the circumstances the meaning is ours to make. If we don't begin with the ground of our experience {what we can know within all that we cannot know} our interpretations of reality easily become 'just so' stories about reality built on presuppositions -- including those of physicalist science as well as religion.

3. “Here you've changed the subject {the nature of consciousness and mind} and moved the goalposts off the field.... I do not see an account in what you've posted of the basis on which you reify 'individual identity' as fixed from birth as some immutable essence that becomes the problem to be solved. This is a position you need to explicate, account for, justify on scientific grounds as well as philosophical grounds.”

What is "the philosophy that targets an individual’s personal and individuated inflection of experience"?

4. “there is no viable "reductive explanation of the phenomenon of experience" on offer, at least not one to be taken seriously.”

I'm not afraid of HCT. I do wish you could find a more accessible way to define and explicate your theory because I have not found in parts of it that I've read a destruction or deconstruction of phenomenology, which appears to be what you'll need to provide if you wish to present a "powerful reductive explanation" of consciousness.

5. “Your points might reinforce one another, Pharoah, but what's needed is reinforcement of their validity.”

Many of your potential readers will not see it that way without your demonstrating the inadequacy of other theories of consciousness.

6. “What elements of nature or physics could possibly determine one’s own specific frame of reference? -- begs innumerable questions and seems to express an implicit belief that the innumerable experiences had in the world by sentient organisms that interact with one another could all be pre-determined by nature or physics. Where are you going with this? It's really not clear.”

Or perhaps no single individuated consciousness can be completely accounted for. And perhaps no one else is trying to do so, contemplates that it would be possible to do so. I would guess that's the reality. But in that case, why raise the issue?

7. “Can you explain what you mean by 'noumenal consciousness'?”

Was Kant's the last word then? If so, why has there been such an industry in interpreting his philosophy from a variety of perspectives, including the phenomenological?

8. “I don't think you will ultimately be able to defend a "reductive explanation of phenomenal experience" through HCT”

Well, I'm sorry my comments and questions were not helpful. I do think some of them could help to improve the work and prevent attacks.

1. I agree. I am a big fan of Chalmers too btw.

2. Just to emphasise, I am not oversimplifying anything Constance. It is Chalmers who coined the phrases, "easy" and "hard" problems, not me. When Chalmers says hard, anyway, what he means is, not physically reductive i.e. unlike the "easy problems" explaining experience is outside the capabilities of physicalist undertakings - that physicalism is false and that critically, experience encapsulates the problem of the irreductive nature of consciousness.

3. Phenomenology... maybe. Nothing wrong with that. I step on no phenomeologist's toes.

4. 3. above explains 4. I have said it three prvious times now anyway so... Cross purposes I think.

5. I do attack other theories, Dennett, Tye, Searle, Deacon, and now Tononi. I am wading my way through these thickets with my bush knife. Can't say that I have call to attack everyone.

6. Why raise the issue!! That's me shouting btw. Because the distinction is never made explicit by philosophers. It is one of the most crucial distinctions about consciousness. I cannot stress that enough. The problem of Phenomenal consciousness (as a general characteristic arising from physical interaction) is not the same as the problem of my phenomenal consciousness which is unique in the history and future of the universe. Physics and reductive explanation provide unified and general principles. Thus a reductive explanation of the phenomenon of consciousness explains why experience has its 'feeling' characteristics etc. and explains why it must engage a first-person's perspective, but that is as far as it can go, and is as far as it needs to go to qualify as a physicalist explanation of the phenomenon of consciousness.

7. Noumenon is a word that I have borrowed. As far as I am concerned, there is no definitive stance for the term... that is the short answer.

8. Your comments and questions have been incredibly valuable to me. I cannot stress enough how much I value your feedback and that of soupie and smcder. Each have your own way of relating to things and those differences make for interesting alternative perspectives. I don't consider you, Constance, to be particularly analytical - which I think frustrates me - and I think you misunderstand my project in some important ways. My job is to try to improve my communication and become more informed by the discussions...
 
I have been trying to make sense of Tononi's terms. Go to the end of the thread for my favourite. They are taken from the glossary of IIT 3.0 but exclude their further qualifications for simplicity:

MICS (maximally irreducible conceptual structure): The conceptual structure generated by a complex in a state...
Complex: A set of elements within a system...
Conceptual structure: A conceptual structure is the set of all concepts...
Concept: A set of elements within a system...

