Kathleen Marden and Denise Stoner

[Jeff Davis]

At one time we could easily disprove that people could fly, then along came Yves Rossy. I knew an electrician once who was a solid old country no-nonsense kind of guy who told me about an incident at a shipyard where some guys were welding a huge steel plate with a high energy arc welder, and for some reason the guys arm slipped toward the plate with the electric line attached to it and it seemed that for a moment his arm went through the plate in a ghost like manner and people on the other side even saw it. Sure it's anecdotal, but solid matter is mostly space and the electron layer is the outer boundary between atoms, so who knows for sure that interposition of matter isn't possible with right technology?

There has been a great deal of research into sound wave bombardment and atomic structural rigidity. There is a pretty cool/entertaining UFO documentary called "UFOs: The Secret Evidence" that contains some unusual film/video documentation within it that supposedly shows solid metal turning very rubbery and becoming flexible due to this type of experimentation. Not sure if it's a hoax or not, but I have also seen water suspended atop what's being referred to as a "force field" in a Smithsonian Science publication.

 

[Jimi H.]

At one time we could easily disprove that people could fly, then along came Yves Rossy.

What? Can Yves Rossy fly? How does he do that, waving his arms?

You mean Yves Rossy uses technology to fly, and that's different, the argument is invalid.

 

[Jimi H.]

There has been a great deal of research into sound wave bombardment and atomic structural rigidity. There is a pretty cool/entertaining UFO documentary called "UFOs: The Secret Evidence" that contains some unusual film/video documentation within it that supposedly shows solid metal turning very rubbery and becoming flexible due to this type of experimentation. Not sure if it's a hoax or not, but I have also seen water suspended atop what's being referred to as a "force field" in a Smithsonian Science publication.

Poke me when they can make the metal dematerialize and reform on another side of a wall. Even better, please wake me when you can do it to a live human being, I wanna see a human being reformed after losing, ahem, 'structural cohesion'.

 

[Jeff Davis]

It's weird stuff for sure, but please bear in mind I am not defending word for word reporting of the AP. Not in the least. I am not in any way familiar with what goes on inside the AP, but one thing is for certain, something is happening and that something is real to those experiencing it. Too many people from every walk of life imaginable have had these experiences and they bear out incredible similarities. Many, many, many of these people want NOTHING to do with notoriety, fortune, or UFOs for that matter. The fact is, the AP does not make one bit of sense and I would be the first person to agree with you that much of it seems a bit too fantastic.

 

[Randall]

What? Can Yves Rossy fly? How does he do that, waving his arms?
You mean Yves Rossy uses technology to fly, and that's different, the argument is invalid.

Actually, using Yves Rossy as an example is perfectly valid because we were talking about the ETH and the possibility of material interposition, both of which presumes the use of technology. So try to avoid moving the goalposts around. I tend to catch that sort of thing pretty fast. If you need to review the context, the relevant link is here: Kathleen Marden and Denise Stoner | Page 7 | The Paracast Community Forums

 

[Burnt State]

It's weird stuff for sure, but please bear in mind I am not defending word for word reporting of the AP. Not in the least. I am not in any way familiar with what goes on inside the AP, but one thing is for certain, something is happening and that something is real to those experiencing it. Too many people from every walk of life imaginable have had these experiences and they bear out incredible similarities. Many, many, many of these people want NOTHING to do with notoriety, fortune, or UFOs for that matter. The fact is, the AP does not make one bit of sense and I would be the first person to agree with you that much of it seems a bit too fantastic.

Like Sasquatch, the incredible number of sightings by reasonable people and the 'trace evidence' (which is intriguing but questionable) makes AP compelling. However I'm more doubtful about AP though. Yeti discovery seems much more reasonable and possble. The big question I have regarding both is how much cultural front-loading and conditioned minds play roles in defining scary, anomalous and common but misunderstood occurrences?

In the case of AP I'm much more inclined to believe that there are other personal issues, and perhaps mental health concerns at play. Cases with multiple witnesses are critical i.e. Travis Walton and the Australian Cahill case offer some very compelling narratives that suggest the reality of AP. I would also return to the basic encounter of the alien itself. Those stories, where multiple witnesses draw relatively the same alien, also captivate me as they suggest an impossible, concrete reality. This feature is in the Cahill case.

 

[Jimi H.]

.. So try to avoid moving the goalposts around. ..

Oh, please..

You can't just explain the unexplainable by inferring supposed impossible technology which is completely analogous to super-natural powers.

Trust me, I pick up on those little things too.

 

[Randall]

Oh, please..
You can't just explain the unexplainable by inferring supposed impossible technology which is completely analogous to super-natural powers.
Trust me, I pick up on those little things too.

