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Question for Dave or Anyone Who Feels The Same....

Free episodes:

just by the numbers , i have a problem with the "soul" theory, which includes post (unaided)bioform existance, and reincarnation.

to sample the human population curve, weve gone from 3 plus billion to 6 plus billion, and by 2050 will be 9 plus billion.....

so where are all the new souls coming from ?
 
so where are all the new souls coming from ?

Is there a quota we don't know about? It's an interesting question, but I'm not sure it compels a negative answer. It seems to me to be an artificially imposed limit. Is there any compelling evidence that would suggest the number of souls is governed by the number currently incarnated? What does one planet have to do with the number of souls, particularly in a universe as big as it is? Just to throw out a few possibilities: 1) There could be a lot of newbies on the rock. 2) They could be coming from somewhere else. 3) We could all be coming back at once. 4) A combination of all three since #3 wouldn't cut it by itself. 5) Souls, once dead, become oversouls and send aspects of themselves back (The Jane Roberts/Seth theory) thus exponentially increasing the number very quickly. 6) Souls around the galaxy/universe are required to do a stint here just to remind themselves how bad life can suck.

These may all be wrong. Beats me. But I don't think the question nullifies the possibility.
 
Just to throw out a few possibilities: 1) There could be a lot of newbies on the rock. 2) They could be coming from somewhere else. 3) We could all be coming back at once. 4) A combination of all three since #3 wouldn't cut it by itself. 5) Souls, once dead, become oversouls and send aspects of themselves back (The Jane Roberts/Seth theory) thus exponentially increasing the number very quickly. 6) Souls around the galaxy/universe are required to do a stint here just to remind themselves how bad life can suck.

Since we're making a list, here's another possibility that I'm fond of:

7) Souls are manufactured by the human machine through its life experience. The soul does not exist prior to birth, but can (potentially) be forged by the human machine and exist beyond death.
 
I like that, Brandon, a simple solution to the issue.

But I have to revise my comment on #3 where I said, "we're all coming back at once" and that this could not account for everyone. Turns out it can. According to this link: http://www.prb.org/Articles/2002/HowManyPeopleHaveEverLivedonEarth.aspx there have been over 100 billion humans born. As there are only 6 billion now, that leaves plenty of room for a sufficient number of souls to account for the present population without resorting to the other possibilities.
 
Since we're making a list, here's another possibility that I'm fond of:

7) Souls are manufactured by the human machine through its life experience. The soul does not exist prior to birth, but can (potentially) be forged by the human machine and exist beyond death.

If souls even exist, this is where I'd put my money on the "origin" question.
 
there have been over 100 billion humans born. As there are only 6 billion now, that leaves plenty of room for a sufficient number of souls to account for the present population .

so what happened to the other 96 billion.......

perhaps they reincarnated on other planets but that would require a body that did not have a soul to begin with.......

now thats interesting because there has been the suggestion in the genre that the greys dont have souls, and ive heard the quote "we recycle souls" ascribed to them.

i wonder...... what if at some stage in the future we learn how to time travel, and create bio-vessels(greys) with no souls, and use this to embark on the grandest reclaimation scheme in human history.

going back through time to save all those souls lost, prior to the technology being invented.

what if when you die.......you wake up a grey..........
 
so what happened to the other 96 billion.......

Umm, they left the building. Or, if Aristotle is right, they are waiting in the "Pool of Souls" for their turn to come back!

what if when you die.......you wake up a grey..........

Oh, yuck! Please stop! My fondest most fervent wish is that Strieber really is crazy.
 
would you do it ?
if in the future you had the ability to "copy" conciousness from one bio vessel to another at death , and that was standard practise for that times population.
and then someone invents time travel, and it becomes possible to go back, and copy some of historys great minds to a new body, thus "saving" their soul....

would you do it, and would you want your soul saved from oblivion ?.
 
what if when you die.......you wake up a grey..........

Funny you should mention the greys. There's something I've thought about for years and it ties into the whole "we make our souls as we go" idea. See if you can follow me on this:The first time I ever saw "The Alien Interview" I paid special attention to one part where the supposed transcript of the Alien's interrogation mentioned bodies as "containers". Now granted, in years since then I've come to dismiss almost everything in that "interview" as flim-flam. I mean, if John Lear endorses something that's pretty much the kiss of death for credibility. But on my own I couldn't help but consider things in terms which grew increasingly dark in their implication.

