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Gaza Israel bombings
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michaelangel1453
Skilled Investigator
I've laid out my points very factually, and all of you are capable of following up my suggestions of where to do more balanced research.
There have been thousands of rockets fired at Israel in this time around alone. What should Israel do, sit back and let them come in? No, they are actively defending themselves by moving in as carefully as they can and by shooting down many with Iron Dome. They should limit themselves to Iron Dome? Instead of governing appropriately, Hamas digs tunnels and stockpiles increasingly more sophisticated rockets, though with the lack of sympathy it's getting from its arms suppliers, they're going to be hard to replace. Hezbollah in Lebanon did and does the same.
The retort to my statement about the medical treatment to at least a quarter million Palestinians allowed to enter Israel to receive it is indicative of the shallow responses my posts get, or I'm called names and accused of stuff.
I will continue to present facts.
There have been thousands of rockets fired at Israel in this time around alone. What should Israel do, sit back and let them come in? No, they are actively defending themselves by moving in as carefully as they can and by shooting down many with Iron Dome. They should limit themselves to Iron Dome? Instead of governing appropriately, Hamas digs tunnels and stockpiles increasingly more sophisticated rockets, though with the lack of sympathy it's getting from its arms suppliers, they're going to be hard to replace. Hezbollah in Lebanon did and does the same.
The retort to my statement about the medical treatment to at least a quarter million Palestinians allowed to enter Israel to receive it is indicative of the shallow responses my posts get, or I'm called names and accused of stuff.
I will continue to present facts.
Tyger
Paranormal Adept
Yet they still continue, knowing how Israelis will respond. Talk about a bunch of retards.
So were the slaves who continued to try to escape from their Plantation owners in the South (US) - knowing full well the horrific consequences they would endure if caught - a bunch of retards?
What you are effectively arguing is that human beings should buckle under intimidation and the lash - however delivered. Israel wants the Palestinians to be docile and meek. They want the Palestinians to accept that Israel has taken their land and leveled their homes. World history of the 20th century illustrates that it doesn't happen that way. People remember - people struggle - even if a century or more passes.
Sadly, one can sense the pleasure people feel that the Palestinians are being taught a lesson. It's even being claimed that the Palestinians have brought this upon themselves. Israel is hoping the Palestinians will turn on Hamas: "if you (Hamas) hadn't fought Israel this would't have happened. This happened because 'we' disobeyed - because 'we' would not accept the conditions of our open-air prison." This is what the Israelis are hoping for. They have said as much. It's an age-old argument that the oppressor/sadist perpetrates in the mentality of the oppressed/victim.
Last edited:
Ziotroll Fiction.
Fact.
Total fatalities in the history of rocket and mortar attacks from Gaza into Israel: 40
[ 8 of them were not Israeli ]
Civilians: 27 (including 2 killed at military posts)
Soldiers: 13
Rocket fatalities only: 22
Total fatality-producing strikes: 29 (18 rocket, 11 mortar)
Total rocket and mortar fatalities incurred in Israel during
Operation “Cast Lead”: December 27, 2008–January 18, 2009
Operation “Pillar of Cloud”: November 14, 2012–November 21, 2012
Operation “Protective Edge”: July 8, 2014–
major Israeli “anti-rocket” military offensives: 23
Theres the reality, the true result of the 'raining' hamas rockets, 17 deaths from rockets and mortors in all those long long years, the other 23 were war casualties.
Fact.
Total fatalities in the history of rocket and mortar attacks from Gaza into Israel: 40
[ 8 of them were not Israeli ]
Civilians: 27 (including 2 killed at military posts)
Soldiers: 13
Rocket fatalities only: 22
Total fatality-producing strikes: 29 (18 rocket, 11 mortar)
Total rocket and mortar fatalities incurred in Israel during
Operation “Cast Lead”: December 27, 2008–January 18, 2009
Operation “Pillar of Cloud”: November 14, 2012–November 21, 2012
Operation “Protective Edge”: July 8, 2014–
major Israeli “anti-rocket” military offensives: 23
Theres the reality, the true result of the 'raining' hamas rockets, 17 deaths from rockets and mortors in all those long long years, the other 23 were war casualties.
michaelangel1453
Skilled Investigator
My last post addressed this completely.
I'll go, say, with your stats. Good for Iron Dome and good for Israel to aggressively defending itself. It's supposed to sit back and let thousands come in and only use Iron Dome? Ludicrous.
And Palestinians live as they do because their fellow Arabs don't give a damn about them. They're oppressed and intimidated for sure for decades by their fellow Arabs and their governments over decades. Arafat spent European and American money right and left and not on "his" people. These are facts and we all learned them many years ago and they've only been confirmed.