My interpretation:
MICS is the conceptual structure - which is the set of all concepts; which is a set of elements within a system - is generated by a complex; which is a set of elements within a system in a state
Importantly, what the heck is an element? He does not say.

alternatively,

a maximally irreducible conceptual structure (MICS) is the conceptual structure generated by a complex in a state, where a Complex is a set of elements within a system
A conceptual structure is the set of all concepts where a Concept is a set of elements within a system
A set of elements within a system is, as a concept, an identity (a noun)
A set of elements within a system is, as a complex, an activity (a verb)

Elsewhere "a concept expresses a causal effect", "Every concept is a point...", "the set of concepts in the quale is the content of consciousness", "a concept is how..."

given that "a complex is a set of elements in a system", the following is particularly noteworthy:
"Note that all the concepts are generated by elements of the complex"

Difficult to critique this stuff, wouldn't you say? It is like trying to identify specifically why a piece of plinky plonk avant garde music is tosh. I'll carry on with the analysis, but it might be worth holding out for IIT 4.0
 
My interpretation:

MICS is the conceptual structure - which is the set of all concepts; which is a set of elements within a system - is generated by a complex; which is a set of elements within a system in a state
Importantly, what the heck is an element? He does not say.
I agree the terminology is difficult, but I do not believe its gibberish. That is, I dont believe that Tonini is a charlatan trying to take people's money. Although, as you say, its possible this is all a ruse to get grant money. However, as both Tonini — and Koch who endorses him — are pretty well regarded neuroscientists, I'm willing to think thats not the case and to hope there is a germ of truth in this model.

All that said, here is my interpretation, haha:

A MICS is the conceptual structure. The conceptual structure would be equivalent to an individual's phenomenal landscape if it was like a movie that could be paused at any moment. The "conceptual structure" is but one frame of the ongoing "movie" of phenomenal experience.

Thus, the conceptual structure (movie frame) is constituted of many "concepts," which would equate to various qualia such as colors, smells, textures, shapes, sizes, distances, etc. However, it's important to note that a conceptual structure (movie frame) cannot be reduced to individual quale in reality (thus its irreducibility).

So the conceptual structure (movie frame) is composed of a constellation of concepts (qualia).

Concepts are generated by complexes of elements — or alternatively, mechanisms. I believe one of the papers identifies one example of an element/mechanism as a neuron. Presumably, a logic gate could act as an element/mechanism as well.

Thus, an element would be a neuron, and a complex would be a particular brain structure, say, the cortex.

A system then would be a brain — or at least a certain connected "circuit" of brain regions. And a state would refer to the current activity of a brain "circuit" at any given moment.

Since our phenomenal experience is not frozen like a single movie frame but "flows," that means the conceptual structure is dynamic; it will change from moment to moment. Thus, the constellation of concepts (qualia) will be dynamic and constantly changing as well. And thus, the underlying complexes (brain regions) and their elements (neurons) will be firing dynamically (and, importantly, causally) as well.

Thus, the objective/subjective bridge is closed. The dynamic physical constellation of concepts embodies an equally dynamic (informational) conceptual structure.

But just how this conceptual structure (MICS) gets its qualitative/phenomenal feel, I don't know. It may be that the feel arises from the causal integration of the neurons. Tonini seems to have identified brain regions (complexes) with causally integrated neurons (elements) as strongly correlated with consciousness (subjectivity).

Why causally integrated neurons would give rise to subjectivity (phenomenal conceptual structures), I don't think is explained.

Perhaps its like asking why particles have mass? (Yes, not a perfect analogy.)
 
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What predictions and manipulations will we need to determine the exact relationship of brain to mind?
One thing would be to determine which are the absolute minimal brain structures needed for the brain to experience (consciousness). We know via individuals with severe brain injury (and missing brain regions) that not all structures of the brain contribute critically to consciousness.

We would know exactly how the activity of various brain regions — and circuits of brain regions — relate to the phenomenal landscape at any given moment. (This would relate to NDEs.)

Another thing would be to know exactly why and how various chemicals (endogenous and exogenous) powerfully alter consciousness.

If human knowledge ever reaches a point where we completely understand the entire structure of the brain and all its many states and still we cannot completely explain all aspects of the mind, then we must conclude that the mind — or certain aspects of the mind — exist independent of the brain/body.

