Matthew Williams, Circlemaker

[trainedobserver]

I'm not sure if I remember another thread, post-show that has generated this number of posts quite so quickly. Obviously a powerful show for those on both sides of the 'field'

Well, I certainly hope that they get Matthew on as a repeat guest. I can think of no one else that can give you the inside scoop on the crop circle scene like Williams can. Williams is to Talbott like Expat is to Hoagland.

 

[manxman]

once you watch that, and transplant that to the location and camera angle, and sun above and behind both, dont think theres much doubt, the flat spots in the crop [windblown] has the most rodents using them, as the seed heads are on the ground.
Plus the very windy conditions meant it could hold station and listen, they hunt by sound as much as eyesight, the bird in the vid above is working that patch listening on a windless day, yet can still fly very slow at times, the guys who enter the top of the field spook it, they aint in the vid at the start, they walk down into the circle as he films his UFOs that they spook..

a couple of other things, the greening effect is just that, it says he filmed them 29july.

so it was spring sown wheat, winter sown barley or wheat is yellow and dry by august and mostly combined, that crop was immature and had another 4 weeks in it, so it was spring wheat, he was filming in a eastly direction, with a westerly wind, the sun was behind and low, with a typical summer evening glow behind him imo, it was filmed between 7pm and 9pm, for the sun to be in that position, at that time of year, quite simply it made the bird stick out like a stallions cock.

Could be a camera effect aswell

that crop could be winter wheat and yellow, yet the camera has darkened it, and picked up the yellow reflected sunlight of the off white plummage, and made it stand out more than it actually did, if everything was its proper shade, if ya folla.

and the reason the pair were out together that early, which is common, is that they would of had upto 6 chicks to feed, thats why when he missed he was straight up in the air again and over another patch, theres so much prey about, not like the winter bird who tried longer to feret out the voles from the winter undergrowth in the video above as food is scarce.

heres one hunting on sound only.
[not a barn owl granted, but no difference

 

[mike]

This is quite interesting, and I've pondered something similar myself.

But I'd call your idea 'digital' (yes or no / 1 or 0), I don't see any reason to bring quantum mysticism into the equation.


Yes, but does it need to stretch for generations? I'd argue that the critical mass was there in the 50ies/60ies, people were 'prepped' at that point. The number of spectacular events seems to have gone down since then. At least, that's what it looks like to me.

In general, the 'believer' in me fears that Cold War paranoia could have thwarted open contact because military types like to shoot first and ask questions afterwards. Who'd want to talk to folks on a planet where all you get is a bullet in the face!?

Yeah quantum is one of those words that has a number of contexts, i was refering to this

What makes quantum computers powerful is the nature of the bit. Ordinary computers have bits that are 1 or 0, stored in the current in a circuit or the alignment of magnetic fields on a disk. Due to the weirdness of quantum physics, quantum bits, called qubits, can be both 0 and 1 at the same time.

If and its only an IF, some CC's are a form of contact, it may be they need to be ambigious to satisfy some condition we are not privey to. Hence my coining of the phrase quantum telegraph, they need to be both 0 and 1 at the same time, rather than one or the other

As for the length of the prelude it might take thousands of years for all we know, the condition trigger for moving from the prelude to the next phase may be more to do with us than them

 

[mike]

I heard you say this before, it sounds extremely morbid, akin to a Dracula-story, or something similar from gothic sci-fi horror fantasy. Why even go there, that's my most immediate question?

Because its a valid hypothesis in regards to the ET question, there are multiple sources within the genre that refer to it. and IF thats whats happening it needs to be considered as a possible explanation/motivation factor

Dracula is of course a supernatural character, the PBH relies on technological mechansims, not supernatural ones

Paul Davies, a British-born theoretical physicist, cosmologist, astrobiologist and Director of the Beyond Center for Fundamental Concepts in Science and Co-Director of the Cosmology Initiative at Arizona State University, says in his new book The Eerie Silence that any aliens exploring the universe will be AI-empowered machines. Not only are machines better able to endure extended exposure to the conditions of space, but they have the potential to develop intelligence far beyond the capacity of the human brain.
"I think it very likely – in fact inevitable – that biological intelligence is only a transitory phenomenon, a fleeting phase in the evolution of the universe," Davies writes. "If we ever encounter extraterrestrial intelligence, I believe it is overwhelmingly likely to be post-biological in nature."

So if for the sake of argument ET is making some crop circles, and ET is post biological, it may simply not be willing or able to deal with us as biologicals, indeed the only "component" of value to such a species might be our conciousness.

