New Jacques Vallee Interview:

[Randall]

This is not a fair comparison by any means.

Sure it's a fair comparison. It deals specifically with nuclear missile silos and includes a section on readiness testing, plus it was a classified document. All issues that are relevant to this discussion.

Your example is considered a Historical document, but the program I mentioned continued on into the 90's -at least. So, it is unreasonable to compare your 1965 Historical declassified document to a highly classified program that probably has run at least 30-40 years or more beyond 1965.

All documents can be considered historical, and the point in referencing the one in my previous post is that you were attempting to buttress Vallée's claim by assuming that no important and relevant secret information would ever be released to public about the nuclear silo program, and within a few minutes I was able to find one that includes even more sensitive information than a mere readiness testing scenario, but that also includes a section on readiness testing, and no mention is made of faking incursions by UFOs ( alien craft ).

I'm only going by what Vallee knows, but I don't believe he is lying. I already posted previously there is secondary evidence these same type of UFO objects were used near Dulce and the cattle dissections! Eye witness accounts by Police officer Valdez and others I believe, and photos from Bennewitz add to that evidence. Also, Mirage Men mentions this same practice too. That is independent verification from more than two different sources. I choose to believe it, and I realize there will be no FOIA about this, imo.

I also doubt that Vallée is fabricating the story. But UFO researchers have been fooled in the past. For example @Decker discovered that one of the sources ufologist Timothy Good quoted in his original printing of Above Top Secret, had claimed to be a military pilot, but was in fact a fraud. Does Vallée's give us a name that can be verified? Did he make any substantial effort to verify the source's credentials? I don't know.

Your standards of evidence are different. It may be very likely in the next 10-30 years the documents will be declassified, but I'm not here to convince you of anything you won't accept anyway. So much of the UFO & ET phenomena is based on witness accounts and second sourced information, so unless I can directly experience ET or a UFO... then it's all at least second sourcing whether FOIA or Vallee.

It's true that I'm fairly skeptical for a ufologist, but it's not a matter of convincing me of something I won't accept. It's a matter of providing evidence I can have a high degree of confidence in. In that regard I'm not unreasonable. For example, I'm a proponent of evidence from reliable firsthand witnesses, whereas most skeptics I've debated issues with will flat out reject the testimony of witnesses. Also, although a summary of official firsthand reports by an author could be considered hearsay, there is still a chain of evidence that allows us to do some checking and assign it a high degree of confidence. For example Ruppelt's The Report On Unidentified Flying Objects is a book that I think we can assign a high degree of confidence to.

Most importantly, don't get me wrong here. We're just discussing the idea through a bit of friendly debate in the hope that it might shed some light on the issue or shake something loose. There's absolutely no intention to run you into the ground on it ( as some who have taken offense to my persistence in the past have incorrectly assumed ). Personally, I think that some sort of secret readiness testing involving faked UFOs is an interesting possibility, and I've even suggested a similar explanation for the high-strangeness goings-on at the Skinwalker Ranch. So who knows? I don't. It would certainly go down as an interesting facet of ufology history if it turns out to be true, and I have to thank you for mentioning it. It makes for some very interesting discussion.

 

[DissectionStalker]

Excellent post, Soupie. Cuts right to the chase.

I replied to that post, which I believe exposed 'that' post as distorting [not intentionally] what I'm suggesting. So, it does 'not' "cut to the chase" unless you want to be misinformed. Wink.

 

[DissectionStalker]

Personally, I think that some sort of secret readiness testing involving faked UFOs is an interesting possibility, and I've even suggested a similar explanation for the high-strangeness goings-on at the Skinwalker Ranch.

I had been posting initially in the Skinwalker Skinner thread, and I think there is enough "evidence" with what I found for it to be Human caused events for various reasons.

The two things you seemed to have overlooked is:

1) Your Historical document (<--labeled by the Air Force as such) is just that -History "on file" and declassified, whereas I already know the Covert UFO Probe Ops went into at least the '90's. That's 35 years beyond your 1965 History document about corrective measures already taken. The Covert UFO Probe Ops is still active [at least through the 90's] and still classified, so no FOIA "useful info" anyway. You have to wait! This is Strategic Covert Ops that is so compartmentalized within A.F. OSI [or higher] that the "need to know" is extremely limited. The people below don't know jack. That's why outside OSI interrogations or NDA's were done with any witnesses.

2) I gave other independent sources already named in the previous post, which reveal this technique was used in other Black Ops too. That leads me to a HIGH confidence level this was happening during those decades at least. You did not seem to address those points I made, which are very relevant, imo. There are several independent sources and witnesses to this
type of PSYOPS.

