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Global Warming Happy Fun-Time

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recap... Muadib does not think the sun is a major factor in warming the planet, CO2 is not good for plant life and climate change is apparently something new and caused by humans.

Keep on reaching, you wouldn't have much to debate otherwise. You can twist my words all you want, it just makes you look like an ass. Like I said about 5 pages ago, when you can falsify my position with an actual model that explains the decades of data that point to global warming being caused by humans, give me a call and I'll listen to what you have to say, until then, I'll take my scientific information from real climate scientists who know what they're doing and have a position that's supported by years of data and backed up by peer review. Skepticism isn't a bad thing, denialism in the face of years and years of data and a giant consensus is a bad thing. All you do is throw out over 9,000 theories that were considered and then discarded long ago, to try and muddy the waters and you call that the scientific method? Are you really this retarded or are you just joking around with me? I can't tell anymore.
 
By the way, way to dodge the questions. I've admitted that my side could, in fact, be wrong. So are you going to admit that they could be right? Or is that impossible for you because you're so emotionally wrapped up in global warming being some big conspiracy scam?
 
I love the conclusions you jump to. Show me where I said that humans or CO2 are evil. I'll wait. And before you say it's implied I'll just disagree with you, is fire evil for burning? No, because that's what it's created to do, humans are simply living and AGW is a by product of that living, it doesn't make anyone evil, we just need to change the way we do certain things.

If that paper does in fact, debunk AGW for good, contrary to what you think, I'll be happy. One less thing we have to worry about. I'm not emotionally attached to the notion of AGW at all, whatsoever. However, what does that say about the huge conspiracy you propose if it can in fact be debunked by one paper? Must not be a conspiracy.

We'll have to wait and see who's right. Until they prove otherwise, like I've said before, I'll take my information from the vast majority of climate scientists.
 
If you agree and know anything at all about the AGW scam you would know that everything is based on human caused CO2 being the primary culprit in global cooling/global warming/climate change/ global climate disruption or whatever they have named it now.
your ignorance is really showing thru and it is best that you keep quiet now and silently back away from something you know very little about.
 
If you agree and know anything at all about the AGW scam you would know that everything is based on human caused CO2 being the primary culprit in global cooling/global warming/climate change/ global climate disruption or whatever they have named it now.
your ignorance is really showing thru and it is best that you keep quiet now and silently back away from something you know very little about.

Read my post you idiot, your thickheadedness is really starting to get annoying. I'll spell it out slowly for you, here we go: CO2 is a byproduct of humans, humans are just living, it doesn't make either CO2 or humans evil. Nobody is debating that it's been presented as the primary culprit. Why is that so hard to get through to your conspiracy laden, tiny mind? The only one who's ignorance is showing is you, not to mention your usual lack of reading comprehension. I guess anything that doesn't fit into the simplistic way you view the world must be tossed. Not to mention, one study does not make or break anything.
 
let me spell it out for you.... HUMAN caused CO2 is the foundation for the AGW movement that says it is causing catastrophic global warming... READ your IPCC reports! the IPCC is presenting CO2 as THEE primary culprit. btw- CO2 is NOT solely a human byproduct! Why is this so hard for you to understand since you supposedly know so much about it?!?
 
let me spell it out for you.... HUMAN caused CO2 is the foundation for the AGW movement that says it is causing catastrophic global warming... READ your IPCC reports! the IPCC is presenting CO2 as THEE primary culprit. btw- CO2 is NOT solely a human byproduct! Why is this so hard for you to understand since you supposedly know so much about it?!?

Holy shit what don't you understand about what I just said in my last post. I'll make it real big for you: I'M NOT DEBATING THAT YOU MORON. What I said was, that doesn't make it evil. It's a byproduct of humans living on this planet, it doesn't make humans evil, it doesn't make CO2 evil. Bad for the environment, yes, but not evil. Does that clear it up for you? Learn to read for christ sake. And I never said that CO2 was SOLELY a human by product, fucking A, do I have to spell every single thing out for you like I'm talking to a 6 year old? Jesus. You're starting to show exactly how dense you really are
 
Muadib thinks he knows what he is blathering on and on about but he has proven time and time again that he should not even be in this discussion because he doesnt even know what the CAGW crowd is crying about.
 
Muadib thinks he knows what he is blathering on and on about but he has proven time and time again that he should not even be in this discussion because he doesnt even know what the CAGW crowd is crying about.

Jesus dude, you really are dumb. I'm just in awe about how little you actually are able to comprehend about what I'm saying. It's hilarious.
 
