Missing People....lots of them

[ALPHA ROMEO UNIFORM]

Always think of predator and if there is a possibility of some cloaking technology used by some weird folks or off world intelligence who's cultural education is different to ours not too far fetch they could find us a taste choice?

 

[Randall]

What gets me is that over 2000 people a year in the USA simply go missing and don't turn up again fairly soon ( if ever ), and that there are some 40,000 unidentified remains: http://www.npr.org/2013/05/07/182000622/majority-of-missing-persons-cases-are-resolved

It would help to have some statistics on these numbers. How many of the unidentified remains have been determined to have died under suspicious circumstances, accident, or whatever, and what are the connections between the missing people and their association with things like gangs and criminal activity. In other words, in the end, how many of these missing people are just regular folks who have vanished under mysterious circumstances never to be seen again?

 

[LeBombette]

I'm glad to hear that you both (Starise & Gryfynne) felt the research was solid, hearing that makes me think I should at least give the books a try. I would have to find the interview and re-listen to figure out the specific cases. One was concerning a family I believe and it actually shows up on a lot of "top ten mysterious disappearance" lists on the internet, but with just a tiny bit of digging its easy to find that the case was solved long before it began to pop up as a "disappearance". Now, I will say that I was listening to a lot of interviews given by Paulides at the time and I might have mixed up a case the host brought up with something that was actually in his book. I do remember one story I had problems with was the one you mentioned, Dennis Martin. I did a bit of searching on that one and felt that Paulides was over-dramatizing the story (at least in interviews). Not to detract from the real drama of the Dennis Martin case at all - even without embellishment it is a truly weird story. However, I felt that Paulides misrepresented some elements of the case and maybe put too much emphasis on others. For example, the so-called "wild man" he sort of cryptically referred to when the witnesses seemed to be referring to what locals would think of as "mountain folk". Most locals knew that there were "mountain folk" that lived illegally within the borders of the park. It's a big leap from a "unkempt man" to a "wild man". It just seemed a bit like showmanship and maybe he was just playing it up for the interview to sell some books. The Dennis Martin cases is sad and strange, but I think can very easily be explained that it was a comedy of errors, mostly due to the FBI involvement. It has been such an example of what not to do in search and rescue that even the Coast Guard uses the case as a search and rescue training scenario because of all the problems that affected the operations. Of course, like I said I haven't read the book so his account there could be much more accurate than the one he has told in interviews. Does he cite his sources? I'm a historian by trade and suspicious by nature so I rarely believe anything I'm told...especially if there's not a reference citation. All that to say that I think I will go ahead and purchase at least one in the series...if nothing else but for curiosity's sake!

 

[Grifynne]

What gets me is that over 2000 people a year in the USA simply go missing and don't turn up again fairly soon ( if ever ), and that there are some 40,000 unidentified remains: http://www.npr.org/2013/05/07/182000622/majority-of-missing-persons-cases-are-resolved

It would help to have some statistics on these numbers. How many of the unidentified remains have been determined to have died under suspicious circumstances, accident, or whatever, and what are the connections between the missing people and their association with things like gangs and criminal activity. In other words, in the end, how many of these missing people are just regular folks who have vanished under mysterious circumstances never to be seen again?

You bring up an excellent point, Ufology. I had no idea the numbers were so different. And I'm sure there could be more remains out there that haven't been discovered. I would also like to see some of the stats you mentioned. It's hard to fathom that so many people could die and no one would miss them enough to report it. I suppose there are always circumstances that might lead someone away from home without alarming those that know them as well as situations where they are reported but their body is just never associated with the report because it wasn't in the area. Still, so many unknowns kind of makes you pause. In this day and age where privacy is constantly under assault and we can do things with DNA and other technologies, you would think they could figure out the identities most unidentified remains - at least more recent discoveries.

LeBombette - I highly recommend checking out the books. I don't think he has official citations listed but I think he does mention publications and article dates, etc. in some (or FOIA requests). I suppose if someone was curious they could try FOIAing or do a newspaper archive search on their own to compare notes. There are some cases that I think "well, that could be something explainable" but there are quite a few that are very curious and others that are really unsettling. More than I thought there would be. There were also odd interactions with people within the NPS and some cases he was never allowed to have the files on (and was given what sounded like BS reasons why or a high financial cost that they likely knew he couldn't pay).

