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Demons: What's Your Take?

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Grifynne

Paranormal Adept
Demons have been a thorn in my side recently. No, I don't mean a little red impish thing is stabbing me in the side with a pitch fork. I should preface this by saying that I am not an overly religious person. I believe there is something after we die, and I believe there are spirits, ghosts, whatever you want to call them. The older I'm getting, the less inclined I find myself to fall in step with organized religion.

I am of the opinion that if there is a big guy hanging around in the clouds, I think he may be a little less nurturing and hands on than we think. And so, to put it far simpler than I probably should, if I am not certain about the existence or constant involvement of a single all-knowing God, then how can I be so sure all things evil are manufactured courtesy of old Beezlebub and his demon minions?

Now, having delved much deeper into the rocky pit that is the paranormal and having lived through a couple more decades of personal experiences (not necessarily paranormal, I mean life in general), I just have a hard time swallowing everything that is classified as demonic. I notice some people immediately call something a demon when it acts in a way that they interpret as frightening or disagreeable.

This really got me thinking as I listened to another paranormal radio show earlier today and found myself instinctively skipping past a portion that involved a discussion of demons and exorcisms without realizing what I was doing. I also recall the Paracast episode with Lisa Lindley. Others may not agree, but I felt like she was applying a heavy filter to the situation based on her strong religious beliefs.

Do I think there could be bad entities out there? Of course I do. Just like there are bad people. Living personalities come in all flavors, from mildly jerk-ish to serial killer. So, if you subscribe to the idea that something in us continues after we stop sucking down oxygen, then why is it such a stretch to think that there could be nasty things that are among the dead? I also think that some unknown beings could be pure evil, maybe worthy of the demon title. I just don't think every bit of unpleasant activity can be chalked up to the Christian interpretation of demon. The way I see it, there's a lot of potential grey area that immediately gets shoved into the demon zone more quickly than it should be. Or maybe that's just the media side of things I'm seeing because maybe demons sell better than the other stuff, I don't know.

I am curious what everyone else thinks about demons? I suppose this is directed primarily at those who have a belief in some kind of afterlife and/or the existence of unknown entities. Atheists, pure skeptics and the like are welcome to chime in of course, but I suppose this discussion would be a moot point if you don't believe in the paranormal or the afterlife to begin with.

So I ask: What's your take on demons?
demon_clip_art.jpg
 
man is a being of strong emotion for good and evil. these emotions manifest sometimes. when one dies some times the emotional tie to a place keeps the echo of those emotions there these are called ghost. some time when there is strong projections of good emotions that projection is called an angel. like wise with negative emotion.. demons. Demons are real they exist. creations of mans dark emotions. they prey upon those of like mind. sometimes they find one who's negative emotions are strong. Hitler Manson Stalin. they guide them give them dark and twisted evils. in turn they feed upon the dark energys released to make them stronger. Like wise with angels. they find and nurture all that is good in man. Ghandi the dali lama. ect. so man creates nurtures and subtains botlh enitys for as long as man exist.
 
man is a being of strong emotion for good and evil. these emotions manifest sometimes. when one dies some times the emotional tie to a place keeps the echo of those emotions there these are called ghost. some time when there is strong projections of good emotions that projection is called an angel. like wise with negative emotion.. demons. Demons are real they exist. creations of mans dark emotions. they prey upon those of like mind. sometimes they find one who's negative emotions are strong. Hitler Manson Stalin. they guide them give them dark and twisted evils. in turn they feed upon the dark energys released to make them stronger. Like wise with angels. they find and nurture all that is good in man. Ghandi the dali lama. ect. so man creates nurtures and subtains botlh enitys for as long as man exist.


Just out of curiosity, if you believe angels/demons are the dark/light thoughts, do you think there is the possibility of something that is angelic or demonic in nature that was not born of human thought? And do you think there is a single hand (thinking along the lines of God or the devil) that guides both factions or do they just move on their own free will?
 
I do believe that there is angels/demons not born of human thought. there are sprits that dwell in nature as well. these are nature sprits or fey. No I don't think there are gnomes or faries flittering about these are more primal. as for a single hand that guides things. .I believe that all things come from the Goddess and all things return to her. that the greatest gift she gives us is free will.
and so it is with angels and demons. they operate on a scale I can not even hope to understand.
 
