Aaron LeClair
Paranormal Maven
I'm tempted to put up, "I believe in Sereda's dog".
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Do you believe in god??
- Thread starter TClaeys
- Start date
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I tend toward agnosticism. In my belief system, paranormal IS normal. From that perspective, there is so much that we, as humans, cannot explain and do not know. We've only been in existence as a species for a short time and we certainly have limited intellectual capabilities, physical constraints and our sensory inputs and outputs are known to be faulty. We're highly social and emotional creatures and the combination of the social, emotional, intellectual and physical aspects of our being makes us often dangerous to ourselves and others. Seems to me that if not for some creative energy outside of us interceding in some way and with some support, we should be long gone by now. Now, I'm not discounting dumb luck, chance and stupidity, but it seems that another "Hand" is at work here.
Cosmic Ejaculator 1814
~Trout Mask Replica~
Drew UK
.
I need to emphasize a few points, to detach from lennonist romanticism -
Religion does not cause/is not the root behind wars/violence out there it's just a vector that can be used to support it.
The troubles in Northern Ireland are not caused by people arguing over there interpretation of whether the trinity should be acknowledged or not - but about the land and rights of one people over another (distinguished by religion).
Heres a little interesting exercise - read the following statement...
The crusades began in the 12th-13th centuries the Christian countries goal was to capture the Holy land from the Muslims and Christianise it. To take it from the savage nature of the muslims who's actions were primitive and highly un-christian - in which it has been preffered by the leaders of the christian religion to convert the muslim savages into good christians.
Now, lets take the religion out of this and bring this up to date.
Remove 12th-13th to 20th-21st centuries.
Take out christian/christianise - put in democractic/democratise.
Take out muslim - put in Arab.
Sound familar?
So you see, religion is independent from war really - actually, war is the conflict of ideas - which John Lennon had plenty.
Be careful what you wish for.
Religion does not cause/is not the root behind wars/violence out there it's just a vector that can be used to support it.
The troubles in Northern Ireland are not caused by people arguing over there interpretation of whether the trinity should be acknowledged or not - but about the land and rights of one people over another (distinguished by religion).
Heres a little interesting exercise - read the following statement...
The crusades began in the 12th-13th centuries the Christian countries goal was to capture the Holy land from the Muslims and Christianise it. To take it from the savage nature of the muslims who's actions were primitive and highly un-christian - in which it has been preffered by the leaders of the christian religion to convert the muslim savages into good christians.
Now, lets take the religion out of this and bring this up to date.
Remove 12th-13th to 20th-21st centuries.
Take out christian/christianise - put in democractic/democratise.
Take out muslim - put in Arab.
Sound familar?
So you see, religion is independent from war really - actually, war is the conflict of ideas - which John Lennon had plenty.
Be careful what you wish for.
Aaron LeClair
Paranormal Maven
Beliefs, often stupid ones, fuel war. One nation believes it's right and another wrong. This is often dogmatic. So we have arrogant and often stupid belief. What better definition for religion? Ok, politics work as well. So where religion fails to rear it's head, politics, it's very incestual cousin, does instead.
No it isn't.
What you are saying is that to have an opinion is stupid.
Now I would agree that by hearing what someone says and automatically believing it, would be non-thinking and stupid. But to look at available knowledge and come up with an opinion is not stupid. Believing can require reasoning. Beidney has poisoned the word so that it means "non-thinking, wishful, unreasonable, religious faith", but that is not correct. Look it up.
I believe that Beidney is telling the truth about his stories. I guess that would be a stupid remark right??
Drew UK
.
No, I still think this viewpoint is half baked.
I have been at football matches where huge crowds have ignited altercations between one another - not because of religion (the religions are mixed), not because of a political reaction (sport) but because simply there are two groups which wear different coloured t-shirts (CULTURE/IDENTITY).
And to reinforce my argument, War has existed in human affairs long before organised religion and politics emerged.
"War is the expression of politics by other means"... Von Klauzewitz, On War
"War is the expression of culture and identity by other means" ... I am going to say that.
I was not very old when I was in Liverpool during the 1980's but I did know something quite tremendous was happening and also quite frightening.
Immagine.
Kieran
Paranormal Adept
I believe in God as a concept. I no we were created by "something" however how we were created is probably beyond human realisation.I am catholic but i never go to mass or go to usual catholic ceremonies. But i must admit my daughter did have baptism. In a lot of ways that can make me a hypocrite and i fully understand that.
I think religion could have been a evil that the world could have done withount , why do i say that.Look at the history of the world "conflicts and wars fought so to see which theory of god is better than the other. No group is beyond blame.
So many evil things done in gods name. I think if there is a god out there somewhere and that god allowed all the evils in the world to be carried out it aint a god i want to meet when i die. That is of course if i do end up in heaven.
