New Jacques Vallee Interview:

[manxman]

Me too.

 

[DissectionStalker]

Vallee would have to offer more than the word of a single anonymous claimant to persuade me that he can account for any, much less all, anomalous incursions over SAC missile sites -- and Rendelsham Bentwaters -- as Black Ops 'testing' or disinformation.

Me too.

IF you seek the truth, and want to know the truth, then all you have to do is listen to the Noory interview. Here, is the Youtube version...

Please listen to it, and PLEASE COMMENT...

No Excuses allowed...

Of course, I don't expect you to believe Vallee at this point. Both of you have already made-up your minds. Too bad... I think he is telling the truth. To save time you can start at the 27min mark. Rendelsham Bentwaters is at the 53min mark.

 

[Randall]

You're blind sided by your belief and naivety that revealing Covert Black Ops Top Secret Nuclear Weapons Probe Testing Protocols ...will ever be made public! No way! Doing that reveals strengths and weaknesses and helps potential enemies. Duhhh! That's not happening! Ever! Especially, considering another layer of security with Homeland Security after 911. Be blind to this all you want. You're being very naive about National Security protocols and secrecy at missile launch sites, imo ...

I'm not so sure that we can all be as certain as you are that readiness testing procedures for nuclear missiles will never be made public. Consider the formerly classified document, USAF BALLISTIC MISSILE PROGRAMS 1964-1966 by Bernard C. Nalty, in which we find such things as:

BEGIN QUOTE

INSURING THE CONTINUED EFFECTIVENESS OF THE OPERATIONAL FORCE​

​

To insure the effectiveness of the missile force, SAC conducted periodic operational readiness inspections and tests of its missiles and crews. During fiscal year 1965 the testing phase included a launch of a modified Minuteman ICBM from an inland operational site near Ellsworth AFB, S. D. The Air Force also investigated several possible innovations to improve the Minuteman system. One potentially serious problem given special attention was the vulnerability of Minuteman facilities to shock waves expected from nuclear detonations. A project 'was begun to harden the equipment to meet original design specifications ...

END QUOTE​

Clearly, formerly classified documents outlining in some detail the workings of these missile bases, including their monitoring for readiness have been made public, and there doesn't appear to be any mention of readiness testing involving the staging of faked UFO ( alien craft ) incursions. Also, like I've already mentioned, there have also been many thousands of pages of documents released under the FOIA where specific mentions of UFOs and the military were requested, and yet I've seen nothing in them that mention such a program. And let's face it, the information we're seeing in the linked report above includes specific dates, places, and technical specifications that are of a much more sensitive nature than simply making mention of virtually any type of readiness test. For example:

"Another, more difficult security problem was not so easily resolved. As early as the summer of 1962, the Air Staff was made aware that the underground cables which carried reports of the status of individual missiles were accessible to intruders who might interject false signals into the system that would misrepresent the condition of a weapon. Since development of lightweight system for tapping the cable and reproducing the impulses seemed unlikely at the time, no action was taken to encode status signals. By the end of 1963, however, the Ballistic Systems Division (BSD) had advised that it, and presumably any potential enemy, could produce just such a "spoofing" device. Out of this development and OSD insistence on the tightest possible control of Minuteman came a decision to encode status signals somewhat in the manner of "scrambled" telephone conversations."​

So I'm sorry to say, but believing faked UFO incursion readiness tests were done based on the faith in hearsay alone, and attempting to support that faith with the belief that because of its national security implications, it's so super secret that nobody would ever find out, doesn't even come close to qualifying as convincing evidence.

I'll admit that I can't prove that there was no such program ( because proving a negative like that is impossible ). But at the same time, being unable to prove there was no such program isn't evidence that there was such a program, and if such a program did exist, then providing reasonable proof-positive that it did exist should be possible, and since you're the proponent of the claim, it's your job to provide that evidence.

