Missing People....lots of them

[Grifynne]

I have read the Eastern edition and have to agree with your Dennis Martin assertion. A copy of the actual Park Service report has been available on line for ages. There were a few liberties taken with Paulides narrative vis-à-vis the official report. This includes; another family named Martin occupying the same area as Dennis’ Family. Suspects were named (an annex in the report), Dennis was a special needs child and the Special Forces troops were in another state park across the state line conducting training when called. Paulides made it seem that they were recalled from Alaska by way of a Congressional summons.

I believe some elements of that case came from other sources, including an interview Paulides conducted with Dennis Martin's father. I'm not sure where the other family named Martin came from, but I'm wondering if it could have been mentioned somewhere else (a news article? Mr. Martin?). This might be something worth asking Paulides (which I think I may do).

The odd thing about the Special Forces involvement, aside from them showing up, was that they apparently did not communicate with other SAR groups in the area. They seemed to refuse to and maintained radio silence. My understanding is that they were approached but chose not to interact for some reason which really seems counter productive if you want to help SAR find a person.

There are quite a few reviews of his books on the interweb. A few are negative and one or two cite extensively how he misrepresented the cases he reports. I can’t say one way or the other, but I do take issue with his repeated assertion regarding the park service not keeping records. They keep records and fairly detailed ones at that.

I haven't checked the reviews in a while, but I know he had some rabid detractors that seemed to have a vendetta rather than a desire to reveal the truth. Not saying that's what you were reading, but it is something to keep in mind. The bigfoot community, which Paulides' is associated with, seems very dramatic (as in they cause drama among themselves) so some of that could be stemming from someone with a different opinion or agenda. I'll have to take a look when I get a moment and see what's been added recently.

Michael Ghiglieri and Charles Farabee proved records exist when they coauthored “Off the Wall: Death in Yosemite”. This book encompasses disappearances, deaths and general misfortune and adventure of park visitors dating back to the year 1851 in Yosemite National Park.


Michael and Charles’ well researched, documented, footnoted, and sourced book began as data, with the aid of Paul Gallez, a park service computer specialist. Farabee was a former Yosemite Ranger and Deputy Coroner who compiling a list and a program was designed to capture and analyze this data. Learning of the pre-1950s deaths not to mention pinpointing the incidents far more remote and obscure provided highly challenging despite improved access due to the Freedom of information act.


"To identify those who died within Yosemite's boundaries, data housed in Yosemite's Law Enforcement Office are complete coroner files from 1970 onward. For earlier incidents an excellent resource used was the Superintendent`s Monthly Report. From 1926-1963, each park area was required to submit a monthly report to agency superiors."


This book lists well over 1000 reports. How is it that they were able to access this information and records and Paulides was not?

Paulides addresses this in multiple interviews. Apparently he submitted FOIA requests but was denied, even to the point of speaking to the NPS special agent (er, whatever their title is, I'm going from memory here ) and receiving a rather curt and rude response. This occurred in at least one case (Stacy Aras I believe - and I suspect I'm spelling her name incorrectly). He also got in touch with Farabee who said he couldn't understand why the files weren't given to Paulides because he had seen them long ago when he wrote Off the Wall. The attitude Paulides received apparently referenced who he was, I assume meaning his association with the bigfoot community but I don't think he explicitly stated that.

George Knapp also discussed submitting a FOIA request during one of his C2C interviews with Paulides to see if he would receive the same response. Knapp, who I also believe is a genuine guy with no reason to lie, claims that he did. I don't doubt that there are people who will fabricate conspiracy to further a cause or obtain some kind of gain, but I also think it is folly to assume that official documentation and government organizations won't go to great lengths to conceal things that they don't want the public to know about. It's been done before so if something is going on, I'm certain they would do it again.

I am still of the opinion that Paulides sounds genuine. Could he be twisting the facts? Maybe. But I also suspect there may be information that's omitted from publicly available official documents that is found through interviews, original news articles, etc. In fact Paulides stated that he obtained a lot of information from news archives from the time because of trouble obtaining the files (or in some cases, where large quantities of files had been missing or destroyed). He could be a total fraud I suppose, but I'm not seeing that yet. But I'm always curious because these cases intrigue me.

And as as side note, I'm currently working through Off the Wall and it is a really good book. Highly recommend it to anyone who doesn't mind morbid subject matter.

 

[William Debold]

Another good read if you will is a companion book to OFF THE WALL, and that is OVER THE EDGE death in Grand Canyon.

but I also think it is folly to assume that official documentation and government organizations won't go to great lengths to conceal things that they don't want the public to know about.
That's where I have the issue. If other researches can get the information, then why can't he? I don't buy his (Paulides) conspiracy about a government cover up. The information is there so why can’t HE get it? And why accuse the Park Service of a conspiracy when there is none, vis-a-via other books on the subject?