London, England -- By the middle of the 21st century it will be possible to download your brain to a supercomputer, according to a leading thinker on the future.
Ian Pearson, head of British Telecom's futurology unit, told the UK's Observer newspaper that the rapid advances in computing power would make cyber-immortality a reality within 50 years.

CNN.com - Brain downloads 'possible by 2050' - May 23, 2005

In this context "ET" may not want to shake hands with us, if the component they are after is simply our conciousness, they can modify that without actually shaking hands and saying hello.
Indeed it may be doing so would spoil the very resource they are after

 

[mike]

Heres the thing, people try and force an explanation, its either real or a hoax 1 or zero.
If its real, then again we try and force it into a box, why would aliens come all this way and then communicate via pictures in crops.

I'll deal with the pictogram aspect first.

The oldest known cave paintings date back 40,000 years with some conjecture they may even have been done by neanderthals

Some theories hold that cave paintings may have been a way of communicating with others,

Cave painting - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So socially and possibly even genetically the authors of these works are to a degree "alien" to us.
Yet these images, these pictograms still "speak" to us.
The authors would have spoken a language long dead, and yet the connection can still be made.

Modern grafitti does the same thing

A single image can convey meaning without words.

So i dont personally find pictograms to be proof it cant be ET since the format is unsophisticated.
A picture can indeed say a thousand words as the old adage goes.

The adage"A picture is worth a thousand words" refers to the notion that a complex idea can be conveyed with just a single still image. It also aptly characterizes one of the main goals of visualization, namely making it possible to absorb large amounts of data quickly.

A picture is worth a thousand words - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But i accept that for some it makes no sense, case closed

Me, i prefer to keep thinking about it, to try and find a scenario that does make sense.

For example it may be no more than a sophisticated version of that most enjoyable past time of combining a cat and a laser pointer

Or simply an older brother/sister pranking his/her younger less experienced sibling for the fun of it

For me the single factor that makes CC's case unclosed....... Is the fact that the human creators are reporting paranormal activity associated with their own activitys.

Still more there, than meets the eye imo

 

[Muadib]

If and its only an IF, some CC's are a form of contact, it may be they need to be ambigious to satisfy some condition we are not privey to.

I just have to ask Mike, and I'm not trying to start an argument, I'm genuinely curious as to your answer. If someone was to present the above argument to you in relation to say, the bible, that it had to be ambiguous and get some things wrong just to satisfy some condition that we aren't privy to, would you accept that argument? It just strikes me as an argument made by someone who wants to believe in something, not because it makes any logical sense. I realize that you aren't going as far as your typical religious defender and you're leaving room for doubt and I applaud that, I'm just curious why you would be so hardcore in one area and yet so open in another. You know my views on the subject of religion, so I know you realize that I'm not trying to defend it, I just find this whole thing interesting.

 

[Constance]

Those are birds, as far as I can see. It's certainly not evidence of anything strange.

This illustrates why I keep pressing you to back up your claims.

Did you read Steve Alexander's comments on the video (quoted in my post), pointing out that the farmer driving a tractor in the distant field saw the BOL, described it as the size of a beachball and flashing with light, and that the tractor shut down when the BOL was closest to him? It does seem, doesn't it, that an anomalous and sizeable flying anomaly generating EM effects on machinery was what SA filmed, not a bird. Likely your aware that the same kind of effects have been reported by thousands of people driving cars and trucks in the vicinity of other ufos (unidentified aerial phenomena). I'm not fantasizing, just reporting. Take it or leave it.

 

[Constance]

Interesting, I wonder if we could find similar footage that we know is of birds causing the same type of effect. Seems totally plausible to me but I'm not willing to state that I know for certain it's a bird, I don't believe I have the expertise to make that call.

Can't have been a bird given the farmer's description of it in his close encounter with it and the EM effect on the tractor.

 

[Constance]

I have to agree with Jimi on this one, you can't just accuse the man of being a government disinformation agent and then tell us all to go read a book to get filled in, if you make that kind of accusation you need to back it up with facts, otherwise why should we take it seriously? Is everyone who disagrees with you a disinfo agent, or just Matthew?

I see the grounds of your objection, but 'facts' concerning security agents and their personnel are difficult to come by. Since it's the history of manipulated events in Wiltshire and perception-control activities by CCmakers.org that had led many cc researchers and others to suspect that hoaxing spokespersons might be working with or for MI5, all I can do is point to the sources where you can read the history. I can't reproduce the history in a message board post. Sorry.

