Good article that looks at the issues here
Twelve facts about guns and mass shootings in the United States
Twelve facts about guns and mass shootings in the United States
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December 14th School Shootings
- Thread starter Bob Watson
- Start date
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More gun control? Okay, gonna go on a mini-rant here but "more gun control" is total bull shit. First, do you have any conception of the violence I could conduct just using my hands? During my military service I was taught numerous ways to subdue, injure severely and kill just using my hands and feet. Add in a knife or a small club or stick and I could do much more violence.
Gun control laws? Really? Horseshit. Show me an area with more fricken gun control laws than Washington DC or Chicago, Il. and I will kiss you. Their gun violence is off the charts and you know why? Because fucking criminals DON'T OBEY THE FUCKING LAWS! The genie is out of the bottle with firearms. You know how to stop a bad guy shooting? The good guy shoots back. And, if I can't find a "real" gun? I could make one ... easy. It would only be a "single shot" but I can make one IF I WANT ONE BAD ENOUGH. You know what kind of gun powder I would use to "launch" my single shot? Ground up match heads. Works great and at short range and I can guarantee you a really nice hole in your belly.
The United States of America was launched when the British wanted to do a "gun grab" at Lexington and Concord back on April 19th, 1775. That is a fact most people today are not aware of, the Brits wanted to disarm the public and the public didn't like that. The 2nd Admnd. is not about hunting or target shooting, it is about the citizens having the ability to protect and defend themselves. I would not be happy with a government gun grab ... not at all. And all you gotta do is read and listen to the news. Personal firearms are more important now than ever. Sorry Kieran but buddy ... you are all fricken' wet.
Decker
Frank Stalter
Paranormal Maven
Origin of Human Intelligence --"Linked to a Genetic Accident 500 Million Years Ago"
"The study also showed that when these genes were mutated or damaged, they impaired higher mental functions. “Our work shows that the price of higher intelligence and more complex behaviors is more mental illness,” said Professor Grant."
"The study also showed that when these genes were mutated or damaged, they impaired higher mental functions. “Our work shows that the price of higher intelligence and more complex behaviors is more mental illness,” said Professor Grant."
Im well aware of the historical circumstances behind the 2nd amendment, and it made sense back when it was written because there was parity, if one side's soldier has a gun, you have a gun, if they have a cannon you have a cannon.
That works as intended when you have that parity.
But thats well and truly outdated now.
The other side has tanks, aircraft, subs with bombs that can flatten an entire city.
Citizens with guns are no match for this scenario.
The circumstances that made perfect sense when this document was drafted, no longer apply.
The 2nd ammendment no longer gives you the protections it was designed to enshrine, what it does do is give you a situation where guns are easy to get.
Dont get me wrong, i recognise the genie is out of the bottle, gun control laws would be too little too late. But imo the 2nd amendment is an outdated and thus flawed argument for giving everyone a right to bear arms.
It may be that the right to bear arms, is better justified as the right to protect yourselfs from the citizenry, rather than a Govt gone bad scenario.
The gentlemen who drafted the 2nd amendment, could not have foreseen that one day the PTB would have aircraft, tanks and subs that can launch ballistic missiles.
The right to bear popguns in the face of these weapons is pointless
That works as intended when you have that parity.
But thats well and truly outdated now.
The other side has tanks, aircraft, subs with bombs that can flatten an entire city.
Citizens with guns are no match for this scenario.
The circumstances that made perfect sense when this document was drafted, no longer apply.
The 2nd ammendment no longer gives you the protections it was designed to enshrine, what it does do is give you a situation where guns are easy to get.
Dont get me wrong, i recognise the genie is out of the bottle, gun control laws would be too little too late. But imo the 2nd amendment is an outdated and thus flawed argument for giving everyone a right to bear arms.
It may be that the right to bear arms, is better justified as the right to protect yourselfs from the citizenry, rather than a Govt gone bad scenario.
The gentlemen who drafted the 2nd amendment, could not have foreseen that one day the PTB would have aircraft, tanks and subs that can launch ballistic missiles.