This will be an obvious statement, but I wonder if it is a coincidence that our lack of understanding of the relationship between the mind and brain is second or perhaps equal to our lack of understanding of the brain itself.

Thats not to say that from complete understanding of the brain will follow complete understanding of consciousness, but one would hope it would give us a nearly complete understanding of the relationship between mind and brain.
 
Is there a difference between the problem of phenomenal consciousness and the problem of my phenomenal consciousness?

I submit that the two problems are not the same.

What do think?
I agree. But while both are formidable problems, I agree with @Constance that the first seems the more formidable of the two.

As an analogy, it might be easier to explain why a proton has the mass it does than to explain why particles have mass at all.

Additionally, not having read your nouminal paper, I'm not quite sure what your second problem attempts to capture. To grok, I think I would need to understand your solution to the HP.

By the way, if you do have a solution to the hard problem, you need to get that shit published, haha. (Would your explanation of the solution have been in the first 150 pages of your book?)
 
@Constance What phenomenological insights have allowed you to determine that consciousness cannot be wholly explained as information arising in the brain? That is, what first-person experiences/knowledge allowed you to arrive at that strong conclusion?

That's a good question and I want to respond to it as fully as I can. I should first distinguish experiences and a general inclination/orientation I already had in childhood from the philosophical insights I obtained later in graduate school. In early grade school years I already gravitated toward nature as the most wondrous and significant mileau in which I existed. I was more attentive to and affected by life existing beyond the human world than my friends were, and I approached animals, birds, insects, and fish with a sense of their awareness and a consequent concern for them and their well being. I have no doubt that these inclinations were expanded and deepened by my years as a Girl Scout under the influence of my troop's leader, who led us on field trips and weekends in the Wisconsin wilderness to learn as much as possible about the natural world. I've forgotten her name but I remember her vividly, her zest for exploring and understanding nature and life, her energy and charisma, and her joy in opening the world to her troop members. She was a grandmother by then, much older than our mothers and in many ways more vigorous, and totally at home in the natural world. She was our guide and taught us more about the ecology and intricacy of the natural world than we were learning in school. So I would say I was to begin with more than normally open to and responsive to the natural world and became much more so because of the tutelage of this woman over four or five years.

It was also likely influential for me that I grew up in an aesthetically beautiful place, close by the shore of Lake Michigan, which was itself a constant lure in every season and also provided forested bluffs to explore on the way down to the lake. The water itself and the life in it were sensually captivating, and the varying winds off the lake, heavily humid and scented by the water even several miles inland, were a constant reminder of the lake's presence. I still remember an occasion when I stayed up all night writing a paper for a college course. It was spring and the windows of the house were open to an increasingly active outer atmosphere. The winds coming in off the lake rose during the night, knocking the trees and undergrowth around. Lilac bushes were in bloom so the air was drenched with their fresh scent mingled with the vibrant lake air. The whole atmosphere was heady, and I had to keep getting up from the kitchen table to go outside into the yard to experience it fully. I might in fact have been in love with the natural world.

Some years later, in graduate school, I first read Sartre with my husband at the time, who was writing his dissertation on freedom in Schiller and Sartre and I began then to think about the relationship of consciousness and mind to the natural world in which it has evolved and the cultural world we overlay upon it. Later, in a different graduate school, I read the poetry of Wallace Stevens and decided to write my dissertation on it. I approached my Modern Poetry professor and asked if he would be my diss. director, and I informed him that I would be taking an existentialist approach to the poetry. He said I'd have to get a member of the Philosophy Department on my committee, so I sought out E. F. Kaelin, the specialist in existentialism and phenomenology, took his seminar in phenomenological aesthetics and then a course on Heidegger taught by William Werkmeister. Kaelin became my mentor in the dissertation work. I read the books of Merleau-Ponty and other philosophers that he recommended to me and also his own books and papers in phenomenological and existential aesthetics. Merleau-Ponty put it all together for me, and his philosophy and Stevens's poetry illuminated one another. I've never known anyone who enjoyed writing a dissertation as much as I did.