I should also mention that Paulides doesn't point to one or two explanations. He just presents the information and lets the reader come to their own conclusion. That being said, I get the feeling he thinks it could be multiple things at work. So in some cases, he very well might think it's a wild man as you described (human being living off the grid, just crazy in the woods or whatever). The main thing is that people are going missing under weird circumstances and there are common threads that appear across these cases that make it seem like it is something more than random chance. At the very least if there is some way to identify when/where it's likely to happen the public should be warned for their own protection.

I believe I posted an image of a case from one of the books a few posts back. That might help you get a feel for what to expect when reading them.

 

[starise]

I think that maybe a factor in the apparent lack of public interest has something to do with how humans deal with death in general and especially the death of close family.

We all die and we will all, at one time or another, need to mentally and emotionally cope with a death and maybe even deal with our own before it happens. There seems to be a protective process in place to help us move on after a death. Not that exhaustive efforts haven't been made to bring a resolution to these cases, especially by the families affected, but one can only look and not find for so long before they need some kind of a closure in order to remain mentally healthy. In cases where the family of a victim continues to search and hope they are drained from it. Sometimes their searches yield something good but more often the whole process can consume them emotionally after years of looking. In order to be healthy they need to move the event into a safe place to deal with, maybe still deal with it but not to the point of exhaustion or where it becomes their only preoccupation.

Things similar to this that I can think of are soldiers who were never found and never returned, but in that case there is usually a pretty solid conclusion as to what happened and closure is much easier. In the same way, if your husband went into the woods with a rifle and never came out...well...no matter what else occurred there is a strong enough assumption there to make some kind of closure and the chances of him appearing a few months later are not likely.

In many of the cases in Paulides books there were bodies recovered but sometimes months later. In many others the victims were found. I call them victims only because they wouldn't have done this to themselves or couldn't have. Many of them small children.

After a long exhaustive search yields a body the family has their answer. If nothing is found the general public tends to make an assumption that might not be correct.They simply died in the woods. What else can you do? I think it is sad that we move on as quickly as we do if it isn't a close family member. If nothing else the books are a recollection of these events and a time to remember these people. More than that, they serve to remind us that these things are happening, over riding the human tendency to move on and maybe it will move someone with unique insights to continue investigating who might eventually uncover some answers.

 

[Wade]

Mr. Paulides was on C2C last night (09/29) and added a new twist I don't think was mentioned before...unless it was mentioned in his newest book...that there was two cases of missing children and dogs that occurred near each other that involved developmentally disabled children under the care of their aunts. Maybe a coincidence , but it's these seemingly tenuous connections on missing people that I find fascinating, maybe more so than any possible bigfoot connection. I think both keel and jim brandon were both intrigued by these commonalities, although they focused on similarities in names be it the locations or victims or both intertwined

 

[Bob Watson]

this time UFO abduction was played up

 

[Grifynne]

Mr. Paulides was on C2C last night (09/29) and added a new twist I don't think was mentioned before...unless it was mentioned in his newest book...that there was two cases of missing children and dogs that occurred near each other that involved developmentally disabled children under the care of their aunts. Maybe a coincidence , but it's these seemingly tenuous connections on missing people that I find fascinating, maybe more so than any possible bigfoot connection. I think both keel and jim brandon were both intrigued by these commonalities, although they focused on similarities in names be it the locations or victims or both intertwined

The missing children/dogs/staying with other relatives factors have been mentioned before so that's not really a new twist. I think some of the cases Paulides highlighted in past radio appearances were children staying with grandparents in rural areas. And there are a number of them in the books. The bigfoot connection is really only one possible explanation (and even that seems to have weird nuances to it that go deeper than "big hairy undiscovered ape takes people"). I think if it was that simple we would have figured things out by now.

I see they are leaning more toward the UFO angle on this one. Seeing as we don't even grasp that yet, I just don't think that's going to be the catch-all answer. I wonder if that angle was played more heavily because of MUFON's recent interest? I understand wanting to get the word out and get more intelligent eyes and minds on this, but I'm not sold on this theory yet. At least not in the more nuts and bolts sense.