I would seriously recommend talking to Amy Allen for a almost practical and non biased look into these matters. I think and stress think (IMO) she could possibly be the real thing. Yah yah I know God hates mediums blah blah. I am not saying to become or embrace anything, however this is a serious question that needs to be handled with great care. Good luck and remember we may never know the real answers, if there is one. Did your parents tell you everything growing up? I know mine didn't.
 
If one is open to the idea that we exist in another form after we pass on, maybe that which we call demons are energies of people that were evil in real life only now they are empowered, unencumbered by their once human form.
 
There's living things that we can't see without a microscope. There's a growing body of evidence for "multiverse" type theories. Our floating ball of wet dirt isn't even a grain of sand on the beach of the universe. It doesn't seem unreasonable that there would be life forms that we don't fully understand at this point in time. If there's douchebag humans, I don't see why there can't be douchebags of other "intelligent" species.
 
Before I can comment, I would like a your definition of what constitutes a "demon".
Is it a red skinnned goat legged horn-spouting minion of hell? Are they mostly invisible and whisper subconscious suggestions in our ears?
Or do thay take a fully corporeal existence wreaking havok on peoples lives?
Are they just denizens of other dimensions? Or is there a religious side to them?
Or, are they just thoughtforms created by the religiously over-zealous?
 
Tulpas, yes. Otherworldly entities that are destructive, yes. But arcane demons, not so much.

In my opinion, evil needs no outside source to make men into monsters.
 
Now, having delved much deeper into the rocky pit that is the paranormal and having lived through a couple more decades of personal experiences (not necessarily paranormal), I mean life in general, I just have a hard time swallowing everything that is classified as demonic. I notice some people immediately call something a demon when it acts in a way that they interpret as frightening or disagreeable.
@Christopher O'Brien
Isn't it amazing how the older we get the more we tend to grow wiser? What we're talking about when it comes to demons are myths that manifest themselves in various beliefs and phenomena. Christopher's Trickster could be considered to be a particularly interesting brand of demon. The whole idea is wrapped up in concepts of morality, justice and the nature of existence. What might be considered an angel to one person would be considered a demon to another. Ultimately, in order to answer these questions one needs to focus on the concept of truth as a philosophical issue rather than as a religious principle. From there one can unravel the whole hierarchy of spiritual entities and put them into their proper place.
 
The problem with the label of demon as it is usually applied by religious fundamentalists is that it seems aimed, like everything else in the fundamentalist's world view, at defining any and all phenomena in no other terms than within a particular religious or mythological world view. It's a kind of warning against active inquiry in lieu of accepting rote definition from higher social authority. No sensible thinker should have a problem with the concept of either human or non-human entities deserving the label "evil". But we have an obligation as thinking individuals to question the nature of whatever source of it we might encounter. Unless, of course, we find the natural consequences of doing so to be unacceptable. If I were to find a cause-and-effect relationship between investigating strange things and "evil" happenings, would I cease and desist? Most probably ! But I have not personally seen such a link. Perhaps others have.
 
Taking in all of the above what your left with at the end is language and ultimately communication as a transference of energy. Language has with it its connotations, meanings and shapes the world and your paradigm. People who use the word demon are really telling me that they believe in a Judaeo-christian paradigm, wether they are conscious of it or not. Ironically the only person keeping demons and satan(ism) alive are christians.
 
I do believe that there are entities which may have in the past been called demons or angels. I do think that science will eventually prove these entities to exist but in order to properly pursue of even acknowledge such things we need to strip them of their cultural baggage, its not going to help anyone by applying other peoples imaginative assertions and descriptions and control mechanisms. Saying that tho, it is important to understand and acknowledge peoples experiences in regards to the phenomena and not to overrule or mis/re-interpret peoples experiences but see them contextually.

If you would like a more recent and pertinent understanding of the cultural/human need to explore these considerations you should look at current treatment of schizophrenics with avatar therapy. BBC News - Avatars ease voices for schizophrenia patients

As always a modern era proves nothing but that, we pretty much were doing these things already but man has to recontextualise and place perception through whatever current paradigm is the norm; science, psychology and computer analogic modelling.
And so history repeats and loops , with different filters, the same lyrics the same notes, different instruments, the same tones and timbres.. echoes of past experiences reverberating through the corridors of time.
 