I'll go, say, with your stats. Good for Iron Dome and good for Israel to aggressively defending itself. It's supposed to sit back and let thousands come in and only use Iron Dome? Ludicrous.
And Palestinians live as they do because their fellow Arabs don't give a damn about them. They're oppressed and intimidated for sure for decades by their fellow Arabs and their governments over decades. Arafat spent European and American money right and left and not on "his" people. These are facts and we all learned them many years ago and they've only been confirmed.
michaelangel1453
Skilled Investigator
Yes, I know, and I saw the term you used. I addressed your stats in my last two posts.
Tyger
Paranormal Adept
How complex this whole situation is - I am very suspicious of the 'convenience' of this capture - though it appears to have happened. Though why the invoking of the censorship? Israel has something to hide, methinks. It creates the required 'legitimacy' needed - in the on-going attempt by Israel to create the impression that they are always the one's who are wronged and are 'forced' to take the violent route.
Just once I would like to see Israel take the higher road. Just once. Have they ever reacted in any way other than in an retaliatory manner? I am open to being educated in this matter.
Gaza Cease-Fire Collapses; Israeli Soldier Is Captured
LINK: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/02/w....html?emc=edit_na_20140801&nlid=54852892&_r=0
Text: "JERUSALEM — A newly reached cease-fire in the Gaza conflict quickly collapsed on Friday as the Israeli military announced that two soldiers had been killed and a third apparently captured by Palestinian militants who emerged from a tunnel near Rafah in the southern Gaza Strip.
Gaza health officials said 35 Palestinians had been killed and more than 100 wounded as Israeli forces bombarded the area. Palestinian witnesses said by telephone that Israeli tank shells had hit eastern Rafah as residents returned to inspect homes they had evacuated.
Each side accused the other of violating the 72-hour truce, which disintegrated in less than two hours.
Hamas, the dominant militant group in Gaza, said in a statement that Israel’s announcement about the capture of an Israeli soldier was intended “to cover up the barbaric massacres, especially in Rafah.”
Hamas did not claim responsibility for seizing the soldier, adding another layer of confusion. Hamas’s military wing, the Qassam Brigades, issued an ambiguous statement several hours after the event denying that it had violated the cease-fire and saying that Israeli troops had advanced into eastern Rafah well before the cease-fire’s 8 a.m. start. It made no mention of a soldier’s capture.
“Due to this Zionist invasion, our holy fighters clashed with the forces and killed a large number at 7 a.m.,” the statement said. It added, “We emphasize that any Zionist forces violating our liberated land would be subject to our holy fighters’ fire and a legitimate target.”
Moussa Abu Marzouk, a senior official in the political wing of Hamas, had been quoted by Turkish news reports earlier Friday as saying that Hamas had taken a soldier captive but claiming that it had done so before the cease-fire began. Later Mr. Abu Marzouk said on his Twitter account that the Turkish news accounts had misrepresented his remarks and that he had said only that Hamas was told a soldier had been seized.
Israel’s military vehemently denied Hamas’s account of the timing of the clash, saying it began 90 minutes after the cease-fire took hold.
Lt. Col. Peter Lerner, a spokesman for the Israeli military, said that government forces had been moving to destroy a tunnel, as the terms of the cease-fire allowed for, when several militants came out of the ground.
Colonel Lerner said the militants included at least one suicide attacker. There was an exchange of fire, he said, and initial indications were that a soldier was dragged back into the tunnel. He was unable to offer details about the soldier’s condition.
The cease-fire is over,” he said, adding that the military was carrying out “extensive operations on the ground” to try to locate the missing soldier.
The Israeli military identified the missing soldier as Second Lt. Hadar Goldin, a 23-year-old officer in an infantry brigade. Later the soldier’s father, Simcha Goldin, speaking to journalists outside his home in Kfar Saba, Israel, said he was confident that Israel’s military forces would “not stop under any circumstances until they have turned over every stone in Gaza and have brought Hadar home healthy and whole.”
After the initial publication of this article, the military’s censor informed The New York Times that further information related to Lieutenant Goldin would have to be submitted for prior review. Journalists for foreign news organizations must agree in writing to the military censorship system to work in Israel. This was the first censorship notification The Times had received in more than two years.
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of Israel spoke with Secretary of State John Kerry on Friday afternoon, according to a statement from his office. “The Palestinians have blatantly and unilaterally violated the humanitarian cease-fire and attacked our soldiers after 9 a.m.” Mr. Netanyahu told Mr. Kerry the statement said, adding that “Hamas and the other terrorist organizations in Gaza would bear the consequences of their acts.”
