ChrisJohnsen
Paranormal Adept
I love it. Classic Wingfield! I wish George would tell us how he really feels...
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February 14, 2016 — Whitley Strieber
- Thread starter Gene Steinberg
- Start date
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ChrisJohnsen
Paranormal Adept
I've watched an episode or two. As successful hunting goes, the "truth" clearly eluded the "hunter" and the production value left a lot to be desired. Still, not as full of shit as Wilcock's Gaia TV series though...
Linda Moulton Doty
Skilled Investigator
George Wingfield: you mean Linda Moulton Doty isn't a real name? I'm shocked.
As for gut feel: sure, it's all you've got until you actually do the work. Some people get stuck at the level of 'is any of this real?' And at that stage, they can't evaluate the work of somebody like Strieber in any real way, but they're willing to give him the benefit of the doubt because maybe they've experienced things, too. Problem is, the question whether any strange experiences happen in general is totally separate from what's going on in Strieber's work. And especially in Strieber's case. He's an evocative writer who has a knack for using just the right word and telling things in just the right order to make it feel real. But it often isn't.
Take this from the paper. This is from an interview Strieber gave in 1985 about his experience at the Whitman shooting. Bear in mind, Strieber later came out in Communion and said he was never there.
As for gut feel: sure, it's all you've got until you actually do the work. Some people get stuck at the level of 'is any of this real?' And at that stage, they can't evaluate the work of somebody like Strieber in any real way, but they're willing to give him the benefit of the doubt because maybe they've experienced things, too. Problem is, the question whether any strange experiences happen in general is totally separate from what's going on in Strieber's work. And especially in Strieber's case. He's an evocative writer who has a knack for using just the right word and telling things in just the right order to make it feel real. But it often isn't.
Take this from the paper. This is from an interview Strieber gave in 1985 about his experience at the Whitman shooting. Bear in mind, Strieber later came out in Communion and said he was never there.
“I had just had a Coke. I was walking from the student union to the academic center, which was an open-shelf library near the Tower, when I heard a sharp bang that echoed off the University co-op across the street behind me. And the reason I am alive today is that I didn’t turn around. I thought it was coming from the Tower. Maybe I saw some movement out of the corner of my eye. All the people in front of me thought the sound came from the co-op in front of us, not the Tower behind.
“The next thing I saw was a little boy on a bicycle coming toward me—his head just exploded. I didn’t hear that one. I knew then that it was coming from the Tower. The other people all took cover that shielded them from the co-op, but left them exposed to the Tower. They were all killed, shot. I ran to a little retaining wall about three feet high which was near that base of the Tower building, about twenty yards from it. And I laid down there.
“He shot two girls in the stomach right behind me, thirty feet away from me. And they were lying there in the grass, screaming, begging, pleading for help, trying to crawl along. One girl’s legs wouldn’t work. The other one was vomiting pieces of herself out of her mouth. And I could smell the blood and the odor of their stomachs, what was in their stomachs and their colons. The smell was horrible coming out of these poor kids, two young coeds. And he did that to get me and this other guy who was hiding behind this embankment to come out. I stayed there. I was sick with dread, watching them die, knowing that that gun was waiting. And the other guy suddenly went out and tried to pull one of them away and got shot in the head and killed. Whitman just shot the top of his head off.
“I stayed right where I was for a long, long time—until I saw them, with my own eyes, bringing Whitman’s body out. The ambulance men came up to me and said, ‘You can come out now, he’s dead.
“But I would not move until I saw him.
Today, some twenty years later, Whitley Strieber still lives in the shadow of the Texas Tower. He sits with me, the tears of those memories burning his eyes, and he is afraid; and the rifle of Charles Whitman, striking from its godlike height, is the relentless symbol of the terror that he has learned to expect from life. (Fear 192-3)
If you look up the Whitman shooting, there was no little boy on a bicycle that got shot in the head.“The next thing I saw was a little boy on a bicycle coming toward me—his head just exploded. I didn’t hear that one. I knew then that it was coming from the Tower. The other people all took cover that shielded them from the co-op, but left them exposed to the Tower. They were all killed, shot. I ran to a little retaining wall about three feet high which was near that base of the Tower building, about twenty yards from it. And I laid down there.