Again, I suggest that because we have seen above that information of an even more critical nature than a readiness testing program involving faked UFOs ( alien craft ) has been released, there's no reason that such a program should have remained secret. Therefore it's entirely reasonable to expect that there should be a mention of it someplace in the thousands upon thousands of pages already released under the FOIA or in publicly accessible archives. Find it, and I'll be happy to check it out.

In the meantime, although it's an interesting aside in the world of ufolore, and I have to thank you for mentioning it because it is very interesting in that context, unverifiable third-hand rumors about what some acquaintance of Vallée's allegedly said just isn't sufficient evidence to take the claim seriously.

 

[Ufocurious]

Vallee would have to offer more than the word of a single anonymous claimant to persuade me that he can account for any, much less all, anomalous incursions over SAC missile sites -- and Rendelsham Bentwaters -- as Black Ops 'testing' or disinformation.

But I have seen him saying so.Moreover, I published above the Bernadete case. Why hasn't he investigated that one? It is a case with physical proof, the medical documents from the hospital; and reliable witness. The cure happened in front of other people. WHY?!?!?!?!
Instead, he comes to Niteroi, the city in which, at that the period in time, General Uchoa, his son and family (and me too!) lived, and goes to investigate a case that has been turned inside out by Brazilian ufologists with no results. WHY?!?
My intuition keeps telling me: agenda!

 

[Ufocurious]

I did say agenda?!?
Gee.
I am letting my intuition pass through. I like that though. I am tired of hearsay.
I saw Bob Sallas in 2013. The lecture was so so. It is not because he is telling us the missiles were turned off by UFOs, that I will believe. But I give him the benefit of doubt.
On the other hand, at the same conference,we had a case of a civil pilot in Rio Grande do Sul who reported a massive UFO over the Lagoa dos Patos. Before he could land the TV reporters were already at the airport. Other people saw the UFO. At that time CINDACTA, our military radar system in Curitiba denied the existence of another flying craft with the small plane over the lagoon (giant BTW). But years later they sent him the original documents attesting that there was something flying with him.
I do like that: paper trail, witnesses, pictures. NEVER hearsay. Those are lore for me, interesting, but just stories.
But after reading this thread, I am playing with the idea that I will start to pay attention to the people that believe the American army, Greys, and Reptilians are all working together.

 

[DissectionStalker]

[...]if such a program did exist, then providing reasonable proof-positive that it did exist should be possible, and since you're the proponent of the claim, it's your job to provide that evidence.

Again, I suggest that because we have seen above that information of an even more critical nature than a readiness testing program involving faked UFOs ( alien craft ) has been released, there's no reason that such a program should have remained secret.

This is not a fair comparison by any means. Your example is considered a Historical document, but the program I mentioned continued on into the 90's -at least. So, it is unreasonable to compare your 1965 Historical declassified document to a highly classified program that probably has run at least 30-40 years or more beyond 1965.

That won't wash clean, imo, and this is unreasonable to expect otherwise. True enough, I'm only going by what Vallee knows, but I don't believe he is lying. I already posted previously there is secondary evidence these same type of UFO objects were used near Dulce and the cattle dissections! Eye witness accounts by Police officer Valdez and others I believe, and photos from Bennewitz add to that evidence. Also, Mirage Men mentions this same practice too. That is independent verification from more than two different sources. I choose to believe it, and I realize there will be no FOIA about this, imo.

Your standards of evidence are different. It may be very likely in the next 10-30 years the documents will be declassified, but I'm not here to convince you of anything you won't accept anyway.

So much of the UFO & ET phenomena is based on witness accounts and second sourced information, so unless I can directly experience ET or a UFO... then it's all at least second sourcing whether FOIA or Vallee.

 

[DissectionStalker]

I saw Bob Sallas in 2013. The lecture was so so. It is not because he is telling us the missiles were turned off by UFOs, that I will believe. But I give him the benefit of doubt.

Salas claims that he and his wife are ET abductees now. This was decades after he retired from the Air Force in 1985, but he's only revealed this recently after the disclosure hearings (???), so I'm finding this hard to believe it's real. It's great for selling books, though.

He might have seen the UFOs, but according to Vallee these were covert "security probes" controlled by Humans. I agree.

