Michael Shermer debunked by Astrologer on his own show!

[imjohn]

Little secret is if a creationist offered the same challenge that Jimmy Randi offers to the paranormal for proof of evolution it couldn't be proven.

Yes, it can be proven, and has been proven many times which is why it is a theory rather than a hypothesis.

 

[tyder001]

It has not been "Proven" it has been shown to be the "best" and most likely theory of biological life on the planet. I can still (didn't say I belive em) find many scientist (yes they do have an agenda) that would be able to shoot holes and like Randi deny you the payment. Also, while I honestly do believe in the process of evolution, I do not beleive the universe is pointless or souless. But, that's a whole "nother" discussion.

 

[trainedobserver]

While all of the above do not constitute the type of proof you require to acknowledge any practical application of astrology it does show that persons in positions of power have and still do use astrology for decision making.

People in positions of power and influence are often superstitious and irrational because they are human beings just like the rest of us. Their use of astrology does not validate it in any way whatsoever. Gandi drank some of his own urine each day. Arthur Conan Doyle believed that fairies had been photographed. The examples are endless of otherwise intelligent people being taken in by superstition and utter nonsense.

Everything that you presented in response to my question was hearsay, rumor, opinion, and conjecture which in no way provided examples (how hard would it be if they actually existed?) of how astrology has provided any significant contributions to medicine, government, or anything else. It's a simple thing to do. For example anyone who cares to can give you numerous examples of how the various sciences have provided significant contributions to medicine, government, and human society. It requires absolutely no assumptions or belief in anything whatsoever.

 

[tyder001]

Also, not being a smart ass but you misunderstood my post. I didn't say that the Theory of Evolution is false. I said that if a zealot gave a challenge for one million dollars to prove it to him/her that you couldn't do it. It's a con game. Randi is a con. Has he done good work? Sure. Is he a zealot? Sure. Has he been completely honest and nuetral in "creating" his worldview? Hell No! So, that's all I was saying. The book that everybody seems to either hate or love has an interesting point: wisdom is known of all her children. Also, people heap teachers to their own ears! Sounds about right.

 

[The Pair of Cats]

People in positions of power and influence are often superstitious and irrational because they are human beings just like the rest of us. Their use of astrology does not validate it in any way whatsoever. Gandi drank some of his own urine each day. Arthur Conan Doyle believed that fairies had been photographed. The examples are endless of otherwise intelligent people being taken in by superstition and utter nonsense.

So that makes astrology invalid does it? What a bizarre statement. Any use by someone who thinks that it works validates it. Maybe not to you. There is no point in trying to validate astrology to you because your mind is already made up about it. Was Ghandi any less of a person because he drank his own urine? Are you asking me to dismiss all of his great works because of that? So are we to declare then that:
"Ghandi, the man, who by peaceful protest, bought independance to the great country of India from the British will be stripped of his legendary status because it was found that he had a habit of drinking his own urine!"
And people, you should boycott Arthur Conan Doyles books because he once believed that alleged fairy pix were real. Should we also shun anyyone else who uses astrology just becaue some think it's a joke?
It must really irk you that people use astrology and other divination methods. You seem to want to denigrate them and attack them for it. There's no need for you to do that.
Just because you don't believe in it doesn't mean others don't or shouldn't. To do so smacks of arrogance and ignorance. You have obviously never studied the subject in any comprehensive way yet you feel the need to make pronouncements about it.
But of course they are your opinions and you or more than welcome to share them with us. They don't make you correct though
I think it is better to say "to each their own!"

Everything that you presented in response to my question was hearsay, rumor, opinion, and conjecture which in no way provided examples (how hard would it be if they actually existed?) of how astrology has provided any significant contributions to medicine, government, or anything else. It's a simple thing to do. For example anyone who cares to can give you numerous examples of how the various sciences have provided significant contributions to medicine, government, and human society. It requires absolutely no assumptions or belief in anything whatsoever.

The fact that kings and queens used astrologers is an undisbuted fact. And of course they used them to make decisions and policy. Some of the quotes attributed may be in question, i agree, but not all.::

The Shermer experiment which i presented showed that he could not prove that astrology was bunk because his results showed a 77% accuracy rate (a better than chance result) which meant that he actually helped validate it not discredit it. The people who received the readings gave more than a reasonable credence to it. Of course it may be that his experiment was a sloppy attempt at debunking which may or may not have been a true reflection of his abilities as a scientist in which case he should be slammed for being unscientific and inept and largely condemmed as a pseudosceptic.

