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Kerry set to calm us about Syria ? Or ?...

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ufology said:
Where is the proof that the Syrian military launched a gas attack on orders from the Syrian Government?
  • The Syrian Government let UN inspectors into the area to investigate. That's not the typical actions of a guilty party.
  • Definitive transparent evidence as to who is responsible for the gas attack needs to be produced before and decision on intervention is made by anyone.
  • This is a tragic attack but this attack doesn't qualify as "weapons of mass destruction" as is being hyped. Even a conventional war would be far worse.
  • At this time war on Syria is not warranted. It is their country and their problem to solve.
Click to expand...

As far as that sniper incident who would have more to gain by getting the UNs panties in a bunch?

Being that much of the rebels are made of defectors how do we know that some defecting general didn't help themselves to the stockpile?

Also these stories about the gas that was involved in the recent attacks lacked stabilizers which is needed for long term storage to keep its potency could be related to reports of rebels using said gas in earlier attacks back in july. This could be an indication that the gas could have been made recently by anyone. The fact that it was used on civilians is irrelevant. because we know that all the various tribes and sects have it in for each other anyhow. If the rebels get Barshad out of the picture, it will be no different than Iraq and soon
Egypt. No one will be safe.
 
Its really odd, as others have said, dead is dead does the means of killing them really matter too much ?

I watched an australian news item yesterday that looked at both sides of the issue inside syria.
On the one hand you have the rebels, radical islamics who have been killing christians and wiping out christian villages.
One rebel was filmed eating the heart and liver of a syria soldier in one case.
Then we went to a hotel swimming pool in damascus, Women in bikinis, smoking, drinking, enjoying all the freedoms western women have.
They want syria to remain secular where people are free to make such choices.

It strikes me that if the same scenario were to play out in the west, we would feel well justified in fighting rebels who wanted to strip that freedom and replace it with hard lined islamic sharia law.

That Sarin was used seems evident, but ive yet to see any evidence as to who used it.

Did a regular shell hit a rebel cache of the stuff, plausible
Did the rebels use it to manufacture a crossed red line, plausible
Did the assad regime do it, its plausible too

But as far as i can see no firm proof of any of the scenarios.

As i posted elsewhere Qatar and Saudi want to build a gas pipeline thru syria to compete with Russias sale of gas to Europe.
Qatar and Saudi are funding the rebels, because Assad has said no to this pipeline, this makes him popular with Russia, who in turn support him and his no pipeline policy.
So outside the outrage of chemical weapons use in the 21st century, whats in it for the US ?
Well if Russia loses its gas revenue, thats less money for them to spend on missiles, subs etc ets

But my prediction is that the president has looked at the british example and will use the same mechanism to save face.
Will be able, like Cameron to say well the poeple have spoken i must bow to their wishes, while in the interim get to rattle the sabre of military retribution.

If it is the rebels who are responsible, they will try the trick again.

What concerns me today is reports Israel is doing what they did in the Iraq conflict, that is saying if you dont do anything we will, and if we do it we wont pull any punches, your choice is a limited military response under your direct control. Or we will go in flatten the place once and for all.

Giving the US a choice of two evils the lessor being a US controled response
 
CNN caught lying

The most startling counterpunch to the White House spin remains the Mint Press News report by AP correspondent Dale Gavlak on the spot, in Ghouta, Damascus, with anti-Assad residents stressing that "certain rebels received chemical weapons via the Saudi intelligence chief, Prince Bandar bin Sultan, and were responsible for carrying out the gas attack''.Read more:
Asia Times Online :: US: The indispensable (bombing) nation
 
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flipper said:
Not much is known about the circumstances leading up to the arrest, but the incident took place at a recent Philadelphia No War with Syria rally. At the outset of the video, Yates is seen trying to reason with four park rangers, wondering why she’s being asked to leave the place she’s standing since she’s not violating any laws.

WATCH: Iraq war veteran and peace activist aggressively arrested for standing under a tree
Click to expand...


I have a feeling there will be more and more events like this. Americans do not want another war. If there was some peaceful protests around my area I would join in a heartbeat.
 
We may change our tune when the 1400 number goes up to 14,000 in one day or perhaps 140,000...some red lines are only discovered after the fact.

