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Consciousness and the Paranormal — Part 8

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@Constance asks where NR and DR are equated by the author.

To say naive realism is a strong form of DR is not to equate them.

To equate them would be to say they are the same thing ... As the author notes they are often (wrongly) con-flated.

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You asked what would be a strong version of Direct Realism for me. I replied that it would be Naive Realism, and noted that the author said the same.

@Constance asked where the author equated DR and NR, I thought, in response to this exchange.
 
As you know, the scientific method can say nothing about consciousness. A theory that attempts to incorporate subjective experience will need to depart from the scientific method to some degree. If current finding in QM are any sign, maybe to a large degree? Perceptual observation and measurement won't cut it. I think such a theory--a theory describing the psychophysical nexus--will seem to me to combine 3rd person observation, 1st person reports, and math.

Yes, it's a big problem. It is what it is. QM is a big problem. Resolving the quantum, classical gap is a big problem. Explaining the origin of consciousness via physical processes is a hard problem.

I still like how Ringland phrased it: We are subjects who perceive the world--including ourselves--to be objects. Rather than assume that the world just is mindless objects, why not assume the opposite; that the world just is subjects that we merely perceive to be objects?
Yes, but you can see the basis for objectification and the motivation for a theory of consciousness: if you succeed wonderful, if you fail you keep trying as long as the strength of the opposition is 1) that it's not in conflict with any currently known scientific principles and 2) its framed in such a way that it likely never could be.

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What is Conscious realism?

Hoffman:

"Conscious realism is a proposed answer to the question of what the universe is made of. Conscious realism asserts that the objective world, i.e., the world whose existence does not depend on the perceptions of a particular observer, consists entirely of conscious agents. Conscious realism is a non-physicalist monism."

Theise and Kafatos:

"We propose a generalized theory of “Non-Dual Conscious Realism” addressing the fundamental issue of consciousness. This theoretical framework posits the universing arising from an undifferentiated, non-dual field of pure conscious awareness. From within this universal consciousness emanate the complementary phenomena of Planck scale quantum vacuum and quantum foam, generating space and time, matter and energy."

While there are many aspects of TaF's model that I like, my use of Conscious realism is more in line with Hoffman's use.

I typically have not appreciated his claim that conscious agents are fundamental, but it may actually parallel my own view.

Essentially, what Conscious realism claims is that consciousness is more fundamental than physical/material reality. Indeed, the claim is that physical/material reality is merely how objective reality appears to subjects. To claim that physical/material reality is real is to argue for Naive Realism.

So Conscious realism is the claim that consciousness is the fundamental substrate of reality. That systems constituted of consciousness perceive one another to be physical/material objects, but to claim that conscious systems just are physical/material objects is Naive Realism.

Of course there are many questions: if reality is not physical/material but merely appears to be physical/material, how is it that reality interacts and differentiates?

I would submit—as I have—that this is the very question quantum mechanics are trying to figure out. As has been well documented in this thread, the classical laws of (material) physics do not apply at the quantum level. Indeed, at the quantum level, reality does not appear to be material/physical at all.

I submit that the classical, billiard ball physics will fail to provide insight into the nature of consciousness and the quantum substrate.
But arent many Q-mechanics (or Quark jockeys as they may prefer) saying exactly that? That reality is fundamentally material?

We can see that by taking your statement:

"Indeed, at the quantum level, reality does not appear to be material/physical at all."

And running it backwards:

"According to the correspondence principle between classical and quantum mechanics, all objects obey the laws of quantum mechanics, and classical mechanics is just an approximation for large systems of objects (or a statistical quantum mechanics of a large collection of particles). The laws of classical mechanics thus follow from the laws of quantum mechanics as a statistical average at the limit of large systems or large quantum numbers."


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You asked what would be a strong version of Direct Realism for me. I replied that it would be Naive Realism, and noted that the author said the same.

@Constance asked where the author equated DR and NR, I thought, in response to this exchange.
You ask what the diff is in his "incredibly weak" version of DR and IR but he tells you that in the very first part of the paper!

IR posits a tertium quid and DR does not.

Further NR isnt distinguished by its "strength" but by saying the object of perception is exactly as you see it. So I was not looking for NR to be your strong form of DR.

I can then ask you a better question: if this is not a strong form of DR, then what is a strong form of DR that is NOT a form of NR?

To say that DR is weak because it requires physiological basis of perception is to claim that your eyeballs keep you from seeing straight! ;-)


Yes the DR paper. I only have my phone and a slow connection, please bear with me.


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He does address it, but I find his argument to be extremely weak.

