Do you believe in god??

[TClaeys]

A few things to sort of define god as best as I can. I'm not asking if you believe in Jesus and the Christian God, but I suppose that would be a yes in this poll. It doesn't even have to be any personal god that is somehow involved in your life, or anyones life for that matter. You don't have to believe in any type of afterlife either, although that would make it much more interesting. This could be some type of cosmic seeder, a personal god, or whatever. You may not even know what you believe, but your gut tells you something had to be involved.

We are told that the universe just happened. There was nothing, and then there was something. And this seems to be what we observe, or at least when we try to rewind things, this is how it appears. So we go from nothing (absolutely a void) to this circus act we call life.

We are told that this stuff just naturally happened. Although nature didn't even exist before it happened. Then apparently life formed from non-living matter. And it evolved, etc, etc. This was after all the known elements were formed from the one element Hydrogen. We happen to be caught in this perfect gravitational tug of war of being crunched back in and delicately expanding to resist the crunch.

What my question boils down to is this:
Do you believe in some intelligent agent that was somehow responsible for the creation of the universe??

I certainly don't base my views on any religion. In fact, I think the dogma is ridiculous. I base my views on the unknowns. This is perilously close to a "God of the Gaps" argument. And while we will surely discover more, I don't know that we will really understand how the universe came to be. And perhaps the more we discover, the more it might point towards a creator.

I don't know that this has been asked before or not and thought it would be a good question. Thanks for comments and participation. There is no MAYBE as an option. You may teeter from believing or not like I do, but MAYBE doesn't answer the question. Don't worry, you won't go to hell. ...... I don't think.

 

[Aaron LeClair]

Hope you don't mind me adding two choices. Many here deserve more credit because they've actually given more thought to the matters than those who are prone to belief, gut work, or faith. Belief often connates (spell checker is telling me I'm wrong on dat wurd) one's level of conviction toward a particular conclusion in the face of absence of evidence. Some may argue there is evidence for, or against intelligent design.

Guess we need to trash the word belief in exchange for, "are you convinced, or lean toward? whatever".

 

[mike]

No i dont,
i consider it possible, likely even that intellect may evolve beyond the bioform. synthetic intellect etc.
and that one or more of these entities may have had a hand in "US" and even life itself on earth and elsewhere. but then again it might not. we might just be the result of panspermia like everyother life form, completely random with no concious directives involved.

but abrahams god ? no.

if god exists...thats his problem

 

[Aaron LeClair]

No i dont,
i consider it possible, likely even that intellect may evolve beyond the bioform. synthetic intellect etc.
and that one or more of these entities may have had a hand in "US" and even life itself on earth and elsewhere. but then again it might not. we might just be the result of panspermia like everyother life form, completely random with no concious directives involved.

but abrahams god ? no.

if god exists...thats his problem

I think he's asking if there is intelligence behind creation, not if you believe in the Santa Claus with a chip on his shoulder god. The title asks about God, the polls asks about intelligence. This will probably lead to rather ambiguous results.

 

[Rocketsauce]

I definitely believe in God, I am a bit of a mystic and believe God is in everything etc.....

I think one of the hardest things for people to reconcile is how God could exist yet bad things happen to good people (Holocaust theology etc...)

My personal belief is that for a large part we have free will (minus divine intervention/paranormal stuff etc...) and free will is part of the learning process in the long run even if you are at the losing end in the short run.

It would be great if cutting edge physics down the road could help shed some light on the real nature of how the universe works, which could give us further clues into the nature of the ultimate.

 

[Gareth]

The more I think about it the more I think that the most probable explanation for us humans is that a non-human intelligent species tinkered with some primate genes.

Beyond that, yeah I believe in some sort of ultimate intelligence but have no idea or theories on who or what that is.

 

[TClaeys]

I think he's asking if there is intelligence behind creation, not if you believe in the Santa Claus with a chip on his shoulder god. The title asks about God, the polls asks about intelligence. This will probably lead to rather ambiguous results.

Yes, sorry not to be clear on that. I guess I think of god=intelligence, same thing so to speak. Should have titled the post "do you believe in an intelligent creator". I'm not even of the mind that there is some god/intelligence that has somehow looked out for us vain humans.

If there is some creator, it certainly existed outside the realm of our short history. This is the thing about religion. It seems to want to emphasize the importance and role of us. As if everything is about us and what we mean. However life and humans came to be is quite extraordinary regardless of the mechanism. But believing (or leaning towards) god doesn't neccessarily put any emphasis on humans per se just because we are able to think, ponder, and wonder about the nature of such things. That is, I suppose, if you don't believe in some sort of personal god who is in touch with your life somehow.