Both Mr. Kerry and Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon of the United Nations, which had arranged the cease-fire, denounced the reported capture of the soldier. "
Just once I would like to see Israel take the higher road. Just once. Have they ever reacted in any way other than in an retaliatory manner? I am open to being educated in this matter.
Gaza Cease-Fire Collapses; Israeli Soldier Is Captured
LINK: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/02/w....html?emc=edit_na_20140801&nlid=54852892&_r=0
Text: "JERUSALEM — A newly reached cease-fire in the Gaza conflict quickly collapsed on Friday as the Israeli military announced that two soldiers had been killed and a third apparently captured by Palestinian militants who emerged from a tunnel near Rafah in the southern Gaza Strip.
Gaza health officials said 35 Palestinians had been killed and more than 100 wounded as Israeli forces bombarded the area. Palestinian witnesses said by telephone that Israeli tank shells had hit eastern Rafah as residents returned to inspect homes they had evacuated.
Each side accused the other of violating the 72-hour truce, which disintegrated in less than two hours.
Hamas, the dominant militant group in Gaza, said in a statement that Israel’s announcement about the capture of an Israeli soldier was intended “to cover up the barbaric massacres, especially in Rafah.”
Hamas did not claim responsibility for seizing the soldier, adding another layer of confusion. Hamas’s military wing, the Qassam Brigades, issued an ambiguous statement several hours after the event denying that it had violated the cease-fire and saying that Israeli troops had advanced into eastern Rafah well before the cease-fire’s 8 a.m. start. It made no mention of a soldier’s capture.
“Due to this Zionist invasion, our holy fighters clashed with the forces and killed a large number at 7 a.m.,” the statement said. It added, “We emphasize that any Zionist forces violating our liberated land would be subject to our holy fighters’ fire and a legitimate target.”
Moussa Abu Marzouk, a senior official in the political wing of Hamas, had been quoted by Turkish news reports earlier Friday as saying that Hamas had taken a soldier captive but claiming that it had done so before the cease-fire began. Later Mr. Abu Marzouk said on his Twitter account that the Turkish news accounts had misrepresented his remarks and that he had said only that Hamas was told a soldier had been seized.
Israel’s military vehemently denied Hamas’s account of the timing of the clash, saying it began 90 minutes after the cease-fire took hold.
Lt. Col. Peter Lerner, a spokesman for the Israeli military, said that government forces had been moving to destroy a tunnel, as the terms of the cease-fire allowed for, when several militants came out of the ground.
Colonel Lerner said the militants included at least one suicide attacker. There was an exchange of fire, he said, and initial indications were that a soldier was dragged back into the tunnel. He was unable to offer details about the soldier’s condition.
The cease-fire is over,” he said, adding that the military was carrying out “extensive operations on the ground” to try to locate the missing soldier.
The Israeli military identified the missing soldier as Second Lt. Hadar Goldin, a 23-year-old officer in an infantry brigade. Later the soldier’s father, Simcha Goldin, speaking to journalists outside his home in Kfar Saba, Israel, said he was confident that Israel’s military forces would “not stop under any circumstances until they have turned over every stone in Gaza and have brought Hadar home healthy and whole.”
After the initial publication of this article, the military’s censor informed The New York Times that further information related to Lieutenant Goldin would have to be submitted for prior review. Journalists for foreign news organizations must agree in writing to the military censorship system to work in Israel. This was the first censorship notification The Times had received in more than two years.
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of Israel spoke with Secretary of State John Kerry on Friday afternoon, according to a statement from his office. “The Palestinians have blatantly and unilaterally violated the humanitarian cease-fire and attacked our soldiers after 9 a.m.” Mr. Netanyahu told Mr. Kerry the statement said, adding that “Hamas and the other terrorist organizations in Gaza would bear the consequences of their acts.”
Both Mr. Kerry and Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon of the United Nations, which had arranged the cease-fire, denounced the reported capture of the soldier. "
michaelangel1453
Skilled Investigator
This is the very Times article I referenced in my earlier post. I said that some diligence would reveal dramatic support in comments for Israel, using the comments themselves and, very telling, the recommends from fellow readers.
Now, I didn't use a calculator, but I'm good with mental math and some pencil work and I did more than a merely quasi proficient analysis. Invoking our tried and true judicial system, as exemplified by, yes, the jury system, and merely noting but not ascribing any mathematical weight per se that Times readers are very liberal and inclined to be suspicious of Israel, the clear verdict is Hamas guilty as charged on violating the cease fire and further deserving of condemnation for attacking Israel and clear support for Israel in defending itself.