In section 1.1 The Causal Argument, the author writes:

"It’s wise for Direct Realists to concede that for humans, and for percipients physiologically like us in the actual world, perception involves a long and complex causal series of events, and that perception is indeed dependent upon the condition of the eyes, of the optic nerve, and of the brain, upon the nature of the intervening medium, and so on. One can be a Direct Realist without being so naïve or ignorant as to think that in the actual world (and relevantly similar possible worlds), humans perceive external objects or events directly in the sense that there are no causal intermediaries between the external object or event and the percipient. Does this concession entail the falsity of Direct Realism? No. In holding that external objects or events are immediate or direct objects of perception, Direct Realists deny that perception of these external objects or events must be mediated by a prior awareness of causal intermediaries in the causal series eventuating in perception. Even if, say, the photoisomerisation of rhodopsin photopigment molecules in one’s eyes is a nomically necessary intermediary event in one’s visual perception of external objects or events, it does not follow, on Direct Realism, that one must be aware of that event (or any 5 other intermediary event or object) when one perceives external physical objects or events.

In this light, consider the following two claims:

(i) perception is indirect in the sense that it involves a series of causal intermediaries between the external object (or event) and the percipient; and (ii) perception is indirect in the sense of involving a prior awareness of something other than the external object (or event).

Claims (i) and (ii) thus distinguished, Direct Realists can argue that it does not follow from the fact that perception is indirect in the sense of (i) that it is indirect in the sense of (ii). What the Causal Argument establishes is only the causal indirectness of perception in the sense of (i), not the cognitive indirectness in the sense of (ii). Hence, this argument does not refute Direct Realists not committed to denying the indirectness of perception in the sense of (i). Thus, lest they fall prey to this argument, Direct Realists should be careful to distinguish between causal indirectness and cognitive indirectness.
"

So right up front the author concedes that "perception is indirect in the sense that it involves a series of causal intermediaries between the external object (or event) and the percipient." (Personally, once one has conceded this, imho, referring to perception as "direct" is semantics.)

In any case, in section 1.6. The Argument from Hallucination, the author writes:

"Second, let’s suppose that the drunk and Macbeth are each immediately aware of something, and that no physical pink rats appear to the drunk and no physical dagger appears to Macbeth. But from (i) no physical pink rats appear to the drunk or no physical dagger appears to Macbeth, and (ii) the drunk and Macbeth are each immediately aware of something, we need not conclude that (iii) sense-data (or ideas or the like) are the objects of immediate awareness in cases of hallucination. For (iii) neither follows deductively from (i) and (ii), nor is it the only (viable) explanation of (i) and (ii). Direct Realists can account for (i) and (ii) without conjuring up such strange existents as sense data (or the like) in at least three ways. One account takes states of the brain to be the objects of immediate awareness in cases of hallucination.18 A second account takes the objects of awareness in cases of hallucination to be mental images.19 The third account, the one preferred by the author of this paper, takes physical space occupants to be the objects of immediate awareness in hallucination.20 All three accounts offer explanations of hallucination without conjuring up a whole other order of existents."

So the author says that a Direct Realist could hold that hallucinations are states of the brain.

My response would be that based on the previous concession--that "perception is indirect in the sense that it involves a series of [physiological] causal intermediaries between the external object (or event) and the percipient"--that the author has no grounds to argue that perceptions and hallucinations are ontologically distinguishable.

Because according to the author's own arguments, the only way to distinguish between a hallucination and a perception is to determine if there is a corresponding external event or not.

To clarify, the author agrees that (1) all "perception" involves physiological intermediaries between* the external event and the percipient, and (2) hallucinations could be physiological states. However, the author argues that we shouldn't assume hallucinations and perceptions are ontologically the same, but he hasn't given us any reason at all to believe that they are ontologically distinct.

To be honest, at the end of the day, I'm not sure what the author, a direct realist, is arguing for or against... He concedes that all perceptions involve intermediary physiological processes and that the phrase "direct" refers to "cognitive" directedness as opposed to causal directedness. As far as I'm concerned, this is an incredibly weak version of Direct Realism.

What's the difference, really, between this weak version of Direct Realism and versions of Indirect Realism?

I think its the tertium quid that's causing you problems ... Physiological means are not TQ they are how we see. Its silly to say your eyeballs put a layer between you and what you see. Rather your eyes are what you see with.

As to the hallucinations he says why do we put that much faith in phenomenology? A hallucination wouldnt be a hallucination if we could discriminate it on the basis of our senses ... By definition. Direct Realism doesnt claim infallibility of the senses.

How does CR deal with hallucinations?
 
