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James Carrion, Ghost Rockets, Roswell & the Hole in Ufology's Bucket

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Chris is a huge believer in Ray Stanford's film/pics of UFO's. Chris, who has seen Ray's work, is convinced he has the smoking guns of Ufology. I think you live out East, and, if I'm not mistaken, Ray lives near DC now. I think Chris could arrange for you to meet and see Ray's work, since Chris is such good friends with Ray too. Ray must be in his seventies or older by now, so don't wait too long if you're interested.

Why not check it out??? Chris is a big time believer...

I think Ray did document on Super 8 film with his 10x lens in 1985 a NASA or military high-altitude test possibly of some new propulsion system. I don't think it's ET, but it seems to be interesting nonetheless.

I won't be investigating Ray's claims for one simple reason - time. I live in Virginia and have a day job and even if I was independently wealthy and didn't have to work or were comfortably retired with time on my hands, you would find me from 9 to 5 at the National Archives dutifully sorting through documents. The slice of UFO history and the cases I mentioned to be of interest from the 1946 - 1947 time frame are going to keep me very busy for a long time, even after books are written.

I forgot to add that I won't be waiting for a postcard in the mail to tell me where to go look in the archives...
 
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Every line drawn was crossed. Every final statement of truth seems to have an extension, exception and /or added. To the ghost rockets I still wonder , if I read right, there were over 2000 reports? Who has gone through those reports? Every thing so far of what I've found is just a statement of the reports clumped together. I'd like to know how similar they are to each other, how often within days of each other. Etc. Do we really have the documentation to countries such as Peru, Germany, Australia, India, etc. Can we really claim that individuals who've called in to Mufon or elsewhere we're subjected /influenced by culture or did they really see something odd?
The MIC and Air Force, PTB, want you to believe. They don't give a damn about science and analysis, and neither do the believers either. Vallee was promoting these ideas decades ago, for analysis, but no one in the UFO community has really stepped-up to do that. The UFO community is a religious group of believers or X-military with agendas. Science? Lol.

Face it, you're not going to get it in your lifetime, so just have your doubts and believe too. Otherwise, help out Vallee to get some analysis done, because it's going to take a sophisticated database and lots of data to do that. This can easily be done now, because there are databases developed after 911 that do sophisticated data relationship analysis. That could easily be applied to much of the reporting and data analysis you're thinking about. A lot of raw data is already available. There will never be funding for this from government, because the MIC and Air Force are controlling interests wayyyy wayyyy above your need to ever know. They love you just as you are in their sights. A Bullseye for disinformation and propaganda.

Very few ordinary people have had "real" life altering sightings of UFO's that are undeniably close range, but these are so few and far between even these people have not organized as a group. You'd better consider just how rare a real close encounter is that won't involve some sleep or hypnotic state of mind or nighttime. Name your case. Why do you think these just evaporate into thin air? Don't bring-up the military people. They can have agendas or mindsets, be part of psyops experiments, whether they consciously know it or not, in addition to secrecy agreements.
 
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I forgot to add that I won't be waiting for a postcard in the mail to tell me where to go look in the archives...
Look forward to learning more about that on the paracast or here. I vaguely recall knowing this sort of thing has happened, perhaps more often than understood, but often there wouldn't be a postcard. "They" know where you're looking to just plant it. Lol.
 
Burnt: 1939-1946, various locations:

Pre-1947 Chronology; 1939-1946
When you consider that the majority of these cases were entirely unknown beyond the scope of local publishing, or local gossip, we're still left in North America with very few key cases outside of WWII related cases (ghost rockets, foo fighters) and then there is a large dramatc unfolding as the waves ripple across N.America and beyond in the mid to late 40's, primarily in other WWII countries, who are also a source of initial sightings.