The people have spoken.
Now, I didn't use a calculator, but I'm good with mental math and some pencil work and I did more than a merely quasi proficient analysis. Invoking our tried and true judicial system, as exemplified by, yes, the jury system, and merely noting but not ascribing any mathematical weight per se that Times readers are very liberal and inclined to be suspicious of Israel, the clear verdict is Hamas guilty as charged on violating the cease fire and further deserving of condemnation for attacking Israel and clear support for Israel in defending itself.
The people have spoken.
stonehart
Paranormal Adept
Like this one from the Israeli Times that has now been pulled from view... well not before a few anons capped the page.
flipper
Paranormal Adept
There is too much civilized debate and not enough outrage at what is happening in Gaza.
flipper
Paranormal Adept
Here are two other news sources which I believe try to speak the truth. In case you think that Palestinians have undo influence on them both were started and are headed by Jews. Myself I listen to the CBC for a different point of view. The CBC tells me what I should be thinking and how I should think.
FAIR — FAIR is the national progressive media watchdog group, challenging corporate media bias, spin and misinformation.
The Real News Network - Independent News, Blogs and Editorials
I hope this helps.
Lest we forget:
Wade
FeralNormal master
No doubt, there will be those out there that will dismiss this video as editorializing or propaganda. Those people have no soul.
Tyger
Paranormal Adept
Regarding the NY Times article, one cannot reference an article that did not exist because the events had not yet happened at the time of reference. 
If the article had been linked, no debate. It was not linked - why I don't know, but whatever article that was being referenced was not the one I linked to.
Also, this linked article has been updated and added to since I linked. A notable example has the initial article stating: "After the initial publication of this article, the military’s censor informed The New York Times that further information related to Lieutenant Goldin would have to be submitted for prior review. Journalists for foreign news organizations must agree in writing to the military censorship system to work in Israel. This was the first censorship notification The Times had received in more than two years."
Today the above paragraph reads: "After the initial publication of this article, the military’s censor informed The New York Times that further information related to Lieutenant Goldin would have to be submitted for prior review. Journalists for foreign news organizations must agree in writing to the military censorship system to work in Israel. This was the first censorship notification The Times had received in more than six years."
As for the comments to this article, they are far from 100% in the direction indicated by another poster - at least for this article that I have linked to. In fact, I would say by far there is a very even-handed insight into the rationales of both sides. There are very insightful comments - one after another. Keeping in mind that we actually do not really have many facts, it behooves no one to jump to conclusions and the tenor of a good portion of the comments are along the lines of seeing the whole rather than a part or a side. I'm impressed. I was copying nearly one comment after another so that should give you the jist of the overall tenor of the comments -
COMMENT: "Mr. Yadlin, who now directs the Institute for National Security Studies at Tel Aviv University, also said it was possible that the militants who emerged from the tunnel on Friday were cut off and did not know of the cease-fire. “In the absence of any command and control, “he said, “it could be that they emerged to commit a ‘preset’ attack that it had prepared earlier.”
This is entirely possible....the militants in Gaza have poor if any communication ability at this point, Israel should just cool for a moment before resuming the bombing to let the word of the cease fire get around to all parties involved rather than prolonging the destruction. It sorta reminds me of the movie depictions of lone soldiers on an island that have no idea the war is over and keep on fighting. On the other hand, Israel also seems bent on total destruction and demoralization of the entire Gaza strip with as much or more vigor than Hamas' vision of the disappearance of Israel."
COMMENT: "Without a political end in view, these military operations are a "tunnel" to nowhere. The tragedy, at this point in time, is we have no Nelson Mandela on either side ---someone who is able to step outside of their culture and see into the hearts and minds of others who hate them ---a rare commodity amongst our present class of world leaders. Extremists on both sides are driving this human catastrophe and to what end? To be a civilian caught in the middle of this, what a horror ---no place to go, no power to do anything about the warring factions, and no life realistic life goals."
COMMENT: "Did anyone here read the article? The cease-fire seems to have been bogus from the get-go:
Regarding the suspected capture of a soldier on Friday, Amos Yadlin, a former chief of Israel’s military intelligence directorate, said, “I think that what happened here is that the details of the cease-fire were not sufficiently clarified.” In an interview with Israel Radio he said that the Israeli military will not leave Gaza until it completes its effort to demolish tunnels, even during a ceasefire. “It is not completely clear to me if this was clear to Hamas,” he said. (He) also said it was possible that the militants who emerged from the tunnel on Friday were cut off and did not know of the cease-fire.