I never said I was explaining anything or inferring impossible technology which is completely analogous to super-natural powers ( you said that ). So now you're putting words in my mouth in addition to moving the goalposts, and consequently you're just digging yourself in deeper. At this point I suggest we start over so that I can offer you the opportunity to consider a position that will serve you better.

To recap, I suggested that what you claimed to be impossible may not be and I used the example of human flight as a cautionary example about making claims of impossibility. Then I offered some circumstantial evidence, and although that isn't sufficient scientific evidence to qualify as proof, it's sufficient to suggest that the phenomenon may be possible. Now add dozens and dozens of other seemingly sincere reports, and the objection to the possibility quickly becomes unreasonable. Therefore, if you want to remain skeptical and reasonable, then your most rational position on this particular issue is to remain undecided pending further evidence. If you were to do that, then perhaps we might be able to further the discussion by considering ways that material interposition might be possible. Or perhaps we might seek out and discuss more reports that could give us some clues as to what is really happening. On the other hand, simply insisting it's impossible isn't going to get us anywhere. Which path do you prefer? The choice is yours.

 

[Jimi H.]

At one time we could easily disprove that people could fly, then along came Yves Rossy...

The beef started here, because you're at least imprecise. We can still disprove that people can fly. You know it and I know it, and that's not what you meant, but I'm sensing the problem is more than imprecision, so I choose to pick on it: You want to compare things that can't be compared.

Rossy exploits well-established physical facts about the world to fly with technological wings. No problemo.

Assuming that we can make people walk through walls is categorically different from normal physical technology. Because it is not just a matter of building a pair of wings, it's a matter of breaking down the human to reform it somewhere else. Like Jesus made birds of clay. Like real bonafide magic.

So, you explain that we can manipulate particles. But the human is a biological organism with cells and organs, you can't just mess with a being on a particle level, if you want them to go through a wall! Only in sci-fi!

And it's not that I don't like sci-fi and not that I don't like speculating. What I'm saying is what Sagan said, let's not be so open-minded that our brains fall out. Even if easing up on objectivity would free us to speculate about (or believe) anything. At some point, speculation becomes pure noize and a vehicle for abuse, e.g. by cults.

And for the record, everyone: If sleep paralysis is happening now, it also happened 200 years ago and 2000 years ago. So, even if many experienced the effects of sleep paralysis through human history, that doesn't make experiences 'real'. Rather, the continuous reports confound the impression that we are dealing with sleep related effects. The only change in the experience is the cultural interpretation of the 'being' sitting on one's bed, or whatever. So, it used to be trolls or angels or devils, now it's aliens.

This is the rational explanation, and lab experiments have shown the effects to be 'real'. I can only speculate as to why so many participants here don't consider proven effects long before they even consider the reality of what can only be labeled as magic.

 

[Burnt State]

I can only speculate as to why so many participants here don't consider proven effects long before they even consider the reality of what can only be labeled as magic.

I think that there is an immense desire for magic to be real - it is hardwired into wherever our imagination dwells inside the brain. Consequently, forums like this will constantly get caught up in believing in magic, being skeptical about the trick, or wishing it was real but always getting disappointed whenever we discover that the Wizard of Oz is just some dude in a control room pushing levers. I think much of the entire UFO mystery is probably something this simplistic, just not simple enough for our puny human brains to be able to understand the trick yet.

 

[Jeff Davis]

Burnt State,
I signed in this morning to the forum. Read your response post and then spent the morning and early afternoon as I was able to (I'm at work) researching the Cahill case. It's different, that's for sure.

It's interesting to note that PRA never released their final assessment or detailed report findings after making as thorough an investigation of the matter as they did. Weird. I wonder if they were instructed not to do so, and by whom.

These are some very quick thoughts.

1) Many abduction scenarios happen while the abductee themselves are not sleeping. That rules out sleep paralysis. Especially with respect to the cahill case and many, many others as well.

2) Human beings throughout time have historically been physically taken away, reported missing by other people, and then returned hours, days, months, and even years later.

3) Is physicality itself the human being's primary claim to fame, while the abductors are solely energy based? Do we have an ethereal double? An astral body if you will. Is this the mechanism by which abductees are actually manipulated? I myself find this utterly useless as our supposed purpose in these being's plan is to act as a physical incubator or sperm donor. That would seem kind of tough for an astral body to pull off.

 

[Burnt State]

1) Many abduction scenarios happen while the abductee themselves are not sleeping. That rules out sleep paralysis. Especially with respect to the cahill case and many, many others as well.

2) Human beings throughout time have historically been physically taken away, reported missing by other people, and then returned hours, days, months, and even years later.