Btw, what do you think the 5 top ET-UFO cases are that have NO military connections [including proximity to bases or test ranges or crashes, etc.] relating to the events or sightings.

(Btw, ufology, you've seemed very polite with me, and I've taken no offense with any of your posts to me. On another matter, I know I went over the top in the Skinwalker thread at least a few times. LOL. Sorry Ryan. But I still think the book error with the Charles M. initial was extremely misleading and deceptive too! That stinks BS.)

 

[Constance]

You missed my word 'probability' like assigning probabilities using the Drake equation; we have no choice but to use a sorting system to get to the best cases without "the pollution" of other confounding variables -military, etc. Use 'assigning probability' in place of my belief words and then you can understand what I'm getting at.

'Assigning probability' is what we all do, based on our reading and research. The question is what is the basis in evidence and reasoning upon which you assign your probability claim? This is not a rhetorical question. The ETH hypothesis has been developed on the basis of six decades of ufo research in countries around the planet. Have you read it all, or most of it, or even a great deal of it? I have yet to see you summarize the evidence and reasoning for your claims. It can't be simply, as you've indicated so far, reading between the lines in Vallee's fiction and his recent remarks in the podcast you linked, with your added belief (again dependent on Vallee) that there must be a 'control system' managed by 'higher entities from another dimension' and/or by US military PsyOps reaching around the planet since the 1940s to generate a myth or a meme. Or is that all that grounds your certainty?

What is your "Drake equation" to find the best UFO cases?

?? I'm afraid that question doesn't make sense to me.

Give us your top five. You certainly are very well read, so have you got a list of your top five UFO cases?

I could do that, but what would the sequence be? Endless chats pro and con on those 5 cases? Where would that get anyone? My view that the ETH is a viable hypothesis for many ufo events, sightings, physical traces, physical evidence, pilot and astronaut and cosmonaut reports, cover-ups, disinformation, and reasoning about all of the preceding is the result of extensive reading about all of the preceding since 1997. I can't summarize all of that for you on a message board.

Also, did you listen to the Vallee youtube yet? See Post #122. Please check that post, because I gave you the time marks for both events. Comments?

I'll do it tomorrow.

 

[DissectionStalker]

I could do that, but what would the sequence be? Endless chats pro and con on those 5 cases? Where would that get anyone? My view that the ETH is a viable hypothesis for many ufo events, sightings, physical traces, physical evidence, pilot and astronaut and cosmonaut reports, cover-ups, disinformation, and reasoning about all of the preceding is the result of extensive reading about all of the preceding since 1997. I can't summarize all of that for you on a message board.

I tracked down the Vallee interview for you to directly hear it with time markers, no less. You've had plenty of time since '97 to do a Top 5 based on the limited criteria I asked for. Please, be helpful to me too! You can give me a representative Top 5 that is close enough. It's not set in stone, so if you think of another one to add or replace -no problem! Btw, what got you started in '97?

So, with that in mind: What do you think the 5 top ET-UFO cases are that have NO military connections [including proximity to bases or test ranges or crashes, etc.] relating to the events or sighting. (No need to elaborate or summarize unless you want to.)

Thank you, sincerely!

?? I'm afraid that question doesn't make sense to me.

Just Google the Drake Equation and reread my most recent posts in this thread to understand my meaning. Wink. To get you started from a previous post below:

You missed my word 'probability' like assigning probabilities using the Drake equation; we have no choice but to use a sorting system to get to the best cases without "the pollution" of other confounding variables -military, etc. Use 'assigning probability' in place of my belief words and then you can understand what I'm getting at.

What is your "Drake equation" to find the best UFO cases?

 

[Randall]

... The two things you seemed to have overlooked is:

1) Your Historical document (<--labeled by the Air Force as such) is just that -History "on file" and declassified, whereas I already know the Covert UFO Probe Ops went into at least the '90's.

You "already know the Covert UFO Probe Ops went into at least the '90's." ? I must have missed something someplace. You know this how? Or are you really saying that you believe it to be the case based on the same unsubstantiated claims you've already mentioned?

2) I gave other independent sources already named in the previous post, which reveal this technique was used in other Black Ops too. That leads me to a HIGH confidence level this was happening during those decades at least. You did not seem to address those points I made, which are very relevant, imo. There are several independent sources and witnesses to this type of PSYOPS.

