Paracast bounces back with Marcel Jnr & listener Mike! - Sun 16th, Nov. 2008

[Brian Now]

We know that some Presidents like Clinton wanted to find out about UFOs but were stalled. In fact, one poster here has a signature line to that effect with a Clinton quote. What if the scenario is more like this:

That would be Gareth's signature line. I was curious too and I ran that through Google and it just pulled up maybe 3 sites, including the Paracast forums, all having to do with UFO's. One site, hillaryclintonufo.net (cute name huh?), has a quote from Bill pretty much dismissing Roswell entirely....just goes to show you can't believe everything you read on the internet, especially presidential quotes

Bill Clinton answering the question “When will we ever know the truth about UFOs? February 6, 2008
"It's interesting that you said that because when we celebrated the anniversary of that event out in New Mexico, I actually got all the government documents and read them and I'm convinced there wasn't a UFO there."

Who knows if that quote is true either.

 

[dad2059]

Good show with a couple of lucid interviewees, nice to listen to folk who don't talk like they've just downed a hand-full of bennies with espresso chasers.

I doubt Marcel Jr's memory being that good, I have to disagree with David's assessment there, but Marcel's unforced sincerity is refreshing.

Plus being Friedman's pal doesn't hurt either in the credibility department, although the nuts and bolts theory has taken a beating lately.

Mike's interview reminds me of what I saw when I was 8 years old in the summer of 1967 after I saw a craft resembling a Gemini spacecraft that didn't leave any rocket exhaust or contrail, just a humming sound.

But I'm not really sure what I saw after 41 years, and I know my memory isn't very good, especially being currently treated for epilepsy.

Can we all be sure childhood memories are reliable sources?

Sadly, I have to say no.

 

[Schuyler]

Who knows if that quote is true either.

Whether or not either of those quotes is true, we still know Clinton, for one, was interested in UFOs from other sources. (So was Ford; so was Nixon. Maybe there were others.) The point was an attempt to grapple with Marcel's interview as he described it and what may have been going on. My suggestion is that this interview wasn't particularly sinister and probably reflects a bureaucrat trying to puzzle through the issue just like we are. He did not exhibit any advanced knowledge, really, other than reading some fiction. Taking this strictly at face value as described, you can't go much further.

Even if you speculate, you can't get much further. My speculation is that he is not NSA and that his investigation has resulted in many closed doors in his face with perhaps some tantalizing hints from those who enjoy stringing people along, the disinfo folks throwing him a few dog bones. He's made up his own mind, bolstered by Strieber's fiction and his own reading, but he doesn't really know. The 'secure room' trick doesn't say much except that he has access to a room he says is secure. This could be his ego getting a little ahead of itself. Of course, this second paragraph is pure speculation. I don't really know.

 

[marduk]

Agreed, great show guys. It's hard to not hear Jesse Marcel Jr speak and not feel he's credible. If the guy says he handled a bunch of rubble that looked like it wasn't ours then so be it -- I for one believe that he did.

It doesn't excuse or give any credibility to any of the jokers that came along after Friedman did his thing and resurrected the Roswell incident. Lots of smoke and mirrors here.

The NSA guy: he could've just been some interested guy who happened to work for some agency and in his final years was looking for some answers. Doesn't mean a thing and is certainly not "official confirmation". Military guys are just like anybody else; they have their interests and hobbies too.

Love to hear interviews with listeners too. Great job guys.

 

[CapnG]

I just want to mention something regarding these two points:

1. If the debris is from a flying saucer, it is curious that it looks like and is described as having much in common with foil paper and wooden sticks.

The repeated and continuous confabulation regarding the comments from the original witnesses is infuriating. The original testimonies report a material like cigartette foil and a material that was as light as balsa wood. They DO NOT state that it WAS cigarette foil and balsa wood. Similarity is not good enough (plexiglass is not glass, for example). In 1947 plastics were still relatively new, so the concept of even more advanced materials would not have existed in the public mind. They had a limited lexicon upon which to draw to make comparisons.