The right to bear popguns in the face of these weapons is pointless
Kieran
Paranormal Adept
Don, clearly we've a difference of opinion on this.
Ok Don, you keep your gun, but how many more kids and innocent people will die in the meantime ( if the American gun laws don't change?) If we could trust everybody with the handling of a a gun and they wouldn't go out and commit a crime or do massacres like this. Everything would be fine of course. But facts clearly show, because of your current gun laws, people of not sound mind have too easy of an access to guns and they're going out committing crimes , that might not have been committed if they had no gun. We have the police and the army to sort out the bad guys, like whats the point of having police force if citizens are ones who are deciding who lives or dies? A guy who robs you're house should he be blown away for taking some of your possessions? Seems bit over the top to me.
When you make so easy to purchase a gun i blame the society for allowing it in the first place, Don. That's just my view.
This is 2012 not 1775 society has dramatically changed and moved on since than. Too many nutters going around with guns nowadays, Don. My personal believe is having less guns, the more safer the society is. Anyway, its later here were i am have a good night.
Well Mike, ask any surviving Nazi's from WW II how they felt about armed enemy citizens who were armed with rifles and pistols when the Nazi's were still a force to be feared. Guerilla warfare is a bitch, was a bitch then and is a bitch now. It is what is being waged in Afghanistan, Syria and all over the Middle East. Viet Nam, Central America, etc. etc. etc. I think your argument is very flawed as history has shown us. The "little war" has always worked. The trick is to make the large army bleed enough ... until they want to quit. I know ... I was there.
Decker
Decker
Muadib
Paranormal Adept
I have to agree with Don when he says that the genie is out of the bottle, the government could grab every registered firearm in this country tomorrow and that would accomplish.... nothing. The fact is that there are just too many weapons out there, just look at immigration, we can't stop that and if you don't think that people will be smuggling guns across the border from Mexico if the government up and bans privately held legal firearms you're crazy, the prices will immediately go through the roof and as we've seen with alcohol and drugs prohibition simply does not work. Criminals don't care that drugs are prohibited and they won't care that guns are prohibited, someone is always going to be there ready and willing to meet the demand for illegal goods. All it's going to do is make things harder on your average law abiding citizen, filling jails and prisons with good people who want to be able to secure their homes and defend their families is not the answer to this problem.
Thats only one example Don, how many of hiroshimas citizens were armed ?
Fat lot it did any of them.
The little war only works if the large army pulls its punches.
I'm not suggesting you give up your kill toys, i have plenty of my own, hunting bows, swords, even a pair of Klingon batleths, Like you ive been trained to be lethal with my bare hands, i can kill a guy with a properly held pencil.
I was taught weapons classes and shown how to look for them in everyday items, thus my training with the Bo (long staff) works just as well with a broom handle or curtain rod. My hanbo training works with a walking stick or umbrella, Kusari-fundo training works with a telephone handset and cord or long socks and a handful of change.
My only argument is the reasons behind the 2nd amendment are outdated in a modern world, and the debate should imo take that on board.
The reasoning behind the right to bear arms should not fall back on the 2nd amendment imo.
It doesnt acknowledge the reality, and you cant address what you dont acknowledge.
The 2nd amendment was drafted to address a situation that no longer applies, its underlying premise was to give the citizens parity with an oposing force, that can never be the case now.
The logic inherant in the 2nd amendment would translate in modern terms to a citizens right to own nuclear bombs.............................
It may be as you say the only solution is to change the law so everyone must bear arms
My only argument is the logic inherent in the 2nd amendment is imo outdated, and no longer a valid justification.
Fat lot it did any of them.
The little war only works if the large army pulls its punches.
I'm not suggesting you give up your kill toys, i have plenty of my own, hunting bows, swords, even a pair of Klingon batleths, Like you ive been trained to be lethal with my bare hands, i can kill a guy with a properly held pencil.
I was taught weapons classes and shown how to look for them in everyday items, thus my training with the Bo (long staff) works just as well with a broom handle or curtain rod. My hanbo training works with a walking stick or umbrella, Kusari-fundo training works with a telephone handset and cord or long socks and a handful of change.
