Question for Dave or Anyone Who Feels The Same....

[Schuyler]

mike, it seems to me that a lot of your ideas are coming from Strieber. You have, of course, added a lot of original material that is quite interesting. In fact, I still think you should write it up in a cohesive fashion and publish it. But the basics can be found in Strieber's work, particularly his later stuff: the idea of bodies as containers, that the ET-guys manipulate souls--that sort of thing.

I personally have trouble believing Strieber is anything but a good fiction writer. I was with him in his first two books, but he's gone out on a very inventive limb, in my opinion. I don't give him much credence. And, you, mike, have expressed the same sentiment. In a previous thread you said you 'wouldn't buy a used car' from anyone who had body language like Strieber. Sounds to me like you bought the car anyway. 8)

 

[valiens]

if you had the power to go downtime and transfer the conciousness of a lost loved one to a new vessel, so you could resume your relationship, would you ?

It is true Strieber has covered most of what you're saying as well as Kenneth Ring, and I believe, Ray Fowler.

To the above quote, YUCK! NO! I would never be so selfish. That seems evil. I might put He Who Shall Not be Named inside a one-armed Frankenstein though. Although that might be his heaven, who knows?

Can you imagine, if there's an afterlife, being vacuumed back into a new body because your a-hole friend/family member misses you?

 

[mike]

well i do have Mr Fowlers Watchers, so perhaps you are right, and im just echoing someone elses ideas.
but i must say it doesnt seem that way to me, it feels like a new , purely internal conclusion and a recent one.

"expressions" of love amd humour are just that, expressions , the manner in which we convey these sentiments now is very visual, the way we comunicate right now, life is a pantomime and we are all actors.

but if brain computer interfaces, BCI's become a reality, then the pantomime of expression is no longer needed, data is conveyed directly. in this sense you might not "see" the expressions in the case of the greys for that reason.
a person wearing a mask could run through a gamet of emotional feelings, but as an observer you would be unable to detect them, even though they are there "inside".

im still unsure about how to intrepret/extrapolate a motive in this scenario.
perhaps there was /will be an extinction level event, and the greys are "worker bees", it may be a necessary solution, and if they require that "spark" that we posess in order to function, if for whatever reason the manufacturing process can build a body, but not a being, then why not harvest that component from someone who has just had his/her biosystem fail, its going to get "wasted" anyway.
another reason why such harvesting should occur "downtime" its ecologically sound to recycle something that would otherwise be wasted.

and its a very large source of the conciousness component, hybrids may simply be an experiment in an attempt to isolate why the cloned bioforms lack the conciousness component, it would prob be more efficient to solve that problem, than it is to shunt downtime and harvest the component from us.

 

[CapnG]

Can you imagine, if there's an afterlife, being vacuumed back into a new body because your a-hole friend/family member misses you?

But if you're immortal then you're probably not going to be an asshole anymore because all the things that make people assholes tend to be the result of our limited interaction with this world over a single lifetime.

 

[mike]

But if you're immortal then you're probably not going to be an asshole anymore because all the things that make people assholes tend to be the result of our limited interaction with this world over a single lifetime.

that and your connection to the hive mind, which will mean "conversations" without the posibility of BS, much as i recently heard someone describe their conversations with god.

puts a new twist on the judgement day story too, perhaps its an incremental process, rather than all on one day, a "time in the future" the new "place" outside of linear time, where all the dead are raised up, that every life lost is restored.
mankind seems happy for a god to restore every last dead person back to life, i figure if he finds a way to do it himself......he'll do it

defeating death at some point in the future is all well and good, but imagine not only defeating death uptime, but being able to retrospectivly go downtime and defeat death to the ultimate degree.

that concept is basically the "wish" behind the judgement day story, the "last" day of linear time, heralds an age where every dead person is restored. the day we invent true travel, and step outside of linear time is our "last" day

 

[Schuyler]

Can you imagine, if there's an afterlife, being vacuumed back into a new body because your a-hole friend/family member misses you?

Kind of like a reverse-abortion. FORCED to live! Seems to me that if your consciousness survives you would think twice about lurching back into a physical body with all its manifold deficiencies. I'd want to make that decision myself. Of course, the Other Side may be more authoritarian than this one. I actually mean that seriously. There is no reason to suppose that another realm holds to our ideas of personal freedom and 'democracy.' It's possible you have less free will somewhere else thn you do here.

This container thing is not working well for me. First, it seems superfulous. Second, I'm looking forward to getting out of one, not back into one. I hope I can take my Glock 19 with me in case I need to pursuade a Grey to leave me the fuck alone.