 

[imjohn]

It has not been "Proven" it has been shown to be the "best" and most likely theory of biological life on the planet. I can still (didn't say I belive em) find many scientist (yes they do have an agenda) that would be able to shoot holes and like Randi deny you the payment. Also, while I honestly do believe in the process of evolution, I do not beleive the universe is pointless or souless. But, that's a whole "nother" discussion.

Hmmmm. So, if there is no proof of evolution, please explain the large variety of dog breeds. Please explain how the horse changed from a 3-foot tall animal to the animal we know today. Please explain the various lab experiments it is possible to do with creatures from bacteria to fruit flies which prove evolution.

 

[tyder001]

Reading comprehension is a wonderful thing.

Back off man I'm a scientist!

 

[imjohn]

Also, not being a smart ass but you misunderstood my post. I didn't say that the Theory of Evolution is false. I said that if a zealot gave a challenge for one million dollars to prove it to him/her that you couldn't do it. It's a con game. Randi is a con. Has he done good work? Sure. Is he a zealot? Sure. Has he been completely honest and nuetral in "creating" his worldview? Hell No! So, that's all I was saying. The book that everybody seems to either hate or love has an interesting point: wisdom is known of all her children. Also, people heap teachers to their own ears! Sounds about right.

It's hard to prove a point by using a bad example.

 

[The Pair of Cats]

Hmmmm. So, if there is no proof of evolution, please explain the large variety of dog breeds. Please explain how the horse changed from a 3-foot tall animal to the animal we know today. Please explain the various lab experiments it is possible to do with creatures from bacteria to fruit flies which prove evolution.

Humans have been interbreeding dogs and other animals for centuries. Even now you have your "labradoodles" and other designer dogs. Certain breed types were created to suit the needs of the local humans. Cows were once significantly smaller than what they are now. It's possible the same interbreeding was responsible for the growth in the size of the horse.

 

[imjohn]

Reading comprehension is a wonderful thing.

Back off man I'm a scientist!

LMAO That is too funny.

---------- Post added at 05:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:00 PM ----------

Humans have been interbreeding dogs and other animals for centuries. Even now you have your "labradoodles" and other designer dogs. Certain breed types were created to suit the needs of the local humans. Cows were once significantly smaller than what they are now. It's possible the same interbreeding was responsible for the growth in the size of the horse.

Do you see the connection between this "breeding" for traits and evolution? In any case it's off topic really. Tyder used a bad example and got called on it. It has no relation to astrology.

 

[tyder001]

Well your first reply was about evolution (at least to me and our conversation) Astrology wasn't acutally what I was talking about and forum threads go all over the place. But, that's ok. Again it's in the comprehension. It was not a bad example buuut. As my wife says just to piss me off. "Whatever!"

 

[The Pair of Cats]

Hmmmm. So, if there is no proof of evolution, please explain the large variety of dog breeds. Please explain how the horse changed from a 3-foot tall animal to the animal we know today. Please explain the various lab experiments it is possible to do with creatures from bacteria to fruit flies which prove evolution.

Obviously it has no relation to astrology, i replied based on your above question. Maybe you should start a whole new thread. One that is relative to evolution

 

[trainedobserver]

Was Ghandi any less of a person because he drank his own urine? Are you asking me to dismiss all of his great works because of that? So are we to declare then that: "Ghandi, the man, who by peaceful protest, bought independance to the great country of India from the British will be stripped of his legendary status because it was found that he had a habit of drinking his own urine!" And people, you should boycott Arthur Conan Doyles books because he once believed that alleged fairy pix were real. Should we also shun anyyone else who uses astrology just becaue some think it's a joke?

You are being disingenuous. Certainly you could not get that from anything that I said.

Let me say this as simply and plainly as possible.

Gandi, Doyle, and other OTHERWISE INTELLIGENT people, can and do believe ridiculous and irrational things from time to time. NO, it does not invalidate EVERYTHING they did. However, their demonstrated intelligence in one matter, human rights for example, does not VALIDATE their irrational beliefs about something else. Because Doyle was able to write and create wonderful works of fiction didn't keep him from being duped by hoaxers.

If you ever can come up with a real example of how astrology works I'd love to see it. Otherwise I have no desire to attempt to have a conversation with someone who misrepresents what's being said.

 

[imjohn]

Again it's in the comprehension. It was not a bad example buuut. As my wife says just to piss me off. "Whatever!"

Indeed. I completely comprehend and comprehended what you were attempting to say. I totally comprehended what you were doing when you posted that I should back off because you are a scientist. I completely comprehend the meaning of this post.

And you call Randi a fraud?

---------- Post added at 05:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:18 PM ----------

Obviously it has no relation to astrology, i replied based on your above question. Maybe you should start a whole new thread. One that is relative to evolution

I am not the person who brought evolution into the discussion.