It's been done before so if something is going on, I'm certain they would do it again.
I agree. So what is the underlining theme? Is it because he's a Bigfoot researcher? The Park System isn't perfect but they keep records on everything, or I should say records are maintained that are not flattering to what goes on in them. For example, there are records available for the 194 suicides that occur in the Federal Park System from 2003-2009. Here is a link.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5947a2.htm

I am also calling into question his assumptions and outright disregard for hypothermia and the associated bizarre side effects such as paradoxical undressing and terminal burrowing. Look at all the bodies on Mt. Everest that have died (still there) and see the lack of clothes on some of the corpses.

 

[manxman]

terminal burrowing

not heard of that before william, you mean they will go to ground like a rabbit, in their delerium.

 

[Grifynne]

I will have to add that to my book list. Thanks for the suggestion!

That's where I have the issue. If other researches can get the information, then why can't he? I don't buy his (Paulides) conspiracy about a government cover up. The information is there so why can’t HE get it? And why accuse the Park Service of a conspiracy when there is none, vis-a-via other books on the subject?

Just some food for thought, but it could have something to do with his background. I would be curious to know if there is another author who got the information with a similar background. If they are afraid he will paint a certain picture, they might be more inclined to say no.

If you read Farabee's book, his approach was very much focused on mishap, human error, bad judgement etc. Yes, that's not a pleasant thing to think of but I think most people realize that this stuff happens in wilderness areas. Paulides' is coming from a very different direction and background. Not saying he is correct, but it's just something to consider. I just don't get the impression that he's lying about being denied. And if he's not lying, then why is it happening? Pure bad luck?

I agree. So what is the underlining theme? Is it because he's a Bigfoot researcher? The Park System isn't perfect but they keep records on everything, or I should say records are maintained that are not flattering to what goes on in them. For example, there are records available for the 194 suicides that occur in the Federal Park System from 2003-2009. Here is a link.

Suicides in National Parks --- United States, 2003--2009

Suicide stats are definitely not an appealing aspect of a national park but I think it's not the same as what Paulide's has put together. It's not pretty but it's controllable and limited from the broader human perspective. We know what suicide is. It's a terrible thing, but there are no unknowns outside of the individual's inner thought processes. Those kinds of things won't physically hurt others, so in a way it is much easier to deal with. Authorities can create a report and essentially "close" the case and all will be well again for the general public.

Even something like a serial killer is still human. And once caught, the crime stops, and we all go about our lives. But what if there's something outside of our general control out there? Something we can't stop by apprehending a criminal? Or something that law enforcement and the government haven't figured out yet despite their best efforts? That would be a bit harder for the general public to swallow so I could sort of see why someone might be inclined to hide the facts about something like that but not hide the suicide stats.

News reporter George Knapp also stated on air that he tried to FOIA missing persons cases to see what would happen and was denied. So in that case, why was he also denied? Is it more bad luck or is there a trend?

For now, my mind keeps coming back to the underlying issue of control. I think the park authorities and government agencies can't control whatever is going on. It's beyond their reach and possibly their understanding. To tell the general public that people are being taken and/or killed and they can't do anything about it would really rock the power structure (and cause severe issues in terms of visitors to parks). It could also incite a negative response from the public, depending on what's involved.

I don't know much about hypothermia so I can't really speak to that end. Paulides may be off base with that argument, but even if you eliminate that one there is too much here to ignore. What about cases where people were undressing yards from where they went missing, long before hypothermia would have even had a chance to set in? What about children who were found in swamp areas on an island surrounded by water logged landscape and their clothing was clean and dry? There are many nuances here so I think it's important to look at everything because even if you take out one or two elements and whether you agree or disagree with Paulides, there's still something very unusual about many of these cases.

 

[William Debold]

terminal burrowing

not heard of that before william, you mean they will go to ground like a rabbit, in their delerium.

Sort of. Its described as a phenomenon of lethal hypothermia, a self-protective behaviour known as terminal burrowing, or hide-and-die syndrome, occurs in the final stages of hypothermia. The afflicted will enter small, enclosed spaces, such as underneath beds or behind wardrobes. It is often associated with paradoxical undressing. Researchers in Germany claim this is "obviously an autonomous process of the brain stem, which is triggered in the final state of hypothermia and produces a primitive and burrowing-like behavior of protection, as seen in hibernating animals." This happens mostly in cases where temperature drops slowly. Most SAR teams are familiar with this phenomenon.



The Bizarre Effects of Hypothermia | Terminal Burrowing Paradoxical Undressing | LiveScience

"Terminal burrowing behaviour"--a phenomenon... [Int J Legal Med. 1995] - PubMed - NCBI

 

[William Debold]

Just some food for thought, but it could have something to do with his background. I would be curious to know if there is another author who got the information with a similar background. If they are afraid he will paint a certain picture, they might be more inclined to say no.

I agree and that's what might be going on. I can understand that. NOT releasing information is not the same as covering up data that the park service has and maintains.

If you read Farabee's book, his approach was very much focused on mishap, human error, bad judgment etc. Yes, that's not a pleasant thing to think of but I think most people realize that this stuff happens in wilderness areas. Paulides' is coming from a very different direction and background. Not saying he is correct, but it's just something to consider. I just don't get the impression that he's lying about being denied. And if he's not lying, then why is it happening? Pure bad luck?.