Seems to me that when we're talking about Valdez, we're actually talking about Valdez junior reporting about his father, and personally I don't find the story believable enough to give me "high confidence" in it. The Bennewitz case is believable to the extent that some military people were playing games with him, but that isn't the same as having an entire black-ops program in place for the readiness testing of nuclear missile silos.

I haven't seen Mirage Men so I don't know what evidence they actually dug up to support the idea ( other than whatever claims Doty may have made in it ), and I don't have particularly high confidence in Doty either. On the other hand, John Alexander's military credentials are obviously genuine, he was directly involved in psychological warfare, wrote a book about UFOs, and I don't recall him mentioning anything about such a program. That's not to say that there couldn't have been such a program, only that once again, there's no convincing evidence.

Btw, what do you think the 5 top ET-UFO cases are that have NO military connections [including proximity to bases or test ranges or crashes, etc.] relating to the events.

Interesting question. I guess it depends on what you mean by "NO military connection". It seems that all the top cases have some military connection, at least by way of investigation. Even the JAL case involved tracking by a military radar. Abduction cases don't typically involve the military, but they're at the bottom of my credibility scale. Here's the first five that came to my mind in no particular order:

1. December 11th, 1996 Fox Lake incident in Canada's Yukon Territory.
2. May 20, 1967 Falcon Lake case
3. October 4, 1967 Shag Harbor incident.
4. September 16, 1994, Ariel School incident in Ruwa, Zimbabwe.
5. April 6, 1966, Westall School case in Melbourne Australia

What are yours?

 

[DissectionStalker]

You "already know the Covert UFO Probe Ops went into at least the '90's." ? [...] Or are you really saying that you believe it to be the case based on the same unsubstantiated claims you've already mentioned?

It is substantiated by Vallee. And, this is missing the point I'm making: that this "need to know" highly classified "security probes" won't be found for FOIA anytime soon, imo.

Seems to me that when we're talking about Valdez, we're actually talking about Valdez junior reporting about his father, [...]

No, it's both. You'll have to listen to 4-6 online audio interviews with each of them to get a clear picture of what was going on.

The Bennewitz case is believable to the extent that some military people were playing games with him, but that isn't the same as having an entire black-ops program in place for the readiness testing of nuclear missile silos.

It's pics of classified UFOs at Kirkland AFB (and elsewhere) AND its relationship to cattle dissections.

I haven't seen Mirage Men so I don't know what evidence they actually dug up to support the idea ( other than whatever claims Doty may have made in it ), [...]

Not just Doty. They found someone in Special Forces connected to a Bioweapons security attachment that also flew in helicopters in the USA doing Black Ops disguised as UFOs.

John Alexander's military credentials are obviously genuine, [...]

NDA's Bigelow -he signed away his ability to be believed about most anything after that. He would be into disinformation anyway. He is not released from his secrecy agreements w/military. Plus, he hyped the incredibly stupid video cable/tape dismantling at the ranch as if that was not Human caused. BS.

I'm trying to find a Top 5. JAL might be one from the '80's.

 

[Soupie]

I replied to that post, which I believe exposed 'that' post as distorting [not intentionally] what I'm suggesting. So, it does 'not' "cut to the chase" unless you want to be misinformed.

It does cut to the chase: your "black ops" model cannot account for the entirety of the UAP/UHI phenomenon.

There are many UAP/UHI cases that cannot be explained via the "black ops" theory - including some cases, such as Rendleshem, that you apparently believe can. You indicate that witnesses in that case disagree about what they saw. Well no shit. If they witnessed a UAP, as they report, that means... They were unable to identify it!

My post above noted resources that document additional cases, such as those outlined in Kean's book.

Also, please explain the Chilean UAP photos above via your "black ops" theory. Wink. Nod. Wink. Wink.

PS Thanks for eliminating all caps from your writing.

 

[DissectionStalker]

It does cut to the chase: your "black ops" model cannot account for the entirety of the UAP/UHI phenomenon.

There are many UAP/UHI cases that cannot be explained via the "black ops" theory - including some cases, such as Rendleshem, that you apparently believe can. You indicate that witnesses in that case disagree about what they saw. Well no shit. If they witnessed a UAP, as they report, that means... They were unable to identify it!

Please quote me where I say black ops account for the entirety of the UAP/UHI phenomenon.

You certainly need to learn a lot more about Rendelsham than what I know vs what you wrote above! Do yourself a favor and listen to the Jacques Vallee interview I gave you the link to. It even has time marks.

The Chilean photos may be real and the story true, but those photos suck big time! Just because weathermen say there can be no clouds does 'not' mean there can be no clouds. Those type of clouds appear at high altitudes quite often. It's interesting, but the person that took the photos didn't give a crap about it. He did nothing with the photos. Strange, indeed.