I should add that in my experience studying literature is an efficacious introduction to reading philosophy because novels, poetry, and drama provide a historical panorama of humanly lived experience in multiple places and times, including the pressures of social and cultural influences on thinking, the dominant scientific and philosophical ideas circulating in various historical epochs, the diverse interactions of the characters with others in their lives, and their sense of the worlds they lived in, overlapping one another. Some novels and poetry are categorized as 'philosophical' because their characters/personae -- and the authors of the works in which they appear -- all express struggles with ideas and points of view on philosophical, social, and ethical issues. This is the phenomenological 'thickness' of literary works, that they contain layered expressions of reality as lived, felt, and thought in the literary artwork as a whole and in particular streams of consciousness of major characters and of the persona (the voice speaking) in poetry, which does not always coincide with that of the author behind the work. So the complexity of reading literary works prepares one in a useful way for reading philosophy, particularly for reading phenomenological philosophy, since one is used to reading and interpreting what is presented and represented from a variety of positions and presuppositions in thinking about the self, others, and the world.


I found the following summary of Sarte's work from Wikipedia interesting:

Phenomenological ontology[edit]

In Sartre's opinion, consciousness does not make sense by itself: it arises only as an awareness of objects. Consciousness is therefore always and essentially consciousness of something, whether this "something" is a thing, a person, an imaginary object, etc. Phenomenologists often refer to this quality of consciousness as "intentionality". Sartre's contribution, then, is that in addition to always being consciousness of something, consciousness is always consciousness of itself.

That's accurate but is far from representing Sartre's only contribution to the understanding of consciousness.


In other words, all consciousness is, by definition, self-consciousness. By "self-consciousness", Sartre does not mean being aware of oneself thought of as an object (e.g., one's "ego"), but rather that, as a phenomenon in the world, consciousness both appears and appears to itself at the same time. By appearing to itself, Sartre argues that consciousness is fully transparent; unlike an ordinary "object" (a house, for instance, of which it is impossible to perceive all of the sides at the same time), consciousness "sees" all aspects of itself at once. This non-positional quality of consciousness is what makes it a unique type of being, a being that exists for itself.

I have two arguments with that summary (given that misleading summaries are what we can expect from the limited presentations in encyclopedias). Sartre's early philosophy in Being and Nothingness begins with an explication of the ontological meaning of phenomenological consciousness, but much of that volume is concerned with the deepening differentiation between authenticity and inauthenticity in the ways in which individuals realize or fail to realize the intersubjective implications of their own and others' consciousness. Also, it's inexact to say that consciousness is immediately "fully transparent to itself" and "'sees' all aspects of itself at once." What one becomes aware of is first one's positional relationship to that which is other than the self and -- in germinal form -- the fact that one is in oneself the location of that awareness. It's a kind of fissure that takes place between the being of what-is that surrounds the individual and his or her own consciousness as a point of openness to it, an awareness of it, and a point of view on it -- all of which exist in intimate connection with these surroundings. This fissure or tear occurs at the point when prereflective consciousness passes into the capability of reflective consciousness, and the difference once disclosed can never quite be overcome.

In this sense, Sartre uses phenomenology to describe ontology [to reveal our ontological situation in the world].
Thus, the subtitle An Essay on Phenomenological Ontology or, alternatively, A Phenomenological Essay on Ontology: what truly makes Sartre's a phenomenological ontology is that consciousness's structure is the way that it appears. Philosopher Kenneth Williford suggests that Sartre's reasoning turns on a logic of full phenomenal transparency that might not withstand scrutiny. In other words, Sartre implicitly argues that if consciousness "seems" to possess a certain property, then it actually possesses that property. But, conversely, if consciousness does not seem to possess a certain property, Williford argues that it would be hasty to conclude from this "seeming" that consciousness does not actually possess that property. (For example, consciousness might not "seem", upon reflection, to be brain process, but it is not clear from this "seeming" that consciousness is not, in fact, a brain process.)[8]

I've made a slight correction in red in the first line of that paragraph. The situation is that the phenomenology of consciousness produces a new ontology. Re Professor Williford's comments, whether consciousness is in fact existentially, temporally, open to the encountered world and affected by it is demonstrated in the analysis of consciousness presented in the writing of the phenomenological philosophers, and is to be discovered by anyone who reflects long enough and deeply enough on his or her own consciousness to recognize that in standing slightly apart from the world one is also interfused with it. As MP expressed it, the world worlds [becomes a world] for and by virtue of consciousness.