He seems to keep reiterating that the Park service is covering up for not releasing the information as if they don't have it.

Suicide stats are definitely not an appealing aspect of a national park but I think it's not the same as what Paulide's has put together. It's not pretty but it's controllable and limited from the broader human perspective. We know what suicide is. It's a terrible thing, but there are no unknowns outside of the individual's inner thought processes. Those kinds of things won't physically hurt others, so in a way it is much easier to deal with. Authorities can create a report and essentially "close" the case and all will be well again for the general public.

I agree but it goes to the almost anal retentive nature that the government has towards records, numbers and data.

For now, my mind keeps coming back to the underlying issue of control. I think the park authorities and government agencies can't control whatever is going on. It's beyond their reach and possibly their understanding. To tell the general public that people are being taken and/or killed and they can't do anything about it would really rock the power structure (and cause severe issues in terms of visitors to parks). It could also incite a negative response from the public, depending on what's involved.

That's the problem. Mr. Paulides doesn't come out and say what it is. He vaguely speculates and makes the claim that the governments is covering up disappearances, but won't say what or who is doing it. It is hard to believe that the research done on OFF THE WALL and OVER THE EDGE, and not one single mention or hint of something sinister going on in the parks.

What about cases where people were undressing yards from where they went missing, long before hypothermia would have even had a chance to set in? What about children who were found in swamp areas on an island surrounded by water logged landscape and their clothing was clean and dry?

Like in the Geoffrey Hague case. He describes Geoffrey's clothes being found on a rock in the middle of a river. According to the newspaper accounts it was in the middle of a stream. Due to the sub-freezing weather conditions, the snow and the time of year I would think that a stream would be frozen over and undiscernible form the ground. He unpacked a few things, was confused and scared and in a panic left thinking that following the stream would get him back to the main road. As far as clothing being wet, it all depends on what he defines as wet and pertinent to the story.

There are many nuances here so I think it's important to look at everything because even if you take out one or two elements and whether you agree or disagree with Paulides, there's still something very unusual about many of these cases.

I agree there may be a few stories after you exclude:
The people in his stories that were found alive
People that went out unprepared
People that were underprepared
People in ill health
Climbing accidents
Hiking accidents (rock slides etc.)
Suicides
Homicides
Stumbling on Illegal grow operations
Other accidents
Animal attacks
Weather related incidents
Freak others

 

[nameless]

if you cross reference the cases with google earth claims of being in desolate or remote areas got out the window when they are near highways; abductions then cannot be ruled out.

 

[LeBombette]

I have to admit I'm very skeptical about the Missing books and I think Paulides "reaches" a lot and is also somewhat misinformed. I don't think he's being dishonest or faking anything, but I do think he might be selectively ignoring things to make cases sound more high strange. There are many cases that he includes that seem to have fairly mundane explanations (if you can consider kidnapping and murder mundane), but there are others that are total head scratchers if Paulides is giving us all the details. I would like to see Paulides take some of the most bizarre cases and focus on them...do really detailed research...or better yet, someone other than Paulides examine them. He doesn't seem to be the best researcher as far as archival research so I'm sure there's a lot he missed. If you do a Google search of Dennis Martin you can find a document from the Coast Guard that utilizes his case in search and rescue training for how NOT to conduct a search. I think the Dennis Martin case is fairly explainable in terms of not recovering a body what I do think is really weird is how some of these folks, especially kids go missing. Often they are unsupervised for just moments. When I read the Western edition of Missing 411 I was struck by the feeling of something almost "beckoning" kids away. I don't know how to really explain it...but, just a feeling you get in many of the cases, but of course "a feeling" is not evidence. When I was a child I lived in a very isolated, rural area surrounded by woods. I would have these dreams about a witch (not a scary witch, but a nice one) that lived in a cabin in the woods. I was convinced she was really there and on a few occasions when I looked out to the edge of the woods I could see her standing there. I often went back in the woods alone (sneaking out when my Mom was in the shower) looking for her cabin. I desperately wanted to find her...she seemed so nice and I was sad she was all alone, so I wanted to visit. I have to say reading some of the kids cases in the book gave me the chills thinking about my own experiences. I'm quite sure that my experience was due to a big imagination, emotional trauma of my parent's divorce and a tendency to night terrors, but I do think kids are more able to get in touch with the weird and unexplainable bits of our existence. For them perhaps, the veil is thinner. I think about 60 to 70% of the cases in his books are explainable, but I'd say the rest warrant more thorough research.

 

[Wade]

This is a still developing story and hopefully all turns out well but I find it intriguing because the guy was barefoot when he went nissing while looking for his lost dog and it brings into question how can a barefoot person go missing in a wilderness setting.? He couldn't have gotten too far and even if he fell to his death it doesn't seem like it would be too far from where he was last seen. I'd be concerned about foul play by now.

Missing Arcadia firefighter's dog found at trailhead where trip began - Los Angeles Times

 

[Wade]

Firefighter's Body Found in California Wilderness - ABC News

Fire fighter's body found in a place 1,200 feet higher than where he was last seen (which he managed to climb in bare feet.)