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Thanks for turning a polite conversation into a "gee Heidi, your the kind of stupid shit the government loves!"
I'm sorry you read it that way, because I didn't write it using such harsh and critical words. Guess I should have not used your screen name, a mistake. I made it too directed at you too. I certainly will be more careful with more sensitivity regarding this, because people will be responding at an emotional level rather than the rational aspects to my post. So, you will now more than likely disregard my thinking about it. A mistake on my part, indeed.

We have all been targeted with propaganda regarding the ET UFO's. That spun-out from Moore mainly 'again' in the 1980's, and we are all effected by it, now, 35 years later. I didn't mean to single you out, since we've all been exposed to this. I think a similar propaganda scenario took place beginning in 1947 too and that was done through movies and magazines after these newspaper accounts. Now, it's the Internet and cable TV in addition to the movies.

Can you come-up with any sightings that don't involve the military or MIC? Sightings that happened during daytime that avoid sleep issues and hypnotic inducement or waking dreaming or the visual impairment of nighttime? Children often see all kinds of things that seem very real. It happened to me too but not as fantastical as what happened to Burnt or Chris. Their lives were obviously dramatically altered by those experiences, and Burnt had an intense interest in ET UFO's and the paranormal at such a young age. It's amazing.

This is such a touchy subject too in that it elicits such emotional drama. Yep, I'm not very sensitive to be very cautious about that. I'll try harder next time, hopefully! I'll end with agreeing to Burnt's points. Note his use of the word debunker too. It goes both ways...

Let's see if we can eliminate this on the forum where we start positioning each other as believers, gov't dupes and debunkers. Addressing the idea and not the person should be our primary focus. Miscommunication and guesses about where we think people are coming from by labeling them does none of us any good. We just start barking instead of thinking together.
Heidi, I'm going back to that post to edit your name out and change it. I'll target it more towards any reader.

What's stupid about this post is it's disregarding, again, the witnesses to such events. We know almost nothing about "the witness".
 
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This is its own perplexing conundrum: are people seeing what is actually there or are their minds active participants in a co-creative process?

Yes, except that you are assuming "a co-creative process" of some kind. What do mean by that term? What kind of process do you have in mind? Can you be explicit?

If you can, perhaps we can explore the premises and presuppositions embedded in these next two extracts:

Critics could say that it is simply because it's all happening in the mind, but for those who believe something much more suspicious is taking place, something not human. Then you are left with having to contend with first the tricksterish nature of such reports (which may also cycle back to human psychology and sociology) and beyond that, contend with the fact that an outside agent, that appears to be a non-human intelligence, is purposefully screwing with us in highly theatrical manners for reasons still unknown. Quite often they seem to be drawing water or sampling soil, but that image appears to be for our own benefit at best. It's a head trip for sure.

So how much is in our minds or is external, is highly debatable. I do think that reporting and repeating cases has also resulted in a huge broken telephone of belief in things that actually did not happen quite the way we have been lead to believe in the magazine, reality television and blog eras of media saturation. Facts become trifles in such a milieu. Possibility and the desire to believe often outweigh the critical components of doubt and skeptical investigation. A catalogue of witnesses is long overdue.


What's stupid about this post is it's disregarding, again, the witnesses to such events. We know almost nothing about "the witness".
[/
QUOTE]

What do you expect to be able to learn about 'the witnesses' that would enable you to draw conclusions about whether they have witnessed anything actually appearing (through visual and other senses) in 'the real world' {and by the way, how do you define the 'real world'?}? From some of what you've written here it seems that you hope to find various forms of mental disability or psychotic delusions in 'the witnesses'. Supposing that you can bring into your project a number of witnesses and subject them to thorough psychiatric examinations, brain scans, etc., and find a number of those witnesses to be certifiably insane or seriously dysfunctional (according to the lights of the examiners). what can that sample tell you about the general mental health (and thus reliability) of ufo witnesses in general?

Just curious about the nature of the project you're speaking for. . . .
 
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Note: My partial understanding from browsing at the 'Project Hope' site is that another goal (perhaps the primary goal) of those involved is to discard the approach to understanding paranormal experience
through pre-defined categories of paranormal experience (filters). That sounds to me like an interesting approach and project.

I haven't been able to find much at that site in the way of textual presentations of goals and methods of the research. I'd appreciate any links to such. In the meantime, following references to Bruce Duensing's work, I've read a number of his blogged texts and find his ideas challenging and intriguing.

A TRANSIT OF CONTINGENCIES

I'm also interested in reading his blog entitled "Intangible Materiality," linked at the above site, but that second blog is by invitation only. Does anyone here know his email address and can you pm it to me so that I might ask him for permission to read that blog? Thank you.
 