Snippet taken from OpenMinds.tv :

In 1985, when he lived with his wife Marilyn and their two children in Manhattan Beach, California, he saw a blue light emanating from the living room as he lay in bed. It was an unusual shade of blue and was glowing. He woke up his wife and she also saw the blue light. Salas tried to get up to investigate but suddenly realized he was unable to move.
“I remember fighting very hard to get my mobility back,” he recounted. “I couldn’t move anything. I couldn’t move my arms, my legs. I fought and fought. I fought because I had two small kids in the house and, of course, my wife.”

He tried to get Marilyn to help him but she was now unconscious. He saw someone in the doorway that appeared to be wearing a hood and had no discernible face. He next floated off the bed toward the locked bedroom window, which he felt certain they would be unable to unlock. Nevertheless, he went through the window in an upright position and was taken onboard a craft. He was shown a needle, eight to twelve inches in length, which was inserted into one of his testicles in order to collect semen. The pain was excruciating, and when Salas complained to his abductors, the pain suddenly ceased. This was followed by a physical checkup in which his back seemed to be of primary interest. He next remembers moving through a curved hallway and seeing a bright light before suddenly finding himself back in his bed.

Salas at first had no conscious recall of most of what happened that night. He was able to piece together the experience after working with three different hypnotherapists. A couple of weeks after his abduction, while it was still submerged in his memory, he recalls working in his yard and thinking to himself, I’ve been in space.

There are other elements in the aftermath of the experience that feel more like a dream or a vision to Salas. He recalls a large, black, oval, glassy eye with a rim around it; Marilyn in a large room being trained and “working” on a large metal box; a large tabletop screen with some sort of plan for Earth, activities and locations; and a doctor dressed in black who looks into a box containing instruments.

The experience continues to be very real for Salas and he does not doubt that it actually happened. He said he was speaking about it publicly because he thinks it is important to take alien abduction seriously.

 

[Ufocurious]

Salas claims that he and his wife are ET abductees now. I think several times too. This was decades after he retired from the Air Force, but after the disclosure hearings (???) and big media attention, so I'm finding this hard to believe it's real. It's great for selling books, though.

So, like Hollanda, after they take part on a UFO case with military involvement, they become abductees?
In this case I have 3 options. Sallas is:

1. lying (either as a disinformation agent or just for the $$$)
2. memory implant by very good hypnotizers with the help of a drug ot two
3. the greys and reptilians are real and working with the army.

I cannot stop laughing (in my mind) at what I wrote. Oh boy! My trickster side is raising its head. Time to go on a break. I cannot make fun of other people's beliefs. Specially if those people are really guinea pigs of psyops experiments. It would be a sad truth if psyops are real to the point of messing up lives.
All I want is just to explore what UFOs are.

 

[Soupie]

Stalker, I'm not sure what point you are so emphatically trying to make: Some UAP incidents, especially those relating to military installments, involve man-made "objects." Also, some people have profited from the ETH.

This is wonderful, but, yawn, it hardly comes close to explaining the UFO/UHI phenomenon. Meanwhile you have dismissed countless, multiple witness accounts some of which are backed with radar and/or photographic evidence with a wave of your hand.

In essence, what you seem to be suggesting is that 1) some UAP are military, and 2) the rest are simply misidentified natural phenomenon.

Is this your position? (And just so we're clear; that's certainly not Vallee's position.)

 

[Soupie]

I'm really locked in on the parallels between the experiences of 1) entheogen users, 2) occultists, and 3) contactees.

It could be a mere coincidence that all three report absurd but seemingly very real interactions with UHI that are sometimes benign, sometimes helpful, and sometimes sinister.

Here are two misc articles regarding Vallee's and others ideas about the phenomenon:

Jacques Vallee Discusses UFO Control System - UFO Evidence

"When the underlying archetypes are extracted," he wrote, "the saucer myth is seen to coincide to a remarkable degree with the fairy-faith of Celtic countries … religious miracles… and the widespread belief among all peoples concerning entities whose physical and psychological descriptions place them in the same category as the present-day ufonauts."