Consider that many UFOLogists are of the opinion that the aliens (whatever they are) regard earth as a "farm" and we humans as livestock. But what if it's more like cornfield and less like a sheep ranch? What if our bodies are literally husks and that it is our souls which are the "product"? In the alien interview transcript, there seemed to be an implication that souls had power. What if that was meant literally? Not to go all Matrix-y (although in my defence, I've been playing with this idea since before the Matrix came out) but what if we're just batteries, our souls are the energy and earth is just a big "soul recharger"?

It would mean our lives are meaningless, that conciousness was merely a necessary function for soul retention. All religions false, all notions of God delusional, hope illusiary, dreams- lies. Yet death would afford no escape, merely dissolution as our soul's energy was expended in whatever machine it powers.

Bleak, huh?
 
i wonder, if it were the reality, if at some stage we do develop the ability to copy conciousness from the original "container" to a new one, and we also had the ability to travel in time and offer this "service" to all the people who died prior to the technology......

would there be a criteria for recycling ?..... would everyone be recycled, or would only the "good" be saved.

or perhaps the criteria is similar to current models, ie grandparents die and are recycled into new cloned containers, they watch over their children, and recycle them when the time comes, who in turn see to it their children are recycled when they die.....

i suppose to be fair you could recycle everyone and then let them choose between using a new cloned container, or oblivion....
 
That assumes the soul is concious. Conciousness as we understand it may reside solely with the body and is thus destroyed along with the physical frame by death.
 
That assumes the soul is concious. Conciousness as we understand it may reside solely with the body and is thus destroyed along with the physical frame by death.



I'm still trying to find a book on consciousness which claims we understand it.

There is the view that a bunch of unconscious matter put together some how creates consciousness. This is usually from biologists, who study the body mostly. Their conclusions seem magical. Like adding a trillion 0s together that get you the number one. Yes, consciousness residing without a body seems magical too. But one isn't better than the other in my view.

The body remains at death. The atoms move on. It is my guess at the point of death, the body becomes no longer capable of modulating (as oppose to generating consciousness as thought in mainstream medicine) consciousness of something that is non local.
 
That assumes the soul is concious. Conciousness as we understand it may reside solely with the body and is thus destroyed along with the physical frame by death.

Of course, and therein lie the two distinct possibilities. The above possibility is the scientific rationalistic theory that there is nothing but physical matter, and that consciousness is an artifact of that, period. End of story. There is no Heaven, no Hell, no God, no afterlife and if you think so you are stupid. Prove differently.

The second possibility is the subjective, anecdotal, often religious idea that there IS such a thing as a 'soul' separate from the physical body that separates permanently at death, there IS an afterlife of some sort, and that this is indirectly proven by a large body of subjective evidence not accepted by the scientfic community, but nevertheless true.

The problem with the first point of view is that it stifles inquiry. We may as well roll up the carpet and go home. The problem with the second point of view is that it invites abject imagination to overwhelm rational discourse. If anything goes, everything does, no matter how silly or unsupported. That's why the first group believes as it does. They are tired of the crazy religious interpretation of reality and the only way to stop it is to reject all of it.

In that, they have thrown the baby out with the bathwater. Since this IS the Paracast, I would suggest most people here are at least willing to consider and discuss the second possibility. After all, this is not a committee granting tenure to Assistant Professors who have published a sufficient number of politically correct and acceptable articles in their fields to justify keeping their jobs.

What I hope is the prevailing mindset here is that our wild flights of fancy are held to a higher standard of proof and that folks who have interesting and speculative ideas at least be prodded to back up their claims with as much proof as they can muster.
 
"True mind uploading remains speculative. The technology to perform such a feat is not currently available, however a number of possible mechanisms, and research approaches, have been proposed for developing mind uploading technology."

by soul, i meant our conciousness, our experience and knowledge matrix, and it looks like we humans are working on this.

add time travel to that mix, and it could be an explaination that fits all the "hints"

perhaps the nordics are naturally born humans from that era, and the greys, "containers" for conciousness, conciousness thats then recycled into these containers at the death of the original natural vessel.

it also makes sense that these "containers" are cloned and tweaked to need the smallest energy/food input, and be unable to reproduce.

maybe the motive is altruistic, ie we are going to take this technology "downtime" to save people.
or maybe they are just harvesting an otherwise wasted resource to animate their biobots (greys).
the more i think about, the more bits click into place

prob unrelated: but yesterday i had lots of trouble posting these ideas, my internet connection kept failing, in a nontypical manner, and moments after finally getting it done, i became very ill.

im fine now, but i had to lie down yesterday as my fingers, toes nose lips and chin suddenly went numb, followed by fever like symptoms
 
it also makes sense that these "containers" are cloned and tweaked to need the smallest energy/food input, and be unable to reproduce.