 

[Soupie]

Re: the control system.

How are UAP/UHI used to "control" humans/human culture? I've been reading Vallee interviews and articles in an effort to suss this out. (Haven't read books yet.)

As noted, most (but not all) humans, upon having or learning about a UAP/UHI experience, come to believe the UAP/UHI were extraterrestrial.

Keep in mind that we have Vallee and McKenna suggesting that this appearance of being ET is a sham. In other words, there really is a phenomena that has physical and mental components, and it appears on its face to be ET, but it is not, ultimately, extraterrestrial. The reason for the deception is control. To control what?

Quickly: Vallee notes an interesting physical aspect of a UAP case in one of the articles I quoted above. An older couple had seen a UAP apparently take of from land. Left behind were melted metal and sand. However, the sand, upon inspection, appeared to be non-natural, ie it was apparently manufactured sand. Bizarre. This is the element of deception that Vallee is referring to.

Also, I've wondered why seemingly random people have these UAP/UHI experiences. Look no further than the Chilean case documented above. How can these random, seemingly unconnected cases be used for "control."

I haven't been able to locate a definitive answer to this question; if Vallee answers it, I haven't found it. Here are two ideas. I'd like to explore more:

1) A terrestrial, human PTB are behind the global deception. The motive is to convince the global populace, including government bodies, that Stage One, ETs are real, and Stage Two, ETs pose a threat to Earth and humans. This "threat" will provide the TPB with the social control it needs to take complete control of the global economy and political system — Homeworld Security.

2) A dimensional/spiritual "species" of entities is masquerading as ETs to trick humans into doing what the spirits want. What do the spirits want? The allegiance of humans.

More specifically, in some branches of the Fundamentalist Christian religion, there will be a rapture that occurs before the antichrist (and satan) overtly take control of the Earth. The rapture will include the sudden "taking up into heaven" of millions of "believers."

The idea is that the antichrist and satan will "control" the remaining humans by claiming that the rapture was not spiritual in nature, but rather was related to ETs. That is, the antichrist will claim that spiritually raptured humans were instead taken by aliens in a mass abduction.

[Anecdotally, when my mother was in her 20s, her grandmother was a member of the Theosophy Society. Among other things, my great grandmother believed she was in communication with ETs from Venus. (Or at least she had books that expressed this message.) My great grandmother wanted my mother to join the society as well and gave her a book about it.

My mother was also being introduced to fundamental Christianity at the same time. In the book given to my mother by her grandmother, it noted that humans would be taken by aliens in a mass abduction, and that Christians would claim it was the rapture. My mother didn't know anything about the rapture at the time. However, when she learned about the rapture in her bible classes, she recalled this passage from the book my great grandmother had given her.]

Both of these motives for control are dubious and require belief in global/reality systems that may or may not be true. Furthermore, I'm dubious that any terrestrial, human organization would have the time, technology, and resources to perpetrate an ET hoax on the scale that the UAP/UHI phenomenon demonstrably operates.

The spiritual/demon rapture-hoax is dubious as well as it requires belief in the reality of the fundamentalist Christian story. However, the powerful spiritual entities could accomplish such as task is more believable than a purely terrestrial source.

Take for instance the example of the faux sand above. To me, I can conceptualize spiritual entities producing this manufactured, crude, simplistic "sand" in an effort to simply provide some physical trace. Whereas if it were terrestrial actors behind the hoax, they would simply use real sand.

Anyhow, just some food for thought. I'd like to continue to explore potential motives and actors that may be behind this theorized systematic control system.

 

[Soupie]

Here's a review of a Nick Redfern book in which the concept of UAP/UHI = demons is discussed. It involves a supposed real government group called the Collins Elite which arrived at the conclusion that UAP/UHI were demons. It's the topic of Redfern's book, and the reviewer - who some of you might be familiar with - offers a non-mainstream Christian perspective on this concept.

Collins Elite

... My illustration above was from the non-fiction world. The most successful fiction in Christian circles was of course Left Behind. How is it that millions of readers could simply absorb the ideas in Left Behind and have no idea that all its ideas derive from certain assumptions brought *to* the biblical text. Most Christians have no idea these ideas are *not* self evident realities in the Bible but only hold true if certain outright guesses are correct. Here’s a sampling of what I mean.

