James Carrion, Ghost Rockets, Roswell & the Hole in Ufology's Bucket

[Burnt State]

James, I think it is interesting that you named those four cases as worthy of digging deeper into and I assume it's because you have reason to believe that they are all connected in some way.
...
Why do you think someone would feel compelled to come up with off planet invaders when we were worried that there was a commie lurking on every corner ?

Do you think there would be such a thing as UFOlogy if these cases were never conceived from the get go?

Wade, it's an interesting line of thinking and this question is for you, as much as it is a follow up to James on the show,

Q. Why Maury Island as a focus point as it is the obvious hoax? It has some sloppy elements in the manipulation of Arnold's experience. "You are being watched and overheard," he is told repeatedly. It's not a covert operation, but a manufactured one from start to finish, and a messy one at best. So how does it actually connect to these other cases if they are in fact stemming from the same source?

 

[Open-Minded-Earthling]

Yes, that is possible and if Roswell was a part of a strategic deception operation, then keeping the saucer story alive in the media would be very important to that strategy.

Hope to learn more about connecting the dots with all these news stories and crashes/sightings, etc. Would like to hear as many logical scenarios as you can come-up with on the show. Obviously, several other people are very interested in these possibilities too. Thanks.

 

[Open-Minded-Earthling]

Wade, it's an interesting line of thinking and this question is for you, as much as it is a follow up to James on the show,

Q. Why Maury Island as a focus point as it is the obvious hoax? It has some sloppy elements in the manipulation of Arnold's experience. "You are being watched and overheard," he is told repeatedly. It's not a covert operation, but a manufactured one from start to finish, and a messy one at best. So how does it actually connect to these other cases if they are in fact stemming from the same source?

Just look at how much UFO mythology and science fiction got started as the root cause for "the investigations" of these events. I always have had strong suspicions whenever someone like Arnold sees the "skipping saucers", and then he is soon after investigating to write an article(s) about another UFO sighting with military involvement too! So, Palmer was a publisher of this UFO genre too as noted below. That region of the USA is also where major aircraft are manufactured, so connecting the dots to the story telling it certainly seems man made to appear "real".

[Obtained elsewhere online...]

Palmer contacted Arnold and asked him to investigate the incident for the story Arnold was writing for one of Palmer's publications (the FBI report states Palmer was the editor of the magazines Venture and Fantacy at this time, although both Venture Science Fiction Magazine and The Magazine of Fantasy and Science Fiction first appeared long after the incident. Palmer inaugurated the first issue of Fate magazine in January, 1948 with a cover featuring flying disks and the article he paid Kenneth Arnold to write.

Arnold flew from Boise, Idaho, to Tacoma and met with Crisman, Dahl and at least three military intelligence officers at the Winthrop Hotel there. During the meetings over several days, an unknown person (the FBI agent who wrote up the main report on the incident believed Crisman was the most likely suspect) began leaking details of the UFO sighting at Maury Island, the meeting in the hotel room and details of the conversation there to reporters at the Tacoma Times and at United Press, the latter reporter also working for Tacoma News Tribune. The anonymous caller also contacted the Seattle Post-Intelligencer and the Boise Statesman.

The two United States Army Air Corps investigating officers who arrived at Arnold's request, Captain William L. Davidson and Lietuenant Frank M. Brown of Army A-2 Intelligence, decided to fly back to Hamilton Field the same day they arrived in Tacoma after interviewing Crisman in the hotel room. Dahl had decided to leave, citing possible danger to himself if the story got out, presumably because of the warning he received from the man in black previously.

 

[Wade]

Wade, it's an interesting line of thinking and this question is for you, as much as it is a follow up to James on the show,

Q. Why Maury Island as a focus point as it is the obvious hoax? It has some sloppy elements in the manipulation of Arnold's experience. "You are being watched and overheard," he is told repeatedly. It's not a covert operation, but a manufactured one from start to finish, and a messy one at best. So how does it actually connect to these other cases if they are in fact stemming from the same source?

Well I wasn't thinking they came from the same source so much as that if these cases that James was looking at did pop up on his radar and ( as i later re edited my post to point out ) these four cases certainly did the get the ufo ball rolling, if james is looking at these because they involve human deception. ..that's my interpetation but it could be wrong...then there would seem to be an organized coordinated orchestrated attempt ( by various agencies ?) to pull the wool over our collective eyes. In regards to your question about Maury Island, maybe it just came down to some branches being more inept than others certainly they were treading new ground with what they were trying to pull off.