“He shot two girls in the stomach right behind me, thirty feet away from me. And they were lying there in the grass, screaming, begging, pleading for help, trying to crawl along. One girl’s legs wouldn’t work. The other one was vomiting pieces of herself out of her mouth. And I could smell the blood and the odor of their stomachs, what was in their stomachs and their colons. The smell was horrible coming out of these poor kids, two young coeds. And he did that to get me and this other guy who was hiding behind this embankment to come out. I stayed there. I was sick with dread, watching them die, knowing that that gun was waiting. And the other guy suddenly went out and tried to pull one of them away and got shot in the head and killed. Whitman just shot the top of his head off.
“I stayed right where I was for a long, long time—until I saw them, with my own eyes, bringing Whitman’s body out. The ambulance men came up to me and said, ‘You can come out now, he’s dead.
“But I would not move until I saw him.
Today, some twenty years later, Whitley Strieber still lives in the shadow of the Texas Tower. He sits with me, the tears of those memories burning his eyes, and he is afraid; and the rifle of Charles Whitman, striking from its godlike height, is the relentless symbol of the terror that he has learned to expect from life. (Fear 192-3)
callmesnake
Skilled Investigator
Can't believe people are still deliberating over the things sci fi fantasy writer comes up with.
Despite the many false claims.
Nothing to see here, move along.
Despite the many false claims.
Nothing to see here, move along.
Linda Moulton Doty
Skilled Investigator
*facepalm*
Ive often had my doubts about Whitley, But you know if his story is true, That's to be expected. That's perfectly normal.
If the "message" were true, you would almost have to doubt the messenger given how outside our experience the story is.
But there is one part of his narrative that sticks out, that strikes a chord in me.
Its the recounting of the night he allegedly asks his alleged visitors "What gives you the right to do this to me and my family. To take me from my bed and frighten me and them?"
The answer is a universal truth that to me is deeply profound. The answer was "The ability to do so".
The alleged reply is a truism we humans exploit as a mechanism, indeed all animals exploit it. Its not in and of itself "offplanet" in its expression.
But we humans don't tend to be honest enough to admit it on the whole. We give other reasons, other justifications for what we do.
His entire body of work might indeed be fiction, but that one single example represents to me a philosophical truth that ranks as the most important truth ive ever comprehended.
We are more likely to say we did it in self defense, or because we had no other choice. We did it for the greater good. The needs of the many etc etc.
The brutal honesty, the guileless, guiltless reply he claims he got, isn't the normal human excuse for a bad deed done.
Humans don't say we bombed Hiroshima because we could. We firebombed Dresden because we could. We find answers that make those choices seem justified.
The reply he says he got wasn't a human reply imo. But that proves nothing. But i always found that reply so profound i could believe an "alien" could have said it.
His entire body of work could indeed be a fiction, but that single alleged exchange to me represents a universal philosophical truism that speaks to me louder than anything ive ever read ever.
Its the sort of literal brutal honesty we sometimes see in people with Asperger's syndrome. But Whitley doesn't seem to have this condition as far as i can tell.
If the "message" were true, you would almost have to doubt the messenger given how outside our experience the story is.
But there is one part of his narrative that sticks out, that strikes a chord in me.
Its the recounting of the night he allegedly asks his alleged visitors "What gives you the right to do this to me and my family. To take me from my bed and frighten me and them?"
The answer is a universal truth that to me is deeply profound. The answer was "The ability to do so".
The alleged reply is a truism we humans exploit as a mechanism, indeed all animals exploit it. Its not in and of itself "offplanet" in its expression.
But we humans don't tend to be honest enough to admit it on the whole. We give other reasons, other justifications for what we do.
His entire body of work might indeed be fiction, but that one single example represents to me a philosophical truth that ranks as the most important truth ive ever comprehended.
We are more likely to say we did it in self defense, or because we had no other choice. We did it for the greater good. The needs of the many etc etc.
The brutal honesty, the guileless, guiltless reply he claims he got, isn't the normal human excuse for a bad deed done.
Humans don't say we bombed Hiroshima because we could. We firebombed Dresden because we could. We find answers that make those choices seem justified.
The reply he says he got wasn't a human reply imo. But that proves nothing. But i always found that reply so profound i could believe an "alien" could have said it.
His entire body of work could indeed be a fiction, but that single alleged exchange to me represents a universal philosophical truism that speaks to me louder than anything ive ever read ever.
Its the sort of literal brutal honesty we sometimes see in people with Asperger's syndrome. But Whitley doesn't seem to have this condition as far as i can tell.