So Israel continued its campaign "even during a cease-fire". Its interesting that it's Israeli media that points that out."
COMMENT: "An attempted kidnapping 90 minutes after the cease fire is to go into effect clearly violates the cease fire. But it is an isolated incident involving a single Israeli soldier whose present condition is unknown -- for all anyone knows, he may have escaped to safety. IMO, this is the sort of incident that the Israelis could choose to overlook, hoping the cease fire otherwise holds. The fact the Netanyahu's office calls this a blatant violation and retaliates by killing 14 Palestinians makes clear to me that Israel's interest in a cease fire remains marginal, at best."
COMMENT: "Benni Morris, one of the preeminent Israeli historians and an expert on the history of the founding of Israel points out that three of Israel's prime ministers were members of terrorist organization and these organizations specifically targeted civilians. That was in 1948 and their cause was the formation of a Jewish state. Did that justify the murder of hundreds of Palestinians? You decide.
While no one wants to see this wanton destruction of human life continue, it's important to recognize this history of violence on both sides and see the means to move beyond it.
Hamas has said that they will not recognize Israel, but they would be part of a government that did, as long as that government reflected the will of the Palestinian people. Israel is a state and has the most powerful army in the region. The Palestinians have nothing but a small territory under military occupation and Gaza under military embargo. The solution to this violence lies in the creation of a viable Palestinian state, now, not five years if the ever increasing number of conditions demanded by Netanyahu are met. Short of that they will continue to resist, just as the Jewish forces were determined to wage war until Israel was established."
COMMENT: "At least part of the problem here is that we are content with false peace. It is not peace when both sides are building up military assets, tunnels and rockets, while also isolating each other and issuing hateful propaganda.
Also, world opinion allows both sides to appeal to outsiders rather than appeal to each other. We are at least 50% of the problem here whether we like it or not.
Peace exists when both sides want peace to exist. When both sides believe that there is a process through which justice is achieved much of the time and that injustice is not systemic. When both sides believe they can [live] with the other and not only at the expense of the other.
Peace exists when we no longer use the term "both sides" because "us" and "them" is no longer relevant.
Until these things change, there will not be peace. At best there will be a temporary quieting of hostilities."
COMMENT: "Even if every Israeli argument about its need to defend itself is true and even if Hamas' continued launching of missiles into Israel is the underlying cause of the current fighting, a strategy which kills nearly 1500 civilians is untenable. At some point, the sheer immorality of killing civilians in such numbers has to be as important a factor in Israel's response to Hamas as is defense against the missiles. It doesn't even matter if Hamas really is using the civilians as "human shields." That does not justify killing the shields just because those using them can be blamed. They are innocent people who are dead, no matter what. Israel must rethink its policy in light of moral considerations instead of political ones."
COMMENT: "Well said. Israeli insensitivity to the misery of Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza seems every day more monstrous. As does the shock Israelis express when Palestinians in both regions target civilians, this being a basic feature of radically asymmetrical warfare whenever conflicts of this kind erupt.
What do you expect us to do? each side says, seemingly unaware that their opponent has equally urgent reasons for framing that question.
There is an almost remarkable inability, on both sides, to come to terms with the misery each has inflicted on the other. The insularity, and inhumanity, of both sides is the most telling feature of this interminable conflict."
COMMENT: "Israel needs a neighbor that recognizes its right to exist and acts accordingly. Gaza needs concessions that will allow it economic and political autonomy. The confrontation here makes it ever less likely that either side will advance its self interests. In a sense, both sides have donned suicide vests and are doing their best to assure that the other side goes down while they themselves go down. And you thought the U.S. government was dysfunctional."
COMMENT: " 'The game itself is so rigged that it is absurd to expect any human being with self-respect to feel that they should play by a set of rules that have led them into the reality they live in.'
Exactly right. One of the most disheartening features of this conflict is the widespread tendency to cite instances of Palestinian aggression as evidence of some deeper sickness in the culture, or in Islam. The Palestinians are behaving as people have historically behaved when placed in desperate circumstances. Launching rockets on civilian populations is both morally indefensible and utterly predictable. That Israelis continue to be genuinely outraged by it just seems to me to be evidence of a dangerous insularity in their thinking about this conflict."
COMMENT: "In order to end war you can only make peace with your enemy. Hamas is determined to end the blockade/siege of Gaza along with fighting for the creation of a Palestinian nation state including Gaza, the West Bank and East Jerusalem. Along with the return of Palestinians living in exile to these lands and Israel.