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What do you expect to be able to learn about 'the witnesses' that would enable you to draw conclusions about whether they have witnessed anything actually appearing (through visual and other senses) in 'the real world' {and by the way, how do you define the 'real world'?}? From some of what you've written here it seems that you hope to find various forms of mental disability or psychotic delusions in 'the witnesses'. Supposing that you can bring into your project a number of witnesses and subject them to thorough psychiatric examinations, brain scans, etc., and find a number of those witnesses to be certifiably insane or seriously dysfunctional (according to the lights of the examiners). what can that sample tell you about the general mental health (and thus reliability) of ufo witnesses in general?
Just curious about the nature of the project you're speaking for.
I think the research study would have to remain anonymous and confidential. Any participant would be able to discuss it only after the study would be published, but that would be their decision. I think any money made off the research, including a significant percentage from participants that might go public, would go to a foundation that supports more research about the topic. That will discourage someone trying to capitalize for financial reasons just to be in the study or to promote it for money. Otherwise, there could be non-disclosure agreements to keep all participants anonymous and confidential without the right to discuss it too. Anyway, this would protect the privacy of the witness people, so they could speak freely about their history and experiences.

I certainly have no idea exactly what should be studied, but here are some ideas:

1) The family history of the person to get an idea of some possible genetic components, and if there are any other family members with similar experiences. This might include interviews with other family members too.

2) Obviously, the mental health and personality of the person is of primary concern, so there has to be some screening and interview process that covers that too. There might be some traits that can be identified that lend to this type of experience. How fearful is this person? What childhood experiences may have "imprinted" this person with certain types of beliefs or lasting effects.

This is a very long list I could come-up with, but the objective is the truth. Not to label someone with some form of mental illness. Many of these people are very likely to be gifted, imo, but some differences and similarities and traits will be identified. Some might be abnormal and/or highly "X" = you fill in the blank.

3) I think there needs to be some testing about perceptual differences the witness may have that are unique or different. These might include brain scans and visual tests, etc. Sensitivity to sounds or electrical fields or ???

4) Obviously, a history and any testing necessary that checks for altered states this person may be experiencing. This might include a sleep study, and any other known tests that can detect altered states. And, a history about any drug use [legal or not] that may have been a factor.

5) The study would include people with other types of experiences that could be related to the UFO and ET experience too.

6) Obviously, demographics and environmental and geographical information should be gathered that might be useful too.

Ok, I've contributed some ideas in answer to your questions. Would you please contribute some ideas you may know about that would help with this proposed "witness study" concept.

Is there anything from your experiences or learning you might have accomplished that could help study this further with a detailed witness analysis? Thanks.

I hope other people will throw-in some ideas too.

Maybe James has some ideas too? If James does not respond here, then I'll ask in the After Show thread too.

The Paracast show is finished now, so James can only respond online.

I'm interested in your ideas Constance too. Heidi? Burnt? Anyone?
 
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I haven't been able to find much at that site in the way of textual presentations of goals and methods of the research. I'd appreciate any links to such. In the meantime, following references to Bruce Duensing's work, I've read a number of his blogged texts and find his ideas challenging and intriguing.

A TRANSIT OF CONTINGENCIES

I'm also interested in reading his blog entitled "Intangible Materiality," linked at the above site, but that second blog is by invitation only. Does anyone here know his email address and can you pm it to me so that I might ask him for permission to read that blog? Thank you.
Much of the discussion regarding the co-creative process gets outlined in the Misterioso episode with Duensing, Greg Bishop's Paracast episode, my episode on the Paracast and on both our episode threads. These ideas were fairly well detailed in those threads and you were a participant for a bunch of that as I recall. I used the Babadook movie as an example of how we can create discontinuity in our lives.

I'll scroll through those threads and post some relevant links. Duensing and Bishop go into this co-creative process in depth on the Misterioso ep. But I would summarize it like this:

The UFO experience is a discontinuous event comprised of who the witness is prior to the experience, the phenomenon itself, the experience of the phenomenon and then finally the after effects of the UFO experience. While the UFO stimulus remains unknown, we can investigate the witness and understand their psycho-cultural context just prior to their experience. This psycho-social profile appears to greatly influence the nature of the experience providing ship and humanoid memes over different cultural eras.

The experience of the phenomenon is a biological sensory processing event, which is a limited experience: limitations of grey matter computation, limitations in how we may be processing unknown stimulus, perhaps even a stimulus that stretches our own capacities for shape, color, speed sound etc. causing our own processing systems to do the best they can under duress. Keep in mind this processing may be frequently taking place in a brain that is both flooded with all sorts of neurochemistry, might be flooded with fear, increased heart rates, pressure on the optic nerve as well as the potential for EM fields to be affecting those witnesses in close proximity in an even more significant manner when it comes to how time passes, hallucinatory events etc.