We can bring this down a notch? Maybe...
The Global Warming Phenom does appear to be happening. So, naturally we have some questions.
Here are some questions I ask in order to put some perspective on the bigger issue of Global Warming:
1.) If the Earth is warming what are the other planets in our Solar System doing?
2.) Are Solar Cycles affecting the Earth and how?
3.) What are the historical effects of Global Warming?
4.) What are the historical effects of high or higher CO2 levels and what were those levels?
5.) What are the historical levels of CO2 and in what way do we think that affected the Earth’s climate? (Almost the same as Question 4)
6.) Is Global Warming caused by rising CO2 or is rising CO2 caused by Global Warming? (I like this one)
7.) Is Global warming bad?
8.) Is Global cooling bad?
9.) What would be worse Global Cooling or Global Warming? (My guess is that global cooling would be bad)
10.) What in the hell is Ben & Jerry's "Fish" Ice Cream? (Just tossed that one in there because I'm curious)
11.) Are the CO2 levels directly affected by specific human activity?
12.) If so (Question 11), what can we do about how we treat our planet in regards to stabilizing atmospheric conditions?
13.) What other "things" can cause CO2 levels to rise other than humans polluting?
There are more questions, but before I peruse other areas of scientific discovery let us address and most probably debate these first few questions.
I eagerly await some responses.

Many Thanks.

Very nice list Jaxx.

I have no answers for you other than the weather here is out of control.
 
i am in awe that YOU are unable to comprehend what YOU are saying.

btw you have not debated yet. you have only copy pasted crap that has been debunked long ago. I asked you several questions in order to actually start a debate with you but you ignored the questions. would you like to debate one on one or continue to spit and sputter and piss your pants?
 
i am in awe that YOU are unable to comprehend what YOU are saying.

btw you have not debated yet. you have only copy pasted crap that has been debunked long ago. I asked you several questions in order to actually start a debate with you but you ignored the questions. would you like to debate one on one or continue to spit and sputter and piss your pants?

Maybe you're confused about how actual debates work. It's like this, I post something, you have to prove that it was debunked. Like I've done with every one of your 9,000 theories that you've postulated for global warming. Show how it was debunked, show the source and show the specific points that were debunked. You haven't done any of that, and you've ignored my questions same as I've ignored yours. Where's your alternative model to explain the data that points to human made global warming? You don't have one, so please stop pretending you've won something here. You've done nothing but offer your opinion and 9,000 theories that were discarded long ago. The only thing I'm getting angry about is your jumping to stupid conclusions and trying to twist my words. It's like arguing with a semi retarded 6 year old.

In the end, I couldn't care less what you believe. You presented yourself as some giant font of knowledge on global warming, and yet you've presented nothing. You have nothing to teach me and continuing to debate you is as pointless as debating a Muslim on whether or not Allah exists. You're definitely not going to convince me and I obviously have not convinced you. All I'm doing now is providing the counter argument to the stupidity that continues to be posted in this thread, like the guy who said the paper from 2007 was the greatest presentation on global warming ever, ROFL.
 