Hamas is no more a terrorist organization than were Irgun, Stern Gang/Lehi and Haganah/Palmach. Hamas is no more a terrorist organization than is the Israel Defense Force which succeeded these entities. All of these entities were deemed freedom fighters. Either they are all freedom fighters or all terrorist organizations.
Neither Gaza, nor the West Bank nor East Jerusalem are nation states with people created equal by a Creator with certain unalienable rights including life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Because of the Israeli occupation, blockade/siege and exile. And Palestinian Israeli's are 2nd class citizens in the nation state of Jewish people. Israel is no more a democracy than were Jim Crow America or apartheid South Africa.
There are between 4 and 4.5 million Palestinians living in these lands. There are thus about 70-80 times as many Americans. With 1400 dead that would be between 100-115,000 dead Americans. And with 6000 wounded that would be the equivalent of 420-480, 000 Americans. There would be between 10-24,000 dead American women and children.
A one state civil secular egalitarian plural democracy is the only just solution."
If the article had been linked, no debate. It was not linked - why I don't know, but whatever article that was being referenced was not the one I linked to.Also, this linked article has been updated and added to since I linked. A notable example has the initial article stating: "After the initial publication of this article, the military’s censor informed The New York Times that further information related to Lieutenant Goldin would have to be submitted for prior review. Journalists for foreign news organizations must agree in writing to the military censorship system to work in Israel. This was the first censorship notification The Times had received in more than two years."
Today the above paragraph reads: "After the initial publication of this article, the military’s censor informed The New York Times that further information related to Lieutenant Goldin would have to be submitted for prior review. Journalists for foreign news organizations must agree in writing to the military censorship system to work in Israel. This was the first censorship notification The Times had received in more than six years."
As for the comments to this article, they are far from 100% in the direction indicated by another poster - at least for this article that I have linked to. In fact, I would say by far there is a very even-handed insight into the rationales of both sides. There are very insightful comments - one after another. Keeping in mind that we actually do not really have many facts, it behooves no one to jump to conclusions and the tenor of a good portion of the comments are along the lines of seeing the whole rather than a part or a side. I'm impressed. I was copying nearly one comment after another so that should give you the jist of the overall tenor of the comments -
COMMENT: "Mr. Yadlin, who now directs the Institute for National Security Studies at Tel Aviv University, also said it was possible that the militants who emerged from the tunnel on Friday were cut off and did not know of the cease-fire. “In the absence of any command and control, “he said, “it could be that they emerged to commit a ‘preset’ attack that it had prepared earlier.”
This is entirely possible....the militants in Gaza have poor if any communication ability at this point, Israel should just cool for a moment before resuming the bombing to let the word of the cease fire get around to all parties involved rather than prolonging the destruction. It sorta reminds me of the movie depictions of lone soldiers on an island that have no idea the war is over and keep on fighting. On the other hand, Israel also seems bent on total destruction and demoralization of the entire Gaza strip with as much or more vigor than Hamas' vision of the disappearance of Israel."
COMMENT: "Without a political end in view, these military operations are a "tunnel" to nowhere. The tragedy, at this point in time, is we have no Nelson Mandela on either side ---someone who is able to step outside of their culture and see into the hearts and minds of others who hate them ---a rare commodity amongst our present class of world leaders. Extremists on both sides are driving this human catastrophe and to what end? To be a civilian caught in the middle of this, what a horror ---no place to go, no power to do anything about the warring factions, and no life realistic life goals."
COMMENT: "Did anyone here read the article? The cease-fire seems to have been bogus from the get-go:
Regarding the suspected capture of a soldier on Friday, Amos Yadlin, a former chief of Israel’s military intelligence directorate, said, “I think that what happened here is that the details of the cease-fire were not sufficiently clarified.” In an interview with Israel Radio he said that the Israeli military will not leave Gaza until it completes its effort to demolish tunnels, even during a ceasefire. “It is not completely clear to me if this was clear to Hamas,” he said. (He) also said it was possible that the militants who emerged from the tunnel on Friday were cut off and did not know of the cease-fire.
So Israel continued its campaign "even during a cease-fire". Its interesting that it's Israeli media that points that out."
COMMENT: "An attempted kidnapping 90 minutes after the cease fire is to go into effect clearly violates the cease fire. But it is an isolated incident involving a single Israeli soldier whose present condition is unknown -- for all anyone knows, he may have escaped to safety. IMO, this is the sort of incident that the Israelis could choose to overlook, hoping the cease fire otherwise holds. The fact the Netanyahu's office calls this a blatant violation and retaliates by killing 14 Palestinians makes clear to me that Israel's interest in a cease fire remains marginal, at best."