The UFO event also has these other features: we often see what we expect to see, culturally front-loaded sets of images and memes that define what the UFO should look like, witnesses who share events often produce contrary image reports, timelines and experiences. Preceding such events are other commonalities in the witness: high stress in their lives, a string of bad luck, ill health, family trauma etc.. These preceding events along with the UFO experience and the fallout of these events form a discontinuos narrative that the witness alone works to make sense of. That's an important frame to the whole of the UFO event. At the centre of the frame is often a destabilized individual under high stress.

But at the exact moment of stimulus, of seeing something impossible or unfamiliar, under a series of unique biological, psychological and cultural circumstances, the mind must still process what is being seen and the brain will make sense of it the best it can, providing, or backfilling the narrative as Duensing would say, to produce the image of the UFO we expect to see, or at least make sense of a liminal experience the best it can. The issue of liminality is particular to the abduction experience and how the default brain network may play a central role in assembling the discontinuos narrative into some type of linear experience that can be integrated into the normalcy of our lives.

This way of thinking helps to explain or provide insight into decades of variance, cultural parallels and patterns to the experience (ship sizes, shapes, capacities that appear to be just ahead of our ability and other variances such as actions of the ships or humanoids, especially feelings of intimacy e.g. experiences of telepathy, knowledge of personal facts, names etc. ) as well as why there is so little physical evidence, so much internalization to the experience and may even cause us to reconsider evidence that has been amalgamated into a linear narrative that may have no connection to the initial stimulus at all beyond chance e.g. the glowing fairy ring of fungus may get integrated into the landing tale of a UFO experience that may not be connected at all to that stimulus. Does that make any sense?

Btw, this in no means is an attempt to explain away all UFO events as purely internal evens, though some may just be that, but it is a model that tries to integrate various aspects & features of this experience into a possible framework, to perhaps know parts of the phenomenon a bit better.
 
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Much of the discussion regarding the co-creative process gets outlined in the Misterioso episode with Duensing, my episode on the Paracast and on my episode thread and Greg Bishop's Paracast thread. These ideas were fairly well detailed in those threads and you were a participant for a bunch of that as I recall.

I'll scroll through those threads and post some relevant links. Duensing and Bishop go into this co-creative process in depth on the Misterioso ep. But I would summarize it like this:

Don't spend a lot of time on that unless you want to. Just link the Paracast threads and the podcast episodes here and at Radio Misterioso that are relevant. I wish there were texts available by these theorists. I prefer to read what other people think and claim (and why) rather than gathering it through podcasts.

Thank you for summarizing the main ideas for me. I'm just going on now to read that part of your post.
 
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Here's a map of Duensing's ideas from his Radio Misterioso episode:
January 18, 2015 — Greg Bishop | Page 10 | The Paracast Community Forums
Here's his Misterioso episode:
Bruce Duensing – Becoming The Change We Want to See | Radio Misterioso
Here's some replay for you, read forwards and backwards from this one:
February 1, 2015 — Burnt State | Page 6 | The Paracast Community Forums
Bishop on the Paracast:
January 18, 2015 — Greg Bishop | The Paracast — The Gold Standard of Paranormal Radio
Me:
February 1, 2015 — Burnt State | The Paracast — The Gold Standard of Paranormal Radio
Some of the best witness study work I've read comes from Rutkowski:
Abductions and Aliens: What's Really Going On: Chris A. Rutkowski: 9780888822109: Books - Amazon.ca
And you've found Duensing's blog.

Soupie's thread also is a good focus on the UFO stimulus:
The UFO Stimulus | The Paracast Community Forums
 
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I'm sorry you read it that way, because I didn't write it using such harsh and critical words. Guess I should have not used your screen name, a mistake. I made it too directed at you too. I certainly will be more careful with more sensitivity regarding this, because people will be responding at an emotional level rather than the rational aspects to my post. So, you will now more than likely disregard my thinking about it. A mistake on my part, indeed.

We have all been targeted with propaganda regarding the ET UFO's. That spun-out from Moore mainly 'again' in the 1980's, and we are all effected by it, now, 35 years later. I didn't mean to single you out, since we've all been exposed to this. I think a similar propaganda scenario took place beginning in 1947 too and that was done through movies and magazines after these newspaper accounts. Now, it's the Internet and cable TV in addition to the movies.

Can you come-up with any sightings that don't involve the military or MIC? Sightings that happened during daytime that avoid sleep issues and hypnotic inducement or waking dreaming or the visual impairment of nighttime? Children often see all kinds of things that seem very real. It happened to me too but not as fantastical as what happened to Burnt or Chris. Their lives were obviously dramatically altered by those experiences, and Burnt had an intense interest in ET UFO's and the paranormal at such a young age. It's amazing.

