PararealitySaint
An Open Minded Skeptic
Woops....spoke to soon again. More was added to my reply to Angelo.....LOL!
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Does the Phenomenon deserve study
- Thread starter Ron Collins
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Woops....spoke to soon again. More was added to my reply to Angelo.....LOL!
Nothing you added detracts from the reality of the statement i made.
On the contrary, it reinforces it
tyder001
Paranormal Adept
First off just because you don't "beleive" that somebody actually saw something does not mean you think they are a dolt or a liar or stupid. It just means you don't think they saw what they think they saw. My own mother Swears that my late Uncle came to her on a lonely country road in a car one night. Ya know what? I don't think my mother is a lier or a dolt or stupid. But, I don't believe my uncle came to her in that car either. Yet, I do believe her to be an honest person. So, that is not a very good anaology or even fair to hit Angel or any other skeptic with. As for faith. Yes, I do have my own faith. I find it snarky and even mean spirited to attack somebody and deride a faith that has and is a comfort to somebody. Ya know what kiddies? NOBODY knows what happens at death. Nobody knows if the u.f.o's are from off planet or another dimension or time traveling scientist from our own future or a compete myth or a military project. However, the beleif in God or the paranormal or even U.F.O's is a very convoluted and personal process. There is just NO, I am so sorry guys NO scientific test tube type eveidence that we are being visited from another world. There is however circumstancial evidence from witness testimony that we may indeed be. Especially since it spans centuries. I honestly don't think we are simply a brain fart and a by product of evolution. I think we are a very important part of the equation of life. But, I have no Scientific Proof for that and don't really know that there will ever be any. But, lets stop yelling and belittling each other shall we? My final question is to Trajanus. Dude, I am not being a smart aleck here but I have noticed your posting on this subject is much more passionate than an objetive observer. Are you a Ralian? Not being snarky it's just something I've wondered about.
Peace. 8)
Angel of Ioren
Friendly Skeptic
Thanks Tyder.
That's the thing. Am I not allowed to say something is unexplained? I prefer to wait for solid proof before I believe something as incredible as alien visitation. People are unreliable, but I have always maintained, like Tyder, that most witnesses are not lying about what they have seen. It doesn't mean that they are correct in their assessment.
trainedobserver
Paranormally Disenchanted
Not all of it perhaps but to say that some if not a great deal of it could be explained by that is not unreasonable. In fact there is a great deal of evidence that the mask of the UFO phenomenon has been put on many such projects, most notably the U2 and other spy planes.
The term UFO phenomenon is wide and deep and we should be cautious to think that any one explanation will fit the bill.
.
PararealitySaint
An Open Minded Skeptic
"Fantasies will come true, they will happen to you...if you're young at heart."
Don't worry, someday you will get there.
Trajanus
Paranormal Adept
Maybe but two points: Basically the government seeks to debunk UFOs and even in cases where they may have used it as a mask, they didn't get the idea from nothing.
I don't doubt that misidentifications, hoaxes etc account for some of it. But there is a basic, unearthly reality behind it or at least ample evidence for that. Furthermore, the ETH has the potential to explain all (real) aspects, whereas other hypotheses don't. You can't attribute it all to hoaxes or psychological issues. In contrast, aliens can account for weird images (holograms?), abduction reports, mutilations, landing marks.... The fact that all aspects of the phenomenon increased more or less simultaneously i.e. after WWII, suggests a single basic cause. That, coupled with the explanatory power of the ETH, and parsimony, makes it the best hypothesis by far.
---------- Post added at 03:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:16 PM ----------
There is already "solid" or physical evidence, which together with witness reports, provides an adequate basis for belief. Based on rather limited evidence 40 years ago, most scientists believed T. rex was a predator long before new discoveries provided "solid proof."
I don't think it's so incredible. We've begun exploring other worlds, and know ours is far from the only or oldest star system. According to the fermi paradox, alien visitation is so likely the "absence" of aliens can be taken as evidence they don't exist.
Angel of Ioren
Friendly Skeptic
Who said I think that they don't exist? I just don't think they are visiting us. With regards to the T-Rex - we have fossils.
Trajanus
Paranormal Adept
Of course; that's what I was addressing above.
Sure, including teeth which indicate carnivory but not necessarily by themselves, a predacious lifestyle. That was only proven conclusively with recent evidence.
Angel of Ioren
Friendly Skeptic
Yup, and that's what science is all about. Proving things as evidence comes up.
stphrz
Stuffed Tiger
Please give one, just one, example of an experiment that could possibly be devised/conducted using the ETH as a basis.Maybe but two points: Basically the government seeks to debunk UFOs and even in cases where they may have used it as a mask, they didn't get the idea from nothing.
I don't doubt that misidentifications, hoaxes etc account for some of it. But there is a basic, unearthly reality behind it or at least ample evidence for that. Furthermore, the ETH has the potential to explain all (real) aspects, whereas other hypotheses don't. You can't attribute it all to hoaxes or psychological issues. In contrast, aliens can account for weird images (holograms?), abduction reports, mutilations, landing marks.... The fact that all aspects of the phenomenon increased more or less simultaneously i.e. after WWII, suggests a single basic cause. That, coupled with the explanatory power of the ETH, and parsimony, makes it the best hypothesis by far.