 

[Muadib]

Can't have been a bird given the farmer's description of it in his close encounter with it and the EM effect on the tractor.

Only if you're willing to take their word for it, and since I don't know them, I have to rely on objective evidence and there is no objective evidence of EM effects other than the tractor stopping for about 2 seconds which could have been nothing more than the farmer stopping the tractor for any number of reasons. They don't even provide the name of this supposed farmer and they don't interview him on the video provided, I have to ask why they wouldn't take such a small simple step to corroborate their story? Not to mention, in your typical UFO account of EM effects, the effects are almost always present while the object is still within sight, yet in this case, the truck seems to stop for 2 seconds and then start right up again like nothing happened. I don't even see how you could say that the engine cut with any certainty, the guy could've just applied the breaks because a squirrel ran past him for all we know.

 

[Muadib]

I see the grounds of your objection, but 'facts' concerning security agents and their personnel are difficult to come by. Since it's the history of manipulated events in Wiltshire and perception-control activities by CCmakers.org that had led many cc researchers and others to suspect that hoaxing spokespersons might be working with or for MI5, all I can do is point to the sources where you can read the history. I can't reproduce the history in a message board post. Sorry.

Nobody is asking you to, we're just asking for your summarized opinion on the facts or events or whatever that lead you to believe that this guy is an MI5 agent, we don't need the whole history of CC research to get that certainly? If you can't provide your reasoning, I don't know why you would expect anyone to believe what you're saying or why you would even mention it in the first place, it's extremely bad form to accuse someone of something and then refuse to illustrate the reasons for your accusations.

 

[Wade]

It appears mr. williams has joined the forum, welcome aboard.

 

[Constance]

Because its a valid hypothesis in regards to the ET question, there are multiple sources within the genre that refer to it. and IF thats whats happening it needs to be considered as a possible explanation/motivation factor

I haven't had time yet to read threads in which the phrase 'post biological hypothesis' occur, though your use of the word 'harvesting' might have led me to suspect something very violent and intrusive. I'll look into those threads because I want to understand what you're talking about in them. My initial interest in your reference was triggered by the focus on 'consciousness' (in itself a great mystery but a tractable one based on an analysis of physical experience as the critical link between the mind and what the mind can understand of the nature of reality. I've long speculated that what aliens might be interested in most about humans is the nature of human consciousness, especially if they themselves are machine intelligences having some residual sense of what naturally evolved, organic, conscious experience feels like..

 

[mike]

I just have to ask Mike, and I'm not trying to start an argument, I'm genuinely curious as to your answer. If someone was to present the above argument to you in relation to say, the bible, that it had to be ambiguous and get some things wrong just to satisfy some condition that we aren't privy to, would you accept that argument? It just strikes me as an argument made by someone who wants to believe in something, not because it makes any logical sense. I realize that you aren't going as far as your typical religious defender and you're leaving room for doubt and I applaud that, I'm just curious why you would be so hardcore in one area and yet so open in another. You know my views on the subject of religion, so I know you realize that I'm not trying to defend it, I just find this whole thing interesting.

No thats a fair question

My defense would be that im not positing any absolutes, im not claiming as bible adherants do CC's are real and are made by aliens.
To my mind im doing the same thing i do in religious threads, proposing alternate explanations to those with an absolute opinion

Ive often heard the phrase more proof for UFO's than god, and tbh its an opinion i subscribe to
In considering the question "do ET's make crop circles", we dont need to invoke any superstitious or supernatural mechanisms for it to be potentially true.

So yes if you were to ask me which is likely and which is not "is god real" vs "could ET's be making some CC's" im going to choose the latter as more likely, simply because it doesnt require any supernatural mechanism for it to be possible.

The religious claim the bible is proof god exists, im not claiming wheat crops are proof ET's use them to make circles.

You are quite correct to point out the unbalanced approach it seems i take when comparing these two examples, im guilty as charged.
But it comes from weighing the balance of probabilities. i do tend to favour explanations that dont require a supernatural mechanism

 

[mike]

Nobody is asking you to, we're just asking for your summarized opinion on the facts or events or whatever that lead you to believe that this guy is an MI5 agent, we don't need the whole history of CC research to get that certainly? If you can't provide your reasoning, I don't know why you would expect anyone to believe what you're saying or why you would even mention it in the first place, it's extremely bad form to accuse someone of something and then refuse to illustrate the reasons for your accusations.

Its been a part of the picture for a long time.