Heaven to me only means one thing and i have always felt it from a very young age "space".Of course the catholic church doesnt believe heaven is in "space" they have there own theory a "Spiritual place". I dont disagree with the spiritual place theory. I just believe god or whatever our creator was came from outside our solar system. I have no evidence or anything to back up my claims. it is just feeling and feelings are valuable to me.
The whole faith thing is a problem in my eyes. People believe in jesus and i do believe myself that jesus is a true character. In saying that however i believe the name jesus christ was probably a name made up so to represent a person who actually did exist at that time.
Jesus i believe was a man. I think logic would bring anyone to that conclusion. There is so many reasons for me to say that. But it would take too long to go into in any real depth.
Religions came about during a time of great turbulence in our history more or less around a three thousand year old period .It seems kind of funny to me we look to this time in our history as the great awakening.
Jesus was a man and he will not be comeing back. People have to get this nonsence out of there heads. It is easier siad then done however.
I think religion could have been a evil that the world could have done withount , why do i say that.Look at the history of the world "conflicts and wars fought so to see which theory of god is better than the other. No group is beyond blame.
So many evil things done in gods name. I think if there is a god out there somewhere and that god allowed all the evils in the world to be carried out it aint a god i want to meet when i die. That is of course if i do end up in heaven.
Heaven to me only means one thing and i have always felt it from a very young age "space".Of course the catholic church doesnt believe heaven is in "space" they have there own theory a "Spiritual place". I dont disagree with the spiritual place theory. I just believe god or whatever our creator was came from outside our solar system. I have no evidence or anything to back up my claims. it is just feeling and feelings are valuable to me.
The whole faith thing is a problem in my eyes. People believe in jesus and i do believe myself that jesus is a true character. In saying that however i believe the name jesus christ was probably a name made up so to represent a person who actually did exist at that time.
Jesus i believe was a man. I think logic would bring anyone to that conclusion. There is so many reasons for me to say that. But it would take too long to go into in any real depth.
Religions came about during a time of great turbulence in our history more or less around a three thousand year old period .It seems kind of funny to me we look to this time in our history as the great awakening.
Jesus was a man and he will not be comeing back. People have to get this nonsence out of there heads. It is easier siad then done however.
War predates religion, its the primary "lever"
right or wrong have nothing to do with it, its simply the application of the lowest lever , "the ability to do so"
and the application can be seen in the waterhole scene from 2001 a Space Odyssey thru to the current stockpiles of nuclear bombs.
the reality always has been if all else fails, just use brute force to get what you want.
religion on the other hand is indeed like politics its a way of controling the masses. and like the species whos construct it is , you can see good and bad in it, but it is a form of brainwashing.
and i think its on its way out.
for tens of thousands of years if an ET species were to contact man he would have called them "gods" and mentally if not physically fallen to the ground and begun moaning.
today such an event would be seen for the reality it is, we have the technology to see billions of light years accross the universe
today and for the most part we would embrace such an event with scientific awe, not superstitious ignorance.
right or wrong have nothing to do with it, its simply the application of the lowest lever , "the ability to do so"
and the application can be seen in the waterhole scene from 2001 a Space Odyssey thru to the current stockpiles of nuclear bombs.
the reality always has been if all else fails, just use brute force to get what you want.
religion on the other hand is indeed like politics its a way of controling the masses. and like the species whos construct it is , you can see good and bad in it, but it is a form of brainwashing.
and i think its on its way out.
for tens of thousands of years if an ET species were to contact man he would have called them "gods" and mentally if not physically fallen to the ground and begun moaning.
today such an event would be seen for the reality it is, we have the technology to see billions of light years accross the universe
today and for the most part we would embrace such an event with scientific awe, not superstitious ignorance.
War predates religion, its the primary "lever"
right or wrong have nothing to do with it, its simply the application of the lowest lever , "the ability to do so"
and the application can be seen in the waterhole scene from 2001 a Space Odyssey thru to the current stockpiles of nuclear bombs.
the reality always has been if all else fails, just use brute force to get what you want.
religion on the other hand is indeed like politics its a way of controling the masses. and like the species whos construct it is , you can see good and bad in it, but it is a form of brainwashing.
and i think its on its way out.
for tens of thousands of years if an ET species were to contact man he would have called them "gods" and mentally if not physically fallen to the ground and begun moaning.
today such an event would be seen for the reality it is, we have the technology to see billions of light years accross the universe
today and for the most part we would embrace such an event with scientific awe, not superstitious ignorance.
right or wrong have nothing to do with it, its simply the application of the lowest lever , "the ability to do so"
and the application can be seen in the waterhole scene from 2001 a Space Odyssey thru to the current stockpiles of nuclear bombs.
the reality always has been if all else fails, just use brute force to get what you want.
religion on the other hand is indeed like politics its a way of controling the masses. and like the species whos construct it is , you can see good and bad in it, but it is a form of brainwashing.
and i think its on its way out.
for tens of thousands of years if an ET species were to contact man he would have called them "gods" and mentally if not physically fallen to the ground and begun moaning.
today such an event would be seen for the reality it is, we have the technology to see billions of light years accross the universe
today and for the most part we would embrace such an event with scientific awe, not superstitious ignorance.