"Direct Realists deny that the perception of these physical objects or events requires a prior awareness of some tertium quid ( e.g., a reified appearance, sense-datum, sensum, idea, quality-instance, species) mediating between the mind and external physical objects or events."

Again ... He is not talking about physiological requirements. Otherwise we would be talking about perception without perceptors. Peeps without peepers!



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This claim made by DH is untenable given the evidence of ontological questioning and thinking in our species' prehistory {and as still evidenced in [ETA: the ideas and concerns of primitive peoples extant in the world today as expressed in their cultures. The claim is also untenable given the history of philosophy in the Eastern and Western worlds over the last several millenia, which presents a continual effort to establish the grounds on which a valid description and understanding of what-is can be achieved.]




I'm going to read the DR paper again to see if I find it as ambiguous as it sounds in comments here so far. Though the author of that paper is very workmanlike in the way he presents the eight objections to DR and defenses against them, he writes less clearly than direct realists such as Strawson.
I appreciate that term "workmanlike" it definitely is a formal paper and he makes all the neccesary definitions up front and follows an orderly progression of argument ... But this style might seem to argue by force of definition (which the author may well have established in previous papers) so maybe we can ask ourselves: WWGSD?

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"I've ... seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I've watched Tertium Quid glittering in the dark near the Tannhäuser Gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like direct realism in the rain. Time to die."

- Roy Batty

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"Introduction I’m looking at a poppy in front of me in normal circumstances. Do I directly perceive the poppy? Common sense says yes, and I’m going to take it that common sense is right. There’s no magic determinacy in the word ‘direct’, and its use in the philosophy of perception has caused horrible confusion, but this seems the best thing to say if we’re going to use the word ‘direct’ at all when talking about perception. It’s true that any conscious sensory perception of an object x involves a mental presentation or representation of x , as well as x itself. No mental (re)presentation, no conscious sensory perception. If anyone disagrees, the disagreement can only be a terminological matter of a kind that we must hope to be able to resolve. We don’t, however, perceive the sensation-involving mental (re)presentation, the mental (re)presentation that must exist when we consciously perceive an object. We perceive the object. We are, as some say, in ‘direct perceptual contact’ with the object.

I think it’s relatively easy to state what a direct realist must hold if direct realism is true. The basic issues have been clear for a long time; they haven’t been changed by advances in science. Descartes and Arnauld, perhaps, are the ones we should set our sights by, with some guidance from Reid. These philosophers’ writings are open to different interpretations, but their shared belief that minds are immaterial certainly doesn’t prevent them from articulating the sense in which perception of the world is direct. As Arnauld says, we can ‘know material things … immediately, i.e. without there being any intermediary between our perceptions and the object’"

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Direct Realists deny that the perception of these physical objects or events requires a prior awareness of some tertium quid ( e.g., a reified appearance, sense-datum, sensum, idea, quality-instance, species) mediating between the mind and external physical objects or events."

Again ... He is not talking about physiological requirements. Otherwise we would be talking about perception without perceptors. Peeps without peepers!
Youre exactly right, it is the TQ that is confusing me.

I never addressed my dangling asterik way above.

So is DR as a theory of perception a materialist, idealist, or dualist model of consciousness? That seems to me key here.

Youre saying its silly to think of the peepers as an intermediary... But what is the ontology of observer? Is the observer the physical brain? Or a nonmaterial subject?

Ill buy DR being direct if we assume the perceiver is the brain. Then sure, its silly to consider the eyes (brain) a middle man.

But if the perceiver is not the brain. Then what? If external physical event A causes physical event B in the brain which corresponds to conscious experience C, then i have a problem with calling this direct, yes.

Can I imagine a scenario in which perception could be more direct? No. But i would still not use the term direct to describe this.

The reason? This is how ive always conceived of perception, and ive considered myself an Indirect Realist. But that may be wrong.

Can you give me an example of IR that uses TQ?
 
http://www.tcnj.edu/~lemorvan/DR_web.pdf

"First, Direct Realism is often conflated with what is called “Naïve Realism.” Naïve Realism, a strong form of Direct Realism, claims that perceived objects or events always appear exactly as they are. One can be a Direct Realist, however, without being a Naïve Realist. This is because holding that perception of physical objects or events is direct or immediate does not entail that one must also hold that perceived objects or events always appear exactly as they are. Hence, to show that Naïve Realism is untenable does not show that Direct Realism itself is untenable."