My only argument is the reasons behind the 2nd amendment are outdated in a modern world, and the debate should imo take that on board.
The reasoning behind the right to bear arms should not fall back on the 2nd amendment imo.
It doesnt acknowledge the reality, and you cant address what you dont acknowledge.
The 2nd amendment was drafted to address a situation that no longer applies, its underlying premise was to give the citizens parity with an oposing force, that can never be the case now.
The logic inherant in the 2nd amendment would translate in modern terms to a citizens right to own nuclear bombs.............................
It may be as you say the only solution is to change the law so everyone must bear arms
My only argument is the logic inherent in the 2nd amendment is imo outdated, and no longer a valid justification.
Konrad Hartmann
Paranormal Maven
I don't claim to know exactly what would happen if we ban guns in the U.S. Maybe we would no longer have any school shootings. But regardless of how one feels about gun control, any decision made should take into account the existence and extent of organized crime in the U.S. Should we proceed to outlaw guns, I would predict a similar outcome to the banning of drugs. That is, we will likely see the smuggling and illegal sale of weapons grow into a much larger source of revenue for the mafia, cartels, and other smaller entities. It won't be quite as large as drugs, but it will be a very big business. Currently many of the Mexican cartels are involved in quite ambitious activities including but not limited to moving jumbo jets full of narcotics; building submarines used to ship narcotics, illegally logging and mining and exporting natural resources, and laundering vast sums of cash through Asia. It would be a relatively simple operation to set up a number of machine shops, invest in some CNC machines, and proceed to crank out some AK-47 variant. They could do it in Central or South America, or they could even do it in Africa and ship the guns to the Americas. Gun bans will be good news for organized crime. Will they stop school shootings? I don't know. The killer nerd profile might have less access to black market weapons, so it would be harder for him to purchase them. Hopefully he wouldn't simply go the route of procuring simple bomb plans and using homemade explosives.
I guess my main point is this: any new laws passed can and will have consequences we didn't plan for. We have deep, active, and dynamic criminal cultures in the U.S. We have sectors of our major cities where police do not go. When passing a new law, one also has to look at the prospects of enforcing such a law.
But even if we didn't have guns, I do worry about these new humans, coming out with no soul, no remorse, no inhibition against killing. I still wonder if there is a chemical influence. There has been discussion of autism correlating with anti-depressant usage by the mothers. I'm not saying autism has a connection with violence; I'm just using it as an example of a possible pharmacological influence on human behavior. Trying to substantiate such an idea with hard data would be difficult if not impossible. But still, I wonder. And given the American trend of more and more psycho-pharmaceuticals being prescribed to more and more people, I would like to see some reassuring information that this trend is not producing sociopaths.
On the other hand, pharmaceuticals have become much better in recent years at controlling mental illness. One potential result of this may be that, in the past, a given individual may have lived in an institution. Now, with better medications, that person is able to live outside of a hospital, which is all well and good until the medication stops masking the illness. That scenario might not apply in this situation; it's just a thought.
I guess my main point is this: any new laws passed can and will have consequences we didn't plan for. We have deep, active, and dynamic criminal cultures in the U.S. We have sectors of our major cities where police do not go. When passing a new law, one also has to look at the prospects of enforcing such a law.
But even if we didn't have guns, I do worry about these new humans, coming out with no soul, no remorse, no inhibition against killing. I still wonder if there is a chemical influence. There has been discussion of autism correlating with anti-depressant usage by the mothers. I'm not saying autism has a connection with violence; I'm just using it as an example of a possible pharmacological influence on human behavior. Trying to substantiate such an idea with hard data would be difficult if not impossible. But still, I wonder. And given the American trend of more and more psycho-pharmaceuticals being prescribed to more and more people, I would like to see some reassuring information that this trend is not producing sociopaths.
On the other hand, pharmaceuticals have become much better in recent years at controlling mental illness. One potential result of this may be that, in the past, a given individual may have lived in an institution. Now, with better medications, that person is able to live outside of a hospital, which is all well and good until the medication stops masking the illness. That scenario might not apply in this situation; it's just a thought.