Live at the Witch Trials
Skilled Investigator
Religion is not always about controlling the masses. It is in some instances but not all. Look at Buddhism for instance.
Also look at the Native American Indians and the Australian Aborigines their Religion wasn't all about control.
I find it to be Intellectual Laziness when people will state that all religion is about is control.
Primarily Religion is or was about Mankind's inability to answer certain questions.
If you read " Thus sprake Zarathustra " by Nietzsche (19th century Existentialist writer ) he says God is Dead because we dont need him anymore IE we can answer most questions. ECO HOMO (behold the Man )
There is something within us that needs a Religion maybe a gene or part of the Brain. Its when societies become affluent and the Organizational aspect kicks in that the Controlling aspect Kicks in.
Also look at the Native American Indians and the Australian Aborigines their Religion wasn't all about control.
I find it to be Intellectual Laziness when people will state that all religion is about is control.
Primarily Religion is or was about Mankind's inability to answer certain questions.
If you read " Thus sprake Zarathustra " by Nietzsche (19th century Existentialist writer ) he says God is Dead because we dont need him anymore IE we can answer most questions. ECO HOMO (behold the Man )
There is something within us that needs a Religion maybe a gene or part of the Brain. Its when societies become affluent and the Organizational aspect kicks in that the Controlling aspect Kicks in.
CapnG
Devil's Advocate
Quite literally, it's refered to as the "god center". Religious types claim it is the signature that proves the existence of god. Rationalists claim it is the source of all religious experiences and thus the proof that god (and all other spiritual/suprenatural ideas or experiences) is illusiary and wholly manufactured within the brain.
And 'round and 'round we go...
Drew UK
.
The previous posts have raised a few interesting points that I want to address.
Live at the Witch Trials:
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OK - Let's use a bit of intellectual hardwork (bearing in mind, I am not trying to erode any religion in so doing). All idea's are mechanism to control the masses - and the effectiveness is obviously determined by the level of popularity.
Examining Buddhism - it TEACHES that people should be altruistic, understand gain knowledge and have a strong sense of integrity and worship does involve bowing,chanting and offerings - a significant alteration of what people would do naturally (CONTROL).
Moving on to the American Inidans - in which we move into Animism, whereby everything has a spirit (including rocks!!) and that every object must be respected for fear of releasing that spirit and it will inflict its Ju Ju upon you - worship (prior to Jack Daniels) would include fasting and dehydrating for long periods to put you near the hallucinated state - again a significant alteration of what people would do naturally (i.e. INFLUENCE - or CONTROL).
Perhaps I have taken your response out of context - that if you are saying that religion is solely based on control - then I agree with this, but what I am saying is that religion is significantly based on control.
The next problem that I have is
I think the other points were spot on Mike but -
Well, I'll hesitate on this - I think there are more religions being created than ever and what I think's going on especially in the western world is similar to what was happening after the fall of the roman empire - see my previous post to Constantine.
That instead of one mainstream massive organisation we are moving towards fractious religions/cults etc - and there is an imbalance being created in the world as the west christianity atomises and the east unites under islam - which is certainly not on it's way out.
This will create political problems for the future (I think Constantine understood this). Since the united tend to desire and procure more victories than the divided - we need to pay serious attention to this.
I will assert that in order to strive for a peaceful (virtued) outcome -equalisation of balance is essential here. And bearing no animosity to my fellow Islam brothers - since my analysis is not based on culture/race or religion but solely on the nature and history of man - if we retain pacifism on this issue then we may be facing a situation similar to the Genghis Khan era.
History goes in zig zags not in a straight line.
Live at the Witch Trials:
<HR style="COLOR: #d1d1e1; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #d1d1e1" SIZE=1>
OK - Let's use a bit of intellectual hardwork (bearing in mind, I am not trying to erode any religion in so doing). All idea's are mechanism to control the masses - and the effectiveness is obviously determined by the level of popularity.
Examining Buddhism - it TEACHES that people should be altruistic, understand gain knowledge and have a strong sense of integrity and worship does involve bowing,chanting and offerings - a significant alteration of what people would do naturally (CONTROL).
