December 14th School Shootings

[Randall]

And some of these kids were 5 yrs old, at what age do we let them defend themselves with guns

At what age are people allowed to legally purchase a gun and what is required to be able to legally carry one for the purpose of self defense? At that point, if the teachers can do it, then the students should also have the same rights ... should they not? Or would you prefer for only the people in authority to have all the guns? How exactly would you go about enforcing that?

 

[mike]

I really dont have an answer to this situation.

I remember a quote i heard long ago along the lines of

"More good and honorable men have died at the hands of cowards, since the invention of gunpowder. Than at any other time in history"

In a perfect world, perhaps they would only be in the hands of those who have an absolute need to use them like the military (like nukes are)

Its not a popular notion with many, but i think restrictions rather than free to buy at the local hardware store is a safer, and lessor evil.

I think minimising access, minimises the risk, thats my honest opinion its not worth much, but if i dont express it as i see it, its worth nothing at all.

You dont put out a fire with gasolene, you do it by removing the fuel source.

Guns in the wrong hands are dangerous, the more guns in the more wrong hands. The more danger.

Down here if you really want one, you have to join a gun club, put in the time on the range and pass the tests to prove you have a need (self defence is not a reason here)
You have to store the gun in a disassembled state, firing pin removed in a secure gun safe, and the police can knock on your door anytime without a warrant and inspect the setup.
You have to carry the weapons from the home to the range or place of work if you need one for that, in a locked case.
Breach any of these conditions are the guns are confiscated and destroyed.

We will never stop guns getting into the hands of crims, but we can make it hard not easy for them to get them.
That to me, hard rather than easy access to guns, is the wiser policy.

Its never going to be a cure all, but at least its an attempt at prevention.

As far as i know the 2nd amendment doesnt say crazy ppl dont have a right to bear arms for self defense.

 

[mike]

Now i know the "figures" are hotly contested here, but

The crackdown comes as gun-related murders and gun theft have declined dramatically since the gun-law reforms after the 1996 Port Arthur massacre.
New research by the Australian Institute of Criminology shows that the theft of firearms has dropped 72% since 1995-96, with gun-related homicides also down. Guns now rank behind knives and physical assault as the most common method of murder in Australia.

Police set to target firearm storage - National - theage.com.au

How to Get a Gun License in Australia | eHow.com

How to Obtain an Australian Gun License | eHow.com

 

[Goggs Mackay]

The reality is that the USA is just - as horrible as it is - gonna have to always endure these things every now and then. There is no turning back. Someone determined will be able to source guns and that is that.

 

[Wade]

So the NRA'$ response to the tragedy in sandy hook and elsewhere is to have armed guards in every school !!?? Such Brass

In addition to reading, writing, and 'rhythmatic, I suggest a new course, duck and cover.

NRA

Take your pick of stories, no, april 1st didn't come early.

 

[mike]

Yeah that idea is flawed in many ways.

The only counter to a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun........

Only true if the good guy wins the fight at the OK corral, and the bad guy has the element of surprise. Which means if he plans it right he gets to draw first. (or snipe from range).

Another really important thing to remember in regards to the 2nd amendment, "arms" in those days were single shot muzzle loading muskets and pistols.
You cannot commit a massacre with that sort of weapon

Maybe thats the answer, keep the 2nd amendment, but outlaw all but muzzle loading pop guns

 

[Randall]

Ashtar Command - Dead Man's Gun​

​

 

[Konrad Hartmann]

I think one argument for having teachers being able to carry, or for the presence of an armed guard or police officer, in a school is that the killer nerd types seem to go for soft targets. They aren't going after drug dealers, bikers, or cops; they seem to want a sort of video game experience involving helpless victims. I could be wrong, but they seem to kill themselves (like Lanza) or, worse, surrender (like Brevik) when the police show up.

How times change. In 2000, Republicans criticized Clinton for promoting the idea of police officers in schools:
Clinton Pledges Funds to Add Police to Schools - Los Angeles Times

In other gun news, 3D printer guns:
Congress’ Next Gun Battle: 3-D Printers | Mother Jones

If there becomes available a 3d printer that can use steel, would we see the ability for anyone to make a weapon? If small-scale, modular machining equipment was available with downloadable schematics for building weapons, what impact would this have?

 

[pixelsmith]

Because he's flying those drones himself, right? I wonder if you whined as much when Bush was massacring Iraqi's and the Afghani people at the same time? Not that I approve of the drone strikes but I think if we measured his kill count against some of our other presidents, it would be pretty low.