(1) Consciousness always being conscious of itself:

Interesting. This relates to the concept I was trying to capture with my (confusing) statement, "The mind is green." That is, there may be wavelengths of a certain amplitude "out there," but the corresponding/correlating existence of "green" is consciousness. However, I believe that phenomenal green can exist in the absence of an ego, or a mental self, but there can be a meta-awareness; an awareness of phenomenal green. An awareness of awareness. Sarte seems to assert that there is by default an awareness of awareness...

So would Sarte say "green" is consciousness but also arises within consciousness; so despite manifesting as green, green is still consciousness. Thus, an awareness of green is an awareness of consciousness?

I will accept your metaphor as a metaphor. As it happens green is my favorite colors -- all the greens I can see and appreciate in the natural world, seconded by the blue-greens, the aquas, the turquoises, and so forth. But the colors I see are always mixed with others, in the way that the visible world overflows any single perception and can't be contained by any consciousness.


(2) For example, consciousness might not "seem", upon reflection, to be brain process, but it is not clear from this "seeming" that consciousness is not, in fact, a brain process.

Both/and . . .[/quote]

Unquestionably the brain is involved in consciousness, as is the body as a whole, and the brain certainly facilitates consciousness. It is necessary but not sufficient to account for how we and other animals world our worlds, bring them about.


As noted, this has been my main criticism of studying consciousness using phenomenology alone.

That was while you understood phenomenology as merely concerned with "the feeling of what it is like" to be a bat or a mouse or a dolphin or a raven or a human. I don't think it stands the same way with you at this point. If you read the paper on Varela and the one by Thompson you will appreciate the way in which phenomenologists and cognitive-affective neuroscientists participate in a common inquiry.
 
I agree the terminology is difficult, but I do not believe its gibberish. That is, I dont believe that Tonini is a charlatan trying to take people's money. Although, as you say, its possible this is all a ruse to get grant money. However, as both Tonini — and Koch who endorses him — are pretty well regarded neuroscientists, I'm willing to think thats not the case and to hope there is a germ of truth in this model.

All that said, here is my interpretation, haha:

A MICS is the conceptual structure. The conceptual structure would be equivalent to an individual's phenomenal landscape if it was like a movie that could be paused at any moment. The "conceptual structure" is but one frame of the ongoing "movie" of phenomenal experience.

Thus, the conceptual structure (movie frame) is constituted of many "concepts," which would equate to various qualia such as colors, smells, textures, shapes, sizes, distances, etc. However, it's important to note that a conceptual structure (movie frame) cannot be reduced to individual quale in reality (thus its irreducibility).

So the conceptual structure (movie frame) is composed of a constellation of concepts (qualia).

Concepts are generated by complexes of elements — or alternatively, mechanisms. I believe one of the papers identifies one example of an element/mechanism as a neuron. Presumably, a logic gate could act as an element/mechanism as well.

Thus, an element would be a neuron, and a complex would be a particular brain structure, say, the cortex.

A system then would be a brain — or at least a certain connected "circuit" of brain regions. And a state would refer to the current activity of a brain "circuit" at any given moment.

Since our phenomenal experience is not frozen like a single movie frame but "flows," that means the conceptual structure is dynamic; it will change from moment to moment. Thus, the constellation of concepts (qualia) will be dynamic and constantly changing as well. And thus, the underlying complexes (brain regions) and their elements (neurons) will be firing dynamically (and, importantly, causally) as well.

Thus, the objective/subjective bridge is closed. The dynamic physical constellation of concepts embodies an equally dynamic (informational) conceptual structure.

But just how this conceptual structure (MICS) gets its qualitative/phenomenal feel, I don't know. It may be that the feel arises from the causal integration of the neurons. Tonini seems to have identified brain regions (complexes) with causally integrated neurons (elements) as strongly correlated with consciousness (subjectivity).

Why causally integrated neurons would give rise to subjectivity (phenomenal conceptual structures), I don't think is explained.

Perhaps its like asking why particles have mass? (Yes, not a perfect analogy.)

Thanks for this...
I don't think it is a ruse etc - what I mean by grant money, is that other researchers run with ideas that have research potential, their job being not to question a theory until the potential empirical applications dry up. Plenty of examples in history.
I think that a novel and abstract concept can be very difficult to verbalise - so I sympathise with T. Nevertheless, the presentation of the idea does make interpreting the work rather difficult for me: who is to say that you have interpreted it correctly or not? And! If you can explain it - your interpretation - so well, why the heck can't Tononi and his fellow academics explain it more clearly? My thread about the terminology does not critique the theory at all i.e., it does not undermine its validiy, but it does question the article as a piece of writing.