In my view this question isn't about a human creator or even a life creator, but about the big picture. The birth of the cosmos. Is there something intelligent that started the ball rolling??

 

[skunkape]

I don't even believe in what I percieve as myself entirely.

 

[TClaeys]

BTW, whoever changed the poll choices. (Aaron??)

Thats fine, I see what you are saying. "Belief" has certain connotations with it, especially on this show. It means to hold an opinion of, or to accept as true, or to have a firm conviction. It also means to hold a religious view or accept the evidence.

I sometimes use this word in lieu of "think". Would it be better if the poll said "think" instead of "believe"??

 

[skunkape]

"...I'm slightly offended that the concept of "Stupid Design" is not being discussed side-by-side with "intelligent design"...I think that the idea of the Universal Architecht being "intelligent" is a very "sciencecentric" concept...what some humans call "gawd" could be some retarded child..."


Feel free to discuss it then.

""sciencecentric"" Good word. I'm one of those people. We eat baby toes every wed. We a cult. Yep.

"what some humans call "gawd" could be some retarded child..."

So you proved semantics exists. Way to go. 2 plus two equals 4? Right?

 

[Aaron LeClair]

BTW, whoever changed the poll choices. (Aaron??)

Thats fine, I see what you are saying. "Belief" has certain connotations with it, especially on this show. It means to hold an opinion of, or to accept as true, or to have a firm conviction. It also means to hold a religious view or accept the evidence.

I sometimes use this word in lieu of "think". Would it be better if the poll said "think" instead of "believe"??

I made two changes at once. I added two options and said so before. Very few polls make it past editing here these days.

If you mean votes, I made no changes to that. I added the last two options.

 

[CapnG]

The catagories are too narrow for me. I style myself as an "agnostic deist". I'm not 100% sure that god exists but I'm convinced that if he/she/it/they does/do then it's fairly obvious that we are not his/her/it's/their primary concern. As Yakko Warner so eloquently put it "It's a great big universe and we're all really puny, just a bunch of little specks about the size of Mickey Rooney..."

I AM 100% sure however that all religions are false, flawed and wholly manufactured by humans to control other humans.

 

[TClaeys]

...I'm slightly offended that the concept of "Stupid Design" is not being discussed side-by-side with "intelligent design"...I think that the idea of the Universal Architecht being "intelligent" is a very "sciencecentric" concept...what some humans call "gawd" could be some retarded child...

Skunkape,

Semantics are killing this discussion. But I wholeheartedly agree with your position and I've often wondered the same thing myself. Perhaps it isn't intelligent in that the best choices are always made in our human-centric eyes, but that choices or origins are made with intent whether good, bad, smart, stupid, peaceful, or evil. So, point well taken.

 

[TClaeys]

The catagories are too narrow for me. I style myself as an "agnostic deist". I'm not 100% sure that god exists but I'm convinced that if he/she/it/they does/do then it's fairly obvious that we are not his/her/it's/their primary concern. As Yakko Warner so eloquently put it "It's a great big universe and we're all really puny, just a bunch of little specks about the size of Mickey Rooney..."

I AM 100% sure however that all religions are false, flawed and wholly manufactured by humans to control other humans.

Capn,

What other categories would you include??

Again, I'm not talking about human creation or really anything about humans, but the creation of the universe. Whatever happens beyond that is, well, human centric thinking. We like to think we are somehow special and I don't know that this is the case. Could be, but probably not considering the scope of things. This may be a big blow to our ego, but so be it. We are a grain of sand in the midst of all the beaches of the world. And this is supposed to be about us??

 

[Drew UK]

Without any doubt, there is intelligent design at work - the intricacies of the natural world and chemical interactions that take place baffle even our most intelligent proffesionals - we have only just begun to understand the intelligent processes that are acting every second in the molecular level.

The vastness of the earth as an ecosystem to the microscopic influenza virus to somehow "know how?" to use a carrier, to get transported, to be picked up by its host, to replicate and to spread further and yet still manages to evade treatment by the most intelligent scientists in the world cannot be caused by chance.

Does anybody know what the odds of creation are?

Who are these people that can say a lump of Carbon,Hydrogen, Oxygen, Nitrogen and a bit of Sulfur can somehow get up and get going after millions of years stirring need to focus more on the easier task of converting lead into gold.

I think in the past, philosophy and theology has ascribed that this intelligence is external (from beyond our natural condition) and has created the "god" idea as being an omnipotent existance from beyond
- but I prefer the concept of an internal "god" idea - that each subatomic particle has within it a certain intelligence and connectivity with every other subatomic particle that knowledge can be created -and evolution can occur - through CAUSATION not through chance!!