---------- Post added at 03:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:16 PM ----------
There is already "solid" or physical evidence, which together with witness reports, provides an adequate basis for belief. Based on rather limited evidence 40 years ago, most scientists believed T. rex was a predator long before new discoveries provided "solid proof."
I don't think it's so incredible. We've begun exploring other worlds, and know ours is far from the only or oldest star system. According to the fermi paradox, alien visitation is so likely the "absence" of aliens can be taken as evidence they don't exist.
Please tell us any of any conceivable events or evidence that could conclusively prove that this planet is not being visited by alien beings from other planets. Please tell us what could possibly happen to disprove ETH.
You can't.
Every hypothesis, by definition, has to have implicit falsifiability conditions. The worth of a hypothesis is not determined by its ability to explain, but by its ability to be tested multiple times in different ways.
The ETH is not really a hypothesis. It is a suspicion.. A suspicion cannot be put to rest by specific pieces of evidence to the contrary. A suspicion, by its nature, always has escape clauses or loopholes by which conflicting evidence can be explained away. However, a hypothesis can be invalidated by just one piece of evidence or experimental result.
Trajanus
Paranormal Adept
The point was that "solid" or conclusive proof isn't necessary for belief. The bulk of dinosaurologists believed T. rex was a predator based on just morphology, long before conclusive proof became known.* Likewise, while evidence for aliens isn't "solid'--and again I must emphasize as far as we laymen know--it is adequate.
* In fact, they believed it for nearly a century before the case was clinched.
Angel of Ioren
Friendly Skeptic
It isn't adequate enough for everyone.
tyder001
Paranormal Adept
trainedobserver
Paranormally Disenchanted
Ok, I'll bite. Where is the real evidence for an unearthly reality behind it?
tyder001
Paranormal Adept
How condesending and silly. Sorry dude but as a certain other poster who is more skeptical than I am has said to religous folks in the past. "You make absolutely no sense at all." That snarky enough for ya?
Trajanus
Paranormal Adept
Had it not been for a plethora of evidence pointing to it, there would be no ETH in the first place. True, you can't falsify some things, like the existence of witches on brooms, the toothy fairy or santa. But aliens are different in that they at least appear epistemically necessary. You don't need santa to explain where your toys came from, not any more than you need the "god" myth to explain where homo sapiens came from. Mom and pop can explain the first and descent from earlier hominids the second. But generally, no prosaic explanation can explain the UFO phenomenon. It is clearly something beyond our ordinary experience, and technological.
Imvestigators may not falsify the notion of alien visitors but they can falsify specific claims--in many ways. Had they all been falsified, or nearly all, it's very doubtful there would be an ETH.
Lol, the phenomenon itself appears intent on converting us to this "suspicion."
No, it's just that contrary evidence isn't sufficient relative to supporting evidence and no other explanation can be shown to be superior, or even equal.
stphrz
Stuffed Tiger
One last time. I will try to illustrate the point. If you don't get it after this well then I just don't know.
An earlier example discussed by you and Angelo regarding the t-rex:
Hypothesis 1: Based on the physiology of the t-rex, we can say it was a predator. After all it looks like what we think a predator would look like.
This is not really a very good hypothesis. Why? Because no matter how much evidence gathered or instances where the t-rex engaged in non predatory behavior, there could still be yet undiscovered evidence that it did engage in predatory behavior. It has no falsifiablity condition. Too many ifs and buts.
Hypothesis 2: Based on the physiology of the t-rex, we can say it was not a predator. In fact, it was exclusively a scavanger because it could not have moved quickly enough to catch smaller prey and did not have the capacity to kill the very large, slow, and powerful herbivores.
This is actually a better hypothesis. (Even though it turned out to be wrong). It only requires you to find one instance where an animal was bitten by a t-rex and survived to invalidate it. Seeing as how biting a live animal is a defining charateristic of a predator, you can see how it invalidates hypothesis 2 and supports hypothesis 1 by inference.
This all leads to a third hypothesis: The t-rex was a predator and a scavanger because now we can point to evidence of both.
If, in the future, scientists find evidence the t-rex chowed down on leaves or ferns, a new hypothesis about the t-rex and its nature would have to be put forth.
And so on.
A lot of what we know is not built upon what we have proven beyond doubt but rather by hypothesis that have gone unfalsified for a long time despite many serious attempts to do so. The catch is, those hypothesis can all be falsified by only one contrary result or piece of evidence.
That, is science. Science is not a matter of comparing how much evidence for verus evidence against and delaring the winner on the preponderance. Your contention of science supporting your arguments are just so off base its not funny. Please stop.
The ETH is based on a terrestrial model, this planet is teeming with lifeforms, as diverse in physical nature as the eco niches they inhabit, in the terrestrial model, we can see that anywhere that life can gain a foothold it will, it even bounces back after extinction level events.
the idea of life in space that is ET life has been in the news lately
There is no proof, but there is a compelling case as NASA puts it.