It's a trick to look backwards at the amalgamated cases that upholds its own narrative of events of people seeing: lights, balloons, cigar shapes, rockets, metallic foil shapes and some rectangles. What you do see here is a large amalgamated record of all manner of shapes and sizes, hallucinatory moments of sudden disappearing craft and humanoids in portholes or emerging out of discs underwater to frighten children in Russia.
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This is a record of chaos, with very few radar confirmed cases, and many of these, when researched, have no basis in the actual record, and so you can not read these cases like an encyclopedia of facts but a loose assemblage of witness reports, some far more intriguing than others, but very few that you would pin down as part of a factual catalogue of hardcore cases. The repetition of witness accounts may have its own value, but is alive only in the memory of the witness and no where else. It effectively reduces a heavy chunk of UFO "reports" to folklore. And in a time of chaos (WWII) myths are readily witnessed, defined and redefined.

So, back in America we do so see that different figures are knowingly and unknowingly collaborating on building the national fear of Flying Saucer Attack, in a public readily fueled by paranoia. This narrative has very deep roots in North American Culture as seen in the many decades of sci fi film and fiction that consolidate the narrative. Cultural familiarity with space brothers in the 1950's demonstrates how well woven the narrative is into the fabric of North America. The sociological effects are immense before we even leave the 50's era of sightings and they play a role for the PTB for certain.
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But, what is interesting, when we look backwards through the records and collect these odd pieces found in global reports here and there, is the sheer scope of it all. Reports are dynamic, filled with humanoids, portholes, discs landing on the ground, seen underwater, at high altitude and they come in all shapes and sizes. This is its own perplexing conundrum: are people seeing what is actually there or are their minds active participants in a co-creative process? I think the latter has much to do with it all, as does the cultural setting and context of the witness themselves. We have so much info on what was seen but so little info on who did the seeing. The witness is the critical factor, still present after the sighting and they're the ones that should be studied in more depth otherwise we run the risk of UFO's getting reduced to folklore, which it has on numerous fronts.
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But back to those hardcore cases, and case variety in this early era of reporting: what is one to do with the dynamic diversity of craft shape and actions? Critics could say that it is simply because it's all happening in the mind, but for those who believe something much more suspicious is taking place, something not human. Then you are left with having to contend with first the tricksterish nature of such reports (which may also cycle back to human psychology and sociology) and beyond that, contend with the fact that an outside agent, that appears to be a non-human intelligence, is purposefully screwing with us in highly theatrical manners for reasons still unknown. Quite often they seem to be drawing water or sampling soil, but that image appears to be for our own benefit at best. It's a head trip for sure.
 
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We think in terms of these popular cases but what about world wide? In the 1940's what else was going on in other areas of the world to counter balance the idea that the UFO myth was started here in the U.S?


The thing is Heidi (and I'm not being a smart ass when I say this ) I'm not even sure what I believe or think. I will say that I'm about 1/2 of the way through a whole series of books written by Robert Bartholomew...whom i'd like to see on the Paracast...and even though it's not a new phenomenon these books really bring to mind how readily people are to propagate thoughts and ideas to one another. The subject of memes and thought contagion is kind of related to this. These are concepts that find myself fascinated with (more so than ufology) perhaps a little too much so and maybe a little too willing to consider.

I don't think this really answers your question because as I said I'm not all that we'll versed in UFOlogy and am in no position to rationalize why any of the four cases merit possible scrutiny of deception especially in terms of who said what when or did what when. I am familiar with certain tropes of the cases, such as the falling slag that killed the dog and the appearance of men in black in Maury Island and the miracle metal from Roswell and so on but i am not so familiar with it that i could explain or explain away why these elements may or may not have any merit. However before i stepped foot in this forum or was even intrigued by the ufo phenomenon i did hear about to a certain extent about all four of these cases and thus i was intrigued when James said he had these cases in his sights.

At the same time it goes without saying that human deception couldn't explain away all the possible ufo cases, nor do I think they always come down to misidentification or altered mental states but here in the US it can be argued that modern ufology did get started with these cases but less likely is not responsible for the multitude of cases that followed and this intrigues me even more. It's almost like a foreign prescence realized that they could operate with a little more openess because they had the military running interference for them. I don't really think that's the case but now I'm am waiting FOR THE SHOW :) why james has these cases in his sights, if it includes human deception what the end game might have been and am i misguided by thinking that these four cases opened up the floodgates to a number of cases that can't be explaned by human deception and why did it happen like this, or is it too far out there to consider that we were being indoctrinated into a whole new paradigm ?
 