 

[tyder001]

because you are a scientist. I completely comprehend the meaning of this post.

And you call Randi a fraud?



Again reading and understanding would do wonders for you. Anyway, what makes ya think I'm not a actual sceintist. Just cause a'h have bad spillin don't mean I can't be a rocket man! Anyway, I'm having fun and my work load is light today so I thought I'd look around the ole forum. I somtime 4-get how religious some folks are bout their none religion.

Peace.

 

[imjohn]

Again reading and understanding would do wonders for you.

Again, I comprehended what you have posted here. Your continued insistence that I don't comprehend what you post is arrogant indeed. Yo believe in evolution yet picked it as a strawman in your argument. Got it, OK? If you use a strawman don't be surprised if you get called on it -- especially if you are flat wrong.

Anyway, what makes ya think I'm not a actual sceintist.

I never said that you weren't.

I somtime 4-get how religious some folks are bout their none religion.

Are you referring to my belief that if you are attempting to make a reasoned and logical argument that it should be reasoned and logical? Oh, and, by the way, it should be accurate?

Peace back at'cha.

---------- Post added at 05:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:40 PM ----------

I have a better idea for testing the astrologer with the awesome hit rate. How about we pick 10 people of the same sex and same age group. We do NOT tell the astrologer which sex he is dealing with. After he runs his charts each person in the test picks the chart that best describes them.

Seems a little closer to a double blind test to me. If we hit an 80% success rate at that point the results would be really impressive.

 

[tyder001]

I'll take the peace back at'cha and let it slide.

Sorry if it seems arrogant but I disagree with your "comprehension" of what I tried to convey. If that is arrogant then I guess I am. But, I'm honestly not trying to be. Like I said I would be condesending at this point if I tried to act as if I feel your charge has merit. So, I won't be arrogant and will just agree to disagree this time.

 

[The Pair of Cats]

Gandi, Doyle, and other OTHERWISE INTELLIGENT people, can and do believe ridiculous and irrational things from time to time. NO, it does not invalidate EVERYTHING they did. However, their demonstrated intelligence in one matter, human rights for example, does not VALIDATE their irrational beliefs about something else. Because Doyle was able to write and create wonderful works of fiction didn't keep him from being duped by hoaxers.

How do you know that these people were being irrational and ridiculous when they used astrology? Have you ever studied astrology? If you haven't studied astrology in any way then you are assuming that by using it you are thereby irrational.

If you ever can come up with a real example of how astrology works I'd love to see it. Otherwise I have no desire to attempt to have a conversation with someone who misrepresents what's being said.

Why do you want me to do that? You clearly don't agree that there is any validity in the subject. Let's just cut through the bullshit. You have no desire to learn anything about the subject and no matter what i produce for you , you will find some fact or such to denigrate it.
I have no desire to attempt to prove the validity of astrology to you and anyone else. That would be a colossal waste of my time and a pointless exercise. You could do your own research on the subject if you wanted to but i'm sure you won't and you will have a real good excuse as to why you won't either.

---------- Post added at 04:29 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:21 AM ----------

I have a better idea for testing the astrologer with the awesome hit rate. How about we pick 10 people of the same sex and same age group. We do NOT tell the astrologer which sex he is dealing with. After he runs his charts each person in the test picks the chart that best describes them.

Seems a little closer to a double blind test to me. If we hit an 80% success rate at that point the results would be really impressive.

Go for it, knock yourself out!!! Maybe you could get Shermer to do it. Just make sure you tell him how badly he screwed up his first test and to make doubly sure that he does it your way this time.
Get back to us when you have posted your results.

 

[imjohn]

Go for it, knock yourself out!!! Maybe you could get Shermer to do it. Just make sure you tell him how badly he screwed up his first test and to make doubly sure that he does it your way this time.
Get back to us when you have posted your results.

I'm pretty sure Shermer knows how badly screwed up the first test was. In fact doing a little research shows that the original design of the experiment included a double blind test exactly like the one I posited, but the producers of the show ended the testing because of time constraints. Interesting, isn't it?

 

[The Pair of Cats]

I'm pretty sure Shermer knows how badly screwed up the first test was. In fact doing a little research shows that the original design of the experiment included a double blind test exactly like the one I posited, but the producers of the show ended the testing because of time constraints. Interesting, isn't it?

Sure is. I wonder how Shermer feels about being showed in such a less than stellar way then? It must be a real bitch when TV does that to you.
I got one for you. How about you find out who the best astrologer in your area is, go there and get a fully comprehensive reading from them and see if it makes astrology any more valid to you or not. I mean what harm could it do? If it ends up being shit then you can say to your satisfaction that you tried it and it never worked for you. Whaddya say, willing to give it a go?