In The Invisible College (E.P. Dutton, 1975) Vallee posits the idea of a "control system." UFOs and related phenomena are "the means through which man's concepts are being rearranged." Their ultimate source may be unknowable, at least at this stage of human development; what we do know, according to Vallee, is that they are presenting us with continually recurring "absurd" messages and appearances which defy rational analysis but which nonetheless address human beings on the level of myth and imagination.

"When I speak of a control system for planet earth," he says, " I do not want my words to be misunderstood: I do not mean that some higher order of beings has locked us inside the constraints of a space-bound jail, closely monitored by psychic entities we might call angels or demons. I do not propose to redefine God. What I do mean is that mythology rules at a level of our social reality over which normal political and intellectual action has no power…." ...

But you're asking me what I think. I think there are physical data. They are very, very interesting. They may contain a message. My inclination is to look at the message both in a physical sense and in a symbolic sense, but that's because I'm an information scientist and not a physical scientist. I look for the meaning behind the object.

Let me give you an example of what I mean. Recently Paul Cerny investigated a case in northern California in which two older persons saw a UFO take off. Afterwards they saw a sort of ring on the ground. Within the ring they found some molten metal and a pile of sand.

Obviously here is physical evidence. Two tangible things - the molten metal, which turned out to be brass, and the sand. I took some of the latter to a geologist friend who knows about sand. He said it was highly unusual because it did not contain quartz and it was not stream sand or beach sand or residue from mining or anything else. It seemed to be artificial sand created from grinding together stones of different origin.

Well, to a physicist that may not mean too much. It's an indication of something that turns out to be absurd. We can put it alongside other cases of physical traces and then we may start looking for patterns which might lead us to a better understanding of the modus operandi of whoever's doing all this.

In that sense, yes, there is physical evidence. But if you mean physical evidence in the sense that we're going to discover somebody's propulsion system from it, I would have to say I don't expect that to happen. ...

Vallee: Not necessarily. We have evidence that the phenomenon has the ability to create a distortion of the sense of reality or to substitute artificial sensations for the real ones. Look at some of the more bizarre close encounter cases - for example the incident from South America in which one man believed he had been abducted by a UFO while his companion thought he had boarded a bus which had suddenly appeared on the road behind then.

It is conceivable that there is one phenomenon which is visual and another which creates the physical traces. What I'm saying is that a strange kind of deception may be involved.

And here's an admittedly very obscure, ehem, interesting source, but I thought it offered a good summation of some other thinking on this matter.

War in Heaven - The Invisible College - 06

After investigating hundreds of such cases, Vallee concluded that the early Ufologists had not been truly scientific when they dismissed UFO contact stories as hoaxes or hallucinations. Professional psychologists have tested many contactees with polygraphs, hypnosis, “truth” drugs, and a wide variety of psychoanalytic techniques, and have concluded that they are neither lying nor showing recognizable symptoms of psychotic delusion.

Vallee also learned that contactees all over the world, regardless of their background knowledge of the subject or their personality type, received similar information from the “space people” and underwent similar personality changes afterwards. This lead him to believe that “close encounters” with UFOs are not a purely subjective psychological phenomenon, but have an objective cause.

However, he didn’t find the “close encounter” stories consistent enough in their details to allow him to simply take them literally and conclude that the contactees had indeed met extraterrestrials face-to-face or been inside physical space ships. Instead, much of the evidence concerning UFO-encounters resembled descriptions of psychic and spiritual phenomena in occult literature. ...

As Vallee’s investigations went further, he gradually formed the opinion that the contactee phenomenon represents interference in human affairs by essentially benign forces. In 1975, he published The Invisible College, in which he recounts further cases of mental reprogramming through UFO encounters and cites evidence that similar encounters with “mysterious visitors” have been occurring for hundreds of years. ...