A google of MI5 crop circles will throw up plenty to read

for example

British Military Intelligence MI5 posted recruitment | Alien Scalpel

And of course the aptly named "mirage" men

One possible answer to that question can be found in Mark Pilkington's new book 'Mirage Men: A Journey in Disinformation, Paranoia and UFOs' which hits the bookshelves this week. It charts Mark and circlemaker John Lundberg's 6 year Odyssey hanging out with intelligence agents, psychological warfare specialists and disinformation operatives in America to try and get to the heart of the UFO subject.

Between 1991 and 1994 Nick Pope (pictured right) worked at a division of the Ministry of Defence called Secretariat (Air Staff)2a and was given the job of investigating the UFO phenomenon. In his article 'Crop Circles - An Official History' Nick talks about military and government interest in the crop circle phenomenon, including questions asked in parliament, why military aircraft have often been seen over crop circles and plans for covert military surveillance of crop circle sites.

Well, it looks like veteran crop circle researcher Colin Andrews (pictured right) might be forced to go get a real job!
If all else fails maybe Colin could join MI5's psy-ops department and retrain as a crop circle maker...

¤ c i r c l e m a k e r s ¤

Now MI5 have been interested in CC's since WW2, when they were thought to be used to direct German bombers and otherwise provide coded intel, but there was a good case made (cant find the link) regarding circlemakers links and funding via MI5, including rental propertys paid for by MI5 used by the principles of circlemakers.

Ive already waxed lyrically about this in other threads in regards to it possibly being the "spartacus gambit" at play, ie bury the real spartacus, with a multitude of fake ones in order to obscure him

And its in that context i also look for explanations of Lundbergs own musings

Our work generates response, often from other circlemakers, and can sometimes act to catalyse a wide range of paranormal events. I still believe there is a genuine phenomenon, but I now also believe that we're a part of it.

Still not sure how this claim by a circlemaker fits the spartacus gambit, maybe their funding had the plug pulled and they are now saying this stuff as payback to their paymasters.

“Curiouser and curiouser!” Cried Alice

 

[mike]

I haven't had time yet to read threads in which the phrase 'post biological hypothesis' occur, though your use of the word 'harvesting' might have led me to suspect something very violent and intrusive. I'll look into those threads because I want to understand what you're talking about in them. My initial interest in your reference was triggered by the focus on 'consciousness' (in itself a great mystery but a tractable one based on an analysis of physical experience as the critical link between the mind and what the mind can understand of the nature of reality. I've long speculated that what aliens might be interested in most about humans is the nature of human consciousness, especially if they themselves are machine intelligences having some residual sense of what naturally evolved, organic, conscious experience feels like..

Sounds like we are on the same page

 

[mike]

John LundbergWe revealed in the television documentary “Crop Circles: The Hidden Truth” that Lundberg was probably recruited by MI5 in 1992. Since then he has been paid by British Intelligence continually. We believe that due to the anomalies about the property where he lives, MI5 have also been providing him with free lodgings in London since around 1995.

Richplanet.net - MI5 Psy Ops Operatives

By the late nineties, I had become very friendly with another mutual friend of Roy
Dutton, Robert Hulse. In 2000, I persuaded Robert to join me in a Wiltshire visit to
experience the wonder of the crop circles and we quickly teamed up to closely
examine as many crop formations as we could, with the prime objective to
determine which were genuine from the man made circles. With a gradual
increasing disappointment over the past ten years or more, we came to the same
conclusion as had Colin Andrews, in 2000, that the majority now were deliberately
being produced to deliberately ‘muddy the water’ and to confuse the crop circle
visitors, and more importantly, convince the public at large, that ALL the crop
formations were man made hoaxes.
Robert and I had long held belief that the principle circle making team, The Circle
Makers, headed by John Lunberg, had backing and financial support and
‘encouragement’ from the security services at large

John Lundberg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Matthew Williams]

Chris you just summed up this entire interview completely!
So, we should take his word when he says he has made a CC without one iota of evidence? Yet any and all researchers are tin foil hat wearing basket cases...because a former customs officer, who's principal job was filing away paper work and who curses like a sailor is completely trust worthy???