I agree mostly with the linguistic and cultural considerations above. I don't believe in demons. On days when I feel more creative about consciousness I think there's a good chance that whatever is the unique spark that co-exists with this physical body, the one dressed in the memories and experiences of this body, that it could get recycled over and over again as it floats on down the samsara river. But as for hell and heaven (or the J. Witness cult's version of only 144,000 getting to stay in the immortality hotel), those things sound pretty absolutist and improbable up against a life defined by change. Demons don't seem to be about process at all, just a name that is a placeholder for what we call evil. It's also a fine, personified way to scare the crap out of kids. I remember being eternally fixated on the demon standing amidst all the real people in the illustations from Sunday School literature of the 70's. They always stood right beside the kids that lied, stole or cheated.
063-85612l.jpg

(I couldn't find one of those pics anywhere?!)

Still not too clear though on how our cultural narratives about evil connects to the schizophrenics feeling better (by learning to see their negative voices as externalized digital entities that could then allow for CBT to help play a role in diminishing the power of those voices). In this example it seems that the 'evil demon' lies within and be cast out through mindfulness practice and the realization that evil can be defeated through goodness. Oh...ok, never mind.
 
Wow, thanks for all the responses everyone! I have been away since this last post and I am exhausted this evening so I plan to come back tomorrow and page through and post some (hopefully) meaningful responses. I really appreciate the opinions and input added here. Just a quick glance gives one much to consider. :) Sadly my mortal body is displeased with the beating I gave it today, so I'm off to bed. :confused:
 
Could it not be that the demon theme is just another culturally based perception? No doubt it has its origins in medieval christianity, with its distinct and clearly defined ideals and perceptions of morality. And people seeing these creatures most often seem to be based within this religious concept.

For example the character Pan stemming from antiquity had many characteristics remeniscent of the christian devil, and was interpreted through the cultural filter of greek mythology. This could possibly show the fact that how we percieve the supernatural (for lack of a better word) is mainly based upon our cultural references.
 
The BBC report about avatar therapy is fascinating.

I used to have frequent debates with a friend who was of classic religious persuasion. He was a staunch believer in divine miracles. I posed to him the scenario: If your idealized perception of some kind of apocalyptic end-time occurred on earth one day, complete with trumpet-blowing angels, a cracking sky--you name it: How could you know it was divine and not something impeccably staged by technologically advanced beings to deceive us? He really hated that one.
 
I would seriously recommend talking to Amy Allen for a almost practical and non biased look into these matters. I think and stress think (IMO) she could possibly be the real thing. Yah yah I know God hates mediums blah blah. I am not saying to become or embrace anything, however this is a serious question that needs to be handled with great care. Good luck and remember we may never know the real answers, if there is one. Did your parents tell you everything growing up? I know mine didn't.

Thanks for the suggestion Wester71! I'll check her out. I have nothing against mediums. I think some are phony, but I believe there are people with the ability out there. And nope, mine did not. They never pretended to know everything, but didn't push anything beyond what's considered the norm (at least in the U.S.). I don't expect to fully understand anything, but I like to do my best to try and gather information and get a better perspective on what may be at the core of the subject.

If one is open to the idea that we exist in another form after we pass on, maybe that which we call demons are energies of people that were evil in real life only now they are empowered, unencumbered by their once human form.

This is a concept I have found the most logical, Spookymulder. I mean look at some of the horrible things people are capable of as living beings. Imagine if they shook off the yoke of being a breathing animal and gained the ability to move and act more freely. That's not to say that they don't deserve the title of demon, but I just feel like maybe it's a bit misleading when every negative paranormal incident is labeled demonic as it is defined by the Christian belief system (usually counteracted by an exorcism or some kind of religious ritual). And maybe some rituals have the power to stop or contain this type of activity, but I just think a better understanding of what it is might lead to better, more effective ways of coping with it.

There's living things that we can't see without a microscope. There's a growing body of evidence for "multiverse" type theories. Our floating ball of wet dirt isn't even a grain of sand on the beach of the universe. It doesn't seem unreasonable that there would be life forms that we don't fully understand at this point in time. If there's douchebag humans, I don't see why there can't be douchebags of other "intelligent" species.

Absolutely TalkingMeatSuit. I agree completely. I think it's very easy to get lost in our daily lives and forget just how miniscule we are when you look up and out.

Before I can comment, I would like a your definition of what constitutes a "demon".
Is it a red skinnned goat legged horn-spouting minion of hell? Are they mostly invisible and whisper subconscious suggestions in our ears?
Or do thay take a fully corporeal existence wreaking havok on peoples lives?
Are they just denizens of other dimensions? Or is there a religious side to them?
Or, are they just thoughtforms created by the religiously over-zealous?