2. Good evidence of the source of the markings on the wooden components has been uncovered--dismissing this and relying on an 11 year old boy's memory is unwise. Let me mention that the 2nd guest on the show mentioned his 11 year old friend totally forgetting a remarkable sighting.

A) You're starting with the assumption that the wooden beam/flower tape explanation is the truth. And

B) Not all 11 year olds are created equal. Not all 30+ year olds are. Some people have better memories than others and Jesse has not changed his story in any appreciable way in any of his recountings of it even after all these years.

However, all of this to me is moot. For me the bottom line is this: no one, not a farmer, not an 11 year old boy and certainly not an active duty air force officer would EVER mistake a balloon, balsa wood and tin foil as anything other than precisely that, even in 1947. The very notion that such a mistake could be made is absurd on it's face. If Roswell really was just a Mogul balloon, it's the most convoluted, over-blown, over-done, over-the-top cover story in the history of cover ups and frankly I don't think the government/military are that creative.

 

[Chuckleberryfinn]

A lot of great work has been done by skeptics and believers alike on Roswell and the evidence is very compelling that the Project Mogul balloon array is responsible for the entire thing

Yes, it is incredibly sensible. The military cordoned off Foster Ranch, refusing to let anyone enter, because of debree from a Mogul Balloon, a highly sophisticated assemblage of tinfoil and sticks and tape with pretty flowers and things. Undoubtedly the dozens and dozens of soldiers who encircled the field, elbow to elbow, wanted to find every itty-bitty piece of that stuff, lest a Red come snooping into the area where he would find a field of garbage.

Also, I agree with the Air Force: most certainly, the 6 ft. test dummies fell into a temporal anomaly and arrived in the past, where locals misidentified them as smallish non human corpses

 

[Ally]

Great show. The NSA part was a little weird. I would have questioned his motives. It still blows me away that he didn't talk about the incident because he was told not to at age 11. What about telling your best best friend and making him/her cross their heart and sware not to tell anyone secrets at that age??

I am one of those people that take my dreams and sleeping life seriously. I wouldn't say it is more important than waking life but it can at times be as important.

Mike you had many good points. Some of this phenomena seems, as you have meantioned before staged somehow. Who are the directors actors and audience I wonder? We need a new script! REALLY

 

[macavity]

The repeated and continuous confabulation regarding the comments from the original witnesses is infuriating. The original testimonies report a material like cigartette foil and a material that was as light as balsa wood. They DO NOT state that it WAS cigarette foil and balsa wood. Similarity is not good enough (plexiglass is not glass, for example). In 1947 plastics were still relatively new, so the concept of even more advanced materials would not have existed in the public mind. They had a limited lexicon upon which to draw to make comparisons.

I do take your point but I struggle with the fact that debris from a crashed UFO just happens to consist mainly of foil-like material and balsa wood-type material in an area where it's reasonable to believe that an earthly device consisting mainly of foil and balsa wood may have crashed...

 

[Gareth]

Gimme a break lance.

This ends the story unless you are stupid? WE WILL NEVER KNOW. You can choose lean more on certain elements of this whole fiasco more than others, but the fact is there are too many conflicting reports going either way.

 

[Chuckleberryfinn]

And yet, as I mentioned, Marcel himself during his later interviews (while ostensibly promoting the case) blows your assertion to bits by identifying the material in the photos as the same miraculous space stuff he recovered.

THIS ENDS THE STORY UNLESS YOU ARE STUPID.

Even the most idiotic Roswell believer can see that the material in the photos is just what the Air Force said it was (more or less--they were hiding the fact this was not really a weather balloon but part of Mogul).

In other words, foil paper and balsa sticks.