No but he is the Commander in Chief right? I dislike the bush family more than obama but there is really no difference.

 

[pixelsmith]

I think a good compromise would be better background checks for gun owners to make sure they aren't mentally ill themselves or living with someone who is mentally ill, if they are then mandatory gun safes with surprise inspections and if something is off you pay a hefty fine or go to jail. Or on the more high tech side of things, guns with built in palm print recognition that won't fire unless held by their respective owners? I'm just tossing out a few ideas here, I'd be interested to hear what others think.

I realize that this won't do anything for guns bought on the black market, but it may have helped prevent or delay this latest incident. He may have had to find some other way to act out that wouldn't have gotten so many people killed.

absurd ideas. most people killed by guns have been shot by illegal guns in gun free zones.

 

[Muadib]

absurd ideas. most people killed by guns have been shot by illegal guns in gun free zones.

What's really absurd is that I said in my post that my ideas wouldn't do anything to prevent crimes committed with illegal guns and yet you still felt the need to point that out. Thank you, Captain Obvious, any more brilliant comments?

 

[Randall]

absurd ideas. most people killed by guns have been shot by illegal guns in gun free zones.

If a perpetrator knew he or she would not only have to deal with police, but also any number of plain clothed civilians who could come out of the woodwork and take them down before they could do enough damage to make headlines, would that help reduce these incidents? I tend to think so because these crimes seem dependent on shock value associated with places of cultural significance. So maybe what we need is some sort of program to foster cooperation between the public and law enforcement that focuses on these high risk targets. Something like an expanded neighborhood watch that involves recruitment and training of volunteers in the community.

 

[pixelsmith]

What's really absurd is that I said in my post that my ideas wouldn't do anything to prevent crimes committed with illegal guns and yet you still felt the need to point that out. Thank you, Captain Obvious, any more brilliant comments?

I have a quote rather than a comment: "For the first time in history does a nation have complete gun registration. Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient. The world will follow our lead in the future." - Adolph Hitler, 15 April 1935, in address to the Reichstag

 

[Muadib]

I have a quote rather than a comment: "For the first time in history does a nation have complete gun registration. Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient. The world will follow our lead in the future." - Adolph Hitler, 15 April 1935, in address to the Reichstag

Only problem with that is Hitler never said it, any more brilliant BS to add?

BOGUS, FAKE & QUESTIONABLE QUOTES
FALSELY ATTRIBUTED TO THE
ANTI-GUNNERS
Gun grabbers twist facts, quote out of context, misuse statistics and generally misrepresent their real agenda at every turn. And, unfortunately, these deceitful tactics have led to the passage of some gun control measures. Their successes through dishonesty have apparently turned some well-intentioned pro-gun rights people into "creative writers."
But no matter how loathsome our enemies become, that is still no excuse for falsely attributing quotes to them. In fact, citing a proven false quote only discredits the rest of the message, even if the person may only be unintentionally and unknowingly repeating the made-up quote. This can be very damaging to our cause in debates, letters to the editor, and interviews. Furthermore, resorting to their methods only lowers us to their level.
While it is impossible to prove that these are phony quotes, no historian has been able to verify the original citation required for authenticity. It is better to be safe than sorry. One anti-gun judge discredited a letter writer by pointing out the fake quote used in that letter to the editor. The judge writes, "(An oft-cited Hitler "quote" about gun registration has been proved to be a hoax, though that has not stopped many from repeating it.)" CLICK HERE to view the entire Judge's column, complete with many inaccuracies of his own.
Please do the pro-gun cause a favor – If you locate any websites innocently citing any of the following quotes, please forward the URL of this page to that page’s webmaster. Furthermore, if you can locate proof that one of these quotes is in fact valid, please forward the information HERE!