Either way, I like hearing the occasional update even if it's mostly a rehash. I have been trying to wrap my mind around this for a while but it's a slippery SOB. I suspect it's possible some of the cases could have other causes, including some that are conventional. As far as the unexplained aspect, I don't think we will be able to unravel it until we start to decipher the cause behind UFO and bigfoot sightings and other paranormal activity.

I think there are common threads which could influence the commonalities found across many of these cases. It's fascinating to me that there are many minor similarities. Like Dennis Martin who went missing while playing in a field under the watchful eye of his father, and they just happened to encounter another family immediately before his disappearance with the same last name. Yes, that's a common last name, but what are the chances of meeting someone you don't know with the same last name in the forest minutes before your child goes missing as you watch him play hide and seek? It could be nothing, but I just found it odd. And no, I'm not saying I think the other Martin family had anything to do with it. But I think something could be influencing conditions and situations in some or many of these cases.

I also see he discussed the case of Mary Jane Barker which was really unsettling. I don't believe that that little girl and her dog stayed in that closet for 6 days (or however long it was). I have dogs, and I know that there would be all kinds of signs of the dog relieving itself and possibly scratch marks on the doors and walls - especially if it was a puppy that was not housebroken. The dog would have been whining when it heard workers enter the home. It probably would have made noticeable thumping as it jumped around trying to escape.

In case anyone was curious who hasn't been through this entire thread, I posted the actual pages to that specific case a while back. You can read them here (sorry about the poor image quality):

Missing People....lots of them | Page 4 | The Paracast Community Forums

I wonder if a book will be done about the two states they haven't covered (uh, Texas and Florida I think). I would love to see a collection of cases from those areas as well as learn more about other locations in other countries. And I guess we'll see where MUFON takes this as well. I was surprised that they were interested since this has some non-UFO elements to it.

 

[Randall]

So if 2000 people a year go missing and aren't found again, and there are 40,000 unidentified remains, the math suggests that the missing have been stacking up in the unidentified remains pile, and that would fill the missing person's gap every year for the last 20 years. One might be tempted to assume that 2000 who go missing don't end up in the unidentified remains pile, but if the remains are unidentified, then how do we know? Someone could go missing and turn up 5 or ten years later and end up in the unidentified remains pile and anyone who had previously wondered where they had gone may not know, or for that matter even be around themselves to check. So these numbers suggest that the real number of truly odd cases are very few.

 

[Wade]

I must have blinked out for a few minutes during this broadcast...not an uncommon event for me...as I missed the deviation into ufo territory. I did hear mr. paulides try to avoid going into the us gov underground base scenario, did the ufo aspect come up around this time ?

 

[Wade]

I also got the chills listening to that one caller from Belair MD. recall her experience. If it was fabricated she sure sold me if only because it was there was no histrionics added to her storyline

 

[Randall]

I also got the chills listening to that one caller from Belair MD. recall her experience. If it was fabricated she sure sold me if only because it was there was no histrionics added to her storyline

I caught that too and it reminded me of a similar experience I had out in BC, and of one my older brother and his wife had, and one a couple of my teen age buddies had ( also out in BC ). The thing I thought was interesting about the CTC caller's experience is that she said that it happened almost in town. I wonder if they ( whatever these things are ) have ever wandered into a town ( like a stray animal ) in the past. I've never heard of any such stories, though the thing my brother & his wife saw was within Calgary city limits at the time, in a natural area bordering the northwest quadrant.

 

[Grifynne]

So if 2000 people a year go missing and aren't found again, and there are 40,000 unidentified remains, the math suggests that the missing have been stacking up in the unidentified remains pile, and that would fill the missing person's gap every year for the last 20 years. One might be tempted to assume that 2000 who go missing don't end up in the unidentified remains pile, but if the remains are unidentified, then how do we know? Someone could go missing and turn up 5 or ten years later and end up in the unidentified remains pile and anyone who had previously wondered where they had gone may not know, or for that matter even be around themselves to check. So these numbers suggest that the real number of truly odd cases are very few.