 

[CapnG]

Seems to me that if your consciousness survives you would think twice about lurching back into a physical body with all its manifold deficiencies. I'd want to make that decision myself.

And if your conciousness only survives because it's in a physical body and would otherwise dissapate into the ether? What then? There is no "afterlife" in this theoretical equation; your options are either immortality or oblivion.

And a glock...? Really? They won't allow themselves to be caught on film, you really think they're gonna allow a loaded firearm near them (as if you'd even need one, they're built like twigs)?

 

[dusty]

once we have true travel, which takes us to a new dimension outside of linear time, we can be anywhere anywhen, our space and resources become almost limitless... we have the luxury of going "downtime" and saving the otherwise wasted souls/conciousness matrix's lost.

imagine you had the power and resources to do it, would you ?

if you had the power to go downtime and transfer the conciousness of a lost loved one to a new vessel, so you could resume your relationship, would you ?

Absolutely not.
Although I do agree that would be a very human thing to wish for.

If such a thing were ever possible, and if we as a species ever grow up enough spiritually to use such technologies responsibly.

Then I think that would be the end of the road for us with respect to our evolution. The whole idea of downloading one conciousness like a battery into another vehicle of whatever type, sounds way to dangerous to me.
Such power would go against nature and whatever laws of life there may be in my opinion.
Also I dont think this would make for a better world and with our track record I think we could become even more violent and greedy.

No even though I do feel like there probably is some kind of afterlife. The thought of tampering with the rulebook and bringing Human intent into the equation fills me with dread.

This is a great thread though chaps, I am really enjoying your thoughts.
This is all putting me in mind of the movie `Solaris.

Mark

 

[mike]

perhaps you simply get the choice, your very own "judgement" day.
if the reality is that when your natural bioform breaks down and ceases to function, your conciousness is lost, and the technology exists to rectify that, perhaps you are given the choice, i cant imagine that stuffing an unwilling persona into a new container, is to anyones advantage.

perhaps they offer the choice out of the same reverence some hold for war memorials... those soldiers who went before us, and died so that our future is the way it is.

if they truly conquer death and time, it will because of all the humans that went before them, without them they would not be, perhaps its a sense of gratitude to all the "soldiers" who walked life's tightrope without the safety net, and when they fell, one by one were lost through the lack of it.

if i found myself in the position of being able to cheat death like this, i would want to extend that choice back down time to all who went before, it seems only fair to offer everyone a chance the choice of salvation..........
once you inhabit a new dimension, that place outside linear time, then the view changes....from there all of us are shareholders in this technology

 

[Schuyler]

And if your conciousness only survives because it's in a physical body and would otherwise dissapate into the ether? What then? There is no "afterlife" in this theoretical equation; your options are either immortality or oblivion.

That is, indeed, a possibility, but it's not my working theory. I absolutely admit that it is possible there is nothing more. But I'm leaning the other direction, myself, and I don't think we need Greys to make it work. I kinda think they are in the way and messing with us. But I don't really know.

And a glock...? Really? They won't allow themselves to be caught on film, you really think they're gonna allow a loaded firearm near them (as if you'd even need one, they're built like twigs)?

Well, it is contradictory, but I meant it more in a mataphorical way to represent an attitude of resistance. They may have absolute power, but I'll still go down fighting. And if the soul of my Glock follows me up, it's ust a little icing on the cake.

 

[Schuyler]

if i found myself in the position of being able to cheat death like this, i would want to extend that choice back down time to all who went before, it seems only fair to offer everyone a chance the choice of salvation..........

THAT is a really interesting take on the idea of salvation, mike. I read somewhere long ago that the message of Jesus was really all about accepting his take on reality so that you eed not suffer through the continuing and debilitating cycle of reincarnation over and over again. The idea was that physical life is addictive and once you get into it you keep wanting to come back resulting in a cycle that is difficult to break. But if you want to move forward with your progress as a soul, you have to break the addiction to move on. If you look at a lot of Jesus's standard sayings in this light 'salvation' takes on a whole new meaning.

Beats me where I heard this. Understand I've been reading pretty heavily in his stuff for over forty years and sometimes stuff pops up that I have no idea where it came from. I just know it's not original with me.