Re using one researcher to trick another. If you have embroiled yourself in crop circles for long enough it becomes obvious you cant simply tell crop circle researchers beforehand that you are making a circle and expect them to judge it fairly. They will always say "that is rubbish and nothing like the *real* thing". Where if you do not tell them beforehand and wait for the to declare a circle as man made later and provide proof then thy cry foul and say that they are trying to be undermined. So we as circlemakers "cant win" against that type of bent "science". So generally if you want to prove your point then someone has to be in on it but there will be casualties from the researchers who will get egg on their faces who simply dont want to see the truth until they have it rudely shoved in their faces - upon which they will always make excuses and usually play the "dont trust those govt agent horrible evil circlemaker types" which often wins favour with their believer crowds. We have tried it the nice way... all the way through to the rude ways to help illustrate to these people that it is us at work out in the fields but it is like walking through treacle trying to even speak to these researchers and getting them to understand or admit to what we are saying being the truth... well Colin is one of the most honest our there. There are a few others. It is actually very sad to have to resort to these measures to get through to them - which they will never accept after the fact because most cannot admit they were wrong.

I just listened to the interview with MW. It was a well-laundered version of the history of crop circles and of the organized hoaxing program in Wiltshire centered at Circlemakers dort org

I actually didn't state what I thought about the topic. I personally don't believe ET and friends(if they actually exist) flew through time and space and then only to try and communicate with us via a wheat field.

I don't know what crop circles are 100%...you don't either for that matter. Are many of them created by humans..yes it's been well documented. What I just can't stomach is Mr Williams all too convenient story telling without ANY evidence of the crop making.

I'm not questioning the fact that crop circles are created by aliens, I'm questioning why Mr Williams after the year 2000. as he says by his own admission, stopped making circles, has continued to vehemently deny the existence of the alien connection between CC creation? He says in his video to the people in the audience, I've waited so long to reveal the truth about crop circles and I think 10 years is long enough for me to do so....but in 2oo2 he hosted the media and anyone else that wantéd to listen to him to a "live" show divulging the "secrets" of the CC community?

what about this little tidbit he got wrong...



Read the whole article here


I take a stab at it for you...he has made a business out of doing the rounds and riding the "skeptic" wave presenting his "truths" to people who have drunk the same cool aid as he has. He is no different to any of the nutjobs doing the same on the other side of the "believers" camp.

MW hardly mentions that core group, and indeed he's never been part of their 'inner circle', though he might be employed by the same people who have employed the core group (not only to hoax crop circles but to produce disinformation concerning crop circles and cc research and to add to existing disinformation concerning ufo history).

I am sorry i must deny what you have said here that I do provide evidence of making circles. Many Tv crews have been out with us at night in the complete dark whilst we have worked and yes OK in the TV shows you only see seconds of the work we did, but we have shown us working many times. This is available on my channel for all to see. I have also made circles in secret and then provided the footage afterwards to prove researchers were claiming these circles to be "alien" or "non-man made" in origin which proves they get it wrong. So it is a bit un-researched to make a statement that I dont provide proof of what I say. I have made it my lifes work for 20 years to help people understand what is going on. I have even recreated circles from the past on request for Colin Andrews.

 

[Constance]

Only if you're willing to take their word for it, and since I don't know them, I have to rely on objective evidence and there is no objective evidence of EM effects other than the tractor stopping for about 2 seconds which could have been nothing more than the farmer stopping the tractor for any number of reasons. They don't even provide the name of this supposed farmer and they don't interview him on the video provided, I have to ask why they wouldn't take such a small simple step to corroborate their story? Not to mention, in your typical UFO account of EM effects, the effects are almost always present while the object is still within sight, yet in this case, the truck seems to stop for 2 seconds and then start right up again like nothing happened. I don't even see how you could say that the engine cut with any certainty, the guy could've just applied the breaks because a squirrel ran past him for all we know.

I understand where you're coming from and it's natural for you to doubt the word of people you don't know. I'm persuaded that Steve Alexander is an honest person based on five years of observing his interactions in public forums with people from both sides of the cc debate. I've also read their opinions about him when he's been off-line. My impression is that he is widely respected in Wiltshire based on his more than twenty years of interaction with cc researchers and hoaxers.

 

[Matthew Williams]

I just listened to the interview with MW. It was a well-laundered version of the history of crop circles and of the organized hoaxing program in Wiltshire centered at Circlemakers org. MW hardly mentions that core group, and indeed he's never been part of their 'inner circle', though he might be employed by the same people who have employed the core group (not only to hoax crop circles but to produce disinformation concerning crop circles and cc research and to add to existing disinformation concerning ufo history).

We are not paid to make crop circles. The team you mention is one of the few who have gained paid work from Ad agencies. I do not like their approach to how they promote themselves although they do produce nice circles. They have almost stopped making circles for no money now. They do not represent the many teams of unpaid artists who do it for the love of. Infact they seem to not credit other teams as existing as this would shine the light of publicity away from them.