I ask again, are Christians really this theologically illiterate? Yes. And that includes those in the CE if the content of Final Events is any indication. Didn’t anyone in the CE ever really study eschatology? Aren’t they aware of how tenuous *any* position on end times really is? Did they not filter their “observations” and speculations through any other grid? Did they know any other grid even existed? If the Armageddon / Rapture position they cling to isn’t correct, what then? Was this given any thought at all? How might that position be used anyway to demoralize the Church even if it isn’t correct? Again, if the CE was so careless at analysis here, why should I trust anything else they’re thinking about? At least give some indication that end times has several possible scenarios (but maybe Tim LaHaye heads the CE!). At least Ray Boeche (a key contact person mentioned early in the book) is aware that there are issues here.

 

[Burnt State]

I'm really locked in on the parallels between the experiences of 1) entheogen users, 2) occultists, and 3) contactees.

It could be a mere coincidence that all three report absurd but seemingly very real interactions with UHI that are sometimes benign, sometimes helpful, and sometimes sinister.

A bunch of things:

Tricky Parallel Experiences
Ufology, glad to have you posting back again here and there. Your breadth of knowledge and focused position is a really important cornerstone in fleshing out this discussion as do each of the other positions that are unfolding here as each of the many possibilities of what UFO/UAP/UHI are all about seem to be represented here for the most part, though no hardcore pro "alien abduction human hybridization" person has come to the table yet. Where's David Jacobs when you need him, probably hypnotizing someone. But with regards to alien species coming down completing all these rudimentary biology tests i find that to be utterly improbable. If they are sophisticated enough to travel here then they've got light rays that they can beam into our soil, or simple sensors that would detect immediately what's what, and whose DNA has unique RNA features yadda yadda.

Like the manufactured sand that Soupie was talking about, the airship sightings near the turn of the century, foo fighters of the wars, and all the other bizarre "just ahead of us technology" and reports regarding encounters with UHI, not to mention all the weird middle of nowhere sightings that seem to happen most often to a handful of people or just one, there's something fishy going on around here. And this fishiness has taken place for a really long time. That's why i think James Carrion's take on Ghost Rockets is a limited out and only answers for a portion of the sightings.

Certainly a huge chunk of sightings is concerned with our belief systems and the power of mythology over the human race - so yes, imho, the Jungian component should not be overlooked as it plays a major role in transforming very mundane objects into UFO sightings as well as a means to interpret intriguing, abnormal external stimuli & account for how we process odd biological hiccups and sudden alterations in consciousness.

So Soupie, i think that the parallels that you see taking place regarding UHI between those three groups has way more to do with a powerful history of socio-cultural frontloading and their manufacturing of belief systems than anything else. When you think of how the belief in Christianity can routinely cause parents all over america, annually, to have exorcisms performed on their own children resulting in death, well it's not much of a stretch for that group of three to encounter very specific demons, alien entities and space-brothers. Is the superspectrum just something that exists in our minds perhaps?

What's it All About: the Alien Mirage?
Regarding the two possibilities that Soupie was outlining in the last post: the idea of a tricksterish entity, ultraterrestrials, intraterrestrials, "Gaian theory revolt of the plant life" has some real merit. I say this because the reports don't add up, don't make sense, seem to be purposely messing with us on an individual & collective level, and the Invisible College verified this long ago. So something is really going on in our physical world affecting radar, leaving ground traces and appearing as if the point of origin is extraterrestrial. But that doesn't make it so because some of the stuff that they get up to, from UHI contact to their myriad shapes and appearances on the ground or pinging off radar in aerial cat and mouse games are just perplexing. Is this exerting an element of control or is it because of previous belief systems that we that ascribe this control to the phenomenon? i don't think it wants alignment or worship - if it wanted that then it needs to land on the white house lawn and the pope's lawn and then maybe i could see that as motive, but this is much more subtle, weirdly subtle even, as if the appearances happen by accident, despite all their intentionality.

personally, i really like the idea of planetary consciousness, the living collective of the flora co-opting our own historical belief systems, values and imagery to try to entice us off-world, a gentle green nudge to get us to stop killing this planet and start to see it a little more clearly from space as a rare host and habitat, that whether by chance or design, sustains us perfectly. it has room enough to hold all our bodies in its loamy arms when we die and we should appreciate it more, care for it better and stretch ourselves to be better, leave the nest and get on with our larger potentials, defeating gravity, exploring the cosmos and learning how to be off-worlders, like all those strange ships we see in the sky. but that's me and i'm a little weird when it comes to planetary appreciation. i also understand that it bears a lot of resemblance to contactee rhetoric - we're both just a product of environmental consciousness.