Or maybe it got started with the Orson Welles broadcast, I know today the current thinking is that the panic that ensued during the broadcast was over exaggerated but the thinking at the time was because of the coming storm clouds people were primed to be fearful of anything even invaders from Mars and didn't disappoint, i wonder if the military noticed and decided to try the same thing after world war 2 just substitute Hitler for Stalin.

I better stop posting now as I'm getting in trecherous waters, if this question doesn't make the show I am hoping and counting on Mr. Carrion to pick up where he left off. My guess is this thread will be filled with plenty more questions and the guys may be hard pressed to answer all the questions.

 

[Open-Minded-Earthling]

Something to consider about the Roswell debris is it was initially discovered by a rancher. I think the military can simply just be opportunistic too. These stories present themselves independently, but can easily be manipulated too both for the media money and hype and for military reasons too. Once the sightings start there is no stopping it. The reports will come flooding in without having to manufacture the propaganda. It's automatic. People begin seeing the flying objects within the new UFO flying concepts too.

 

[Heidi Lemmer]

Something to consider about the Roswell debris is it was initially discovered by a rancher. I think the military can simply just be opportunistic too. These stories present themselves independently, but can easily be manipulated too both for the media money and hype and for military reasons too. Once the sightings start there is no stopping it. The reports will come flooding in without having to manufacture the propaganda. It's automatic. People begin seeing the flying objects within the new UFO flying concepts too.

Too vague. Too much a broad swipe at every witness that comes forth honestly to report what they think is an odd occurrence in the sky. It's equivalent to taking the erasure across the history of many many intelligent men and women who have studied this field and continue to conclude it "unknown."

 

[Heidi Lemmer]

Well I wasn't thinking they came from the same source so much as that if these cases that James was looking at did pop up on his radar and ( as i later re edited my post to point out ) these four cases certainly did the get the ufo ball rolling, if james is looking at these because they involve human deception. ..that's my interpetation but it could be wrong...then there would seem to be an organized coordinated orchestrated attempt ( by various agencies ?) to pull the wool over our collective eyes. In regards to your question about Maury Island, maybe it just came down to some branches being more inept than others certainly they were treading new ground with what they were trying to pull off.

Or maybe it got started with the Orson Welles broadcast, I know today the current thinking is that the panic that ensued during the broadcast was over exaggerated but the thinking at the time was because of the coming storm clouds people were primed to be fearful of anything even invaders from Mars and didn't disappoint, i wonder if the military noticed and decided to try the same thing after world war 2 just substitute Hitler for Stalin.

I better stop posting now as I'm getting in trecherous waters, if this question doesn't make the show I am hoping and counting on Mr. Carrion to pick up where he left off. My guess is this thread will be filled with plenty more questions and the guys may be hard pressed to answer all the questions.

We think in terms of these popular cases but what about world wide? In the 1940's what else was going on in other areas of the world to counter balance the idea that the UFO myth was started here in the U.S?

 

[Burnt State]

We think in terms of these popular cases but what about world wide? In the 1940's what else was going on in other areas of the world to counter balance the idea that the UFO myth was started here in the U.S?

If you start at the turn of the century there are the airships, then not much of anything till the foo fighters, then ghost rockets, Arnold, and a handful of significant American events. Contactee culture is born in USA at the end of the 40's. Aimé Michel publishes in 58 about the French 54 wave and then we have isolated significant cases here and there globally - probably not much written about other cases, while it thrives in American culture, and cases continue to multiply through the 50's.

Wade brought up Welles' infamous broadcast in 38 which identifies two key elements: how paranoid American society can work itself up over foreign invaders from other planets, and how easy that paranoia can be manipulated.

There is a line of thinking that allows for a complete orchestration of a culture, masterfully manipulated by a clandestine set of powers with ulterior motives and then there is a less conspiracist way of seeing things that sees Ufology as a cultural collaboration, a product of witnesses, fame seekers, the curious researcher and media machine and those military powers who may respond to events as per need & manipulate and take advantage of the benefits of the UFO narrative.

Cultural psychology explodes into the 60's and now the story is unstoppable, and so are witness reports interationally. While the story gets written, and at times is made into myth, all the while there is a thread of unique cases that just don't seem to fit with the idea of local construction, but I suppose anything is possible. Myths can have a habit of coming to life under the right circumstances too.