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Linda Moulton Doty
Skilled Investigator
The answer wasn't 'the ability to do so'. It was: 'we do have a right'.
marduk
quelling chaos since 2352BC
I think Howe went off the deep end when she had that disinfo session - if in fact, that happened.
Before then, she was quite methodical. After that, bonzo time.
Strieber went off the deep end when Communion became a hit and he started to live in an echo chamber. That, and the experience itself maybe drove him around the bend. I think losing his wife has totally made him go off the deep end.
Before then, she was quite methodical. After that, bonzo time.
Strieber went off the deep end when Communion became a hit and he started to live in an echo chamber. That, and the experience itself maybe drove him around the bend. I think losing his wife has totally made him go off the deep end.
My apologies you are quite correct, not sure where i got that exchange from. It may be another of his books or even someone else's abduction narrative. I'll see if i cant find out where and who claimed to have had that exchange.
George Wingfield
Paranormal Maven
LINDA MOULTON DOTY ? You mean Linda Moulton Doty isn't a real name? I'm shocked!
Well, OK, LMD! –I don’t mind what you call yourself but we did have a bit of trouble before with fake ufologists on the internet such as “Anthony Bragalia” who turned out to be John Lundberg –the man behind the Roswell Slides Hoax.. He was being billed as “the World’s Greatest UFO Researcher” three years ago though I suggested that his false name was in fact simply a combination of “Bragger’ and “Liar’.
I’m not sure that either Whitley Strieber or Linda Howe can be correctly described as UFO researchers. All of horror fiction writer Whitley’s experiences, such as his alien abduction in Communion and his claim to being pinned down under fire at Austin by UT tower shooter Charles Whitman in 1966, seem to have taken place solely in Whitley’s head. I was left in no doubt of that by what his wife Anne Strieber told me twenty years ago.
It is indeed ironic, as Chris says, that LMH’s new Game TV show is called “Truth Hunter”. Her strange world of UFOs, gray aliens, conspiracy theories, contactees, abductees, alien cattle mutilations, and US government cover-ups is just as fictional and fantasy-based as is Whitley’s.
Just for the record, I am George Wingfield and I am a real person --as Chris and Gene will confirm.
Well, OK, LMD! –I don’t mind what you call yourself but we did have a bit of trouble before with fake ufologists on the internet such as “Anthony Bragalia” who turned out to be John Lundberg –the man behind the Roswell Slides Hoax.. He was being billed as “the World’s Greatest UFO Researcher” three years ago though I suggested that his false name was in fact simply a combination of “Bragger’ and “Liar’.
I’m not sure that either Whitley Strieber or Linda Howe can be correctly described as UFO researchers. All of horror fiction writer Whitley’s experiences, such as his alien abduction in Communion and his claim to being pinned down under fire at Austin by UT tower shooter Charles Whitman in 1966, seem to have taken place solely in Whitley’s head. I was left in no doubt of that by what his wife Anne Strieber told me twenty years ago.
It is indeed ironic, as Chris says, that LMH’s new Game TV show is called “Truth Hunter”. Her strange world of UFOs, gray aliens, conspiracy theories, contactees, abductees, alien cattle mutilations, and US government cover-ups is just as fictional and fantasy-based as is Whitley’s.
Just for the record, I am George Wingfield and I am a real person --as Chris and Gene will confirm.
Your sure about Bragalia/Lundberg?
George Wingfield
Paranormal Maven
YES, I am sure. We went over this a year or two back and everything indicated that Lundberg and his partner in crime, Rob Irving, were playing the role of the unseen “Anthony Bragalia” who was only ever contactable via the internet. Both of them blogged under other false names either supporting the authenticity of the Roswell Slides or denouncing them as fake on Kevin Randle’s ‘A Different Perspective’. Lundberg also followed the Roswell Slides debate on The Paracast Forum adding occasional comments under the blogging name “Ostension”. As you know, he declined your offer for him to appear on The Paracast since he would have been asked about the Roswell Slides and his role in the affair.
I don’t think anyone now denies that the “Roswell Slides” business was an elaborate hoax designed to deceive Roswell believers and in particular that small group who called themselves the Roswell Dream Team. Although Bragalia hoped to hook Stanton Friedman and/or Kevin Randle, both of them stood well back and the principal victims of the hoax were Don Schmitt and Tom Carey –plus, of course, Jaime Maussan—who all fell for it hook, line and sinker.