The Conversion of a Climate-Change Skeptic

By RICHARD A. MULLER

Published: July 28, 2012

CALL me a converted skeptic. Three years ago I identified problems in previous climate studies that, in my mind, threw doubt on the very existence of global warming. Last year, following an intensive research effort involving a dozen scientists, I concluded that global warming was real and that the prior estimates of the rate of warming were correct. I’m now going a step further: Humans are almost entirely the cause.
My total turnaround, in such a short time, is the result of careful and objective analysis by the Berkeley Earth Surface Temperature project, which I founded with my daughter Elizabeth. Our results show that the average temperature of the earth’s land has risen by two and a half degrees Fahrenheit over the past 250 years, including an increase of one and a half degrees over the most recent 50 years. Moreover, it appears likely that essentially all of this increase results from the human emission of greenhouse gases.
These findings are stronger than those of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, the United Nations group that defines the scientific and diplomatic consensus on global warming. In its 2007 report, the I.P.C.C. concluded only that most of the warming of the prior 50 years could be attributed to humans. It was possible, according to the I.P.C.C. consensus statement, that the warming before 1956 could be because of changes in solar activity, and that even a substantial part of the more recent warming could be natural.
Our Berkeley Earth approach used sophisticated statistical methods developed largely by our lead scientist, Robert Rohde, which allowed us to determine earth land temperature much further back in time. We carefully studied issues raised by skeptics: biases from urban heating (we duplicated our results using rural data alone), from data selection (prior groups selected fewer than 20 percent of the available temperature stations; we used virtually 100 percent), from poor station quality (we separately analyzed good stations and poor ones) and from human intervention and data adjustment (our work is completely automated and hands-off). In our papers we demonstrate that none of these potentially troublesome effects unduly biased our conclusions.
The historic temperature pattern we observed has abrupt dips that match the emissions of known explosive volcanic eruptions; the particulates from such events reflect sunlight, make for beautiful sunsets and cool the earth’s surface for a few years. There are small, rapid variations attributable to El Niño and other ocean currents such as the Gulf Stream; because of such oscillations, the “flattening” of the recent temperature rise that some people claim is not, in our view, statistically significant. What has caused the gradual but systematic rise of two and a half degrees? We tried fitting the shape to simple math functions (exponentials, polynomials), to solar activity and even to rising functions like world population. By far the best match was to the record of atmospheric carbon dioxide, measured from atmospheric samples and air trapped in polar ice.
Just as important, our record is long enough that we could search for the fingerprint of solar variability, based on the historical record of sunspots. That fingerprint is absent. Although the I.P.C.C. allowed for the possibility that variations in sunlight could have ended the “Little Ice Age,” a period of cooling from the 14th century to about 1850, our data argues strongly that the temperature rise of the past 250 years cannot be attributed to solar changes. This conclusion is, in retrospect, not too surprising; we’ve learned from satellite measurements that solar activity changes the brightness of the sun very little.
How definite is the attribution to humans? The carbon dioxide curve gives a better match than anything else we’ve tried. Its magnitude is consistent with the calculated greenhouse effect — extra warming from trapped heat radiation. These facts don’t prove causality and they shouldn’t end skepticism, but they raise the bar: to be considered seriously, an alternative explanation must match the data at least as well as carbon dioxide does. Adding methane, a second greenhouse gas, to our analysis doesn’t change the results. Moreover, our analysis does not depend on large, complex global climate models, the huge computer programs that are notorious for their hidden assumptions and adjustable parameters. Our result is based simply on the close agreement between the shape of the observed temperature rise and the known greenhouse gas increase.
It’s a scientist’s duty to be properly skeptical. I still find that much, if not most, of what is attributed to climate change is speculative, exaggerated or just plain wrong. I’ve analyzed some of the most alarmist claims, and my skepticism about them hasn’t changed.
Hurricane Katrina cannot be attributed to global warming. The number of hurricanes hitting the United States has been going down, not up; likewise for intense tornadoes. Polar bears aren’t dying from receding ice, and the Himalayan glaciers aren’t going to melt by 2035. And it’s possible that we are currently no warmer than we were a thousand years ago, during the “Medieval Warm Period” or “Medieval Optimum,” an interval of warm conditions known from historical records and indirect evidence like tree rings. And the recent warm spell in the United States happens to be more than offset by cooling elsewhere in the world, so its link to “global” warming is weaker than tenuous.
The careful analysis by our team is laid out in five scientific papers now online at BerkeleyEarth.org. That site also shows our chart of temperature from 1753 to the present, with its clear fingerprint of volcanoes and carbon dioxide, but containing no component that matches solar activity. Four of our papers have undergone extensive scrutiny by the scientific community, and the newest, a paper with the analysis of the human component, is now posted, along with the data and computer programs used. Such transparency is the heart of the scientific method; if you find our conclusions implausible, tell us of any errors of data or analysis.
What about the future? As carbon dioxide emissions increase, the temperature should continue to rise. I expect the rate of warming to proceed at a steady pace, about one and a half degrees over land in the next 50 years, less if the oceans are included. But if China continues its rapid economic growth (it has averaged 10 percent per year over the last 20 years) and its vast use of coal (it typically adds one new gigawatt per month), then that same warming could take place in less than 20 years.
Science is that narrow realm of knowledge that, in principle, is universally accepted. I embarked on this analysis to answer questions that, to my mind, had not been answered. I hope that the Berkeley Earth analysis will help settle the scientific debate regarding global warming and its human causes. Then comes the difficult part: agreeing across the political and diplomatic spectrum about what can and should be done.

From: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/30/opinion/the-conversion-of-a-climate-change-skeptic.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&ref=general&src=me
 
I do have some concerns a lot of this is a scam.

For example the whole world is looking at carbon taxes as a way of saving the planet, and yet

A United Nations report has identified the world's rapidly growing herds of cattle as the greatest threat to the climate
Cow 'emissions' more damaging to planet than CO2 from cars - Climate Change - Environment - The Independent

Wheres the burger tax ?

If cows are the greatest threat, why is the tax on coal powered electricty generators etc ?

Again the whole point of the exercise seems to be about taking money from joe public, not saving the planet.