But there's no question about it that the PTB have indeed taken advantage of the UFO narrative and have propagated their own approach & interpretation for their own purposes across wide swatch of society. I don't think it's a stretch to complete psyops experiments at the most sensitive of guarded nuclear installations either. No soldier worth their nuclear responsible grit is firing wildly on any light in the sky, invading alien etc. without being given orders to first. Wouldn't you do such things if you ran such environments and would want to know how soldiers will perform when pushed to the most extreme cases, even if it resulted in high incidents of suicide or stress induced trauma? I mean a moral person might not, but military leaders can stomach different tolerances than civilians for obvious reasons. And the military may have their own evidence and know a little bit more but probably not much more.

A Five Case Addendum:
Those five cases that ufology put out there are probably five of my personal favourites though i'd like to put 4 & 5 at a tie for their similarities and include Pascagoula as the definitive abduction case (though it has the same problem as Falcon Lake where there really should have been secondary witnesses but there aren't for some unknown reason):

1. December 11th, 1996 Fox Lake incident in Canada's Yukon Territory. (this one's debatable as it does coincide with a massive a re-entry of human manufacture: "When he returned, Oberg contacted the Canadian satellite expert Ted Molczan with the details of this case. Molczan is probably the world's top civilian expert on observing earth satellites and calculating satellite orbits. Molczan looked into the matter carefully, and came up with an exact match: "the observed phenomena were due to the re-entry of the 2nd stage of the rocket that placed Cosmos 2335 into orbit earlier the same day." Should anyone doubt this, Molczan provides details of the mathematical calculations that support this conclusion."Bad UFOs: Skepticism, UFOs, and The Universe: "Top Ten" UFO Case - Yukon, Canada, 1996 - BUSTED! Personally i find the compelling witness reports simply do not coincide in any way with burning debris re-entering the atmosphere.)
2. May 20, 1967 Falcon Lake case (Sentry brought up Chris Rutkowski's analysis of this event and why there's some issues regarding the lack of observance by secondary witnesses http://www.nicap.org/articles/670520falconlake_JUFOS.pdf
3. October 4, 1967 Shag Harbor incident. (we know something landed and made weird foam in the water and was tracked by two militaries, possible recovered, but no one knows what the hell it was or where it went really, but, like Kecksburg, it's one of those definitive "something landed from space" cases.)
4. September 16, 1994, Ariel School incident in Ruwa, Zimbabwe.
5. April 6, 1966, Westall School case in Melbourne Australia (both these school cases are tops in wonderful details and drawings, fueled by children who did not recant testimony later on in life. they're both real head scratchers but have no real proof, secondary evidence etc., just very compelling narratives for us to parse through over time. where are the secondary witnesses for these events - very limited again, puzzling as always.)

 

[Randall]

A bunch of things:

Tricky Parallel Experiences
Ufology, glad to have you posting back again here and there. Your breadth of knowledge and focused position is a really important cornerstone in fleshing out this discussion as do each of the other positions that are unfolding here as each of the many possibilities of what UFO/UAP/UHI are all about seem to be represented here for the most part, though no hardcore pro "alien abduction human hybridization" person has come to the table yet. Where's David Jacobs when you need him, probably hypnotizing someone. But with regards to alien species coming down completing all these rudimentary biology tests i find that to be utterly improbable. If they are sophisticated enough to travel here then they've got light rays that they can beam into our soil, or simple sensors that would detect immediately what's what, and whose DNA has unique RNA features yadda yadda.

Thanks . Regarding the superiority of alien biological science, the evidence ( by way of witness reports ), indicates that while there are a few cases of miraculous healing, most of the incidents involve technology similar to our own, and in a previous post, I gave a few reasons why this is perfectly logical and should be expected to some degree. To quickly review:

1. Because aliens possess advanced transportation technology doesn't mean we can safely assume they also possess an equally advanced understanding of biological science, especially of species other than their own found on another planet.
2. Our own understanding of biology now extends all the way down to the atomic level and we are manipulating it at the molecular level. This is far from being technologically primitive, and therefore it's possible, if not likely that we know more about us than a visiting alien would. We may be equally alien to them as they are to us. Additionally, because atoms and molecules are the fundamental building blocks of all matter in the universe, they represent a common playing field for virtually all scientific study. Therefore any alien scientific study would be dealing with exactly the same physical elements, and would therefore we should expect similar science to be involved. While much can be learned from distant observations of the natural environment, other experiments and studies require controlled conditions using physical samples, and that requires gathering them and studying them in a lab.