The name of the book is derived from the use of the term “Invisible College” to describe some of these secret societies, but Vallee doesn’t emphasize that most writers who’ve used it were occultists and have assumed that the Invisible College indoctrinated people using psychic powers and occult rituals. Instead, he postulates that the Invisible College employed methods similar to those used by modern behavioral psychologists, based entirely on operant conditioning by physical means.

The Invisible College also contains some interesting speculation about the purpose of the mental reprogramming received by UFO contactees. For example, the majority [come] away from their experience believing that a higher power had chosen them to play a special role in advancing human civilization. They seemed filled with hope, optimism, and creative energy, expressing the belief that contactees are going to help the “Space Brothers” lead the human race into a New Age in which Earth will take its place among the advanced civilizations of the universe.

The specific elements of ideology advocated by the contactees were completely familiar to me:

• world peace
  
  
• universal brotherhood
  
  
• social justice

They also talked about the general concept that the Sixties counterculture called “consciousness expansion,” especially forms of it achieved without using psychedelic drugs, but they usually expressed it in terms that wouldn’t directly identify them with the controversy over drugs and hippies. It was immediately obvious to me that this was just another form of the “Aquarian Age Message,” phrased in terms of space-traveling aliens and galactic civilizations instead of the terminology of the counterculture.

However, by 1979, when Vallee published Messengers of Deception, he apparently had changed his opinions on UFOs to something approaching those John Keel had expressed in The Eighth Tower. Vallee had become extremely disillusioned with the whole concept of mysterious conspiracies that meddled in earthly affairs and tried to change the course of history by reprogramming the minds of individuals. He was more convinced than ever that such conspiracies existed, but had gone from considering them beneficial to condemning them as evil. ...

Messengers of Deception contains a possible explanation for the whole UFO and contact-cult phenomenon that is very similar to Keel’s Superspectrum.

“I believe there is a system around us that transcends time as it transcends space. I remain confident that human knowledge is capable of understanding this larger reality. I suspect that some humans have already understood it, and are showing their hand in several aspects of the UFO encounters.”

Vallee isn’t certain who these people are, only that they don’t seem to be physical extraterrestrials or supermen. He speculates they might be government intelligence agents, especially of the CIA and KGB, or perhaps members of extra-governmental conspiracies like the hypothetical “Illuminati.” Whoever they may be, he doesn’t like them. ...​

Some additional ideas from the same source:

One of my starting points was to re-examine the work of Charles Fort, the founder of modern research into unexplained phenomena. Starting with Book of the Damned in 1918, he was the first to publish many of the simplest and most obvious explanations for a number of strange occurrences. For example, he proposed that the inhabitants of other worlds might be visiting the Earth in space ships long before the terms “flying saucer” and “UFO” were invented, and he also speculated that we might be receiving visitations from the future or from other dimensions.

Fort didn’t assume, as did most of the UFO researchers in the Fifties, that these visitations represented mere scientific exploration, but speculated that the visitors had selfish reasons for coming to Earth. He said that “certain esoteric ones” throughout history have received “messages from elsewhere,” and hinted that these have helped shape modern civilization.

However, Fort’s negative speculations were more numerous than his positive ones.

He is widely quoted as saying,

“I think we are property. Someone owns us,” and for his further speculations that these “proprietors” have always had willing collaborators on Earth, “a cult or order, members of which function as bellwethers to the rest of us...”

At his most morbid, he compares us not to “property,” but to “cattle.” – a dark hint that the mysterious outsiders might slaughter Earth people for food or “diabolical experiments.”

And...

In The Eighth Tower (1975), Keel concluded that UFO contact reports had a common origin with certain very intense religious and occult experiences, such as visitations from gods, angels, or demons. He postulated that the cause of all these events is a natural phenomenon, which he names the “Superspectrum.”

Keel’s Superspectrum seems to be based loosely on Jung’s concept that the human race possesses a “collective unconscious,” but he carries the idea much further than Jung did. Jung had conceived of the collective unconscious only as a body of information stored in the subconscious minds of many different individuals that causes all of them to think or behave in similar ways.