Put a tax on cows and people will just stop eating beef, they can avoid the tax by choice.
Not so with electricity, everyone uses it, and cant really do without it, no way to dodge paying

The greatest source of greenhouse gas emissions is cows

But if they tax that, the beef industry will be wiped out, and people can avoid the tax by not eating beef. Of course this would also remove the greatest threat.......

When you look at the big picture, the environment gets nothing Its all about parting a fool with his money.
 
I do have some concerns a lot of this is a scam.

For example the whole world is looking at carbon taxes as a way of saving the planet, and yet


Cow 'emissions' more damaging to planet than CO2 from cars - Climate Change - Environment - The Independent

Wheres the burger tax ?

If cows are the greatest threat, why is the tax on coal powered electricty generators etc ?

Again the whole point of the exercise seems to be about taking money from joe public, not saving the planet.

Put a tax on cows and people will just stop eating beef, they can avoid the tax by choice.
Not so with electricity, everyone uses it, and cant really do without it, no way to dodge paying

The greatest source of greenhouse gas emissions is cows

But if they tax that, the beef industry will be wiped out, and people can avoid the tax by not eating beef. Of course this would also remove the greatest threat.......

When you look at the big picture, the environment gets nothing Its all about parting a fool with his money.
Do Cow Farts Cause Global Warming?


Bovine Flatulence--Threat or Menace?

iStock_cowsnoutSmall.jpg
Cows can digest things we can't, especially including the cellulose in grass and grain. They do this by maintaining cultures of microorganisms in their complicated series of "stomachs" that can break down cellulose. The cows then digest the microbes and the sugars and fatty acids they produce.

(Brief overview of ruminant digestion here. If you are interested in delving into the digestive physiology of ruminants in more detail, start here.)

Some of these microbes produce methane (CH4). Some of the other microbes can use that methane as food, but a certain amount of it escapes as belches or farts (mostly belches). (Some people have microbes in their guts which produce methane, and thus their farts also contain methane--but nothing compared to the amount cows produce.)

The publication Emissions of Greenhouse Gases in the United States 2006 (pdf) summarizes the total greenhouse gas output of the US:

co2epie.jpg
Of the 605 million metric tonnes CO2 equivalent of methane shown in the graph, about 115 million tonnes CO2e is from "livestock enteric fermentation"--mostly cow burps and farts. That is less than 20% of the methane load, and less than 2% of the 7 billion tonne CO2e total.

Of course raising cattle causes other greenhouse gas emissions.
  • There are about 56 million tonnes CO2e of methane and 55 million tonnes CO2e of nitrogen oxides released from cattle wastes as they decompose. (Some of that methane can be captured and used to generate electricity or heat, while releasing carbon dioxide, a much less potent greenhouse gas.)
  • About 227 million tonnes CO2e of nitrous oxide is released from nitrogen fertilization of soils (30% of it from nitrogen fixed by the crops themselves, not from industrially produced fertilizers).
  • Most of the nitrogen fertilizer used on crops (89%) is used on corn (maize). About half of the corn produced in the US is fed to livestock, a large fraction to cattle, especially dairy cows. So about 50 million tonnes CO2e emissions associated with fertilizer use should be indirectly blamed on cows.
  • (Another large fraction of corn is used to make ethanol as a motor fuel, indirectly causing the release of significant amounts of greenhouse gases in the corn production. But that's another story.)
So cattle are responsible for about 3.5% of US greenhouse gas emissions, on a CO2 equivalent basis. To keep this in perspective:
  • 2% of greenhouse gas production is in the form of methane from garbage decomposing in landfills.
  • Roughly 2% is chlorofluorocarbons (CFCs) from air conditioners, refrigerators and industrial processes.
  • Other industrial processes (especially cement manufacture) produce about 2%.
  • Burning jet fuel accounts for more than 3%.
  • 12% of greenhouse gas emissions are CO2 emitted generating electricity which is used in residential applications like lighting, TVs, computers, and refrigerators.
  • 17% came from burning gasoline in cars and trucks.
So cow farts and burps do contribute some to greenhouse gases, and thus to global climate change. But they are not a major cause. Nonetheless, improvements in fertilizer use and waste management in agriculture could reduce the cow-related burden on our atmosphere.

Reduced consumption of beef and dairy products would probably have little effect. (If half of US consumers cut their consumption of beef and dairy products in half -- and the resulting drop in prices didn't stimulate the other half to increase their consumption, or drive more exports -- it would reduce national greenhouse gas emissions by about 1%.) Maybe this will become more of an issue in the future.
 