Adolf Hitler
Perhaps the most infamous bogus quote is attributed to Adolf Hitler. Usually, the questionable passage reads as follows:

1935 will go down in History! For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration! Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient and the world will follow our lead to the future!​

Note: This passage sometimes features different punctuation and slight wording changes including a beginning of, ‘For the first time in history, a....’ Various citations include: Adolf Hitler, April 15, 1935, in address to the Reichstag; Adolf Hitler 1935 'Berlin Daily' (Loose English Translation) April 15th, 1935 Page 3 Article 2 by Einleitung Von Eberhard Beckmann -"Abschied vom Hessenland!". "Adolf" is sometimes misspelled as ‘Adolph’ on the Internet.
While the above 'quote' makes a nice T-shirt, there are numerous problems with this alleged statement. (1) It violates the rule of not beginning a sentence with a number. (2) It isn’t phrased in Hitler’s style. (3) Major changes to the German gun laws occurred in 1928 and 1931 (under the Weimar Republic) and in 1938 (under the Nazi’s). No significant changes happened in the gun registration laws in 1935. Furthermore, the changes in 1928 and 1931 were designed to disarm the Nazis and Communists and therefore it is doubtful that Hitler would trumpet the success of any law aimed at his goon squads.
However, if anyone finds the proper historical context from which this questionable quote was pulled from, and confirms it with their own eyes, please forward the details and your contact information HERE!
Until then, please click here for some proven Nazi Quotes. (Coming soon)


Ouch. To quote Chris: Do your research!

 

[pixelsmith]

ok i have no problem being corrected. i am wrong often.

I am probably wrong that he murdered 20 million disarmed citizens too.

 

[Muadib]

ok i have no problem being corrected. i am wrong often.

I am probably wrong that he murdered 20 million disarmed citizens too.

I'm not sure on your numbers but what I am sure of is the fact that I have never once advocated disarming the nation, on any level. My comment was simply an idea aimed at keeping guns out of the hands of people with mental illness, nothing more.

 

[pixelsmith]

Ok... lets call it 1 million disarmed jews executed I don't care. Gun control kills more than it saves. The genocide in Turkey, Soviet Union, Germany and occupied Europe, China, Guatemala, Uganda, Cambodia, Rawanda, etc... proves this.

Mentally ill people are usually on mind altering drugs, I suggest you go after big pharma and the medical community rather than mentally competent law abiding citizens looking to defend themselves.

 

[Muadib]

Ok... lets call it 1 million disarmed jews executed I don't care. Gun control kills more than it saves. The genocide in Turkey, Soviet Union, Germany and occupied Europe, China, Guatemala, Uganda, Cambodia, Rawanda, etc... proves this.

Mentally ill people are usually on mind altering drugs, I suggest you go after big pharma and the medical community rather than mentally competent law abiding citizens looking to defend themselves.

Let me get this straight, you're saying it's the fault of the drug companies and the doctors that people go nuts and commit violent acts? Because there was no violence before modern medicine right? Give me a break, take that crap back to the Alex Jones forums where you found it.

If we had a system in place to check whether or not someone who was purchasing a firearm was mentally ill, or if members of their household who would potentially have access to the firearm were mentally ill, it would have saved lives in this case and a few others if I'm not mistaken.

God forbid you had to fill out another piece of paper or wait a couple extra days before you purchased that new home arsenal so you can stand up to the bad ol' gubmint when they come to throw you in that FEMA camp.

 

[pixelsmith]

did i say there was no violence before modern day medicine? what does alex jones forums have to do with this dialogue?

we DO have a system in place, yes it should be reviewed on a regular basis. I don't have a problem filling out paper work, I just did actually. I am not as worried about "gubmint" as I am about mentally ill people shooting up schools and malls and other "gun free" zones.

Gun restrictions affect only law abiding citizens.

 

[Muadib]

did i say there was no violence before modern day medicine? what does alex jones forums have to do with this dialogue?

we DO have a system in place, yes it should be reviewed on a regular basis. I don't have a problem filling out paper work, I just did actually. I am not as worried about "gubmint" as I am about mentally ill people shooting up schools and malls and other "gun free" zones.

Gun restrictions affect only law abiding citizens.

Yes, and if we had a system for keeping them away from people with mental illness or who shared living space with the mentally ill, this tragedy wouldn't have happened the way it did. This kids mom was a law abiding citizen, yet that didn't stop her son from taking advantage of the fact that she wasn't a responsible gun owner. I don't see the problem with trying to keep guns out of the hands of people with mental illness or keeping them from having easy access to guns. No it won't stop a criminal from getting his hands on a gun if he really wants it, but it may have stopped this tragedy before it happened. Do we really want our entire society to have to be armed 24/7 just to feel safe? Do we want armed guards in our schools? While it may not bother me, I have a feeling there are a lot of parents out there who it would bother. This is an easy compromise aimed at shutting down these nerd type killers who typically obtain guns from their law abiding parents who don't take the proper precautions.