3) Is physicality itself the human being's primary claim to fame, while the abductors are solely energy based? Do we have an ethereal double? An astral body if you will. Is this the mechanism by which abductees are actually manipulated? I myself find this utterly useless as our supposed purpose in these being's plan is to act as a physical incubator or sperm donor. That would seem kind of tough for an astral body to pull off.

Yes, this feature of abductions taking place while people say that they are completely awake, or out and about driving is very interesting; there's no doubt about it. Sleep paralysis accounts for a large chunk of reportings - it's a natural fit to the frequent elements. But there is definitely something interesting about those where people are awake, and again, for me it's about having other witnesses. Although some cases also deserve to credited with the fact that no individual can gain much, nor do many pursue fame or cash in relation to telling their story. Many will suffer great social ostracization and so i'm really interested in those little known cases that have no gain, only financial loss, social isolation etc. as a consequence to their telling. Because there are a great number of these there's something to be said for that as it is part of a long tradition of missing and then returned people who crossed over to another side. So I'm good with 1) and 2) being important considerations for believing that there is in fact something strange going on and that it has been going on for a large part of human history.

As for 3) oddly enough, i don't buy the astral body theory (though it fits with the reincarnation thing that i am a fan of) even though we don't really have any reports of someone actually seeing someone not be there anymore from the place that they were. The whole entering and exiting of the ship piece is always missing from AP stories (unless you buy into the Cortile affair which strikes me as mostly problematic and plagued by far too many issues. I always feel that there's never anything quite right when the pro and con arguments for the validity of an abduction turns into a war of words, lawsuits, publishing deals etc. ).

As far as the entire incubation, sex thing I'm much more inclined to believe that these specific cases that involve sperm, eggs, hybrid babies and intercourse are much more related to that individual's personality, history and psychological profile. Someone could make an argument for these to be MILAB events with masked memories, but that also strikes me as entirely improbable, though not out of the range of gov't/secret experimentation on the populous. The whole Karla Turner thing has me at odds as the story is just far too fantastic and weird to be just fiction. I lump her into that category reserved for the title, "probably delusional, could be out for personal profit/glory or something really strange is going on that requires more investigation."

 

[Goggs Mackay]

I have no idea if it could work, but the very fact that solid matter is mostly space and even the bits we consider solid, i.e sub-atomic particles, act like waves in some situations, I think at least strongly hints that at least it's not silly to wonder if matter, such as concrete or a metal, couldn't be affected in such a way that some unchanged matter could be allowed to pass through the changed matter. Quantum physics has already conjured up weirder stuff IMO, such as quantum entanglement (q.e.).
Quantum entanglement, to my mind at least, seems either to break the light-speed limit in the passing of information, or shows some sort of connection in a >4th dimensional space? I'm not claiming that even what I've just mentioned was explained correctly or even well, but you know what I am getting at.

Science so often is doing things we didn't dream of recently that I always wonder why people even put theoretical limits on what might be possible in the near or distant future.

 

[mike]

I have no idea if it could work, but the very fact that solid matter is mostly space and even the bits we consider solid, i.e sub-atomic particles, act like waves in some situations, I think at least strongly hints that at least it's not silly to wonder if matter, such as concrete or a metal, couldn't be affected in such a way that some unchanged matter could be allowed to pass through the changed matter. Quantum physics has already conjured up weirder stuff IMO, such as quantum entanglement (q.e.).
Quantum entanglement, to my mind at least, seems either to break the light-speed limit in the passing of information, or shows some sort of connection in a >4th dimensional space? I'm not claiming that even what I've just mentioned was explained correctly or even well, but you know what I am getting at.

Science so often is doing things we didn't dream of recently that I always wonder why people even put theoretical limits on what might be possible in the near or distant future.

Actually the 4th dimensional element is a valid hypothesis, we know the earth is rotating, Phasing out of linear time for a half second then back again could produce an effect that looks like walking through walls.

 

[mike]

Another good case is this one

William B. Gill, an Anglican priest with a mission in Bosinai, Papas New Guinea, observed craft-like UFOs -- one with Humanoid figures on top -- on two consecutive evenings, June 26-27, 1959. About twenty-five natives, including teachers and medical technicians, also observed the phenomena. They "signaled" the humanoids and received an apparent response. This was one of sixty UFO sightings within a few weeks in the New Guinea area.

In 1973 Alien Hynek visited Australia and Papua New Guinea and found six of the witnesses to the Boianai events. They all supported Gill's version of what had happened.