Thats just fine and dandy when the enemy is only packing Muskets.....
It is ridiculous to suggest the people constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops , when those regular troops now have air superiority, tanks, ballistic missiles ,armed drones etc etc etc.
When you compare the disparity between the popguns you are allowed to buy at walmart
And what a regular army can throw at you, the 2nd amendment is moot.
The 2nd amendment no longer serves its original purpose, all it does is give a convenient excuse to those who want to own killtoys.
We get these massacres the world over, but i for one am glad to be living in a country where they dont happen 3 times a year, every bloody year.
Intelligent sensitive people cant help, cannot help, but look at this situation and ask what can be done to stop this obscenity.
You cant help but recognise there has to be a connection between these inevitable massacres, and an ability for anyone to buy guns and ammo at the local supermart
In contrast
Mentally ill ppl do this shit the world over, our own martin bryant was a nutcase
Martin Bryant - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This chinese nutter could only access a knife, 22 injured instead of dead................
Access to a firearm should be hard, not easy.
After Bryants killing spree we made it hard to get guns, we havent had a massacre since, not saying thats the fix, just that it makes it harder to do this sort of stuff.
Bearing arms should be a priviledge, one you have to earn, not a right.
Thats how it is here now, if i want a gun i have to go to a lot of effort, i have to join a club, sit tests, pass a police check, install a gun and ammo safe, and be prepared to let police knock on my door anytime they want without a warrant to inspect that safe. If i really NEED a gun i can have one, but i cant just lob down to my local supermart and buy one over the counter.
Thats fucking crazy
Knife attack at Chinese school injures 22 children
Mentally ill ppl do this shit the world over, our own martin bryant was a nutcase
Martin Bryant - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This chinese nutter could only access a knife, 22 injured instead of dead................
Access to a firearm should be hard, not easy.
After Bryants killing spree we made it hard to get guns, we havent had a massacre since, not saying thats the fix, just that it makes it harder to do this sort of stuff.
Bearing arms should be a priviledge, one you have to earn, not a right.
Thats how it is here now, if i want a gun i have to go to a lot of effort, i have to join a club, sit tests, pass a police check, install a gun and ammo safe, and be prepared to let police knock on my door anytime they want without a warrant to inspect that safe. If i really NEED a gun i can have one, but i cant just lob down to my local supermart and buy one over the counter.
Thats fucking crazy
boomerang
Paranormal Adept
You are quite right. If this were the 16th century we would probably be torturing people in search of biblical demons. But my point was an attempt at a more narrow focus on one aspect of the so called "gun" problem. There is just one hulluva lot of free floating anger out there combined with lack of inhibitory control and disconnect from human reality, IMO. Something fundamental seems (I can only evaluate subjectively) to have changed in my lifetime.
It is undeniable that it's just too late for the US with guns. Even if that country never sold or made another gun, there are already more than a billion guns there now. It probably is the case - and I'm sorry to use an NRA slogan- but if you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns.
In terms of schools etc, shit they will need to be like Fort Knox to have a chance at determined nutter.
For America, it's too late. What's the latest with the orange-haired guy from the Colorado shooting? What's the motive been in the last few spree killings?
In terms of schools etc, shit they will need to be like Fort Knox to have a chance at determined nutter.
For America, it's too late. What's the latest with the orange-haired guy from the Colorado shooting? What's the motive been in the last few spree killings?
Bob Watson
Paranormal Adept
when guns become outlawed only out laws will have guns
Wade
FeralNormal master
There will be plenty of finger pointing going on, easy accessibility of guns, bad parenting, bad wiring on the kids part ( this sounds flippant but I can’t think of a better term) music, the media, violence in video games, the internet empowering the disenchanted, all the above, none of the above etc. I recommend reading a copy of loren coleman’s the copycat effect if you haven’t already, also interesting is Outbreak ! The encyclopedia of extraordinary social behavior. Both these books deal with the subject of behavior contagion which also helps explain the seemingly erratic behavior of panic trading. A form of pack behavior seemingly at times for no discernible reason
Whenever you get these spurts of news making behavior be they mass shootings, car chases, or whatever will come next it sends a very powerful signal to the disenfranchised and those that feel put upon by society. I think their already considerable angst gets multiplied and what follows is a strong urge to up the ante.