Moving on to the American Inidans - in which we move into Animism, whereby everything has a spirit (including rocks!!) and that every object must be respected for fear of releasing that spirit and it will inflict its Ju Ju upon you - worship (prior to Jack Daniels) would include fasting and dehydrating for long periods to put you near the hallucinated state - again a significant alteration of what people would do naturally (i.e. INFLUENCE - or CONTROL).
Perhaps I have taken your response out of context - that if you are saying that religion is solely based on control - then I agree with this, but what I am saying is that religion is significantly based on control.
The next problem that I have is
I think the other points were spot on Mike but -
Well, I'll hesitate on this - I think there are more religions being created than ever and what I think's going on especially in the western world is similar to what was happening after the fall of the roman empire - see my previous post to Constantine.
That instead of one mainstream massive organisation we are moving towards fractious religions/cults etc - and there is an imbalance being created in the world as the west christianity atomises and the east unites under islam - which is certainly not on it's way out.
This will create political problems for the future (I think Constantine understood this). Since the united tend to desire and procure more victories than the divided - we need to pay serious attention to this.
I will assert that in order to strive for a peaceful (virtued) outcome -equalisation of balance is essential here. And bearing no animosity to my fellow Islam brothers - since my analysis is not based on culture/race or religion but solely on the nature and history of man - if we retain pacifism on this issue then we may be facing a situation similar to the Genghis Khan era.
History goes in zig zags not in a straight line.
Graphimancer
Skilled Investigator
The options posted in the question are insufficient.
Specify.
Graphimancer
Skilled Investigator
Well, I'm not sure how to boil it down. I believe this universe is itself God, and that the universe is self-aware and self-regulating. This self awareness interracts through bits of itself; if effect, we are all individualized "avatars" of the Divine will, acting out and unaware of our origins and eventual return to the Godhead. Self-awareness, at almost any level, is a sort of divine attribute.
So, "Yes" seems insufficient, and "I don't believe, but I reason there is intelligence behind creation" is close too.
I have issues with the word "believe" as well. Does a long held and reasoned hypotheosis that I place weight on count as "belief"? And, does "knowing" trump belief?
I stated my view above not so everyone can take a stab at them, but because it is germain to answering this question. I'm at a point in my life where I'm willing to entertain some pretty extravagant thought experiments and concepts, mostly in an academic sense, but I don't really feel the need for late night debate sessions over my personal beliefs.
So, "Yes" seems insufficient, and "I don't believe, but I reason there is intelligence behind creation" is close too.
I have issues with the word "believe" as well. Does a long held and reasoned hypotheosis that I place weight on count as "belief"? And, does "knowing" trump belief?
I stated my view above not so everyone can take a stab at them, but because it is germain to answering this question. I'm at a point in my life where I'm willing to entertain some pretty extravagant thought experiments and concepts, mostly in an academic sense, but I don't really feel the need for late night debate sessions over my personal beliefs.
Chuckleberryfinn
Paranormal Maven
cmbezln
Skilled Investigator
david seeing a UFO, telling the story and believing the story is much more different than believing in a magical creator of the universe.....nobody has seen him, nobody has heard him (in their right mind), etc etc
if you believe that, then i believe in the destructor of the universe.....i giant black pac-man at the other end of the tube devouring all that your creator has created
and i have just as much justification as you would.
Live at the Witch Trials
Skilled Investigator
By your yardstick everything that Human beings do that isn't a natural act is a form of Control such as the brushing of Teeth or the washing of hands after a visit to the Toilet.
There is more than one Definition of Control if you want to get bogged down in legalese but I was referring to Control as it is applied by most Organized Religions and at that in a most general sense.
Also why does the belief that Rocks can contain spirits warrant exclamation marks ? If you could fully understand the Concept of Animism (not that I'm an Animist ) you would understand that Respect for the whole Earth is its core Ideology and thus the Concept of Rocks having Souls easily understandable and very Deep in matters of spirituality too !
I can fully understand Human Beings thinking in this way.
I fail to see any controlling aspects at play regarding the Religions of the Indigenous American peoples.
You point out that they Fasted and dehydrated themselves which is what they indeed did but where they forced to do this by Shaman ? Was there an organized structure in place and if there was how did it work ? (I must admit that my Knowledge on the subject of Indigenous American peoples somewhat Lacking of late.)
They did this for the "Religious Experience" to have Visions etc and to be Closer to their God.
In Essence All Religions have certain Rituals these Rituals are for the most part basically Telling whatever God or Gods that He or they are Believed in.
Here I find that your application of the word Control to be far too over reaching because what is the point of believing in a God or Gods if you wont tell him or they that you do so.
Are there any known Religions on the Planet that do not have Rituals in one way or another ?
Ulitmately what I am asking is, is Ritual Really a form of Control ?
Is a group of Human beings externaly identifying with each other a form of Control ?