I think that's part of what I'm trying to come to terms with as much as I can here, Exo_doc. I suppose if I was forced into a definition, I would probably go with the evil ghost/evil entity approach. Not necsesarily the traditional red skinned goat-legged, horned creature but something spirit in design that has bad intentions. I should also add the disclaimer that I fully admit that I do not know everything and my opinion is subject to change. :) As I grow wider, I fully expect my understanding of the world to evolve.

Tulpas, yes. Otherworldly entities that are destructive, yes. But arcane demons, not so much.

In my opinion, evil needs no outside source to make men into monsters.

BlackRockLobster, are you saying you don' believe in the Christian version of demon or that they do exist but aren't as powerful or significant as some believe them to be? And when you say "otherworldly" are we talking dimensional, spiritual (or a bit of both and more)?

Isn't it amazing how the older we get the more we tend to grow wiser? What we're talking about when it comes to demons are myths that manifest themselves in various beliefs and phenomena. Christopher's Trickster could be considered to be a particularly interesting brand of demon. The whole idea is wrapped up in concepts of morality, justice and the nature of existence. What might be considered an angel to one person would be considered a demon to another. Ultimately, in order to answer these questions one needs to focus on the concept of truth as a philosophical issue rather than as a religious principle. From there one can unravel the whole hierarchy of spiritual entities and put them into their proper place.

I think the world becomes a very different place as we age and see it under new light, Ufology. I also agree, I think an individual's background and belief system tends to apply titles, intentions, even backstory to this type of thing. Go to one culture and it's a demon, go to another and it's something completely different. Having lived in the U.S. my entire life, much of the influence here seems to be Christian, so that's a lot of what I hear and see in media when it comes to this type of thing.

The problem with the label of demon as it is usually applied by religious fundamentalists is that it seems aimed, like everything else in the fundamentalist's world view, at defining any and all phenomena in no other terms than within a particular religious or mythological world view. It's a kind of warning against active inquiry in lieu of accepting rote definition from higher social authority. No sensible thinker should have a problem with the concept of either human or non-human entities deserving the label "evil". But we have an obligation as thinking individuals to question the nature of whatever source of it we might encounter. Unless, of course, we find the natural consequences of doing so to be unacceptable. If I were to find a cause-and-effect relationship between investigating strange things and "evil" happenings, would I cease and desist? Most probably ! But I have not personally seen such a link. Perhaps others have.

Boomerang - I also think some people, having grown up with certain beliefs (primarily religious), are more comfortable utilizing those labels. And, in terms of living, non-living and "other" types of entities, I have no problem accepting that some may simply be out and out evil. Even without our dear Prince of Darkness jabbing them with a hot poker.

I do believe that there are entities which may have in the past been called demons or angels. I do think that science will eventually prove these entities to exist but in order to properly pursue of even acknowledge such things we need to strip them of their cultural baggage, its not going to help anyone by applying other peoples imaginative assertions and descriptions and control mechanisms. Saying that tho, it is important to understand and acknowledge peoples experiences in regards to the phenomena and not to overrule or mis/re-interpret peoples experiences but see them contextually.

If you would like a more recent and pertinent understanding of the cultural/human need to explore these considerations you should look at current treatment of schizophrenics with avatar therapy. BBC News - Avatars ease voices for schizophrenia patients

As always a modern era proves nothing but that, we pretty much were doing these things already but man has to recontextualise and place perception through whatever current paradigm is the norm; science, psychology and computer analogic modelling.
And so history repeats and loops , with different filters, the same lyrics the same notes, different instruments, the same tones and timbres.. echoes of past experiences reverberating through the corridors of time.


Thanks for the link, Nameless. And some excellent food for thought. Your last sentences remind me much of my views on the problems in the world today, another thing I have been having difficulty coming to terms with in my mind. But that's not relevant here. I think refusing to look beyond what we have been taught can really hold us back when trying to gain a better understanding of many things, including this topic.

I agree mostly with the linguistic and cultural considerations above. I don't believe in demons. On days when I feel more creative about consciousness I think there's a good chance that whatever is the unique spark that co-exists with this physical body, the one dressed in the memories and experiences of this body, that it could get recycled over and over again as it floats on down the samsara river. But as for hell and heaven (or the J. Witness cult's version of only 144,000 getting to stay in the immortality hotel), those things sound pretty absolutist and improbable up against a life defined by change. Demons don't seem to be about process at all, just a name that is a placeholder for what we call evil. It's also a fine, personified way to scare the crap out of kids. I remember being eternally fixated on the demon standing amidst all the real people in the illustations from Sunday School literature of the 70's. They always stood right beside the kids that lied, stole or cheated.
063-85612l.jpg

(I couldn't find one of those pics anywhere?!)