Additionally, the glossary does not actually provide a definition for 'information'.
But,
"Intrinsic information is differences that make a difference within a system"; a system being "a set of elements/mechanisms" [yes: "a set of elements" again!]. Are we to assume that 'elements' and 'mechanisms' are interchangeable terms in this definition of a system?
and,
"Integrated information is information [note: whatever information is! for we have no definition for it] that is generated by a mechanism [again: elements and/or mechanisms??] above and beyond the information generated by its parts."

I think it is an utterly absurd piece of writing. And I haven't started on the problems with the theory yet
 
I agree the terminology is difficult, but I do not believe its gibberish. That is, I dont believe that Tonini is a charlatan trying to take people's money. Although, as you say, its possible this is all a ruse to get grant money. However, as both Tonini — and Koch who endorses him — are pretty well regarded neuroscientists, I'm willing to think thats not the case and to hope there is a germ of truth in this model.

All that said, here is my interpretation, haha:

A MICS is the conceptual structure. The conceptual structure would be equivalent to an individual's phenomenal landscape if it was like a movie that could be paused at any moment. The "conceptual structure" is but one frame of the ongoing "movie" of phenomenal experience.

Thus, the conceptual structure (movie frame) is constituted of many "concepts," which would equate to various qualia such as colors, smells, textures, shapes, sizes, distances, etc. However, it's important to note that a conceptual structure (movie frame) cannot be reduced to individual quale in reality (thus its irreducibility).

So the conceptual structure (movie frame) is composed of a constellation of concepts (qualia).

Concepts are generated by complexes of elements — or alternatively, mechanisms. I believe one of the papers identifies one example of an element/mechanism as a neuron. Presumably, a logic gate could act as an element/mechanism as well.

Thus, an element would be a neuron, and a complex would be a particular brain structure, say, the cortex.

A system then would be a brain — or at least a certain connected "circuit" of brain regions. And a state would refer to the current activity of a brain "circuit" at any given moment.

Since our phenomenal experience is not frozen like a single movie frame but "flows," that means the conceptual structure is dynamic; it will change from moment to moment. Thus, the constellation of concepts (qualia) will be dynamic and constantly changing as well. And thus, the underlying complexes (brain regions) and their elements (neurons) will be firing dynamically (and, importantly, causally) as well.

Thus, the objective/subjective bridge is closed. The dynamic physical constellation of concepts embodies an equally dynamic (informational) conceptual structure.

But just how this conceptual structure (MICS) gets its qualitative/phenomenal feel, I don't know. It may be that the feel arises from the causal integration of the neurons. Tonini seems to have identified brain regions (complexes) with causally integrated neurons (elements) as strongly correlated with consciousness (subjectivity).

Why causally integrated neurons would give rise to subjectivity (phenomenal conceptual structures), I don't think is explained.

Perhaps its like asking why particles have mass? (Yes, not a perfect analogy.)

Soupie, you say,
"Thus, the objective/subjective bridge is closed. The physical constellation of concepts generates an informational conceptual structure.
But just how this conceptual structure (MICS) gets its qualitative/phenomenal feel, I don't know."

Are you sure that the objective subjective bridge is truly closed? It makes the claim perhaps
"But just how this conceptual structure (MICS) gets its qualitative/phenomenal feel, I don't know." - This is a key aspect to what is wrong with the theory. Analyse the theory with this question in mind.
 
"Until humans are able to make strong predictions about the brain/mind or manipulate consciousness at will, all options are on the table. "

We can already do both in some sense of the words ... poke this neuron in surgery and you get grandmas cookies ... examine this fMRI and read the mind - examine the gross anatomy of the brain to diagnose certain illnesses or predict behavior ( psychopathy).

What predictions and manipulations will we need to determine the exact relationship of brain to mind?

"What predictions and manipulations will we need to determine the exact relationship of brain to mind?"

What do you say to this smcder?
 
I agree. But while both are formidable problems, I agree with @Constance that the first seems the more formidable of the two.

As an analogy, it might be easier to explain why a proton has the mass it does than to explain why particles have mass at all.