Father Gill / Papua New Guinea Sighting - Papua New Guinea - June 26, 1959 - UFO Evidence

Structured craft with entities, multiple witness'

Now thats not to say this wasnt a secret military craft, Gill makes the very same speculation, but if it wasnt then its compelling evidence for the ETH imo

Father Gill described the movements of the objects, especially the smaller
disks, as very erratic. They sometimes moved rapidly, sometimes slowly,
approaching and receding, changing direction, and at times swinging back
and forth like a pendulum. One object moved away and appeared to descend
toward Wadobuna village, and everyone thought it was going to land. The
Papuana ran down on the beach, but the object swooped up and away over the
mountains, turning red as it disappeared.

When the large object disappeared at 9:30 P.M., Father Gill said it made a
slight wavering motion, then suddenly shot away at tremendous speed,
changing color to red and blue-green, and disappeared across the bay,
vanishing. No sound was heard throughout

UFO Folklore Center

CE-III are extremely rare, but this one
is probably the very best case on record.

 

[boomerang]

It is precisely cases like Gill's--seemingly well documented and credible--that steer me away from a scenario involving ET's riding spaceships like so many crew aboard an ocean going vessel. ET's are often reported as being seen behind large windows or perched atop a hovering craft. This seems unlikely from both a behavioral and technological standpoint. Large two way windows and basking in the breeze smack of scenarios arranged more for the benefit of human observation than alien convention. It's as if something wants to be perceived. But only on its own terms.

 

[Burnt State]

Another good case is this one

Father Gill / Papua New Guinea Sighting - Papua New Guinea - June 26, 1959 - UFO Evidence

Structured craft with entities, multiple witness'

Now thats not to say this wasnt a secret military craft, Gill makes the very same speculation, but if it wasnt then its compelling evidence for the ETH imo

i know this case well and have read quite a bit about it. one of my favourite discussions was an online back forth critique by a skeptic and believer. the skeptic offered up a very interesting notion that what was being witnessed was a temperature inversion reflection of a boat fishing for squid i think it was, and the aliens above waving back were just sailors on the deck. this corresponds with a lot of excellent stories of visual images seen in the sky of other cities, mysterious other places but up in the clouds like a mirage. these are such great stories. however, the details of Gill's description of the craft's departure just does not match the skeptical view.

what is it about all these bizarre Australian cases: there's the Westall landing with multiple children witnesses, the Cahill multiple witness AP event and the Father Gill multiple witness event with aliens standing on the ship waving back - such great stories?!

 

[Burnt State]

It is precisely cases like Gill's--seemingly well documented and credible--that steer me away from a scenario involving ET's riding spaceships like so many crew aboard an ocean going vessel. ET's are often reported as being seen behind large windows or perched atop a hovering craft. This seems unlikely from both a behavioral and technological standpoint. Large two way windows and basking in the breeze smack of scenarios arranged more for the benefit of human observation than alien convention. It's as if something wants to be perceived. But only on its own terms.

its terms seem to involve large doses of sardonic humour at some points.

 

[Bergen]

I felt it didnt really touch that much on actual specific abduction stuff, Instead it turned into a chitchat

 

[Jeff Davis]

It is precisely cases like Gill's--seemingly well documented and credible--that steer me away from a scenario involving ET's riding spaceships like so many crew aboard an ocean going vessel. ET's are often reported as being seen behind large windows or perched atop a hovering craft. This seems unlikely from both a behavioral and technological standpoint. Large two way windows and basking in the breeze smack of scenarios arranged more for the benefit of human observation than alien convention. It's as if something wants to be perceived. But only on its own terms.

I agree, at least partly. ET, just does not seem likely with respect to flying saucers as long as we truly use Occam's Razor to illustrate the likelihood. Not at very least with respect for scientific terms and principles we are in any way currently familiar with.

I also find the entire UFO occupant observation things seemingly designed for display. Of course that's strictly a projection and is what happens when we apply human reason to the mystery of UFOs and precisely why "they" never approach humanity in an open and clear manner. It's the pivotal birth of the trickster mentality which I have always had a serious problem with.

When I force myself to the side of my own programming with respect to projected reason and personification, I see UFOs as being singularity based technology used by members of the same environment we share with those that occupy them. There is no seeming natural specific community that humans share with these beings because of some unknown or confirmed natural specific base difference that make open compatibility a non issue. I believe however that these creatures are perhaps singularity technology themselves and more or less serve to forward the volition of beings we might actually consider to be Gods/Creators. The classic watcher school of thought.

It's also interesting to note that Betty Andreasson via Raymond Fowler's documentation described precisely the same thing as the clergyman in New Guinea. This being with respect to the little guys being out on the craft's ledge walking around while hovering over the ocean, collecting water from below, waving, and performing other tasks as well.

There is nothing new here IMO. It's the exact same strange stuff just being observed from a differing focal history context.