 

[Burnt State]

Just look at how much UFO mythology and science fiction got started as the root cause for "the investigations" of these events. I always have had strong suspicions whenever someone like Arnold sees the "skipping saucers", and then he is soon after investigating to write an article(s) about another UFO sighting with military involvement too! So, Palmer was a publisher of this UFO genre too as noted below. That region of the USA is also where major aircraft are manufactured, so connecting the dots to the story telling it certainly seems man made to appear "real".

[Obtained elsewhere online...]

Palmer contacted Arnold and asked him to investigate the incident for the story Arnold was writing for one of Palmer's publications (the FBI report states Palmer was the editor of the magazines Venture and Fantacy at this time, although both Venture Science Fiction Magazine and The Magazine of Fantasy and Science Fiction first appeared long after the incident. Palmer inaugurated the first issue of Fate magazine in January, 1948 with a cover featuring flying disks and the article he paid Kenneth Arnold to write.

Arnold flew from Boise, Idaho, to Tacoma and met with Crisman, Dahl and at least three military intelligence officers at the Winthrop Hotel there. During the meetings over several days, an unknown person (the FBI agent who wrote up the main report on the incident believed Crisman was the most likely suspect) began leaking details of the UFO sighting at Maury Island, the meeting in the hotel room and details of the conversation there to reporters at the Tacoma Times and at United Press, the latter reporter also working for Tacoma News Tribune. The anonymous caller also contacted the Seattle Post-Intelligencer and the Boise Statesman.

The two United States Army Air Corps investigating officers who arrived at Arnold's request, Captain William L. Davidson and Lietuenant Frank M. Brown of Army A-2 Intelligence, decided to fly back to Hamilton Field the same day they arrived in Tacoma after interviewing Crisman in the hotel room. Dahl had decided to leave, citing possible danger to himself if the story got out, presumably because of the warning he received from the man in black previously.

It would have been hilarious if it turned out that Palmer had rented the room for Arnold in advance without telling him just to stir the pot, but I doubt it. Regardless, we're seeing some early foreshadowing of the Bennewitz case in the Maury Island affair - maybe it's sloppy because of the agents assigned to the case?

At the end of the day will it be uncovered that Crisman was just busy protecting the Merovingian line because he's some kind of rogue but loyal Knights Templar? With Ufology there are always many possibilities, and few straight lines that actually go anywhere.

But the media has played its role to be certain, a great propagator of stories and sighings.

 

[Heidi Lemmer]

If you start at the turn of the century there are the airships, then not much of anything till the foo fighters, then ghost rockets, Arnold, and a handful of significant American events. Contactee culture is born in USA at the end of the 40's. Aimé Michel publishes in 58 about the French 54 wave and then we have isolated significant cases here and there globally - probably not much written about other cases, while it thrives in American culture, and cases continue to multiply through the 50's.

Wade brought up Welles' infamous broadcast in 38 which identifies two key elements: how paranoid American society can work itself up over foreign invaders from other planets, and how easy that paranoia can be manipulated.

There is a line of thinking that allows for a complete orchestration of a culture, masterfully manipulated by a clandestine set of powers with ulterior motives and then there is a less conspiracist way of seeing things that sees Ufology as a cultural collaboration, a product of witnesses, fame seekers, the curious researcher and media machine and those military powers who may respond to events as per need & manipulate and take advantage of the benefits of the UFO narrative.

Cultural psychology explodes into the 60's and now the story is unstoppable, and so are witness reports interationally. While the story gets written, and at times is made into myth, all the while there is a thread of unique cases that just don't seem to fit with the idea of local construction, but I suppose anything is possible. Myths can have a habit of coming to life under the right circumstances too.

If you stay in that vague world anything is possible. Magic right out of a Harry Potter movie. It's what bothers me in the debunker world. Everything must always be ordinary and yet our history alone says nothing was ever ordinary. Every line drawn was crossed. Every final statement of truth seems to have an extension, exception and /or added. To the ghost rockets I still wonder , if I read right, there were over 2000 reports? Who has gone through those reports? Every thing so far of what I've found is just a statement of the reports clumped together. I'd like to know how similar they are to each other, how often within days of each other. Etc. Do we really have the documentation to countries such as Peru, Germany, Australia, India, etc. Can we really claim that individuals who've called in to Mufon or elsewhere we're subjected /influenced by culture or did they really see something odd? Another factor, not easily ignored....on every major public concern, terrorists, war, disease, poverty, racism, hate crimes, mafia, money scams....the government has put their foot in the door to influence the outcome..all of course with the intention of the benefit of mankind (LOL). So in that line of thinking, why wouldn't they do the same with UFO's?
Dunno, just rambling. lol

 

[Heidi Lemmer]

If you start at the turn of the century there are the airships, then not much of anything till the foo fighters, then ghost rockets, Arnold, and a handful of significant American events

We don't have all the data on this yet. Many , in fact most countries have not offered /released the data to their earliest recordings.