A Five Case Addendum:
Those five cases that ufology put out there are probably five of my personal favourites though i'd like to put 4 & 5 at a tie for their similarities and include Pascagoula as the definitive abduction case (though it has the same problem as Falcon Lake where there really should have been secondary witnesses but there aren't for some unknown reason):

1. December 11th, 1996 Fox Lake incident in Canada's Yukon Territory. (this one's debatable as it does coincide with a massive a re-entry of human manufacture: "When he returned, Oberg contacted the Canadian satellite expert Ted Molczan with the details of this case. Molczan is probably the world's top civilian expert on observing earth satellites and calculating satellite orbits. Molczan looked into the matter carefully, and came up with an exact match: "the observed phenomena were due to the re-entry of the 2nd stage of the rocket that placed Cosmos 2335 into orbit earlier the same day." Should anyone doubt this, Molczan provides details of the mathematical calculations that support this conclusion."Bad UFOs: Skepticism, UFOs, and The Universe: "Top Ten" UFO Case - Yukon, Canada, 1996 - BUSTED! Personally i find the compelling witness reports simply do not coincide in any way with burning debris re-entering the atmosphere.)

I'm familiar with the space junk re-entry theory, but IMO it doesn't adequately explain the incident.

2. May 20, 1967 Falcon Lake case (Sentry brought up Chris Rutkowski's analysis of this event and why there's some issues regarding the lack of observance by secondary witnesses http://www.nicap.org/articles/670520falconlake_JUFOS.pdf​

Lack of corroboration is a reasonable objection. Although nobody else saw Michalak and the UFO at the same time, there were other sightings in the vicinity around the same time. Plus there is insufficient evidence to conclude the incident was a hoax. It is considered to be an "unknown".

3. October 4, 1967 Shag Harbor incident. (we know something landed and made weird foam in the water and was tracked by two militaries, possible recovered, but no one knows what the hell it was or where it went really, but, like Kecksburg, it's one of those definitive "something landed from space" cases.)​

True, but I think it's a little less vague than that. "On the night of 04 October 1967, shortly after 11:00 PM, a UFO some 60 feet in diameter was seen to hover over the water near the tiny fishing village of Shag Harbour, Nova Scotia. The UFO, which displayed four bright lights that flashed in sequence, tilted to a 45-degree angle and descended rapidly towards the water's surface. Upon impact, there was a bright flash and an explosive roar." - UFO Evidence

4. September 16, 1994, Ariel School incident in Ruwa, Zimbabwe.
5. April 6, 1966, Westall School case in Melbourne Australia
​

(both these school cases are tops in wonderful details and drawings, fueled by children who did not recant testimony later on in life. they're both real head scratchers but have no real proof, secondary evidence etc., just very compelling narratives for us to parse through over time. where are the secondary witnesses for these events - very limited again, puzzling as always.

Also true, but then again what is proof? Proof is simply enough evidence to make someone believe a claim is true. Some people require less or different kinds of evidence than others before a claim has been proven to their satisfaction. When it comes to UFOs, there is always debate over the evidence, so all we can do is try to do our best with what we have, and these are the first 5 non-military cases that came to mind.

What are some that you think deserve to be on the list? Maybe if we had a top 10 or 20, we could narrow it down to the top 5.

 

[Ufocurious]

What are some that you think deserve to be on the list? Maybe if we had a top 10 or 20, we could narrow it down to the top 5.

How about the ones we saw?Instead of making a list of cases that happened to others, we could post our and see if we could debunk our sightings. Any reasonable impediment to do that?

 

[Randall]

How about the ones we saw? Instead of making a list of cases that happened to others, we could post our and see if we could debunk our sightings. Any reasonable impediment to do that?

That is a really great idea. We might need a separate thread though. There is this thread, but other sightings are strewn around the forum. If someone created a set of links on a single post to start with, then we could all comment and start prioritizing them. We'd also need some set of criteria, and since nobody has any verifiable scientifically valid evidence, we'd have to accept that as a given, and work with other factors.

 

[Soupie]

Here's an article about currently existing isolated human tribes. I think it offers an interesting parallel to the UAP/UHI phenomenon.

BBC - Future - Anthropology: The sad truth about uncontacted tribes

... In some cases in the 70s and 80s, the Brazilian government did try to establish peaceful contact with indigenous people, often with the aim of forced assimilation or relocation. They set up “attraction posts” – offerings of metal tools and other things indigenous Indians might find to be valuable – to try and lure them out of hiding. This sometimes led to violent altercations, or, more often than not, disease outbreaks. Isolated people have no immunity to some bugs, which have been known to wipe out up to half of a village’s population in a matter of weeks or months. During those years, missionaries traipsing into the jungle also delivered viruses and bacteria along with Bibles, killing the people they meant to save.