I don't think the numbers are enormous, but I think they are significant enough to warrant attention. Even one case with unexplained elements should be investigated. After all, if you have 1,000 faked photos of a UFO but 1 real one, that doesn't mean the real one is invalidated. And to family members of the missing, I don't think the stats nullify their pain or desire to know where their loved one went.

Also, just because someone ended up in a John or Jane Doe file doesn't mean their case can't be truly odd. In some of these cases, there are no signs of trauma or obvious foul play and if enough time passes then the remains may be scattered and the "crime scene" contaminated. So someone may see a dead person who appears to have died of exposure in the woods and chalk it up to a homeless vagrant or misadventure and throw them on the unidentified list.

I'm also sure there are unreported missing people who could became unidentified remains with no missing persons case to attach to them. A recent case includes Erica Parsons who was reported missing 2 years after she actually disappeared (and only because her brother was angry about being kicked out of the house - as far as I know she has not yet been found):

Erica Parsons, 15, Reported Missing Two Years After She Was Last Seen - The Dreamin Demon

Or the situation with adopted children being given away. While this wasn't an unreported missing persons case, it could certainly have become one if she was killed by her tormentors since chances are no one else would have bothered to check up on her:

Adopted girl says mother forced her to dig her own grave - Investigations

Considering that there are apparently places online people can go to give away adopted children with no official report/mediation, who is to say that some of these kids don't eventually become unidentified remains that are never reported as a missing person? Again these specific cases aren't paranormal or odd, but they illustrate how there are many finer details that must be considered when looking at a broad statistic.

This is pure speculation on my part, but I could also see the way law enforcement handles the discovery overlooking the elements found in the Missing 411 cases, especially in decades-old cases when the handling of crime wasn't as refined as it is now (and when these elements were not known). I have heard many situations where law enforcement downplays the concerns of family members when someone goes missing. They say someone was a runaway or will turn up then we find out the person was murdered. Or they get stuck on a specific theory and work to prove that rather than find out what really happened (I have heard this happen when a spouse/child is killed or missing and they focus on the surviving parent/spouse while precious time passes - in fact I recall at least 1 case in the Missing 411 books where this exact situation happened).

I'm not saying this happens all the time and that every missing person case is somehow paranormal, but this is an example of how the interpretation of law enforcement can govern the direction of the investigation and the conclusion it comes to. This has happened in conventional cases in the past so who's to say it doesn't also happen with unconventional cases?

I could see something like this influencing how an unidentified persons case is handled. They may unintentionally overlook the elements that indicate strangeness because they assume it's just a vagrant or unfortunate hiker and look no further into it once the body is brought in and added to the unidentified remains list. And so family never knows they are there and we never have a chance to compare notes to discover how many really fit into this strange template. And sometimes the data entered into missing persons databases isn't 100% accurate, which could prolong the discovery process or even prevent it. It's just something to consider.

You make a point, but I think general statistics doesn't provide a solution here. And I suspect there are probably more cases than we are aware of because of how they were handled and/or the inability or refusal of people to recognize elements that they have a hard time accepting could be involved. Plus we also have to consider that a general stat is going to cover higher population areas that are more likely to have a greater number of missing persons/remains which could skew the numbers. It would be nice to get those same stats for individual national parks where these disappearances take place, but that information is being curiously withheld - another factor that should raise a few eyebrows.

I should also add that I think in most cases law enforcement does a great job and they have managed to solve some difficult puzzles. There are many skilled, hardworking people who do a job that many wouldn't touch, and they deserve to be commended for that. My comments about L.E.'s handling of remains/missing persons were mostly reflecting on older cases when we weren't as quick to respond to things like missing children (or when such resources weren't readily available in some regions).

Now that we have better technology and quicker response times, it will be interesting (tragically so, though), to see if this helps us get a better perspective on the actual volume of strange disappearances/deaths. That is, of course, if there isn't a cover up effort underway as we have seen hinted at in a few of these cases. Hopefully awareness will lead to more people questioning and paying attention.

 

[Grifynne]

I must have blinked out for a few minutes during this broadcast...not an uncommon event for me...as I missed the deviation into ufo territory. I did hear mr. paulides try to avoid going into the us gov underground base scenario, did the ufo aspect come up around this time ?