 

[Constance]

If you start at the turn of the century there are the airships, then not much of anything till the foo fighters, then ghost rockets, Arnold, and a handful of significant American events. Contactee culture is born in USA at the end of the 40's. Aimé Michel publishes in 58 about the French 54 wave and then we have isolated significant cases here and there globally - probably not much written about other cases, while it thrives in American culture, and cases continue to multiply through the 50's.

Burnt: 1939-1946, various locations:

Pre-1947 Chronology; 1939-1946

 

[Constance]

International ufo wave of 1954, maps and charts, much more . . .

Worldwide UFO Wave of 1954 Report

 

[Heidi Lemmer]

Burnt: 1939-1946, various locations:

Pre-1947 Chronology; 1939-1946

Exactly. And that's only the country's that have allowed these reports to filter out. lol, wonder how many sightings happen in North Korea?

 

[Constance]

The 1967 Wave, many planetary locations. chronology and map:

The 1967 UFO Chronology

 

[Constance]

Also see UFOCAT and the multiple links at the following page to Australian ufo data:

UFOs in Australia - UFO Evidence

There's much more out there but I gotta go to bed. Happy hunting.

 

[Constance]

ps: also see the Richard Haines and Dominique Weinstein databases of pilot reports referencing encounters around the planet. Haines's goes to 3,000+ at this point.

 

[kanakaris]

Can your provide a documented quote of what each person said? It's hard to comment on what someone "allegedly" said.

Really ? I thought you were writing a book on Roswell...

 

[Open-Minded-Earthling]

Another factor, not easily ignored....on every major public concern, terrorists, war, disease, poverty, [...] money scams....the government has put their foot in the door to influence the outcome..all of course with the intention of the benefit of mankind (LOL). So in that line of thinking, why wouldn't they do the same with UFO's?

It's not "the government". It is mostly special interest groups within and without government that influence these outcomes. With UFO's that's going to be mainly the Air Force and the MIC that supports and builds the aircraft, and, btw, those are the most guarded types of military secrets that need a lot of disinformation. Why? These fly in the sky! Other top secret military weapons are easily concealed or not needing "a cover". It is undeniably a fact, yes, a fact, that the Air Force is directly involved in the ET UFO mythology to willfully create disinformation and propaganda. Why do you think that is? Why do you think many of these insiders will talk all about ET UFO's, but then they shut-up and won't talk about top secret aircraft??? Why?

IF there are real ET UFO's, then it might be more likely to be USO's in the oceans. Why? Life needs water to begin or exist, as far as we know, and not many humans are on the surface of the oceans until recent decades. The problem with that theory is there are very few sightings to back-up that scenario, but if these are mostly underwater??? It is very well known that the Navy has placed listening devices in strategic areas in the oceans, so we've been listening for decades undersea. Now seriously, why don't you think there are a lot of stories going on about that??? Why? [See above about the Air Force.] The truth is we can't even find flight 370 in remote areas of the ocean, so if I was a UFO seeker or hunter that may be where the real action has always been. USO's.

The Air Force just loves, loves, people that buy into the belief about ET UFO's. They want to believe, so it's easy to do. They love people like that and want them around to think and talk about it too. It's part of their plan for cover. The more conspiratorial the better, especially, if that person can pull it off as seeming reasonable and sane about it too. Why do you think UFO's are now getting more attention as being triangular craft vs saucers? Think about it...

 

[James Carrion]

On Roswell , were Brig. General's Exon and DuBose lying when telling that Roswell was ET ?

Oh you mean Dubose's interview with Clark McClellan that I am supposed to believe is anything more than heresay?

" Since there was no recording of this interview and McClelland told me he no longer has his notes, no doubt many skeptics will dismiss the interview as being made up or exaggerated. I think it reasonable to question the exact quotations (similar to the style NICAP's Donald Keyhoe used in his books, for which he was also criticized) but the overall contents strike me as authentic"
From: Brig. Gen. Thomas Dubose

How far does "strike me as authentic" get anyone in a court of law?