In 1987, Sydney Possuelo – then head of Funai’s Department of Unknown Tribes – decided that the current way of doing things was unacceptable. After seeing tribe after tribe demolished by disease, he concluded that isolated people should not be contacted at all. Instead, natural reserves should be placed aside for them to live on, and any contact attempts should be left up to them to initiate. “Isolated people do not manifest among us – they don’t ask anything of us – they live and die mostly without our knowledge,” he says. When we do contact them, he says, they too often share a common fate: “desecration, disease and death.”

Viral event

Unfortunately, history seems to be repeating itself. Three weeks after the Indians in Acre made contact, Funai announced that several of them had contracted the flu. All of them subsequently received treatment and vaccinations, but they soon returned to the forest. The fear, now, is that they will carry the foreign virus back with them to their home, spreading it to others who have no natural immunity.

“It’s hard to say what’s going to happen, other than to make doomsday predictions,” Hill says. “So far, things are looking just like they looked in the past.”

Possuelo – who was fired from Funai in 2006 after a disagreement with his boss over some of these concerns – issues a more direct warning: “What they do in Acre is very worrying: they are going to kill the isolated people,” he says. “The president of Funai and the Head of the Isolated Indians Department should be held accountable for not meeting established standards.” (Funai did not respond to interview requests for this story.)

Surprisingly, no international protocol exists that outlines how to avoid this predicament. “Every government and group involved in making contact just wings it according to their own resources and experiences,” Hill says.

The common problem is a lack of institutional memory. Even in places like Brazil with decades of experience, Hill says, “each new government official takes on the task without knowing much about what happened in the past.” Some officials, he adds, have minimal expertise. “Quasi-amateur is what I’d call them: government officials who come in with no medical, anthropological or epidemiological training.” ...

When accidental harm from the outside world seems inevitable, Hill argues it would be better if we initiated contact. Slowly building up a long-distance friendship, he explains, and then carrying out a controlled contact meeting with medical personnel on site would be preferable. After that initial contact is made, anthropologists should be prepared to go back into the forest with the group and stay on site to monitor the situation for several months, as well as build up trust and communication. That way, if an epidemic should break out, help can be called for. “You can’t just tell them after 15 minutes, ‘Oh, by the way, if your whole village gets sick, send everyone out to this spot to get medical treatment,’” Hill says. “They won’t comply with that.”

 

[DissectionStalker]

I think it offers an interesting parallel to the UAP/UHI phenomenon.

But, if the ET's have been coming here for decades or more, then they should have the protective technology already developed. Plus, the ET's could "contact" anytime with protective gear. We have bio-suits for the same protective purposes.

IF ET abductions are real, then we are already at the disadvantage. They should be able to wipe us out by now with some bio-weapons strategy or hybridize too.

 

[Soupie]

But, if the ET's have been coming here for decades or more, then they should have the protective technology already developed. Plus, the ET's could "contact" anytime with protective gear. We have bio-suits for the same protective purposes.

IF ET abductions are real, then we are already at the disadvantage. They should be able to wipe us out by now with some bio-weapons strategy or hybridize too.

And what's to say that everything you've described isn't the case?

 

[DissectionStalker]

And what's to say that everything you've described isn't the case?

Well, what's to say that everything I've described is the case? Wink.

I don't understand your parallel points you were making considering ET can contact as ET wishes -neither ET or Human is incapable of protecting itself from bio-hazards during initial contact or otherwise. IF you believe in all the ET contacts already with Humans, then both sides have been exposed long ago!

 

[Soupie]

Well, what's to say that everything I've described is the case? Wink.

As has already been explained, you've got a lifetime of work ahead of you if you mean to definitively explain every UAP/UHI case as a black operation, haha.

IF you believe in all the ET contacts already with Humans, then both sides have been exposed long ago!

Perhaps they have. And perhaps there have been horrible repercussions. Perhaps death of terrestrial life.

But my guess is that any ET would know the potential for spread of disease and act accordingly, by 1) having a no contact policy, 2) wearing bio suits, or 3) using machines.

However, I wouldn't expect all to honor the no contact policy. I think it's theoretically possible there could be multiple ET with multiple agenda.

I'm honestly quite agnostic when it comes to the UAP/UHI phenomena; I vacillate between it being a purely psychological phenomena, a transdimentional (spiritual) phenomena, and the ETH. I think the human/black operation aspect is certainly a reality, but it does not account for the entire phenomena (which predates the history of black operations).