Additionally, not having read your nouminal paper, I'm not quite sure what your second problem attempts to capture. To grok, I think I would need to understand your solution to the HP.

By the way, if you do have a solution to the hard problem, you need to get that shit published, haha. (Would your explanation of the solution have been in the first 150 pages of your book?)

"the first seems the more formidable of the two."? Really? I am surprised. Is this what Constance thinks too?
HCT claims to solve the first, not the second fyi.
About publishing... as you can tell from my writing, the art of explanation is a painful process. Furthermore, when one looks at Chalmers' six point classification of materialists vs dualists and monists positions, one sees with absolute clarity that virtually no philosophers of note think that there is a distinction between the problem of phenomenal consciousness and the problem of my phenomenal consciousness i.e. orthodox has it that the problem of experience (encapsulating the issue of "my" experience and all forms of first-person experience) is the problem of consciousness... end of!
As I try to explain, to me this issue is the elephant in the room. I am sorry that I have not been able to explain this point more effectively. However, with the questions arising from our discussions, I hope that I am prompted to come up with more convincing erudite arguments.
 
@Pharoah

I think your best bet would be to clearly articulate your solution to the hard problem (how/why the subjective arises from the objective), and then once you've done that, then you can define the problem of individual subjectivity as you conceive it.

As it is now, I wonder if the problem you see with the latter is contingent on the solution you have conceived for the former. Since none of us grok your solution, perhaps we can't recognize the profound problem you've identified with accounting for individual subjectivity.
 
"the first seems the more formidable of the two."? Really? I am surprised. Is this what Constance thinks too?
That is how I interpreted this quote from her:

'Easy' only by comparison with the hard problem.
But again, I don't fully understand your conception of the problem of individual subjectivity. You'll have to articulate it at some point if you want us to ponder it. However, as I said, I think first you need to articulate your solution to the HP.
 
"Thus, the objective/subjective bridge is closed. The physical constellation of concepts generates an informational conceptual structure.
But just how this conceptual structure (MICS) gets its qualitative/phenomenal feel, I don't know."
Are you sure that the objective subjective bridge is truly closed? It makes the claim perhaps

"But just how this conceptual structure (MICS) gets its qualitative/phenomenal feel, I don't know."​

- This is a key aspect to what is wrong with the theory. Analyse the theory with this question in mind.
It's possible that IIT does not solve the HP. (But I think it does attempt to. That aspect of the model/theory has not been fully articulated yet.)

However, what the model does do is provide a -- perhaps incorrect, of course -- explanation of the relationship between the brain and the mind. It is a relationship that for me is intuitive, which may be why I am able to follow it easier than others. (If, as you point out, I have indeed followed it correctly, haha.)

I have felt from day one that the mind and qualia must be constituted of some form of "units" that combine to create our phenomenal landscape. IIT provides a model of these "units."

Elements -> Complexes -> Concepts (information) -> Conceptual (informational) Structure [Intentional Representation]

That is, ITT presents a model of how neurons, neural complexes, and systems of neural complexes generate causally integrated, subjective information that represents objective, environmental stimuli.

Just why this causally integrated information has a qualitative feel to it hasn't been articulated/discussed yet, as far as I know.
 
@Pharoah

I think your best bet would be to clearly articulate your solution to the hard problem (how/why the subjective arises from the objective), and then once you've done that, then you can define the problem of individual subjectivity as you conceive it.

As it is now, I wonder if the problem you see with the latter is contingent on the solution you have conceived for the former. Since none of us grok your solution, perhaps we can't recognize the profound problem you've identified with accounting for individual subjectivity.
will do after IIT
You are correct to say it is contingent... My explanation redraws the nature of the problem of cs.
it would help me if you briefly articulated what you understand of the distinction between objective and subjective
 
i
That is how I interpreted this quote from her:

But again, I don't fully understand your conception of the problem of individual subjectivity. You'll have to articulate it at some point if you want us to ponder it. However, as I said, I think first you need to articulate your solution to the HP.
In "facing up to the problem of consciousness" Chalmers states what he means by easy problems in the opening couple of paragraphs.
The hard problem is, according to Chalmers's stance - the ohysically irreducible problem of phenomenal experience.
Alternatively, I say, that the hard problem encapsulates two separate problems.
a) The problem of why phen con exists, why it is qualitative, what are its neural correlates, why is it amazing mysterious and wonderful, why a phen consc has a first-person perspective.. .e. the prob of experience is physically reductive - cue HCT. It was the hard problem, but it isn't now.
b) The problem of the phen consc that is uniquely mine - in the 13.8 billion year history of the universe - is somewhat trickier. Whilst the experience has the same general characteristics as all other phenomenal consciousnesses, possesses a unique first-person perspective like all other phen consciousnesses, can be examined phenomenologically as a general "property" common to all, it has something further still that individuates it. As an extension to the phenomenal, this problem I explore through the concept of the noumenal: everything that could be phenomenal, but that is not.