Keel carries this concept much further, and postulates that the Superspectrum involves specialized forms of matter and energy unknown to present-day science. He borrows concepts from occultism and coins scientific-sounding new terms to describe them. His Superspectrum simply seems to be another way of saying “influence by spiritual beings and psychic powers.”

However, he doesn’t conclude that the Superspectrum is a being or group of beings, as the occultists usually do with their concepts of gods, demons, and spirits. Instead, it is simply a kind of natural phenomenon with a “computer-like intelligence.”

 

[DissectionStalker]

Meanwhile you have dismissed countless, multiple witness accounts some of which are backed with radar and/or photographic evidence with a wave of your hand.

In essence, what you seem to be suggesting is that 1) some UAP are military, and 2) the rest are simply misidentified natural phenomenon.

The "wave of my hand" is really only what "the contamination" of military involvement can do to a UAP case. The military is known to use UFOs to cover-up their own top secret programs for various reasons. Even when Vallee is telling us this openly in specific cases naming names (Rendelsham, Nuke Missile Sites, etc.), it seems many ET-UFO believers simply deny this very real possibility that has a very high probability too! I also choose to believe that ET does not travel light years to Earth, and then somehow crashes their UFO near a military base or test range. That's just "silly thinking" that is not very logical or very likely, imo. That's far more likely to be a Military PSYOPS to cover-up their own top secret program. That's absolutely obvious to my way of thinking.

I want to narrow the UAP/UFO cases down to a minimum of conflicting explanations, so I must eliminate "the military" UAPs/UFOs whenever possible and, also, probable nighttime misidentification and Hoaxers leaving only the truly less controversial cases to explore. We also know that people do definitely see UAP/UFOs from the mind's eye thanks to DMT and Mushroom mind altering plant substances, and, often, two or more people do not see the same UAP/UFO object in the Sky either!

Real ET-UFO cases are hard to find once that process of elimination is undertaken. IF this was easy to do, then we would have no mystery to solve!

I personally believe it is highly likely ET's have visited Earth numerous times, IF that is possible to do with high probability of success from light years away. IF science is on the right track about there being, for example, 11 dimensions of "whatever that is", then I accept the idea ET-UFO phenomena may be able to "magically unfold" itself out of those other dimensions, we do not know how to access or control, and place itself into our 4 known dimensions. We have to be extremely cautious about this possibility, because Covert Military Programs have under R&D and testing some 3d and Holographic programs too!

Soupie: if you know of some great UAP/UFO cases that can screen past my Military and Hoaxer probabilities, then please do pass these on. You seem to suggest there are many available to consider. Please do share with us all.

Thanks.

 

[Soupie]

Soupie: if you know of some great UAP/UFO cases that can screen past my Military and Hoaxer probabilities, then please do pass these on. You seem to suggest there are many available to consider. Please do share with us all.

Amazon.com: UFOs: Generals, Pilots, and Government Officials Go on the Record (9780307717085): Leslie Kean: Books

701 The Movie

Additionally:

Chile Releases Official Study on UFO Photos | Leslie Kean

The government office investigating UFOs in Chile has released an analysis of two high quality photos showing what appear be genuine unidentified flying objects above a remote copper mine. The office, known as the CEFAA (Committee for the Studies of Anomalous Aerial Phenomena), is located within the Ministerial Department of Civil Aeronautics (DGAC), the equivalent of our FAA, under the jurisdiction of the Chilean Air Force. It is responsible for the analysis of selected reports of unexplained aerial phenomena in Chilean airspace, most of them from pilots and aviation personnel.

The photos were taken at the Collahuasi copper mine, more than 14,000 feet above sea level in the Andean plateau in the far north of Chile. An extremely remote location with low oxygen levels and unusually clear skies, the area is desolate and inhospitable. The Collahuasi mine produces copper concentrate, copper cathodes and molybdenum concentrate from three open-pit mineral deposits. (Click here for a map).

Four technicians - professionals specializing in electricity, electronics, and fluid control - were working there in April, 2013. They witnessed a disc-shaped object which approached slowly and was present for more than an hour, moving around in different positions and hovering at about 2000 feet. One technician took pictures with his Kenox Samsung S860 camera. The strange object made no sound, and eventually moved away towards the East.