This is such a touchy subject too in that it elicits such emotional drama. Yep, I'm not very sensitive to be very cautious about that. I'll try harder next time, hopefully! I'll end with agreeing to Burnt's points. Note his use of the word debunker too. It goes both ways...


Heidi, I'm going back to that post to edit your name out and change it. I'll target it more towards any reader.

What's stupid about this post is it's disregarding, again, the witnesses to such events. We know almost nothing about "the witness".
Thanks for the gentler approach.
Much of the discussion regarding the co-creative process gets outlined in the Misterioso episode with Duensing, Greg Bishop's Paracast episode, my episode on the Paracast and on both our episode threads. These ideas were fairly well detailed in those threads and you were a participant for a bunch of that as I recall. I used the Babadook movie as an example of how we can create discontinuity in our lives.

I'll scroll through those threads and post some relevant links. Duensing and Bishop go into this co-creative process in depth on the Misterioso ep. But I would summarize it like this:

The UFO experience is a discontinuous event comprised of who the witness is prior to the experience, the phenomenon itself, the experience of the phenomenon and then finally the after effects of the UFO experience. While the UFO stimulus remains unknown, we can investigate the witness and understand their psycho-cultural context just prior to their experience. This psycho-social profile appears to greatly influence the nature of the experience providing ship and humanoid memes over different cultural eras.

The experience of the phenomenon is a biological sensory processing event, which is a limited experience: limitations of grey matter computation, limitations in how we may be processing unknown stimulus, perhaps even a stimulus that stretches our own capacities for shape, color, speed sound etc. causing our own processing systems to do the best they can under duress. Keep in mind this processing may be frequently taking place in a brain that is both flooded with all sorts of neurochemistry, might be flooded with fear, increased heart rates, pressure on the optic nerve as well as the potential for EM fields to be affecting those witnesses in close proximity in an even more significant manner when it comes to how time passes, hallucinatory events etc.

The UFO event also has these other features: we often see what we expect to see, culturally front-loaded sets of images and memes that define what the UFO should look like, witnesses who share events often produce contrary image reports, timelines and experiences. Preceding such events are other commonalities in the witness: high stress in their lives, a string of bad luck, ill health, family trauma etc.. These preceding events along with the UFO experience and the fallout of these events form a discontinuos narrative that the witness alone works to make sense of. That's an important frame to the whole of the UFO event. At the centre of the frame is often a destabilized individual under high stress.

But at the exact moment of stimulus, of seeing something impossible or unfamiliar, under a series of unique biological, psychological and cultural circumstances, the mind must still process what is being seen and the brain will make sense of it the best it can, providing, or backfilling the narrative as Duensing would say, to produce the image of the UFO we expect to see, or at least make sense of a liminal experience the best it can. The issue of liminality is particular to the abduction experience and how the default brain network may play a central role in assembling the discontinuos narrative into some type of linear experience that can be integrated into the normalcy of our lives.

This way of thinking helps to explain or provide insight into decades of variance, cultural parallels and patterns to the experience (ship sizes, shapes, capacities that appear to be just ahead of our ability and other variances such as actions of the ships or humanoids, especially feelings of intimacy e.g. experiences of telepathy, knowledge of personal facts, names etc. ) as well as why there is so little physical evidence, so much internalization to the experience and may even cause us to reconsider evidence that has been amalgamated into a linear narrative that may have no connection to the initial stimulus at all beyond chance e.g. the glowing fairy ring of fungus may get integrated into the landing tale of a UFO experience that may not be connected at all to that stimulus. Does that make any sense?

Btw, this in no means is an attempt to explain away all UFO events as purely internal evens, though some may just be that, but it is a model that tries to integrate various aspects & features of this experience into a possible framework, to perhaps know parts of the phenomenon a bit better.
Ok, ok, you can shoot me later, hehe. Two people are in a car accident, similar injuries. One goes to work the next day. The other takes a week off to get over it. The commonality is the accident, the reaction, being human. The study of the witness is almost like grabbing the crumbs from the french bread bag after the bread is gone.
 
Two people are in a car accident, similar injuries. One goes to work the next day. The other takes a week off to get over it. The commonality is the accident, the reaction, being human. The study of the witness is almost like grabbing the crumbs from the french bread bag after the bread is gone.
As I said, who the witness was prior to the event is as critical to understanding the experience of the traumatic event and their subsequent responses as is the event itself. The witness is clearly the other half of the equation and they are still here with us. The UFO in fact is a feeting ephemeral moment, sometimes dissolving right before the eyes of the witness. There's little there to go on.

After Dale Spaur comes home from chasing a UFO (that he affectionately named Floyd and had many subsequent private viewings of) he hit his wife. He destabilized further, lost his job & family. Was his violence a prior part of his life? Was the marriage already dissolving and what role did all of that play in his witness event that involved a number of other people?

