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NOW the Apocalypse has begun in Greece...

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I'm not crusading or anything. I'm just looking at what the scientist are saying, that we're responsible for some of the climate change that we've seen. It isn't an impending apocalypse, but we need to make changes to our lifestyle. The ozone layer didn't get messed up on it's own - you can agree with that, right? And the greenhouse effect is real, no? So with us cutting down forests and burning more fuel, there's more CO2 in the atmosphere. I'm not saying anything outlandish here. I hope that you can agree with me on that. I just don't think saying that climate change is a scam is prudent.

OMG you are so far behind on this issue I don't know where to start. Dude... seriously, get some education on this issue.
Ozone layer? pure bunk.
The misnamed greenhouse effect? does not apply on a global scale. i see no glass roof up in the atmosphere.
Deforestation? not the problem you think it is and at the same time, also a problem you dont know about. (africans burning wood for fuel because of no electricity)
CO2? LOVE IT!!! We need much more of it right now. bring it on.

So... YES you are saying outlandish things.
 
Actually I do have plenty of resources available. BUT the burden of proof lies on you and the "consensus". If the science is "settled", it should be very easy for you to show this "science".
 
Actually I do have plenty of resources available.

Please, provide some.
Here's some I've looked at:

Frequently Asked Questions - AR4 WG1

WWF - Scientific proof: climate change is happening now

And watch a video:

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i will watch this later, i am doing some gardening for awhile.

without even watching i will remind you that climate change has been happening for some 4-5 billion years now. much of that time was much warmer than today and much of it colder than today. much of that time CO2 levels were far higher and some of the time the CO2 was a little bit lower. why then would you want to change it in a particular way now or much less even think you can?
 
i will watch this later, i am doing some gardening for awhile.

without even watching i will remind you that climate change has been happening for some 4-5 billion years now. much of that time was much warmer than today and much of it colder than today. much of that time CO2 levels were far higher and some of the time the CO2 was a little bit lower. why then would you want to change it in a particular way now or much less even think you can?

I see that there is really no point in discussing this with you. You refuse to look at the facts and you have yet to provide me with the information you have seen that leads you to your belief that humans are not responsible for the change in climate. I must say that I am not an alarmist about climate change, but I can look at the evidence and it shows that we have caused some of it.
If I am correct, you're saying that we have not caused any of it.
 
Climate change is real, of that there is no doubt. The climate has fluctuated from hot periods (as we are in now) to cold periods (such as the ice age and the so called "little ice age.")

I think those are facts that we all can agree upon.

Since industrialization began there seems to be a small upward trend in temperature, but just how much humans have actively and/or passively contributed to this phenomenon remains to be seen. The main problem I have with either side of this debate is that they use computer models. A computer model will be biased based upon what the researcher is looking for, just like data can be manipulated to appear to support one side or the other.

The truth is, we don't have any basis for comparison. None. We don't know what the climate was doing 6000 years ago. We didn't have weather stations set up then, as far as I know. We can guess as to what certain aspects of the weather were doing back then based upon rocks, tree rings and such. Unfortunately the weather in one part of the world doesn't always reflect the weather in another part of the world.

My own belief is that humans have exercised some effect upon the climate, but I don't know how much and in what way. Deforestation of South American and Indonesian forests come to mind as two very large human sourced problems-but to what extent? Are the clear cut areas simply holding onto the heat or is the lack of forestation causing less CO2 to be recycled as O2? Is the "hole" in the Ozone a cyclical phenomenon, commensurate with the history of temperature fluctuation?

I don't know the answers. Both sides of the debate have some decent points-but both sides of the debate are driven by industry; and that is the inherent problem.
 
I just want to add one aspect of this "debate" about GW/CC.

Solutions.

Let me say that even if I 100% agreed with the "science" behind this theory that man is causing the problems this would make me reconsider my position. So I don't even have to argue that point.

How anyone who considers themself a "skeptic" cannot look at the proposed solutions to this problem that was allegedly are causing and not have giant red flags and sirens going off is beyond me.

The soultions are already given to this problem. They are carbon taxation and cap-and-trade. Also the creation of a carbon futures market. I should not have to explain to people who are skeptical why this is a problem. Any soultion to a problem that involves financial gain in the trillions SHOULD make people reconsider what they are looking at. Sadly, when this is brought up to those who support the theory that man is causing it is either ignored or rationalized instead of maintaining a consistant skeptical mind.
 
I just want to add one aspect of this "debate" about GW/CC.

Solutions.

Let me say that even if I 100% agreed with the "science" behind this theory that man is causing the problems. So I don't even have to argue that point.

How anyone who considers themself a "skeptic" cannot look at the proposed solutions to this problem that was allegedly are causing and not have giant red flags and sirens going off is beyond me.

The soultions are already given to this problem. They are carbon taxation and cap-and-trade. Also the creation of a carbon futures market. I should not have to explain to people who are skeptical why this is a problem. Any soultion to a problem that involves financial gain in the trillions SHOULD make people reconsider what they are looking at. Sadly, when this is brought up to those who support the theory that man is causing it is either ignored or rationalized instead of maintaining a consistant skeptical mind.

I can honestly say I have no idea what you're talking about.
All I'm saying in this thread is that we can't deny that the science shows that there is a correlation between human beings and a rise in the Earth's overall temperature. That is all.
 
I can honestly say I have no idea what you're talking about.
All I'm saying in this thread is that we can't deny that the science shows that there is a correlation between human beings and a rise in the Earth's overall temperature. That is all.