The thing is Heidi (and I'm not being a smart ass when I say this ) I'm not even sure what I believe or think. I will say that I'm about 1/2 of the way through a whole series of books written by Robert Bartholomew...whom i'd like to see on the Paracast...and even though it's not a new phenomenon these books really bring to mind how readily people are to propagate thoughts and ideas to one another. The subject of memes and thought contagion is kind of related to this. These are concepts that find myself fascinated with (more so than ufology) perhaps a little too much so and maybe a little too willing to consider.

I don't think this really answers your question because as I said I'm not all that we'll versed in UFOlogy and am in no position to rationalize why any of the four cases merit possible scrutiny of deception especially in terms of who said what when or did what when. I am familiar with certain tropes of the cases, such as the falling slag that killed the dog and the appearance of men in black in Maury Island and the miracle metal from Roswell and so on but i am not so familiar with it that i could explain or explain away why these elements may or may not have any merit. However before i stepped foot in this forum or was even intrigued by the ufo phenomenon i did hear about to a certain extent about all four of these cases and thus i was intrigued when James said he had these cases in his sights.

At the same time it goes without saying that human deception couldn't explain away all the possible ufo cases, nor do I think they always come down to misidentification or altered mental states but here in the US it can be argued that modern ufology did get started with these cases but less likely is not responsible for the multitude of cases that followed and this intrigues me even more. It's almost like a foreign prescence realized that they could operate with a little more openess because they had the military running interference for them. I don't really think that's the case but now I'm am waiting FOR THE SHOW :) why james has these cases in his sights, if it includes human deception what the end game might have been and am i misguided by thinking that these four cases opened up the floodgates to a number of cases that can't be explaned by human deception and why did it happen like this, or is it too far out there to consider that we were being indoctrinated into a whole new paradigm ?
Yes, that's saying it with much more clarity. While it would be a mistake and gross oversimplification to say that UFO's begin as myth in America, it would equally be a huge oversight to fail to recognize the role that WWII & global politics, key cases in the media, pop culture, agents of disruption (i.e. Crisman) and the state of the witness etc. have had in helping to define the modern UFO narrative.
 
We have so much info on what was seen but so little info on who did the seeing. The witness is the critical factor, still present after the sighting and they're the ones that should be studied in more depth otherwise we run the risk of UFO's getting reduced to folklore, which it has on numerous fronts.
I know enough about some personal accounts that this is 'the critical' missing information, for sure! Really, I'm absolutely certain about this. Why?

Many of these people have also had other very unusual experiences. I'm sorry, whether you like it or not, their brain and mind connection to reality is very different than what normal people experience. There is just a certain percentage of the population that have these "curses" or "gifts" or "mental health" issues that are not normal for most of us. That is my firm belief until proven otherwise, because I've seen that kind of thinking when I've known more details about the person's life.

I think this is especially very true for those that have had more than one encounter. That tells me something very unusual is going on with the mind of this individual that is not normal brain function, imo. Call it gifted if you will, but there is also the other possibility too! People can still function somewhat normally otherwise, but I think there are serious psychological issues that are completely missing from the witness information.

Too bad, because I think 'that' just might be the keys to understanding and the ultimate revelation of its truth.
 
I know enough about some personal accounts that this is 'the critical' missing information, for sure! Really, I'm absolutely certain about this. Why?

Many of these people have also had other very unusual experiences. I'm sorry, whether you like it or not, their brain and mind connection to reality is very different than what normal people experience. There is just a certain percentage of the population that have these "curses" or "gifts" or "mental health" issues that are not normal for most of us. That is my firm belief until proven otherwise, because I've seen that kind of thinking when I've known more details about the person's life.

I think this is especially very true for those that have had more than one encounter. That tells me something very unusual is going on with the mind of this individual that is not normal brain function, imo. Call it gifted if you will, but there is also the other possibility too! People can still function somewhat normally otherwise, but I think there are serious psychological issues that are completely missing from the witness information.