The UFO event is an extreme human experience relayed primarily to the public consciousness through their stories. In my opinion they are the bread in the bag and it's the UFO that leaves the trail of crumbs. Yet, we keep chasing crumbs.
Glassboro.jpg
 
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Much of the discussion regarding the co-creative process gets outlined in the Misterioso episode with Duensing, Greg Bishop's Paracast episode, my episode on the Paracast and on both our episode threads. These ideas were fairly well detailed in those threads and you were a participant for a bunch of that as I recall. I used the Babadook movie as an example of how we can create discontinuity in our lives.

I'll scroll through those threads and post some relevant links. Duensing and Bishop go into this co-creative process in depth on the Misterioso ep. But I would summarize it like this:

The UFO experience is a discontinuous event comprised of who the witness is prior to the experience, the phenomenon itself, the experience of the phenomenon and then finally the after effects of the UFO experience. While the UFO stimulus remains unknown, we can investigate the witness and understand their psycho-cultural context just prior to their experience. This psycho-social profile appears to greatly influence the nature of the experience providing ship and humanoid memes over different cultural eras.

The experience of the phenomenon is a biological sensory processing event, which is a limited experience: limitations of grey matter computation, limitations in how we may be processing unknown stimulus, perhaps even a stimulus that stretches our own capacities for shape, color, speed sound etc. causing our own processing systems to do the best they can under duress. Keep in mind this processing may be frequently taking place in a brain that is both flooded with all sorts of neurochemistry, might be flooded with fear, increased heart rates, pressure on the optic nerve as well as the potential for EM fields to be affecting those witnesses in close proximity in an even more significant manner when it comes to how time passes, hallucinatory events etc.

The UFO event also has these other features: we often see what we expect to see, culturally front-loaded sets of images and memes that define what the UFO should look like, witnesses who share events often produce contrary image reports, timelines and experiences. Preceding such events are other commonalities in the witness: high stress in their lives, a string of bad luck, ill health, family trauma etc.. These preceding events along with the UFO experience and the fallout of these events form a discontinuos narrative that the witness alone works to make sense of. That's an important frame to the whole of the UFO event. At the centre of the frame is often a destabilized individual under high stress.

But at the exact moment of stimulus, of seeing something impossible or unfamiliar, under a series of unique biological, psychological and cultural circumstances, the mind must still process what is being seen and the brain will make sense of it the best it can, providing, or backfilling the narrative as Duensing would say, to produce the image of the UFO we expect to see, or at least make sense of a liminal experience the best it can. The issue of liminality is particular to the abduction experience and how the default brain network may play a central role in assembling the discontinuos narrative into some type of linear experience that can be integrated into the normalcy of our lives.

This way of thinking helps to explain or provide insight into decades of variance, cultural parallels and patterns to the experience (ship sizes, shapes, capacities that appear to be just ahead of our ability and other variances such as actions of the ships or humanoids, especially feelings of intimacy e.g. experiences of telepathy, knowledge of personal facts, names etc. ) as well as why there is so little physical evidence, so much internalization to the experience and may even cause us to reconsider evidence that has been amalgamated into a linear narrative that may have no connection to the initial stimulus at all beyond chance e.g. the glowing fairy ring of fungus may get integrated into the landing tale of a UFO experience that may not be connected at all to that stimulus. Does that make any sense?

Btw, this in no means is an attempt to explain away all UFO events as purely internal evens, though some may just be that, but it is a model that tries to integrate various aspects & features of this experience into a possible framework, to perhaps know parts of the phenomenon a bit better.

I appreciate your effort to gather together the multiple and wide ranging topics involved in discussions concerning Project Hope. It seems to me that some of the questions being pursued are unanswerable, but I'll withhold judgment until I've listened to some of the podcasts. Do you have a link to the place
at Bruce Duensing's blog where he discusses aspects of ufo-related experiences from his background and point of view? I'm also looking for a way to contact him with an email requesting permission to read his Intangible Materiality blog. Thanks again for this introductory material and also for the links I see you've added to the thread.
 
. . .
Ok, I've contributed some ideas in answer to your questions. Would you please contribute some ideas you may know about that would help with this proposed "witness study" concept.

Is there anything from your experiences or learning you might have accomplished that could help study this further with a detailed witness analysis? Thanks.

Thanks. I don't think you've actually responded to the questions I asked, but that's ok. I would have no idea what to suggest as additions to what you've described. Good luck with the project.
 
As I said, who the witness was prior to the event is as critical to understanding the experience of the traumatic event and their subsequent responses as is the event itself. The witness is clearly the other half of the equation and they are still here with us. The UFO in fact is a feeting ephemeral moment, sometimes dissolving right before the eyes of the witness. There's little there to go on.