I have read a number of Roswell books and have never come across the assertion that Marcel said the debree in the photos was the actual debree. I have, on the other hand, heard it said by Friedman that both Dubose and Marcel said otherwise. I would like to see a complete source for this information, sir. Not just a fragment of a quote, but the entire paragraph and the sourcebook or article.

 

[Rocketsauce]

My favorite part of the show was Marcel's NSA story, very interesting and I think David did a good job of his questioning on this. The fact it took place in the actual 'Capitol' building is intriguing. As far as I know, not just anyone can hold meetings and hang out there, so it was definitely someone who had access to the building, so likely a government person.

The fact he offers Marcel protection makes me think it was a faction within an agency that was trying to get answers. Corso paints a picture where outside of a super secret core group, the other military and agency factions each have tiny pieces of the whole puzzle that they keep to themselves while trying to get more info. So perhaps this guy was an NSA guy trying to get more info for the NSA. In other words, he knows the stuff is real and is unable to get anymore info from other agencies who hold their cards close, so was part of a small internal initiative to get more info.

To have a meeting in the 'Capitol' building, isn't exactly a 'back alley' or top secret underground base that no one has heard of.

The fact that Marcel mixes up the NSA with National Security Council, is only a believer in the ETH, and believe Iraq was justified is interesting to me as well. Although it was brief, seems like he was able to justify the war based on Sadam being an evil dictator which has nothing to do with WMD manipulation or 911. But then again, if you had to spend a whole year of your life in Iraq it would be hard to get by without finding a way to justify it for yourself. His talk about Iraq and the ETH paints a picture of someone who takes things at face value IMO.

 

[Schuyler]

And yet, as I mentioned, Marcel himself during his later interviews (while ostensibly promoting the case) blows your assertion to bits by identifying the material in the photos as the same miraculous space stuff he recovered.

Where, exactly, does he say this? Please cite your source and provide a link, if possible. thanks.

 

[subject x]

Yup, pretty good show.

Marcel had some interesting responses to some well put questions, I thought. Although Roswell is so muddied up that the "truth" will obviously never be known, it's always interesting to hear from someone who was actually connected to the incident, however slightly. It must be an odd position to be in, as "the guy who saw the Roswell debris ", regardless of what your opinions on the subject were.

Mike had some interesting stuff to share, too. It was cool to hear him discussing the "orange flash/time loss" experience that I've been reading about in his thread.

Keep it up, guys!

 

[Bixyboo]

Wonder if perhaps Marcel's dad ever mentioned more than one Craft and any bodies at Roswell?

 

[Ally]

I just emailed a person I met at the Boeing fair this September that knows a woman who claims to have seen the bodies...I think. He seems like a legit guy and I asked him to contact the show. The woman is still alive but old according to him.

 

[Dolphtesla]

I find it interesting that creative types seem to have experiences. Jeff Ritzman is a graphic designer, Mike works in media, David works with images and special effects.
I personally am a graphic designer and a paranormal enthusiast.
Maybe creative types spend more time reaching into the zone of creative flow (bear with me) and paranormal exists in this realm as well.

Just a theory. What do you all think?

OMG on another note, I had a ufo dream and got the same crushing/reality altering feeling that Mike spoke of! I know this is just a dream. I had it about 5-8 yrs ago give or take, but I distinctly remember it being a small silvery ufo and it causing my perception or reality to shift giving me a pressure-like feeling on my head. I know this is just a dream, but interesting coincidence I think!

Great show gentlemen! Just great!

 

[Schuyler]

The quote is from the very obscure Berlitz/Moore book (pg.68 The Roswell Incident. In other words the MAIN book that started the whole myth (perhaps you overlooked that one in your otherwise excellent research?).

So now I have looked up and sourced the reference--let me predict your response....lol.

I expect anyone who makes a claim to cite their sources without being asked. I have this 'obscure book' myself, which is still readily available and hardly 'obscure.' On what basis do you say it is 'very obscure,' by the way? You can buy it by typing in the title and clicking two or three times. I also remember it as being fairly popular when it was published. That doesn't fit the definition of 'very obscure.'