COMMENT: "Benni Morris, one of the preeminent Israeli historians and an expert on the history of the founding of Israel points out that three of Israel's prime ministers were members of terrorist organization and these organizations specifically targeted civilians. That was in 1948 and their cause was the formation of a Jewish state. Did that justify the murder of hundreds of Palestinians? You decide.
While no one wants to see this wanton destruction of human life continue, it's important to recognize this history of violence on both sides and see the means to move beyond it.
Hamas has said that they will not recognize Israel, but they would be part of a government that did, as long as that government reflected the will of the Palestinian people. Israel is a state and has the most powerful army in the region. The Palestinians have nothing but a small territory under military occupation and Gaza under military embargo. The solution to this violence lies in the creation of a viable Palestinian state, now, not five years if the ever increasing number of conditions demanded by Netanyahu are met. Short of that they will continue to resist, just as the Jewish forces were determined to wage war until Israel was established."
COMMENT: "At least part of the problem here is that we are content with false peace. It is not peace when both sides are building up military assets, tunnels and rockets, while also isolating each other and issuing hateful propaganda.
Also, world opinion allows both sides to appeal to outsiders rather than appeal to each other. We are at least 50% of the problem here whether we like it or not.
Peace exists when both sides want peace to exist. When both sides believe that there is a process through which justice is achieved much of the time and that injustice is not systemic. When both sides believe they can [live] with the other and not only at the expense of the other.
Peace exists when we no longer use the term "both sides" because "us" and "them" is no longer relevant.
Until these things change, there will not be peace. At best there will be a temporary quieting of hostilities."
COMMENT: "Even if every Israeli argument about its need to defend itself is true and even if Hamas' continued launching of missiles into Israel is the underlying cause of the current fighting, a strategy which kills nearly 1500 civilians is untenable. At some point, the sheer immorality of killing civilians in such numbers has to be as important a factor in Israel's response to Hamas as is defense against the missiles. It doesn't even matter if Hamas really is using the civilians as "human shields." That does not justify killing the shields just because those using them can be blamed. They are innocent people who are dead, no matter what. Israel must rethink its policy in light of moral considerations instead of political ones."
COMMENT: "Well said. Israeli insensitivity to the misery of Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza seems every day more monstrous. As does the shock Israelis express when Palestinians in both regions target civilians, this being a basic feature of radically asymmetrical warfare whenever conflicts of this kind erupt.
What do you expect us to do? each side says, seemingly unaware that their opponent has equally urgent reasons for framing that question.
There is an almost remarkable inability, on both sides, to come to terms with the misery each has inflicted on the other. The insularity, and inhumanity, of both sides is the most telling feature of this interminable conflict."
COMMENT: "Israel needs a neighbor that recognizes its right to exist and acts accordingly. Gaza needs concessions that will allow it economic and political autonomy. The confrontation here makes it ever less likely that either side will advance its self interests. In a sense, both sides have donned suicide vests and are doing their best to assure that the other side goes down while they themselves go down. And you thought the U.S. government was dysfunctional."
COMMENT: " 'The game itself is so rigged that it is absurd to expect any human being with self-respect to feel that they should play by a set of rules that have led them into the reality they live in.'
Exactly right. One of the most disheartening features of this conflict is the widespread tendency to cite instances of Palestinian aggression as evidence of some deeper sickness in the culture, or in Islam. The Palestinians are behaving as people have historically behaved when placed in desperate circumstances. Launching rockets on civilian populations is both morally indefensible and utterly predictable. That Israelis continue to be genuinely outraged by it just seems to me to be evidence of a dangerous insularity in their thinking about this conflict."
COMMENT: "In order to end war you can only make peace with your enemy. Hamas is determined to end the blockade/siege of Gaza along with fighting for the creation of a Palestinian nation state including Gaza, the West Bank and East Jerusalem. Along with the return of Palestinians living in exile to these lands and Israel.
Hamas is no more a terrorist organization than were Irgun, Stern Gang/Lehi and Haganah/Palmach. Hamas is no more a terrorist organization than is the Israel Defense Force which succeeded these entities. All of these entities were deemed freedom fighters. Either they are all freedom fighters or all terrorist organizations.
Neither Gaza, nor the West Bank nor East Jerusalem are nation states with people created equal by a Creator with certain unalienable rights including life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Because of the Israeli occupation, blockade/siege and exile. And Palestinian Israeli's are 2nd class citizens in the nation state of Jewish people. Israel is no more a democracy than were Jim Crow America or apartheid South Africa.