After Dale Spaur comes home from chasing a UFO (that he affectionately named Floyd and had many subsequent private viewings of) he hit his wife. He destabilized further, lost his job & family. Was his violence a prior part of his life? Was the marriage already dissolving and what role did all of that play in his witness event that involved a number of other people?

The UFO event is an extreme human experience relayed primarily to the public consciousness through their stories. In my opinion they are the bread in the bag and it's the UFO that leaves the trail of crumbs. Yet, we keep chasing crumbs.
Glassboro.jpg

I've never read about this case. Is there an online representation of it that you'd recommend?
 
Not disregarding witnesses at all here, but for the first several years that I started digging into the whole UFO thing I went to this site http://www.nuforc.org/webreports/ndxe201503.html
They do updates I think bi-monthly. Anyways, in reading the reports most of them are reported in a rather mundane way considering what they think they saw. Granted there's some every month that crack me up. Some descriptions do seem slightly whacked. And I have no idea how many more never make the list because there explainable. Honestly, it wasn't for quite awhile that I realized all the "extraordinary" cases to read that came with abduction or the object hovering right over someone's head. I would wager though that most reports are more simple in nature. But Nuforc also does this thing of rating a State or area depending on the sightings each month. They also do a summary of the most witnessed objects, like balls of light, fireballs , etc. And they'll feature a more detailed sighting each month. Scanning the sight every month gives me the feeling that most witnesses aren't loaded with personality but realize they should report the strangeness they see.
Now, take that example and hop over to Facebook. I belong to a local city neighborhood watch site on FB mostly because I find it helpful when accidents close roads down etc. I'm constantly amazed at the attention to detail these folks engage in. Everything shows up at this site. Cars parked too long on a street could be stolen, shady guy lurking at a park, dogs on the loose without owner, etc, etc. People are observant. They report these things and a string of other people come behind them to confirm. So when I think of Ufology I think of the long years of reports that don't make good reading, don't make a good book and seldom are talked about simply because there's nothing to talk about. That's why I so heavily lean in the direction of figuring out how to capture/record the object versus analyzing the witness. I would think that it's more an impatience within the field to turn the study more on the witness, simply because we have nothing left. But that in itself doesn't make for good explanation. But again, I will read what you guys come up with with interest.
 
Not disregarding witnesses at all here, but for the first several years that I started digging into the whole UFO thing I went to this site http://www.nuforc.org/webreports/ndxe201503.html
They do updates I think bi-monthly. Anyways, in reading the reports most of them are reported in a rather mundane way considering what they think they saw. Granted there's some every month that crack me up. Some descriptions do seem slightly whacked. And I have no idea how many more never make the list because there explainable. Honestly, it wasn't for quite awhile that I realized all the "extraordinary" cases to read that came with abduction or the object hovering right over someone's head. I would wager though that most reports are more simple in nature. But Nuforc also does this thing of rating a State or area depending on the sightings each month. They also do a summary of the most witnessed objects, like balls of light, fireballs , etc. And they'll feature a more detailed sighting each month. Scanning the sight every month gives me the feeling that most witnesses aren't loaded with personality but realize they should report the strangeness they see.
Now, take that example and hop over to Facebook. I belong to a local city neighborhood watch site on FB mostly because I find it helpful when accidents close roads down etc. I'm constantly amazed at the attention to detail these folks engage in. Everything shows up at this site. Cars parked too long on a street could be stolen, shady guy lurking at a park, dogs on the loose without owner, etc, etc. People are observant. They report these things and a string of other people come behind them to confirm. So when I think of Ufology I think of the long years of reports that don't make good reading, don't make a good book and seldom are talked about simply because there's nothing to talk about. That's why I so heavily lean in the direction of figuring out how to capture/record the object versus analyzing the witness. I would think that it's more an impatience within the field to turn the study more on the witness, simply because we have nothing left. But that in itself doesn't make for good explanation. But again, I will read what you guys come up with with interest.
You bring up two important points : the reporting and interviewing of witnesses is shoddy at best and that people pay very close attention to the things that matter most to them.