Of all the hypothesis there is a compelling case for the ETH.
If this is the mechanism by which life was seeded here, then that is likely to be a mechanism we see repeated anywhere life (as it does in even the harshest eco niches here) can gain a foothold.
If those seeds behave the same way they did here, evolving into myriad lifeforms including technological space faring life forms as we see here.......
This model would clearly conflict with the creation myths though, evolution is still a touchy subject to this very day, panspermia a poison to creation myths.
many dont believe we could have evolved from such seeds, that there must be a devine purpose to our existance.
There are estimated to be up to 100 million species of animals alone on earth, not to mention plants , add to that the older extinct species...... do they all have divine purpose ?
We can SEE other stars like ours, we can see other planets and other galaxys, there is a very compelling case for the ETH, based on the model we can see right here.
When you add that to the witness accounts of structured craft and non human entitys, even if only one of those accounts is true. The ETH becomes the most logical conclusion as an explanation.
the idea of life in space that is ET life has been in the news lately
http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2011...entists-claims-evidence-alien-life-meteorite/
There is no proof, but there is a compelling case as NASA puts it.
Of all the hypothesis there is a compelling case for the ETH.
If this is the mechanism by which life was seeded here, then that is likely to be a mechanism we see repeated anywhere life (as it does in even the harshest eco niches here) can gain a foothold.
If those seeds behave the same way they did here, evolving into myriad lifeforms including technological space faring life forms as we see here.......
This model would clearly conflict with the creation myths though, evolution is still a touchy subject to this very day, panspermia a poison to creation myths.
many dont believe we could have evolved from such seeds, that there must be a devine purpose to our existance.
There are estimated to be up to 100 million species of animals alone on earth, not to mention plants , add to that the older extinct species...... do they all have divine purpose ?
We can SEE other stars like ours, we can see other planets and other galaxys, there is a very compelling case for the ETH, based on the model we can see right here.
When you add that to the witness accounts of structured craft and non human entitys, even if only one of those accounts is true. The ETH becomes the most logical conclusion as an explanation.
exo_doc
Foolish Earthling
Millions of people have reported things in the sky, on the ground, and even in water.
People from ALL walks of life have seen them...teachers, astronomers, pilots, doctors, psychologists, mechanics, police, and on and on.
They have been photographed, filmed, video'd, and radar detected, chased by fighters with visual sightings.
Some have (arguably) left traces- imprints, radiation, metal fragments, ground imprints, and assorted residues.
Some have (arguably) made witnesses faint, nauseous, dizzy, have burned some, and some got radiation sickness.
Some reports are just lights in the sky, others are structured looking craft that behave in ways human built craft cannot duplicate (supposedll).
Actual beings are reported ranging from tiny flying humanoids, to nordics, to grays, to tree monster-looking things.
Some people report they have been/continue to be abducted, experimented on, have had alien/human hybrid babies among various other things.
These sightings effect people on a scale from "Gee Whiz!" all the way to suicide.
And you have to ask if it's worthy of study?
Just from the standpoints of Psychology and Sociology it's worthy of study.
So what if 99% of all sightings are fakes/hoaxes/clouds/meteors/bad acid trip/swamp gas/(add your own)???
It's that measly 1%....-the ones that defy all explanation-- that are worth the effort of exploration and study.
And so what if it can't be bottled up in the laboratory? Not today it can't, but maybe it could be tomorrow.
Evidence and reports need to be kept, analyzed, sorted and processed to look for anything researchers have missed that might lead to a major breakthrough.
In the mean time, I'll keep researching, reading, and studying about UFO's, UAP's and anything else that weird, odd or bizarre.
People from ALL walks of life have seen them...teachers, astronomers, pilots, doctors, psychologists, mechanics, police, and on and on.
They have been photographed, filmed, video'd, and radar detected, chased by fighters with visual sightings.
Some have (arguably) left traces- imprints, radiation, metal fragments, ground imprints, and assorted residues.
Some have (arguably) made witnesses faint, nauseous, dizzy, have burned some, and some got radiation sickness.
Some reports are just lights in the sky, others are structured looking craft that behave in ways human built craft cannot duplicate (supposedll).
Actual beings are reported ranging from tiny flying humanoids, to nordics, to grays, to tree monster-looking things.
Some people report they have been/continue to be abducted, experimented on, have had alien/human hybrid babies among various other things.
These sightings effect people on a scale from "Gee Whiz!" all the way to suicide.
And you have to ask if it's worthy of study?
Just from the standpoints of Psychology and Sociology it's worthy of study.
So what if 99% of all sightings are fakes/hoaxes/clouds/meteors/bad acid trip/swamp gas/(add your own)???
It's that measly 1%....-the ones that defy all explanation-- that are worth the effort of exploration and study.
And so what if it can't be bottled up in the laboratory? Not today it can't, but maybe it could be tomorrow.
Evidence and reports need to be kept, analyzed, sorted and processed to look for anything researchers have missed that might lead to a major breakthrough.
In the mean time, I'll keep researching, reading, and studying about UFO's, UAP's and anything else that weird, odd or bizarre.