Still not too clear though on how our cultural narratives about evil connects to the schizophrenics feeling better (by learning to see their negative voices as externalized digital entities that could then allow for CBT to help play a role in diminishing the power of those voices). In this example it seems that the 'evil demon' lies within and be cast out through mindfulness practice and the realization that evil can be defeated through goodness. Oh...ok, never mind.

Burnt State - Those illustrations were distributed a little while before my time. I'm sure they are rather amusing to look at now. :p Is that an American Girl doll in a devil costume? EEEVILLLLLLL!! lol. You make some great points. Heaven and Hell seem like too much of a catch all. I believe the creation of such things was heavily influenced by a desire (by living, breathing men) to control and little else. Not to say I don't believe there aren't good and bad places you can end up at some point, I just don't think it's as neat and tidy as a Christian belief system makes it out to be. I won't speak for other belief systems because my experience is minimal at best (and I'm certainly no expert on Christianity, either), although I'm sure some share similar concepts.

Could it not be that the demon theme is just another culturally based perception? No doubt it has its origins in medieval christianity, with its distinct and clearly defined ideals and perceptions of morality. And people seeing these creatures most often seem to be based within this religious concept.

For example the character Pan stemming from antiquity had many characteristics remeniscent of the christian devil, and was interpreted through the cultural filter of greek mythology. This could possibly show the fact that how we percieve the supernatural (for lack of a better word) is mainly based upon our cultural references.

Yup, Pegusta. I definitely believe that some things change over time as they are borrowed by and/or passed along from culture to culture. Another reason I get a little miffed when some people claim something is strictly Christian when it has origins in earlier times and earlier cultures/religions.

I don't mean to sound like I'm picking on Christianity. It is just the most relevant here to me (and the one that I have the most personal experience dealing with in terms of learning about it and disagreeing with people who practice it in certain ways lol).
 
I think the world becomes a very different place as we age and see it under new light, Ufology. I also agree, I think an individual's background and belief system tends to apply titles, intentions, even backstory to this type of thing. Go to one culture and it's a demon, go to another and it's something completely different. Having lived in the U.S. my entire life, much of the influence here seems to be Christian, so that's a lot of what I hear and see in media when it comes to this type of thing.

Very impressive response to everyone Grif :) . I wonder though, do you think we're just dealing with concepts, or does this go beyond the intellectual into something more? Are there actual entities at work within this mythos?
 
Very impressive response to everyone Grif :) . I wonder though, do you think we're just dealing with concepts, or does this go beyond the intellectual into something more? Are there actual entities at work within this mythos?


Why thank you, Ufology. I felt it only fair to give everyone's post some thought and respond since everyone was kind enough to engage me in a conversation that might make some roll their eyes. :p I'm sure demons are a rather tired subject these days.

At this point, I think that there could be real entities, beings - whatever you want to call them - that fit the "demon" bill. I don't know that I think it's as widespread as some claim it to be. And I haven't been able to subscribe to the traditional Satan/God concept. I think there are many things out there, and possibly many that we don't understand or even know about yet. Just as human personalities can be diverse, I don't see why it would be a big leap to imagine that those entities could also display extreme diversity in their personalities. I don't think they are imagined concepts created by people (at least not all - again I do think sometimes it could be a matter of mental illness or other problems around or within those involved that are not paranormal in nature). I do believe some incidents are authentic and could very well be classified as evil. But again, perspective is very important.

If something decides to throw a plate across the room and break it, that would be pretty harrowing to the average person. And I think there are some who would jump to the conclusion that it's demonic, after all something was broken and it was scary. But couldn't it also be an obstinate child or child like spirit or maybe a frustrated entity trying to make a point? Maybe the old guy who used to live there and has since passed away wants the "squatters" out of his domain. Or it could be an entity that never wore flesh, getting its kicks messing with the ignorant animals that live on a plane it can access. And there's also the possibility that some kind of extreme emotion managed to manifest itself.

There may not be pure evil behind the intent, but it feels that way. Human being can get pretty twisted and dark as well, and when the burden of maintaining a living, breathing body has been shed, maybe they can grow even darker and more twisted and become something that truly could be named a demon.

And if you don't want to read all that, here's the short answer: Yes, I believe this is more than a concept and that there are entities out there that can be pretty bad mofos. I just strongly question the generally accepted explanations for their origins, purpose, etc.
 
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