There are between 4 and 4.5 million Palestinians living in these lands. There are thus about 70-80 times as many Americans. With 1400 dead that would be between 100-115,000 dead Americans. And with 6000 wounded that would be the equivalent of 420-480, 000 Americans. There would be between 10-24,000 dead American women and children.
A one state civil secular egalitarian plural democracy is the only just solution."
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Tyger
Paranormal Adept
This breaks one's heart. I have felt the same way - and he knows more than I do. None of this should be happening. The US has it in it's power to say 'no'. This blood is on our hands if we do not tell Israel - 'Enough!" If we could do that, the world would breath a collective sigh of relief.
michaelangel1453
Skilled Investigator
I'll keep it brief. Exact same article. Only difference is a coupla hundred more comments and many many more recommends. Just checked again.
I incorporated these into my analysis, examining readers picks, etc.
The Times isn't Russia Today. One of largest papers in world. Readership very very liberal. But they keep the paper honest. I like the Times, been subscriber for years. Reasoned comments from a readership which holds Israel to high standards.
But comments dramatically (to use a lowball euphemism, real word much starker) in favor of Israel, condemnatory of Hamas. People aren't stupid on Times.
Our jury system puts crooks in prison, or exonerates them, using twelve. This sample from one article uses thousands of comments and recommends. The verdict is Hamas guilty and Israel having a clear right to defend itself the way it's doing.
I read Times thoroughly every day. The pattern persists.
I incorporated these into my analysis, examining readers picks, etc.
The Times isn't Russia Today. One of largest papers in world. Readership very very liberal. But they keep the paper honest. I like the Times, been subscriber for years. Reasoned comments from a readership which holds Israel to high standards.
But comments dramatically (to use a lowball euphemism, real word much starker) in favor of Israel, condemnatory of Hamas. People aren't stupid on Times.
Our jury system puts crooks in prison, or exonerates them, using twelve. This sample from one article uses thousands of comments and recommends. The verdict is Hamas guilty and Israel having a clear right to defend itself the way it's doing.
I read Times thoroughly every day. The pattern persists.
Tyger
Paranormal Adept
Again, the events in the article I linked had not occurred when supposedly referenced. But then there was no effort made to link so the point cannot be argued.
You have to actually read the article and the comments to be aware that there is not a pro-Israel stance with this article. Quite the reverse - Hamas' dilemma - and victimization - is openly acknowledged.
You have to actually read the article and the comments to be aware that there is not a pro-Israel stance with this article. Quite the reverse - Hamas' dilemma - and victimization - is openly acknowledged.
michaelangel1453
Skilled Investigator
I reiterate the accuracy of my analysis. It's simple fact. The people through comments and recommends have spoken.
I've also been keeping a finger on the pulse of comments on other what can fairly be called reasonable mainstream publications. Not Russia Today.
I've mentioned yahoo news comments, which have a decidedly more Mad Max in the Thunderdome quality, and it can be fairly stated in general terms that its commenters come from a different demographic than those on the Times. But very inaccurate to say they aren't very articulate and knowledgeable.
Among literally many many thousands of comments on articles about this situation, the clear and overwhelming verdict from this jury on yahoo is hugely one of Hamas guilty as charged. I'm sorry to tell our gentle posters that Israel has not even been issued an arrest warrant.
These are, while obviously not analyses that go to mathematically anal lengths, as I've said before I have carefully crunched numbers.
i think it's important to listen to the opinions of my fellow men and women, and the people do speak and verdicts have been clearly rendered.
I notice the tenor having changed even more in Israel's favor since Hamas's vehement condemnation today by Obama and Kerry.
Facts speak, people ain't stupid, verdicts delivered.
I've also been keeping a finger on the pulse of comments on other what can fairly be called reasonable mainstream publications. Not Russia Today.
I've mentioned yahoo news comments, which have a decidedly more Mad Max in the Thunderdome quality, and it can be fairly stated in general terms that its commenters come from a different demographic than those on the Times. But very inaccurate to say they aren't very articulate and knowledgeable.
Among literally many many thousands of comments on articles about this situation, the clear and overwhelming verdict from this jury on yahoo is hugely one of Hamas guilty as charged. I'm sorry to tell our gentle posters that Israel has not even been issued an arrest warrant.
These are, while obviously not analyses that go to mathematically anal lengths, as I've said before I have carefully crunched numbers.
i think it's important to listen to the opinions of my fellow men and women, and the people do speak and verdicts have been clearly rendered.
I notice the tenor having changed even more in Israel's favor since Hamas's vehement condemnation today by Obama and Kerry.
Facts speak, people ain't stupid, verdicts delivered.