So on that basis, I think "(cognito ergo sum)" god exists.
But on this idea - free will can merely be an illusion. Which I also agree with - When was the last time you used your free will, who decided - was it you or you? I think the subconscious plays more of a vital role in controlling what we do.

Now, comes the politics. On Ecclesiastical Principles:

 

[exo_doc]

There's not enough room here for a proper discussion on this subject.
I could tell you the logical reasoning aspect and it seems to be a purely mechanical universe, or I could tell you all the human condition experience that makes it feel, sometimes at leat, like there is some greater intelligence.

But there is a middle ground where I'd love to have my questions to God actually verbally answered, assuming for the moment there is a God (and really hopefully not some old guy in a robe and sandals with a big beard).
Such as...If you're God, why hide? You afraid of us? Like Frankenstein scared shitless of the monster he created?
If you're so concerned with saving us, as some religions want us to beleive, why not appear before everyone and erase all doubt? ............ And about a billion other questions.

What would your questions be?

 

[Drew UK]

ON ECCLESIASTICAL PRINCIPLES:

Religion has been utilised throughout the history of mankind as a tool of control. From my own religion (roman catholicism) the nature of its beginnings eminated from the collapse of roman empire itself and borrowing the judeo idea of the monotheistic entity replacing the polytheistic idea of Roman/Greek gods which was prevalent in the past.

The Roman ruler Constantine an agnostic himself (prefering the idea of a sun god) and presiding over the break up of the roman empire utilised this new religion to try to stabilise the empire (Christianity was gaining huge momentum in the central empire - and Rome did not have enough lions to subdue it), with breakaway states moving back to druidism/pagan/alternative ideas - but nevertheless the Christianity that was fermenting in a chaotic environment was an opportunity he could not resist.

Consequently, Constantine precipitated his version on Christianity on the world - The Holy Bible, and edited it such to allow mild adversaries to Rome political inclusion to allow varied pagan celebrations to be recognised - hence why there continues to be a close relationship with christian holidays with the existing pagan festivals.
Also in true Machiavellian character, he incorporated into christianity the demonisation of transgressors.

Ever wondered why the devils got horns on its head? Because the Nordic (vikings) which were a threat to Rome believed in deities of Venus (which travels across the night sky in the shape of two horns). As symbolised by the traditional Viking head gear.

May I also add - the only book not to have been manipulated by Constantine was "Revelations"

So, all Roman Catholics are routed to political teachings of Constantine and all other religions have imitated and evolved on a similar path.

Despite this awareness I continue to be an active Roman Catholic, since this comes from answering the next question -
If we debunk religions, theories of "god" and ecclesiastical principles - what do we put in it's place?

 

[Drew UK]

ON ECCLESIASTICAL PRINCIPLES:

It is true, religion has and continues to be seized by political aspirations to commit violence and do bad in the world.
However, we often neglect its attributes of doing good.

Religion is behind the current legal system in nations - the 10 commandments have mutated into 10's of billions.
But who questions them and are they correct?

If science was ever given the role of judgement - I, a human species, an animal has the mitigated right to kill, murder, rape, steel, torture whosoever and whenever I wish - to satisfy my human animal demands.

So, in order for law (judgement) to be exercised your decisions must meet with approval to a "higher being" in which you have spiritual linkage and will consent to. Without this we are reduced to the nature of animals.

I am not suprised in the escalation of domestic crime occuring in this mordern contemporary world - since we have lost touch with this basic principle.

In advancement of this, take a visit to your prison and talk to the criminals themselves - its about being "hard" - and the function of "hardness" is to serve NO MAN. However, they will give in to god.

So here is the caveat when we loose our religious principles - we loose our civilisation.
I for one, prefer the leadership of a hidden yet powerful entity (imaginary or not) that we can put on top of human heirachy to make judgement than replacing it with the leadership of man - which, to make it effective will orbit around one central theme - FEAR.

I pray that this does not come to pass
Amen.

 

[David Biedny]

I believe...

in Beatles.

dB

 

[CapnG]

Capn,

What other categories would you include??

Given the way the question has been rephrased, "agnostic" would be a minimum addition.

For my own viewpoint, I see the universe as sort of running on "auto-pilot", perhaps created by an intelligent agent but not so micro-managed as Biblical literalists would have it. That things are basically out of control and random and that god (if he/she/it/they even exist/s) is simply sitting back and taking notes.

Now, how to phrase all that in the form of a question? I'm not sure. The real question is how in-depth do you want this discussion to become?