So, one can be an advocate of HCT: and be of the view that phen exp is reductively explained, and yet hold the view that the problem articulated by b) is irreducible, etc. but most importantly, what you CANNOT do, is claim the problem b) does not exist. And that calls for a radical change to the philosophical landscape.
 
It's possible that IIT does not solve the HP. (But I think it does attempt to. That aspect of the model/theory has not been fully articulated yet.)

However, what the model does do is provide a -- perhaps incorrect, of course -- explanation of the relationship between the brain and the mind. It is a relationship that for me is intuitive, which may be why I am able to follow it easier than others. (If, as you point out, I have indeed followed it correctly, haha.)

I have felt from day one that the mind and qualia must be constituted of some form of "units" that combine to create our phenomenal landscape. IIT provides a model of these "units."

Elements -> Complexes -> Concepts (information) -> Conceptual (informational) Structure [Intentional Representation]

That is, ITT presents a model of how neurons, neural complexes, and systems of neural complexes generate causally integrated, subjective information that represents objective, environmental stimuli.

Just why this causally integrated information has a qualitative feel to it hasn't been articulated/discussed yet, as far as I know.

Soupie: "...that represents objective, environmental stimuli." This is exactly what it does not do. It does not incorporate environment as a qualitative influence. The terms quale and terms quality are applied arbitrarily. The only link to consciousness is that the theory decides to use the terms quale and quality, but it does so without any qualification. You could equally replace the term quale with the term texture - why not? It is not a theory of consciousness. It is a theory about information as an abstract formulation of interacting complexes:
Tononi might have thought the following: "We have this abstract notion of informatiin as a spatio-temporal component of complex systems. Let's associate this concept with the hip philosophy word quale, say that certain abstract values correlate with experiential quality and hey presto, we have a theory of consciousness."
 
Soupie: "...that represents objective, environmental stimuli." This is exactly what it does not do. It does not incorporate environment as a qualitative influence. The terms quale and terms quality are applied arbitrarily. The only link to consciousness is that the theory decides to use the terms quale and quality, but it does so without any qualification. You could equally replace the term quale with the term texture - why not? It is not a theory of consciousness. It is a theory about information as an abstract formulation of interacting complexes:
Tononi might have thought the following: "We have this abstract notion of informatiin as a spatio-temporal component of complex systems. Let's associate this concept with the hip philosophy word quale, say that certain abstract values correlate with experiential quality and hey presto, we have a theory of consciousness."
I would disagree.

As noted previously, IIT notes that neural complexes (brain regions) evolved directly in response to patterns in the environment, ie, brain regions and the concepts/qualia they produce are adaptive.

So the human visual cortex evolved in response to qualitative environmental stimuli in the historical human niche, and thus the concept/qualia that the visual cortex adds to the constellation of concepts — the conceptual structure — is directly related to past and current experience with patterns of palpable reality.
 
I would disagree.

As noted previously, IIT notes that neural complexes (brain regions) evolved directly in response to patterns in the environment, ie, brain regions and the concepts/qualia they produce are adaptive.

So the human visual cortex evolved in response to qualitative environmental stimuli in the historical human niche, and thus the concept/qualia that the visual cortex adds to the constellation of concepts — the conceptual structure — is directly related to past and current experience with patterns of palpable reality.

how does a particular qualia - created in the brain - come to correlate with an environmental colur that actually exists. Couldn't I have been born coincidentally with the qualia in my brain of breen or glue or a million other non-existent colours from a colour spectrum that does not exist. Ah, but you would say, 'But the experiences don't arise until you see a breen or glue piece of paper'. Ok, so what if I saw a breen or glue piece of paper...what is it about the seeing that would evince the experience of breen and goue? What is it about the sighting of these colour breen and glue, that should align them to their respective correlated qualitative feel?
 
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