Reproduction would be irrelevant to "immortal" beings. On the other hand, if there were some catastrophe at the "factory" and new containers were no longer available it would suddenly become a priority. Failing to reactivate ones own reproductive systems, perhaps one would turn to hybridization as a stop-gap?

And around and around we go...
 
This is getting beyond me here. It's going off in so many different directions. We probably ought to start a new thread since we are way off topic from the original. If I am readong all this right Mike has a theory that encompasses a technological way to 'harvest' or 'transfer' souls from one body to another which involves the future, time travel, greys, Nordics, reproduction, etc.

Why not let's start over and put together a summary of this theory and add some references so we know where all this stuff is coming from? I'm not being intentionally critical of the direction of the subject, but the issues are so tenuous that I'm having trouble grasping the ideas here. It feels like I'm in the middle of a Whitley Strieber paranoid fantasyland. Why not put down one building block at a time and establish a foundation for moving forward? Just a suggestion.
 
This is getting beyond me here. It's going off in so many different directions. We probably ought to start a new thread since we are way off topic from the original. If I am readong all this right Mike has a theory that encompasses a technological way to 'harvest' or 'transfer' souls from one body to another which involves the future, time travel, greys, Nordics, reproduction, etc.

Why not let's start over and put together a summary of this theory and add some references so we know where all this stuff is coming from? I'm not being intentionally critical of the direction of the subject, but the issues are so tenuous that I'm having trouble grasping the ideas here. It feels like I'm in the middle of a Whitley Strieber paranoid fantasyland. Why not put down one building block at a time and establish a foundation for moving forward? Just a suggestion.

Ok we should deal with the strieber refs first.
i have and have read communion ,transformation, confirmation, the secret school ,majestic, hidden agendas/alien implants, and forbiden zone.
ive seen the movie communion, and have read his journals for about the last two years.


as far as i know the concept the greys are infact the dead (for want of a better word) is one that just came to me in the last few days. i would be glad of any reference to manuscripts ive missed that suggest this is something that has also occured to Mr Strieber.

to futher expand on my latest theory, and its just that.
a hypothetical.
perhaps the order of events is significant.

let me suggest that 500 years from now, we can indeed "backup" our concious hard disks to both machines, and cloned bodies, that at death in the nursing homes we are given the option of doing so.

population and resources are already a pressing issue, so the new containers, need to be fuel efficient and sterile, otherwise with death shortcircuited this way the population and resource load would be at peak (no one "dies")

then "True Travel" is invented, this form of travel takes the population to a new dimension, they can now be anywhere....anywhen.......

they now live outside linear time ... in a new place.


now i must digress for a moment, today i had the cause to use the following quote in another forum today.

John Donne
Meditation 17
Devotions upon Emergent Occasions

"No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. If a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as well as if a manor of thy friend's or of thine own were. Any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind; and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee..."


it seems to me that if humans ever get the technology described, the abilitys described, they would use them.

it seems a typically human thing to do

once we have true travel, which takes us to a new dimension outside of linear time, we can be anywhere anywhen, our space and resources become almost limitless... we have the luxury of going "downtime" and saving the otherwise wasted souls/conciousness matrix's lost.

imagine you had the power and resources to do it, would you ?

if you had the power to go downtime and transfer the conciousness of a lost loved one to a new vessel, so you could resume your relationship, would you ?
 
if you had the power to go downtime and transfer the conciousness of a lost loved one to a new vessel, so you could resume your relationship, would you ?

Yes. And if I and my loved one both inhabited a virtual reality, I might indeed have this power.
 
The strangest thing about aliens to me is the fact that they don't seem to have any fun or love... they don't laugh, smile, tell jokes, make fun.. no sense of humor at all.. they also don't show love in any way, all they do is experiment... seems like a boring and unintersting life to me. If given the choise i'd rather be a simple homosapien then an advanced alien being. It crossed my mind it might be a feeling of shame from them towards us... we got someting they don't have.. love, humor, hate, anger, wonder, and creative imagination, total destruction etc. and that's why they 'hide' or keep away from us, they should know the social devide between our species so they are better able to judge if we could work together or not... it seems to me they chose the last option.
 
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