The author clearly does not "equate" Direct Realism with Naive Realism and provides the primary reason why these two approaches should not be conflated -- because "one can be a Direct Realist ... without being a Naive Realist." The rest of the underscored text articulates the difference between these two perspectives in the Direct Realist's recognition that "perceived objects or events " do not "always appear exactly as they are." Phenomenology recognizes, as Kant already did, that what we perceive are phenomenal appearances of things rather than the things themselves, as 'things-in-themselves'.
 
The author clearly does not "equate" Direct Realism with Naive Realism and provides the primary reason why these two approaches should not be conflated -- because "one can be a Direct Realist ... without being a Naive Realist." The rest of the underscored text articulates the difference between these two perspectives in the Direct Realist's recognition that "perceived objects or events " do not "always appear exactly as they are." Phenomenology recognizes, as Kant already did, that what we perceive are phenomenal appearances of things rather than the things themselves, as 'things-in-themselves'.
(1) I never claimed the author equated the two; I simply stated that Naive Realism is a strong version of Direct Realism.

(2) I am in agreement that Direct Realism is the best way to characterize perception. There is no cognitive intermediary between the mind and the object of perception. The mind just is green.
 
"Introduction I’m looking at a poppy in front of me in normal circumstances. Do I directly perceive the poppy? Common sense says yes, and I’m going to take it that common sense is right. There’s no magic determinacy in the word ‘direct’, and its use in the philosophy of perception has caused horrible confusion, but this seems the best thing to say if we’re going to use the word ‘direct’ at all when talking about perception. It’s true that any conscious sensory perception of an object x involves a mental presentation or representation of x , as well as x itself. No mental (re)presentation, no conscious sensory perception. If anyone disagrees, the disagreement can only be a terminological matter of a kind that we must hope to be able to resolve. We don’t, however, perceive the sensation-involving mental (re)presentation, the mental (re)presentation that must exist when we consciously perceive an object. We perceive the object. We are, as some say, in ‘direct perceptual contact’ with the object.

I think it’s relatively easy to state what a direct realist must hold if direct realism is true. The basic issues have been clear for a long time; they haven’t been changed by advances in science. Descartes and Arnauld, perhaps, are the ones we should set our sights by, with some guidance from Reid. These philosophers’ writings are open to different interpretations, but their shared belief that minds are immaterial certainly doesn’t prevent them from articulating the sense in which perception of the world is direct. As Arnauld says, we can ‘know material things … immediately, i.e. without there being any intermediary between our perceptions and the object’"

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So Strawson—a direct realist—also seems to be a panpsychist/panprotopsychist?
 
So Strawson—a direct realist—also seems to be a panpsychist/panprotopsychist?
Yes. What he calls "real physicalism" entails panpsychism. I believe he wrote a paper with that title.

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Youre exactly right, it is the TQ that is confusing me.

I never addressed my dangling asterik way above.

So is DR as a theory of perception a materialist, idealist, or dualist model of consciousness? That seems to me key here.

Youre saying its silly to think of the peepers as an intermediary... But what is the ontology of observer? Is the observer the physical brain? Or a nonmaterial subject?

Ill buy DR being direct if we assume the perceiver is the brain. Then sure, its silly to consider the eyes (brain) a middle man.

But if the perceiver is not the brain. Then what? If external physical event A causes physical event B in the brain which corresponds to conscious experience C, then i have a problem with calling this direct, yes.

Can I imagine a scenario in which perception could be more direct? No. But i would still not use the term direct to describe this.

The reason? This is how ive always conceived of perception, and ive considered myself an Indirect Realist. But that may be wrong.

Can you give me an example of IR that uses TQ?
TQ is postulated in theories e.g. of Descartes and Locke (the author's paradigm cases of IR). I believe the author mentions sense data as an example in the section on hallucination (its very difficult to read the doc on my phone) ...

Sense-Data (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

The ABC bit I'll need some clarification or we can see if Strawson clears it up for you.



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TQ is postulated in theories e.g. of Descartes and Locke (the author's paradigm cases of IR). I believe the author mentions sense data as an example in the section on hallucination (its very difficult to read the doc on my phone) ...

Sense-Data (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

The ABC bit I'll need some clarification or we can see if Strawson clears it up for you.



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Yes, I'll read Strawson's paper but after a bit of poking around Wikipedia it seems that whether one is a materialist, idealist, or dualist matters greatly in their meaning of Direct Realism.

For example, it seems that some believe that perception based on physiological changes in response to environmental events is a form of representationalism and thus a form of Indirect Realism (which has always been my understating).

Whereas the author we'be been reading says no, but only in the case of TQ is IR invoked.

However, the author of the current paper seems to be a physicalist.

So it seems perhaps that whether one characterized perception oas direct or indirect is contingent on whether they are a monist or a dualist?
 
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