But that correlation is unsubstantiated as to it's relevance-since we have no true baseline with which to compare. We have some evidence that says there might be a cause, but it's not enough for a jury to convict, at least in my mind.
 
There is the problem, Angel. You have no idea what I am talking about and seem to invest time into this topic. These are points that any person who looks into this topic needs to have a firm understanding of. The soultions and motivations on those pushing their theory/agenda is telling as to why it is being pushed IMO. Saving "Mother Gaia" should not be about trillions of dollars in taxation and the creation of a new finanical derivative market (carbon futures trading) that the largest investment banks will use to make trillions more like they have with other scams.
 
Okay - I'm confused. Some of you here seem to think that there's more than enough evidence to support alien visitations, ghosts, and some sort of 9/11 conspiracy, but there isn't enough data that shows humans are at least partly responsible for warming up the planet.
What am I missing? Am I in some sort of bizarro-science parallel dimension?

---------- Post added at 02:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:14 PM ----------

There is the problem, Angel. You have no idea what I am talking about and seem to invest time into this topic. These are points that any person who looks into this topic needs to have a firm understanding of. The soultions and motivations on those pushing their theory/agenda is telling as to why it is being pushed IMO. Saving "Mother Gaia" should not be about trillions of dollars in taxation and the creation of a new finanical derivative market (carbon futures trading) that the largest investment banks will use to make trillions more like they have with other scams.

I'm investing time in this because I can't understand why you disagree with me that there is enough evidence to prove that we are warming up the planet. I'm not talking about solutions - I'm talking about the fact that we are affecting our environment. That's it.
 
Okay - I'm confused. Some of you here seem to think that there's more than enough evidence to support alien visitations, ghosts, and some sort of 9/11 conspiracy, but there isn't enough data that shows humans are at least partly responsible for warming up the planet.
What am I missing? Am I in some sort of bizarro-science parallel dimension?

Not sure if you were referring to my post but I'll act under the assumption that you were. I have stated my belief which is based more upon what I know about today's climate. But without baseline data of the same type I do not there are enough facts to assume if there is any real correlation or to what extent humanity impacts the climate.
 
Not sure if you were referring to my post but I'll act under the assumption that you were. I have stated my belief which is based more upon what I know about today's climate. But without baseline data of the same type I do not there are enough facts to assume if there is any real correlation or to what extent humanity impacts the climate.

But there's enough evidence for you to think that we are being visited by aliens and ghosts?
 
But there's enough evidence for you to think that we are being visited by aliens and ghosts?

Show me in ANY post that I've made where I've said that we're being visited by aliens and ghosts.

However you are overlooking the above posts in which I stated MY belief as far as Global Warming is concerned.
 
Show me in ANY post that I've made where I've said that we're being visited by aliens and ghosts.

However you are overlooking the above posts in which I stated MY belief as far as Global Warming is concerned.

No, I read what you posted. You made it sound that this is more of a natural upward trend than a human caused problem, although I could have read it wrong. Also, I was asking a question. I wonder how some people can be skeptical of some things and buy into other things. I wasn't really aiming it at you. Sorry if you felt it was pointed at you.
Let make my stance on this very clear: There is scientific evidence that shows that we have created a problem with our climate. I do believe that actions such as recycling, being less wasteful, and using less fossil fuel (i.e more fuel efficient cars, public transportation, alternative energy sources, etc) could be possible solutions to the problem. Pet peeves: when people say things like the hole in the ozone layer is bunk, and that the Sun is getting hotter, and that there's no evidence that shows we're having any effect on the planet. That annoys me.

If I should change my view, and with valid proof (not Alex Jones), it can be changed, please help me do so. However, saying it without pointing me to a source isn't helpful.
 
Climate change is real, of that there is no doubt. The climate has fluctuated from hot periods (as we are in now) to cold periods (such as the ice age and the so called "little ice age.")

I think those are facts that we all can agree upon.

Since industrialization began there seems to be a small upward trend in temperature, but just how much humans have actively and/or passively contributed to this phenomenon remains to be seen. The main problem I have with either side of this debate is that they use computer models. A computer model will be biased based upon what the researcher is looking for, just like data can be manipulated to appear to support one side or the other.

The truth is, we don't have any basis for comparison. None. We don't know what the climate was doing 6000 years ago. We didn't have weather stations set up then, as far as I know. We can guess as to what certain aspects of the weather were doing back then based upon rocks, tree rings and such. Unfortunately the weather in one part of the world doesn't always reflect the weather in another part of the world.

My own belief is that humans have exercised some effect upon the climate, but I don't know how much and in what way. Deforestation of South American and Indonesian forests come to mind as two very large human sourced problems-but to what extent? Are the clear cut areas simply holding onto the heat or is the lack of forestation causing less CO2 to be recycled as O2? Is the "hole" in the Ozone a cyclical phenomenon, commensurate with the history of temperature fluctuation?

I don't know the answers. Both sides of the debate have some decent points-but both sides of the debate are driven by industry; and that is the inherent problem.

i am still trying to do garden stuff but had to let you know how wrong you are. thinking that the globe is warming by looking back 150 years is absurd at best. AGW is not as you admit a "belief" system.
Your concerns for CO2 are unnecessary and unfounded.
The hole in the ozone is as normal as the crack in my ass.
back later, more tomatoes to plant.

---------- Post added at 07:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:44 PM ----------

Although I don't think that carbon credits are any sort of valid solution, what is wrong with looking for alternative energy sources and promoting recycling. You're really not helping change my mind. Can you show me a recent scientific study that contradicts what I'm saying.

can you find one that supports what you are saying? one that has not been thoroughly debunked?
 
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