It seemed to, at least earlier in the discussion. More so than it has in other interviews (at least the ones I have heard, I'm sure I missed a few on other shows). Ya, he didn't seem too into the underground base theory. I don't know a lot about that but I got the impression that the timeline/factors related to underground bases didn't line up with the cases enough to be relevant. Or at least nothing built by the U.S. government (based on what Paulides said).

 

[Randall]

I don't think the numbers are enormous, but I think they are significant enough to warrant attention. Even one case with unexplained elements should be investigated. After all, if you have 1,000 faked photos of a UFO but 1 real one, that doesn't mean the real one is invalidated. And to family members of the missing, I don't think the stats nullify their pain or desire to know where their loved one went ...

All true and well thought out. Of course then, that begs the question, what kind of missing persons case equates to the case of a genuine UFO ( alien craft )? It seems to me that the heart of the matter revolves around the very few who seem to just vanish under circumstances connected with the paranormal or extraordinary, like urban legends of being taken by aliens, or spontaneous human combustion. But how many of those are there really? A few dozen questionable cases? And out of those, how many are 100% the real deal? When I first heard about all these missing people I took interest because of the numbers, but as it became clearer and clearer that those numbers seemed to be inflated or spun in a sensationalist manner, I've started to question the whole phenomenon.

 

[Grifynne]

All true and well thought out. Of course then, that begs the question, what kind of missing persons case equates to the case of a genuine UFO ( alien craft )? It seems to me that the heart of the matter revolves around the very few who seem to just vanish under circumstances connected with the paranormal or extraordinary, like urban legends of being taken by aliens, or spontaneous human combustion. But how many of those are there really? A few dozen questionable cases? And out of those, how many are 100% the real deal? When I first heard about all these missing people I took interest because of the numbers, but as it became clearer and clearer that those numbers seemed to be inflated or spun in a sensationalist manner, I've started to question the whole phenomenon.

Ya, that's the part I'm not entirely understanding as of yet. To be fair, I didn't hear Paulides specifically state that UFOs are the answer, but obviously they are hinting in that direction with last nights discussion and the involvement of MUFON. I wouldn't know how to even begin classifying some as UFO related disappearance specifically and others as not. Maybe they are considering the idea that all this strange activity (UFOs, bigfoot, etc.) are tied together so they are lumping it under the UFO heading - which is a possibility that I think could be plausible but I just have a hard time swallowing it in the traditional nuts and bolts fashion.

And as far as urban legends, those are usually a lot of rumor with little to no substantiating evidence. Just someone's brother's friend's cousin's girlfriend's uncle saw this or that. But in this situation, we have actual real missing persons cases with elements that were printed in respectable publications and police reports. Paulides has even interviews immediate family members and members of law enforcement who were there and saw the scene unfold - and some of them even suspected something strange was going on at the time. So the data and corroborating evidence is there, which I think would at the very least elevate this above urban legend status.

I guess we are a little different in the direction we come from with this phenomena because the pure strangeness is what really captivated me at first. I was actually surprised by the number of cases that match the criteria after reading all 3 books. And in saying that, the number was greater than I thought even when taking into consideration some cases that were featured in the Missing 411 series that I felt could have conventional explanations. I think I'm at the point where I believe something is definitely going on (or maybe "somethings") I'm just not convinced exactly what or where the root cause lies. From what I have learned, I don't think it's a matter of dozens but hundreds at least. But even if it was a handful of cases, I would still be curious.

And unfortunately I think you get that sensationalism a lot when dealing with these fringe areas, and it really turns some people off when they see it for what it is. There are a few people I have been listening to/reading about that I feel are trustworthy and have given me no reason to suspect their motives, Paulides being one of those people. So I tend to be more inclined to pay attention to what he's saying and I never got the impression he was trying to sensationalize it. He sounded concerned and deeply involved, but not trying to build himself up as a personality or push the issue beyond what it really is. Maybe things will come out to change my opinion, but that's where it stands now.

Even if the phenomena was to stop today and never happen again, I would still be very interested in learning what's been happening over the past years. Perhaps it's one of the keys to deciphering aspects of the unexplained that we have been struggling with for decades.