Too bad, because I think 'that' just might be the keys to understanding and the ultimate revelation of its truth.
If you like this way of thinking then please check out this episode of Radio Misterioso as it's the best in depth look at the co-creation process. @spacebrother is a real champion of this angle and his eclectically reasonable "conversations" come closest to investigating this aspect of the phenomenon.
Bruce Duensing – Becoming The Change We Want to See | Radio Misterioso
Detailed witness profiles is what should have been collected at the time of sightings. Some of those in depth profiles we do have did cross over into mental health territory. (Could this be seen or mistaken as gift?) This can be seen as destabilization as a result of the event, or the event is just a primary example of their destabilization (see the Dale Spaur case to investigate this line of thinking).

Then again, as I've read in Rutkowski's very rigorously compassionate approach to the witness you can see perfectly bizarre incidents involving aliens and otherwise critically sane folk with no signs of destabilization at all.Rutkowski also clearly documents how people in the middle of schizophrenic episodes can create all manner of wild spacemen & spacewomen as a coping mechanism to help them function in the world. Their minds even lead them to UFO researchers for help (which they need) but then they say it was the aliens that gave them that name. This meme keeps coming up and tells me that we need to look more specifically at the mind and situation of the witness.

So how much is in our minds or is external, is highly debatable. I do think that reporting and repeating cases has also resulted in a huge broken telephone of belief in things that actually did not happen quite the way we have been lead to believe in the magazine, reality television and blog eras of media saturation. Facts become trifles in such a milieu. Possibility and the desire to believe often outweigh the critical components of doubt and skeptical investigation. A catalogue of witnesses is long overdue.
 
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I hope this episode is at least as interesting as its question bank discussion. As we tease apart sociology from the phenomenon (an impossible task some would say) it's good to see what shakes loose from the Tree of Ufology instead of always just getting tangled up in it all the time.
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Thanks Burnt. I think the missing witness information is at least 75% to 98% of the answers. There are extremely few amazing close encounters that don't involve some military or MIC connection, and I'd want to know a lot more about those select few witnesses that aren't poisoned by that well of deception and manipulation.

There's an even more recent program Greg has had too:

Radio Misterioso | In-depth conversations on the paranormal alternating with weird music. Live on Sundays 8-10 PM PST @ killradio.org

How about any Paracast shows that have focused on the witness background and psychology???

Dr. Tyler Kokjohn, Jeff Ritzmann and The Clueless One – Project Core
Posted on March 3, 2015 by Greg

The most important connection we have to examining the paranormal are the witnesses. For too long, researchers have concentrated on how testimony can fit in to preconceived notions of anomalous abduction episodes, psychic occurrences, and ghost sightings. Fields of inquiry are neatly divided into UFOs, cryptozoology, paraspychology, and ghost hunting.

The aim of Project Core is to do away with strict categorization and let witnesses tell their stories without filtering. People who experience apparent entity visitations often report psychic episodes, strange animals, poltergeist phenomena and many other weird events, and the project’s anonymous online reporting format allowed participants to report their experiences without fear of ridicule or censure. Three of the directors of Project Core are credentialed scientists with doctorates in their fields.

The Clueless One and Jeff Ritzmann both have a history of extraordinary paranormal encounters and Dr. Tyler Kokjohn is a biochemist with a keen interest in these areas not normally examined by science. They joined me for a discussion of what was found, and what it might mean for our understanding of these seemingly disparate subjects. This may be one of the first glimpses of future paranormal research.
 
While I am curious about what Dr. Kokjohn has discovered, Vaeni is not at all credible — quite the reverse — and I have concerns about Ritzmann, with whom I have had difficulty holding a rational conversation in recent years.

We are interested in this sort of research, but not from the latter two sources.
 
Thanks for the inside information. Excellent. I haven't listened to that show, so I have no comment about it. But. Have there been any Paracast shows that focused on witness backgrounds and psychology? Too bad Dr. Mack died, but there ought to be more people in psychology that must be fascinated with this subject too. It seems witnesses have a lot to offer about sociology and brain differences and childhood experiences too, imo.
 