The majority of UFO reports are often insignificant reports of lights in the sky and while some of these may be intriguing at the end of the day they add up to just being lights in the sky and nothing more, unless someone's got radar on it. The history of reports, as you have noted, are often mundane and heavily focused on the object, the most interesting ones being those up close cases where details of the object are quite clear. These form the bulk of the core history of Ufology. We now have accumulated reams and reams of descriptions of objects with very few insights to make, outside of craft patterns over different periods of reporting, and what appears to position the earth as the hot galactic, tourist destination.
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When you look at the diversity of craft and humanoid shapes we have to make some possible conclusions:
  • The universe is teeming with life and we are a very popular place to visit
  • Getting soil samples from earth is the equivalent of getting a chip off the Berlin wall (i.e. I visited earth and all I got was this lousy soil sample)
  • There are frequent camouflage changes by perhaps one species that are creating the appearance of many different visitors for the purposes of social manipulation (closed system: IDH)
  • There are frequent camouflage changes engaged in by multiple species because that's what's hip and trending in the current Galactic Handbook regarding what to do when visiting lower lifeforms (open system: ETH)
  • There is a tricksterish source that we can not yet name or is a part of the process of experiencing UFO's and humanoids, something that pushes human perception to its edges, and has a good sense of humor
  • Human perception plays a role in determining what is seen in a collaborative process between us, our senses and the stimulus
As I am of the belief that an alien lifeform visiting earth has to be the most incredible and rarest of occurrences, yet what is reported across time suggest the exact opposite, then maybe we need to look much more closely at who is doing the reporting in these proximity cases. After all, how many more reports do we need to collect, and to say what with? Getting witness profiles and investigating those core cases through highly detailed understandings of who was doing the looking, and then follow up reports with them over years + decades would yield more insight in understanding that what is taking place may be part of a number of processes here on earth, some natural and others perhaps very unnatural, possiby even constructions of new systems introduced to human civilization.

The second half of your post reveals a lot about human nature, natural born detectives that we are. When our children's safety is on our minds we can provide accurate, coordinated details, confirmed by multiple sources. We know what's happening in our neighborhood.
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The sky however, is big and foreign to most of us as a medium to inhabit, and we know little about it, how it works (see climate change debates) and our perceptual capacities are simply not built for accuracy when it comes to this medium. It wreaks havoc on even experienced pilots who can get disoriented easily depending on sky circumstance.

Really, we are not Trainedobservors (miss all his practical insights) and there's an important message there too. Witness reporting on unfamiliar, extreme objects that have profund effects on the observer, require us to build up a different kind of database and to create a different kind of observer who may collectively be able to report with accuracy and efficiency what your neighborhood watch does. We still do not have that system in place, and so we will be forever doomed to recording lights in the sky and scratching our heads about the very strange and impossible objects people report. Laughter often follows. The witness is damned. We have closed the circle of study before it even got started - such have always been the limitations of ufology, with very few exceptions.

I would cite Greg Bishop as a mostly lone wolf @spacebrother who has been regularly pursuing this line of thinking and I am indebted to the ongoing history of innovative ufological thought not recorded in books but through the oral history of conversations as found on Radio Misterioso.
 
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Anyways, in reading the reports most of them are reported in a rather mundane way considering what they think they saw. Granted there's some every month that crack me up. Some descriptions do seem slightly whacked. And I have no idea how many more never make the list because there explainable. Honestly, it wasn't for quite awhile that I realized all the "extraordinary" cases to read that came with abduction or the object hovering right over someone's head. I would wager though that most reports are more simple in nature. But Nuforc also does this thing of rating a State or area depending on the sightings each month. They also do a summary of the most witnessed objects, like balls of light, fireballs , etc.
Ahhh, I see. You really seem convinced of the "nuts and bolts" because of the incomplete "report form" and the way people report those details. You do realize, of course, there are no other questions on these report forms that address what Burnt and I am interested in??? That is an extreme bias and an "unforgivable sin" that is its own self-destruction towards the understanding of this phenomena since it began. The most critical data is missing and omitted. Why??? Why? Why?

Vallee definitely understands this data is missing, and he is the only person I know of in this field that seems honest and on-track to solve this mystery. I don't agree with some of his ideas wherein he thinks there's a real nuts-and-bolts connection that seems disconnected to our reality, because every single shred of material evidence that he's been given is Earth bound and found on Earth. It does not, I repeat, does not require any other worldly origin from off-planet or sourced from another dimension. Vallee should be saying that this is the trickster element at play here that has a nuts-and-bolts component too. Maybe he does about this specific contradiction I see in his thinking, and I'm just not aware of that possibility.

The people that promoted the idea of the flying saucers all come from special interests that relate to the MIC and the beginnings of the Air Force just after WWII. These people knew people can be manipulated into almost any belief system. Propaganda. Humanity is factually susceptible to any belief system; even those that are morally corrupt and end at "evil" end points. WWII was the immediate proof of that, and these are the people that started the UFO propaganda machine. They quickly learned this phenomena could be shaped and formed for their top secret programs. This was revamped in the 1980's to provide cover for the most valuable assets the USA had at the time: stealth technologies.

The other "insane" missing data point from every UFO database is the relationship to how far the sighting was from an airport, military base, test range, and MIC manufacturer. Without that critical missing data the UFO databases are useless for the statistical analysis needed to understand how much this phenomena is associated with the military or other flying Human aircraft.