Not to mention that article was from 2006, no surprise 6 years later it doesn't stand up.

As far as carbon tax goes, I agree it's a terrible idea, it would do more to fatten government pockets than it would to save the planet. There are better solutions out there.
 
Makes me wonder though, i saw an episode of Mythbusters a few days ago that made the same claim as the article i linked to.
That being Cows are the worst offenders when it comes to greenhouse gases.

Now the stats are "different" ?

What changed ?

In this episode they measured the gases from one cow and multiplied that by the cows in existance, simple enough math, and no doubt the same process the UN used

Livestock are responsible for 18 per cent of the greenhouse gases that cause global warming, more than cars, planes and all other forms of transport put together.

Either the initial calculations were wrong, or the stats have been massaged to justify the carbon taxes headed our way.

If livestock cause global warming, more than cars, planes and all other forms of transport put together, why isnt that being addressed ?
Why do the new stats point the finger back at the very stuff we are getting gouged over ?

And my original point still stands, if the PTB are as worried about greenhouse gases and climate change as they claim to be, why not tax beef/meat as well as carbon polluters ?

People could avoid the tax by avoiding beef, the beef industry would collapse, with a drop in demand would come a drop in supply and thus a drop in the gases emitted.

It makes perfect sense to target this issue, but they havent

Is it because there is no money to be made in that scenario ?

Thus its no surprise to me that more recent stats divert away from livestock emission and back to the very things they want to charge us money for.

It smells like a con to me, dont get me wrong i'm all for best practise and saving the environment, but when i look at the whole global climate change issue it reeks of money making scam.
None of the measures introduced here in australia help the environment, in fact local population growth will swallow up any emissions savings, the net result for the environment is zilch.
10 years from now australia's carbon footprint will be bigger than it is today.

The Australian Government has stated an unconditional commitment to reduce greenhouse, gas emissions by five percent on year 2000 levels by 2020. However, in the absence of new abatement measures, Treasury led modelling indicates that Australia's emissions will grow from 553 million tonnes in 2000 to 774 million tonnes in 2020. This article disaggregates the Treasury modelling in order to estimate the contribution of population expansion to this growth. It shows that 83 per cent of the forecast increase in greenhouse emissions to 2020 will be attributable to population growth. The article concludes that it is very unlikely that Australia will achieve the five per cent reduction target by 2020 in the absence of attention to the population growth factor.

The reference case provides a measure of how difficult it will be to achieve any reduction at all on year 2000 greenhouse gas emission levels. Both the Labor Government and the Coalition opposition are committed to maximising Australia's per capita economic growth and neither have shown any inclination to challenge Australia's current high rate of population growth.

Population growth and Australia's 2020 greenhouse gas emission commitments. - Free Online Library

We can put whatever spin we like on this the result is clear, in 2020 the environment will be getting more carbon than it does now, the "tax" does not reduce carbon emissions.

They could legislate policy that actually makes a real change, but instead have opted for policys that make them money.

The root cause of this global warming "crisis" is humans, and population growth
Baby bonus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And yet here in australia we pay you a baby bonus to have more children.

Actions speak louder than words, It cant be much of a "crisis" if all they are doing about it, is using it as an excuse to tax us.

When i look at this big picture, it reeks of a scam to me
 
Maybe you're confused about how actual debates work. It's like this, I post something, you have to prove that it was debunked. Like I've done with every one of your 9,000 theories that you've postulated for global warming. Show how it was debunked, show the source and show the specific points that were debunked. You haven't done any of that, and you've ignored my questions same as I've ignored yours. Where's your alternative model to explain the data that points to human made global warming? You don't have one, so please stop pretending you've won something here. You've done nothing but offer your opinion and 9,000 theories that were discarded long ago. The only thing I'm getting angry about is your jumping to stupid conclusions and trying to twist my words. It's like arguing with a semi retarded 6 year old.

In the end, I couldn't care less what you believe. You presented yourself as some giant font of knowledge on global warming, and yet you've presented nothing. You have nothing to teach me and continuing to debate you is as pointless as debating a Muslim on whether or not Allah exists. You're definitely not going to convince me and I obviously have not convinced you. All I'm doing now is providing the counter argument to the stupidity that continues to be posted in this thread, like the guy who said the paper from 2007 was the greatest presentation on global warming ever, ROFL.
maybe you should read links i have posted. you have the burden of proof. it is your camp that claims humans are causing catastrophic global warming. your data points at nothing because your data has been proven to be tainted, manipulated, exaggerated and enhanced. you have absolutely nothing scientific to give us. zip.
 
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