At about the time of Maussan’s 2015 ‘Be Witness” event which presented the slides as genuine proof of alien bodies recovered from the Roswell Crash, Anthony Bragalia suddenly withdrew saying: “Oops! Seems that our slides showing the small alien corpse were merely old photos of a mummified Native American child after all”. Some skeptics from the RSRG (Roswell Slides Research Group) foolishly chose to accept this ridiculous and untrue excuse --and the inference that Bragalia himself was genuine-- since their only interest was in torpedoing Jaime Maussan and his supporters. The RSRG even had its own undercover spy in Maussan’s camp before and at the time of the Be Witness event in Mexico City.
I have a document which I wrote from June 2015 giving ten compelling reasons for believing that the Roswell Slides Hoax was perpetrated by John Lundberg and Rob Irving. If that hasn’t been published already --and if anyone is still interested-- I will post it on this forum.
It seems very likely now that the Roswell Slides photos (there never were any actual Kodachrome transparencies from 1947/1948) were either based on a photograph of a custom-built alien dummy or else that of a child’s mummified corpse. The higher resolution versions of these photos that were supplied to Carey, Schmitt and Maussan were almost certainly doctored using PhotoShop or similar to show several subtle non-human (“alien”) characteristics. That is one reason why those members of the Roswell Dream Team were so completely deceived. The lower resolution versions of the Roswell Slides photos which appeared on the internet, and were seen by the public, did not show these subtle alien details which were discussed at length by Jaime Maussan in one of his videos put out at the time.
The Roswell Slides “alien body” hoax was in many ways similar to Ray Santilli’s “Alien Autopsy” hoax of 1995 which is hardly surprising given that it was created and produced by two of the same people, John Lundberg and Rob Irving.
George
Intriguing hypothesis George, but you seem to be making a whole lot of assumptions without any real evidence to support your claims. Question: How should the amorphous "we" proceed in an effort to get the your alleged hoaxers to give up irrefutable mea culpas? Anyone out there have a unequivocal leg up on who is behind the moniker "Anthony Bragalia"? Many inquiring minds would like to know, so step up and sing out! 
Han
piscator ψ
I have to disagree, I think the fact that we are still talking about it demonstrates how elaborate it was.
It is like the ink dot test, very simple in term of its components, but the results are anything but.
I am not convinced that different "manipulated" slides were shown initially but it is a possibility, either way it is important to note that the slides alone wouldn't have done much, they needed "provenance" and the story that accompanied them was extremely "elaborate" with connections to Eisenhower, Roswell and Area 51 .
In other words the whole thing was pitch perfect, and believers and sceptics alike were all listening to it willingly.
Just like with all the moon and mars anomaly videos, your attention and "presence" (as in clicks/views for advertising $) are what counts, or rather what the "perpetrator/s" are after.
I twisted myself into knots trying to get my head around why anybody would believe it, and I found empathising almost impossible, but I still spent a long time talking about it.
I spent some time trying to reconcile what had happened to me and looked for silver linings and I did learn some extremely valuable lessons, but I am still left with an uneasy feeling because I was so invested so quickly, it makes me wonder and question everything in terms of UFOs.
I don't think it is coincidence that so many people are upset about "fake" news at the moment. The techniques employed are pretty much identical, and demonstrate how easily we can be misled.
It seems as if "they" know us better than we know ourselves.
Linda Moulton Doty
Skilled Investigator
If I remember right, once the images were cleaned up, it was pretty clear the body was inside a case and had a placard next to it. A sane interpretation would have been this thing was a specimen inside a museum or school laboratory. But you had Jaime Moussan and Linda Moulton Howe (no relation) and others getting carried away with connecting it to Roswell. The whole thing showed that those promoting it were past it and should just retire.
Incidentally, since this thread is about Whitley Strieber - I remember him coming out even after the slides were more or less shown to be of museum pieces, and suggesting that some obscure principle of physics might have meant that a force had gone back in time to alter the slides and obscure the evidence.
Incidentally, since this thread is about Whitley Strieber - I remember him coming out even after the slides were more or less shown to be of museum pieces, and suggesting that some obscure principle of physics might have meant that a force had gone back in time to alter the slides and obscure the evidence.
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Linda Moulton Doty
Skilled Investigator
You mean the fetus that showed up in Greer's film?
No, the Urandir Oliveira abduction hoax in Brazil 2002. See: UFOWatchdog for more
Linda Moulton Doty
Skilled Investigator
Ohhhh... I remember this. Weren't these people napalm victims?