The witnesses decided not to tell anybody because of the negative associations they had with UFO sightings, and therefore had every intention of always keeping the sighting private. But some months later, the photographer casually showed the pictures to the chief engineer at the mine, who asked for copies. The engineer sent the images to the CEFAA in February, and provided the agency with information reported to him by the witnesses. He too has requested anonymity.

Chile's meteorological office at the DGAC confirmed that there was an absolute clear sky at that time, and that there was no possibility of lenticular clouds. All other meteorological phenomena have been ruled out by Chilean officials as a possible explanation.

CEFAA officials told me they determined that there were no drones operating near the mine. "People in that zone know about drones," said Jose Lay, international affairs director for the CEFAA. "Fishing companies use drones and they make a lot of noise. This was definitely not a drone." DGAC officials also ruled out any experimental aircraft, planes, weather balloons, or anything else that could explain the incident.

With all conventional explanations eliminated, the CEFAA staff determined that the photos were worthy of analysis. The results of this study, conducted by a leading CEFAA analyst at the DGAC Meteorological Office, was released on July 3rd and is posted on the CEFAA website.

The report states that the witnesses described the phenomenon as "a flattened disc, of brilliant color, with a diameter of 5 to 10 meters [16 to 32 feet]. It performed ascending, descending and horizontal movements in short lengths, about 600 meters above the ground." The witnesses had the impression that the object was under intelligent control. ...

There are other cases of interest of course.

Also, note that the very resource you've shared - the pentacle document - reveals that the PTB were aware of UAP and had done extensive research of their own. And as the document revealed, felt it worthwhile to recommend the organization of a complex, expensive operation to gather more info about the phenomena.

 

[manxman]

Try RAF Bentwaters 1956 tell us about that psy-op.

 

[DissectionStalker]

“I believe there is a system around us that transcends time as it transcends space. I remain confident that human knowledge is capable of understanding this larger reality. I suspect that some humans have already understood it, and are showing their hand in several aspects of the UFO encounters.”

Vallee isn’t certain who these people are, only that they don’t seem to be physical extraterrestrials or supermen. He speculates they might be government intelligence agents, especially of the CIA and KGB, or perhaps members of extra-governmental conspiracies like the hypothetical “Illuminati.” Whoever they may be, he doesn’t like them. ...

Two things I find interesting about this. 1) Vallee wrote these ideas after his experience in Brazil and Operation Saucer. 2) And, secondly, he says to read his Fiction books "between the lines" to understand what he really thinks privately that he can't say publicly and openly direct.

His fiction book Stratagem is set in Brazil too! Hmmm.... I wonder why?

I have only read parts of this book so far, but it seems this book is easy to "read between the lines". No doubt, Vallee thinks the Brazilian military's fingerprints are all over Operation Saucer as part of a covert operation. Bulls-eye!

 

[Constance]

Stalker, I'm not sure what point you are so emphatically trying to make: Some UAP incidents, especially those relating to military installments, involve man-made "objects." Also, some people have profited from the ETH.

This is wonderful, but, yawn, it hardly comes close to explaining the UFO/UHI phenomenon. Meanwhile you have dismissed countless, multiple witness accounts some of which are backed with radar and/or photographic evidence with a wave of your hand.

In essence, what you seem to be suggesting is that 1) some UAP are military, and 2) the rest are simply misidentified natural phenomenon.

Is this your position? (And just so we're clear; that's certainly not Vallee's position.)

Excellent post, Soupie. Cuts right to the chase.

 

[Constance]

The "wave of my hand" is really only what "the contamination" of military involvement can do to a UAP case. The military is known to use UFOs to cover-up their own top secret programs for various reasons. Even when Vallee is telling us this openly in specific cases naming names (Rendelsham, Nuke Missile Sites, etc.), it seems many ET-UFO believers simply deny this very real possibility that has a very high probability too! I also choose to believe that ET does not travel light years to Earth, and then somehow crashes their UFO near a military base or test range. That's just "silly thinking" that is not very logical or very likely, imo. That's far more likely to be a Military PSYOPS to cover-up their own top secret program. That's absolutely obvious to my way of thinking.