Regardless of your position on American chronic interventionism, the videos of children lying dead from gas attacks was disturbing enough for me to want the US and the world to do something. Of course that leads to all kinds of problems in the hypocrisy department.

I consider myself in some respects part of the staunch anti-War group--but even I cannot allow myself to entertain the logic that such behavior should go unpunished. Surely you must know...if you read anything on population genetics, game theory and evolutionary stable strategies:

For every cheat or murderer unpunished, you have a sucker
A league of suckers will allow murderers, despots and thieves to thrive
Only by retaliation (Tit for tat - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) can you rid yourselves of the thieves and enemies of peace.
Suckers actually aid the proliferation of thieves.
And finally...the suckers are often indistinguishable from the retaliators when there are no thieves or cheats around.

So let the entire world be full of suckers and thieves...nature will sort it out eventually.






 
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The notion that we must do something in response to any and every atrocity committed on planet earth seems predicated on the notion of American hegemony: that we are indeed the world's policeman. This policy is not only historically selective in terms of which "wrongs" we intend to "right", but carries with it inevitable laws of unintended consequence. Whatever we do may ultimately make a given situation worse instead of better. IMO, "must do something" belongs in the same trash bin as "sending a message". These fuzzy concepts have an uncanny way of preceding the hard reality of failed nation building. Not to mention fostering the kind of legacy of resentment western colonial nations have ostensibly worked so hard to resolve.

Perhaps we should surprise both America and the world by simply bombing no one for a change. At this point, the psychological shock value alone would be enough to confuse whatever enemies we have.
 
boomerang said:
The notion that we must do something in response to any and every atrocity committed on planet earth seems predicated on the notion of American hegemony: that we are indeed the world's policeman. This policy is not only historically selective in terms of which "wrongs" we intend to "right", but carries with it inevitable laws of unintended consequence. Whatever we do may ultimately make a given situation worse instead of better. IMO, "must do something" belongs in the same trash bin as "sending a message". These fuzzy concepts have an uncanny way of preceding the hard reality of failed nation building. Not to mention fostering the kind of legacy of resentment western colonial nations have ostensibly worked so hard to resolve.

Perhaps we should surprise both America and the world by simply bombing no one for a change. At this point, the psychological shock value alone would be enough to confuse whatever enemies we have.
Click to expand...

Do something means precisely that we should take out the military hardware that is assisting the Syrian regime in killing its own people.
That "legacy of resentment" comes regardless if we intervene or not.

I have some sympathies regarding us "not being the world's police" -- unfortunately, the very extent of American enterprise interests (and you'd better know what they are) shadows the very areas you claim we shouldn't police. Well then...perhaps we should bugger out all enterprise from all foreign lands...only then will we be able to claim "we're not the world's police" on moral grounds. But as it stands right now, this naive isolation does not exist.
 
Has anyone got proof that the Syrian military on orders of
the Syrian Government are actually responsible?


Not just evidence that gas weapons were used.
The Syrian Government still denies they ordered any gas attack.​
 
ufology said:
Where is the proof that the Syrian military launched a gas attack on orders from the Syrian Government?
  • The Syrian Government let UN inspectors into the area to investigate. That's not the typical actions of a guilty party.
  • Definitive transparent evidence as to who is responsible for the gas attack needs to be produced before and decision on intervention is made by anyone.
  • This is a tragic attack but this attack doesn't qualify as "weapons of mass destruction" as is being hyped. Even a conventional war would be far worse.
  • At this time war on Syria is not warranted. It is their country and their problem to solve.
Click to expand...
I thought that this was a good juxtaposing of Kerry's assertions (really good acting) with MARK SEIBEL's questioning of those facts: Here is the start of the interview:
The holes that we identified in the piece really have to do with contradictions between what Secretary of State Kerry has said in his public announcements and what other partners, if you use that phrase, in the Syrian issue have also reported. And, basically, what we identified is that when it came to questions of the efficacy of a U.N. investigation or the number of people killed in the conflict, or even the U.S. rendition of what happened in what order, there are contradictions. Do they completely undercut the case? I don’t know. If you believe that conclusions are based on facts, then the question becomes, do we have the facts? And that’s—you know, that’s an issue.
As U.S. Pushes For Syria Strike, Questions Loom over Obama Claims in Chemical Attack | Democracy Now!
 
boomerang said:
The notion that we must do something in response to any and every atrocity committed on planet earth seems predicated on the notion of American hegemony: that we are indeed the world's policeman. This policy is not only historically selective in terms of which "wrongs" we intend to "right", but carries with it inevitable laws of unintended consequence. Whatever we do may ultimately make a given situation worse instead of better. IMO, "must do something" belongs in the same trash bin as "sending a message". These fuzzy concepts have an uncanny way of preceding the hard reality of failed nation building. Not to mention fostering the kind of legacy of resentment western colonial nations have ostensibly worked so hard to resolve.