While I am curious about what Dr. Kokjohn has discovered, Vaeni is not at all credible — quite the reverse — and I have concerns about Ritzmann, with whom I have had difficulty holding a rational conversation in recent years.

We are interested in this sort of research, but not from the latter two sources.
I know their history here is questionable especially in the explosive Abduction debate they were in the thick of. But, Project Core is the right thing to do, whether or not they are the right people to do it is besides the point as they have done it and are actively engaging the Witness question. Their research material appears to be travelling along rational lines so far and much more in depth than Karla Turner's research. If they continue to grow their database it will be interesting to see results grow over time. Maybe Kokjohn can be a solo guest?
 
A catalogue of witnesses is long overdue.
One of your best 'one liners' I've read. Just think how incomplete it would be, but I'm certain some definite trends would gel into some insightful meaning. Also, many of these people are older now, they may be more willing to talk, and a lot of information could be gathered from family too even if the witness is dead now.

Hey, this would make a great X-Files comeback idea. Mulder and Scully following-up with old cases and new revelations about who these witnesses really are. Alright, I know that's fiction, but I love that idea!
 
One of your best 'one liners' I've read. Just think how incomplete it would be, but I'm certain some definite trends would gel into some insightful meaning. Also, many of these people are older now, they may be more willing to talk, and a lot of information could be gathered from family too even if the witness is dead now.

Hey, this would make a great X-Files comeback idea. Mulder and Scully following-up with old cases and new revelations about who these witnesses really are. Alright, I know that's fiction, but I love that idea!
Who knows , the X-Files are indeed coming back
 
It's not "the government". It is mostly special interest groups within and without government that influence these outcomes. With UFO's that's going to be mainly the Air Force and the MIC that supports and builds the aircraft, and, btw, those are the most guarded types of military secrets that need a lot of disinformation. Why? These fly in the sky! Other top secret military weapons are easily concealed or not needing "a cover". It is undeniably a fact, yes, a fact, that the Air Force is directly involved in the ET UFO mythology to willfully create disinformation and propaganda. Why do you think that is? Why do you think many of these insiders will talk all about ET UFO's, but then they shut-up and won't talk about top secret aircraft??? Why?

IF there are real ET UFO's, then it might be more likely to be USO's in the oceans. Why? Life needs water to begin or exist, as far as we know, and not many humans are on the surface of the oceans until recent decades. The problem with that theory is there are very few sightings to back-up that scenario, but if these are mostly underwater??? It is very well known that the Navy has placed listening devices in strategic areas in the oceans, so we've been listening for decades undersea. Now seriously, why don't you think there are a lot of stories going on about that??? Why? [See above about the Air Force.] The truth is we can't even find flight 370 in remote areas of the ocean, so if I was a UFO seeker or hunter that may be where the real action has always been. USO's.

The Air Force just loves, loves, people like you Heidi. You want to believe. They love you and want you around to think and talk about it too. You're part of their plan for cover. The more conspiratorial you are the better, especially, if you can pull it off as seeming reasonable and sane about it too. Why do you think UFO's are now getting more attention as being triangular craft vs saucers? Think about it...
Thanks for turning a polite conversation into a "gee Heidi, your the kind of stupid shit the government loves!"
 
Thanks for turning a polite conversation into a "gee Heidi, your the kind of stupid shit the government loves!"
I agree. Let's see if we can eliminate this on the forum where we start positioning each other as believers, gov't dupes and debunkers. Addressing the idea and not the person should be our primary focus. Miscommunication and guesses about where we think people are coming from by labeling them does none of us any good. We just start barking instead of thinking together.

We know little about each other except what we choose to reveal and even less about Air Force intentionality - just speculating in such areas launches whole new channels of ill informed ufological illogic. I know, I get called on it all the time.

That whole paragraph could have been easily rewritten to address ideas only. Can you be an even more Open Minded Earthling? Can we all?
 
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