So from 'possibility' to 'logical and likely' to 'absolutely obvious' in one paragraph, ignoring all that has to be demonstrated to support your conclusion.

I want to narrow the UAP/UFO cases down to a minimum of conflicting explanations, so I must eliminate "the military" UAPs/UFOs whenever possible and, also, probable nighttime misidentification and Hoaxers leaving only the truly less controversial cases to explore.

You can't get there by fiat, stalker, or by wishful thinking. You have to clear away at least the most 'controversial' cases first, and those labeled 'unexplained' even by the Condon Committee and in researched cases to be found in Blue Book No. 14, and by other sources still being discovered. To begin to 'clear away' those cases would take many years and immense research on your part, merely to begin countering the research already accomplished by career ufo researchers.

I personally believe it is highly likely ET's have visited Earth numerous times, IF that is possible to do with high probability of success from light years away. IF science is on the right track about there being, for example, 11 dimensions of "whatever that is", then I accept the idea ET-UFO phenomena may be able to "magically unfold" itself out of those other dimensions, we do not know how to access or control, and place itself into our 4 known dimensions. We have to be extremely cautious about this possibility, because Covert Military Programs have under R&D and testing some 3d and Holographic programs too!

The 11 dimensions of string theory are theoretical. So is the notion of a 'control system' created to manage humans on earth by 'higher' entities concerning which no trace of evidence has been found.

 

[Constance]

Two things I find interesting about this. 1) Vallee wrote these ideas after his experience in Brazil and Operation Saucer. 2) And, secondly, he says to read his Fiction books "between the lines" to understand what he really thinks privately that he can't say publicly and openly direct.

His fiction book Stratagem is set in Brazil too! Hmmmm.... I wonder why?
I have only read parts of this book so far, but it seems this book is easy to "read between the lines". No doubt, Vallee thinks the Brazilian military's fingerprints are all over Operation Saucer as part of a covert operation. Bulls-eye!

Speculations about speculations that must, moreover, be grasped by "reading between the lines" in works of fiction.

 

[DissectionStalker]

So from 'possibility' to 'logical and likely' to 'absolutely obvious' in one paragraph, ignoring all that has to be demonstrated to support your conclusion.

You can't get there by fiat, stalker, or by wishful thinking. You have to clear away at least the most 'controversial' cases first, and those labeled 'unexplained' even by the Condon Committee and in researched cases to be found in Blue Book No. 14, and by other sources still being discovered. To begin to 'clear away' those cases would take many years and immense research on your part, merely to begin countering the research already accomplished by career ufo researchers.

You missed my word 'probability' like assigning probabilities using the Drake equation; we have no choice but to use a sorting system to get to the best cases without "the pollution" of other confounding variables -military, etc. Use 'assigning probability' in place of my belief words and then you can understand what I'm getting at.

What is your "Drake equation" to find the best UFO cases?

Give us your top five. You certainly are very well read, so have you got a list of your top five UFO cases?

Also, did you listen to the Vallee youtube yet? See Post #122. Please check that post, because I gave you the time marks for both events. Comments?

 

[DissectionStalker]

Speculations about speculations that must, moreover, be grasped by "reading between the lines" in works of fiction.

Well, Vallee is a bit paranoid considering how he transfers the Pentacle memo to Hynek. Also, those Brazilian dictators and their henchmen don't play nice. Going missing and disappearing was a commonplace solution to perceived threats in those years. Maybe Vallee was being groomed as a useful asset, a hopeful patsy?

 

[DissectionStalker]

The 11 dimensions of string theory are theoretical. So is the notion of a 'control system' created to manage humans on earth by 'higher' entities concerning which no trace of evidence has been found.

The control system(s) could still be Human too, and we just don't understand how these devices and technology works at present. That's why I think Vallee does not eliminate possible Human control systems too.