Perhaps we should surprise both America and the world by simply bombing no one for a change. At this point, the psychological shock value alone would be enough to confuse whatever enemies we have.
Click to expand...

I really laughed at your last two lines.
David Swanson says " there is no way to PEACE, PEACE is the only way"
Talk Nation Radio | Let's Try Democracy
 
flipper said:
I thought that this was a good juxtaposing of Kerry's assertions (really good acting) with MARK SEIBEL's questioning of those facts: Here is the start of the interview:
The holes that we identified in the piece really have to do with contradictions between what Secretary of State Kerry has said in his public announcements and what other partners, if you use that phrase, in the Syrian issue have also reported ...
Click to expand...

Thanks for posting the link. Again we still see no evidence. We're only told there is evidence. But that's just not good enough. Show us the copies of the orders, or the recordings, or the videos ( whatever it is ). In the meantime it's all unsubstantiated allegations. We've heard the Syrian Government deny publicly that they are responsible, so proving them wrong publicly would really make them look bad, yet we see nothing along these lines. Why? The Islamics are known to use human shields and unconventional tactics. It's not inconceivable that this is a ploy by sympathizers to the ousted government to get the western powers to do their dirty work. Unless we can see this alleged evidence and judge for ourselves, I don't think that there is sufficient reason justify an attack.
 
Michael Allen said:
Regardless of your position on American chronic interventionism, the videos of children lying dead from gas attacks was disturbing enough for me to want the US and the world to do something. Of course that leads to all kinds of problems in the hypocrisy department.
Click to expand...

I totally agree, i see these pics and my wavering view of this mess crystalises into one like yours

But then i see pics like this

pic.jpg


with comments like this

Imagine the audacity of a man who has killed hundreds of children with his Predator Drones, moralizing over an alleged chemical weapons attack.
Click to expand...

And i too get the memo from the hypocrisy department.

We have Assad allegedly killing kids with poison gas and the Pres allegedly killing kids with drones

The Bureau has identified credible reports of 168 children killed in seven years of CIA drone strikes in Pakistan’s tribal areas. These children would account for 44% of the minimum figure of 385 civilians reported killed by the attacks.
Unicef, the United Nations children’s agency, said in response to the findings: ‘Even one child death from drone missiles or suicide bombings is one child death too many.’
Click to expand...
Over 160 children reported among drone deaths | The Bureau of Investigative Journalism
 
An Interview with William Engdahl - War in Syria & Manufactured Conflicts

William will discuss the serious situation in Syria and the underlying reasons behind the expansion of the empire into yet another Middle Eastern country. He explains how a radicalized version of Islam has been created and used to manage the war on terror. Engdahl describes the dire situation in Europe, with mass immigration and radicalized Islam, causing much conflict and internal struggle. Finally, he outlines the bigger geopolitical chessboard and where he sees the pieces moving if a greater strike on Syria is initiated.

Red Ice Radio - William Engdahl - War in Syria & Manufactured Conflicts
 
mike said:
I totally agree, i see these pics and my wavering view of this mess crystalises into one like yours

But then i see pics like this

pic.jpg


with comments like this



And i too get the memo from the hypocrisy department.

We have Assad allegedly killing kids with poison gas and the Pres allegedly killing kids with drones


Over 160 children reported among drone deaths | The Bureau of Investigative Journalism
Click to expand...

I don't think there's an "allegedly" to it...Assad killed his own people. This is consistent with the very long history of the brutality of this regime.
Sorry Mike, I have to draw a line here--this is not something I am really willing to debate or argue about unfortunately, it is just too horrible...

To the others: this is one of the few things that I am, unfortunately, very uncompromising and unwilling to actually entertain any appearance of "open-minded" debate.

Hama massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
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