As I said before, I had a complete shift in my understanding about this phenomena after interviewing in detail a UFO witness. It clearly and undeniably came to light that this person thinks and understands and experiences reality far differently than I do. I became far more understanding about 'why' there is so many differences in our fundamental understandings about the nature of reality. Getting lost in the restricted database form with its very limited nuts-and-bolts reports [its blinding limited 'fields' of data in database terminology] without the two other missing 'critical data' points [or fields] I'm talking about is a blinding mistake. That's the fundamental difference between how you see this phenomena vs my thinking about it.

Please consider just how very few up-close ET-UFO encounters there are without any potential MIC or military involvement. You think the databases have proven there are many, but I'll just point out to you the missing data point [the critical missing field of data] I gave you above that, I believe, renders those reports useless for ETH. Add-on the missing witness psychological background information, and I think Ufology is still at the starting line of understanding. It's gotten absolutely nowhere for ETH except to help lend aid and cover as an undeniably genius propaganda service to the Air Force and MIC and the entertainment industries. The three great pillars of the UFO stool. What "a dump" that is! The ultimate UFO patty that can fly us into any belief! Triangular ET UFO's anyone? Lol. I've certainly enjoyed all the entertainment aspects that have taken my mind to Star Treks and Star Wars and Resurrection Cylons and plenty of written science fiction too. It helps my mind stay active and think creatively about humankind's potentials.
 
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Not disregarding witnesses at all here, but for the first several years that I started digging into the whole UFO thing I went to this site http://www.nuforc.org/webreports/ndxe201503.html
They do updates I think bi-monthly. Anyways, in reading the reports most of them are reported in a rather mundane way considering what they think they saw. Granted there's some every month that crack me up. Some descriptions do seem slightly whacked. And I have no idea how many more never make the list because there explainable. Honestly, it wasn't for quite awhile that I realized all the "extraordinary" cases to read that came with abduction or the object hovering right over someone's head. I would wager though that most reports are more simple in nature. But Nuforc also does this thing of rating a State or area depending on the sightings each month. They also do a summary of the most witnessed objects, like balls of light, fireballs , etc. And they'll feature a more detailed sighting each month. Scanning the sight every month gives me the feeling that most witnesses aren't loaded with personality but realize they should report the strangeness they see.
Now, take that example and hop over to Facebook. I belong to a local city neighborhood watch site on FB mostly because I find it helpful when accidents close roads down etc. I'm constantly amazed at the attention to detail these folks engage in. Everything shows up at this site. Cars parked too long on a street could be stolen, shady guy lurking at a park, dogs on the loose without owner, etc, etc. People are observant. They report these things and a string of other people come behind them to confirm. So when I think of Ufology I think of the long years of reports that don't make good reading, don't make a good book and seldom are talked about simply because there's nothing to talk about. That's why I so heavily lean in the direction of figuring out how to capture/record the object versus analyzing the witness. I would think that it's more an impatience within the field to turn the study more on the witness, simply because we have nothing left. But that in itself doesn't make for good explanation. But again, I will read what you guys come up with with interest.

it's funny you mention this Heidi because I was thinking about this a few days ago, that is the reports sent in on neighborhood watches of seemingly mundane events and the amount of observational powers people can have and yet it's not hard to come across papers on how that capacity can allude at least some people when it comes to collecting details on traumatic events. I found myself thinking would those people who do submit the neighborhood watch type events be able to carry that same skill set say when being pressed about an event that is de-stabilizing in some way or is there something in the human psyche that causes us to "loose it" when confronted with something traumatic or fantastical ? Or maybe it just comes down to numbers is there a tendency to give a little more credence to a solo observer to an event as opposed to an event that has multiple witnesses as the more people that get involved the more likely the story can be different at least when it comes to details ?
 
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I would cite Greg Bishop as a mostly lone wolf @spacebrother who has been regularly pursuing this line of thinking and I am indebted to the ongoing history of innovative ufological thought not recorded in books but through the oral history of conversations as found on Radio Misterioso.
Agreed.

Btw, I know of no other person that posts here with such insightful thinking that is also capable of putting your ideas into the best creative writing and creative visual ability that can explain in fewer words what many books about UFO's will never do. You are "the best" that the Paracast forum offers. It is amazing, so you are amazing too.
 
Agreed.

Btw, I know of no other person that posts here with such insightful thinking that is also capable of putting your ideas into the best creative writing and creative visual ability that can explain in fewer words what many books about UFO's will never do. You are "the best" that the Paracast forum offers. It is amazing, so you are amazing too.
Where's the "Aw, shucks" emoticon? I just like to get dug into an idea and then explore from there. i am still just trying to make sense of insensible frequent human experiences & odd occurrences - it's an addiction.

Trust me, I'm the thin edge of the wedge. There are much better writers out here, more concise and to the point than I, and we have also lost some of the best writing about paranormality due to attrition, suspected alien abduction (Nameless and trainedobservor) and the Conscious and Paranormal threads. All the real thinking happens there. I can't keep up.
 
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