It’s sort of ironic that don used the term “genie let out of the bottle” as far as getting a handle on the number of firearms out there, as not only is that true, I was going to (and still will) use that same term in a different context, I think that the genie was let out of the bottle on societal behavior and even though this has been a talking point for some time I think that there is a large part…and getting larger… of society that just isn’t equipped to handle more than a certain level of troubling news , even if it is remote and of no immediate concern to them and especially nowadays with the constant influx of news (usually in the form of bad) and coming at you from your tv, radio, computer, phone and just overhearing various conversations it doesn’t take a person of diminished capacity to snap, one just has to feel threatened, angry and confused in order to strike out at others. Also it would appear that one needn’t have a congenital behavioral disorder, one can aquire one in a depressingly short period of time
Whenever events like this happen you hear sociologists quick to point out that in the scheme of things these events are aberrations and that any talk of this or that being on the upswing is usually imagined. This may be true in context of a specific event and that given the numbers of people and guns on this planet I could see that these events, given the sheer numbers of the above, these shootings are anomalies IF you take out the inevitable copycat events, but I would argue that this is seeing things from a very narrow point of view. I would say…without having any published records at hand… that any abnormal behavior collectively has for some time been on the increase. of course in order to back that statement up I suppose one would have to come up with what does and does not constitute abnormal behavior/actions. And it if true, it would seem that this will be a situation where it will be easier to address the symptons not the disease.
Whenever you get these spurts of news making behavior be they mass shootings, car chases, or whatever will come next it sends a very powerful signal to the disenfranchised and those that feel put upon by society. I think their already considerable angst gets multiplied and what follows is a strong urge to up the ante.
It’s sort of ironic that don used the term “genie let out of the bottle” as far as getting a handle on the number of firearms out there, as not only is that true, I was going to (and still will) use that same term in a different context, I think that the genie was let out of the bottle on societal behavior and even though this has been a talking point for some time I think that there is a large part…and getting larger… of society that just isn’t equipped to handle more than a certain level of troubling news , even if it is remote and of no immediate concern to them and especially nowadays with the constant influx of news (usually in the form of bad) and coming at you from your tv, radio, computer, phone and just overhearing various conversations it doesn’t take a person of diminished capacity to snap, one just has to feel threatened, angry and confused in order to strike out at others. Also it would appear that one needn’t have a congenital behavioral disorder, one can aquire one in a depressingly short period of time
Whenever events like this happen you hear sociologists quick to point out that in the scheme of things these events are aberrations and that any talk of this or that being on the upswing is usually imagined. This may be true in context of a specific event and that given the numbers of people and guns on this planet I could see that these events, given the sheer numbers of the above, these shootings are anomalies IF you take out the inevitable copycat events, but I would argue that this is seeing things from a very narrow point of view. I would say…without having any published records at hand… that any abnormal behavior collectively has for some time been on the increase. of course in order to back that statement up I suppose one would have to come up with what does and does not constitute abnormal behavior/actions. And it if true, it would seem that this will be a situation where it will be easier to address the symptons not the disease.
Frank Stalter
Paranormal Maven
2nd Amendment rights supporters often refer to responsible gun owners. Clearly, the mother of the murderer, while legally owning those guns, was nowhere near responsible with them. The silence from these gun supporters in this is deafening.
You mean, of course, like training her soon on a shooting range. Sigh!
Frank Stalter
Paranormal Maven
And knowing better than anyone the son's psychiatric issues . . . . and then keeping that many guns in the house . . . . unsecured. She paid for her stupidity with her life, which is no great loss.
I think it obvious the guy was extremely angry at the world. How best to hurt that world but target it's most vulnerable and precious thing (the kids)?
So as far as I'm concerned he was angry but why..
So as far as I'm concerned he was angry but why..