When you look through this chapter it is very obvious that you have cherry picked your quote out of context to serve your advantage--but not tell the whole story. This is a typical and lightweight trick; perhaps you thought no one would check. The interview from which you have lifted your quote is several pages long. It's much too long to quote in its entirety here, but just some samples:

"Can you describe the materials that you found on the site?

There was all kinds of stuff--small beams about three eighths or a half inch square with some sort of hieroglyphics on them that nobody could decipher. These looked something like balsa wood, and were about the same weight, except that they were not wood at all. They were very hard, although flexible, and would not burn. There was a great deal of an unusual parchment-like substance which was brown in color and extremely strong, and a great number of small pieces of a metal like tinfoil, except that it wasn't tinfoil." (p.61)

On the next page he talks about the metal:

"This particular piece of metal was about two feet long and maybe a foot wide. It was so light it weighed practically nothing...it was so thin. So I tried to bend the stuff. We did all we could to bend it. It would not bend and you could not tear it or cut it either. We even tried making a dent in it with a sixteen-pound sledgehammer, and there was still no dent in it...It's still a mystery to me what the whole thing was. Now by bend, I mean crease. It was possible to flex this stuff back and forth, even to wrinkle it. but you could not put a crease in it that would stay, nor could you dent it at all. I would almost have to describe it as a metal with plastic properties."

There is a lot more material on several pages where Marcel insists it could not have been a weather balloon or tracking device of any kind, where he says he is sure whatever it was 'was not made by us," etc.

Now, Charles Berlitz is hardly a renowned researcher. He wrote The Bermuda Triangle, for example, an eye-roller if there ever was one. William Moore has publicly admitted participating in disinformation campaigns, particularly in destroying Paul Bennewitz and getting him committed to a mental hospital. Neither one of these guys are particularly reputable sources, so to hang your hat with these guys is not doing you any credit. 'The Roswell Incident' is not so much the 'MAIN' book on this case as it is the first.

I don't find your arguments credible. You've done extremely shoddy research in an attempt to push your point. You are taking quotes out of context, which I consider simply dishonest (and which in any case don't prove your point.) You are also resorting to calling people 'stupid' if they don't agree with your interpretation. What is the point of these patently illogical ad hominem attacks? If you are trying to make yourself appear superior, you just failed. They surely do not bolster your case. Your reputation is in your posts, Lance, and you're not doing yourself any favors by posting in the manner you have been. Simply stated, your argument is faulty. Given what I have found here, I would suggest that any of Lance's subsequent posts be thoroughly scrutinized for attempts at manipulation, dissembling, and dishonesty.

I would be willing to fax the interview pages in question here to anyone who would like them so you can see how Lance has cherry-picked his quotes here. I'm fine with people making their case and citing their evidence in a calm and rational manner that is subject to verification, but to attempt to make your point by being dishonest and insulting to others is contemptible and needs to be exposed for what it is.

 

[Schuyler]

I stand by my post. Sorry, buddy. You're busted. You've been caught. The evidence is clear. As far as I'm concerned, you don't exist. If there is an ignore function, you're on it. You're out here shouting and calling names, and everyone can see what you're doing. Everyone can view this thread and decide for themselves. If I were moderator I'd ban you for cheating. I'm not, so no problem!

Once again, I will fax the relevant pages to anyone who would like so that you can decide for yourselves whether Lance cherry-picked his quotes out of context. He thought no one could check his 'very obscure book.' Well, he thought wrong. You can be the judge. Just give me your fax number.

Shame on you, Lance. Last post.

 

[Gareth]

Hopefully almost anyone reading the above will realize that I was being facetious calling The Roswell Incident obscure--for the truly slow my next sentence should have driven that point home.

Ahhh, it really didnt come across that way. Chalk it up to the sterile environment of the text-based message board.

 

[David Biedny]