 

[ALPHA ROMEO UNIFORM]

Late professor Ivan T Sanderson touch on this subject Don or Gene do have any old taped which have not been aired or UFO Magazine articles ?? /interviews with this excellent researcher?..

 

[Gene Steinberg]

Possibly. I'll check with a source.

 

[Grifynne]

Late professor Ivan T Sanderson touch on this subject Don or Gene do have any old taped which have not been aired or UFO Magazine articles ?? /interviews with this excellent researcher?..

I would love to check this out if it could be made available online somewhere? Thanks for the suggestion, Blowfish (and thanks to Gene for looking!)

 

[William Debold]

I'm glad to hear that you both (Starise & Gryfynne) felt the research was solid, hearing that makes me think I should at least give the books a try. I would have to find the interview and re-listen to figure out the specific cases. One was concerning a family I believe and it actually shows up on a lot of "top ten mysterious disappearance" lists on the internet, but with just a tiny bit of digging its easy to find that the case was solved long before it began to pop up as a "disappearance". Now, I will say that I was listening to a lot of interviews given by Paulides at the time and I might have mixed up a case the host brought up with something that was actually in his book. I do remember one story I had problems with was the one you mentioned, Dennis Martin. I did a bit of searching on that one and felt that Paulides was over-dramatizing the story (at least in interviews). Not to detract from the real drama of the Dennis Martin case at all - even without embellishment it is a truly weird story. However, I felt that Paulides misrepresented some elements of the case and maybe put too much emphasis on others. For example, the so-called "wild man" he sort of cryptically referred to when the witnesses seemed to be referring to what locals would think of as "mountain folk". Most locals knew that there were "mountain folk" that lived illegally within the borders of the park. It's a big leap from a "unkempt man" to a "wild man". It just seemed a bit like showmanship and maybe he was just playing it up for the interview to sell some books. The Dennis Martin cases is sad and strange, but I think can very easily be explained that it was a comedy of errors, mostly due to the FBI involvement. It has been such an example of what not to do in search and rescue that even the Coast Guard uses the case as a search and rescue training scenario because of all the problems that affected the operations. Of course, like I said I haven't read the book so his account there could be much more accurate than the one he has told in interviews. Does he cite his sources? I'm a historian by trade and suspicious by nature so I rarely believe anything I'm told...especially if there's not a reference citation. All that to say that I think I will go ahead and purchase at least one in the series...if nothing else but for curiosity's sake!

I have read the Eastern edition and have to agree with your Dennis Martin assertion. A copy of the actual Park Service report has been available on line for ages. There were a few liberties taken with Paulides narrative vis-à-vis the official report. This includes; another family named Martin occupying the same area as Dennis’ Family. Suspects were named (an annex in the report), Dennis was a special needs child and the Special Forces troops were in another state park across the state line conducting training when called. Paulides made it seem that they were recalled from Alaska by way of a Congressional summons.


There are quite a few reviews of his books on the interweb. A few are negative and one or two cite extensively how he misrepresented the cases he reports. I can’t say one way or the other, but I do take issue with his repeated assertion regarding the park service not keeping records. They keep records and fairly detailed ones at that.


Michael Ghiglieri and Charles Farabee proved records exist when they coauthored “Off the Wall: Death in Yosemite”. This book encompasses disappearances, deaths and general misfortune and adventure of park visitors dating back to the year 1851 in Yosemite National Park.


Michael and Charles’ well researched, documented, footnoted, and sourced book began as data, with the aid of Paul Gallez, a park service computer specialist. Farabee was a former Yosemite Ranger and Deputy Coroner who compiling a list and a program was designed to capture and analyze this data. Learning of the pre-1950s deaths not to mention pinpointing the incidents far more remote and obscure provided highly challenging despite improved access due to the Freedom of information act.


"To identify those who died within Yosemite's boundaries, data housed in Yosemite's Law Enforcement Office are complete coroner files from 1970 onward. For earlier incidents an excellent resource used was the Superintendent`s Monthly Report. From 1926-1963, each park area was required to submit a monthly report to agency superiors."


This book lists well over 1000 reports. How is it that they were able to access this information and records and Paulides was not?