 

[mike]

my take its its seems more or less like it seems.
the bioform /body breaks down and once it does its unable to maintain conciousness the ID.

we see it all the time, systems get old they wear out and no longer function according to spec.

thats death in a nutshell, the only solution would be to replace the parts that wear out, and we already do this with individual organs, sometimes replacing damaged components with new organic ones, sometimes artificial ones.

but if enough components fail at the same time, its often easier to replace the whole machine, than it is to repair individual systems failures.

if its possible to "backup" a brain like a hard disk, then the simplest solution, the logical workaround is to copy the contents to a new hard disk.

man wants to cheat death, hence storys like judgement day where everyone is restored, or heaven/paradise myths.
medical science is another reaction, and one that has a better chance of a solution, than the myths.

the twist in this idea that i like is the idea that having found a solution to the death problem and the waste that goes with it, we might also go back down time and provide that for which humanity has always yearned , to all who sought it, irrespective of their location in the linear time line of the species.

the great library of Alexandria....wasted. but i bet that if we had time travel no one would object to going back and taking a copy before it was lost forever....
but why just save the data in the books......why not save the conciousness of the people who wrote them....

those who find the idea of living in a grey container after the death of their original feral bioform are prob young.

by the time the original bioform fails , its not eating as much food as it did in its youth, and is due to the breakdown of the hormonal systems generally non sexual in nature, it is often physically feeble no longer having the sleek muscle mass of youth....

all in all the transition from old worn out orginal to biotailored new one , wont feel too strange.

if there is a workaround for the death problem i think its more likely to come from us, and our inovation, than any underlying universal principle that "saves" the conciousness on death.


baby steps, but none the less on the way..................

http://www.physorg.com/news131623779.html

and another
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...sts-develop-software-that-can-map-dreams.html

my we are busy.......

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sciencea...Mind-reading-device-is-now-a-possibility.html

 

[valiens]

But if you're immortal then you're probably not going to be an asshole anymore because all the things that make people assholes tend to be the result of our limited interaction with this world over a single lifetime.

Have you never seen a vampire movie?

 

[CapnG]

Have you never seen a vampire movie?

Yeah but vampires are parasites whose immortality is maintained at the expense of other lives and who, ultimately, can still die.

We're talking about having low-maintanence bodies which are infintely replacable, a TRUE immortality. When not being tormented day and night by the red thirst, I tend to imagine your viewpoint would shift to a more encompassing worldview with little interest in the small shit that tends to make us treat each other like crap on a regular basis.

 

[Gareth]

Not necessarily. If a vampire can acquire the necessary blood to satisfy their appetite there is no reason to kill anyone. Its why most real vampires work at blood banks.

 

[valiens]

Yeah but vampires are parasites whose immortality is maintained at the expense of other lives and who, ultimately, can still die.

We're talking about having low-maintanence bodies which are infintely replacable, a TRUE immortality. When not being tormented day and night by the red thirst, I tend to imagine your viewpoint would shift to a more encompassing worldview with little interest in the small shit that tends to make us treat each other like crap on a regular basis.

I disagree. I think as we are now, we'd likely grow arrogant and bored, which is a deadly combination when you have all the time in the world.

 

[Schuyler]

I disagree. I think as we are now, we'd likely grow arrogant and bored, which is a deadly combination when you have all the time in the world.

You know, it is a deadly combination as long as we are incarnated. I'm going to set aside the 'Resurrection through Technology" issue for the moment, fascinating though it is, to discuss the issue of being incarnated at all. I think that is a deadly combination right there.

The good part of incarnation is that we get to use our senses to interact with the physical world in ways that are impossible when disincarnated. That's the draw and the addiction. You don't get to only think about the smell and taste of an orange, you get to actually smell and taste it. You don't just get to think about getting laid, you can actually get laid.

The bad part about being incarnated is that your body is not a servant to you; it has a large part in determining what you will and can do. You have to eat. Cabbages don't cut it, so you learn to kill. We are omnivores, not herbivores. We have canine teeth. We are predators and that's just the way it is. This has resulted in a large brain case which can house a more complex thinking being. Our curiosity is part of our predatory nature.

But our bodies still exert control. They do so through hormones that try to force us to certain actions, like mating, for example. Have you ever experienced a true 'adrenaline dump'? This is when the 'fight or flight' instinct takes over. Oxygen is removed from your brain and sent to your extremities. You are going to kill or be killed or run away, period. When that happens you have to fight through the adrenaline with your brain to determine the best course of action. It is painfully difficult and if you are not prepared for it, your body takes complete control. Controlling this is a learned art. It gets easier once you learn to deal with it.

But the point is that you have limitations when in a body that govern how you act that are not present in a disincarnated state. If you no longer are compelled to eat. If you can't really exert harm in another organism any more. If money is no longer an issue (money representing survival), and if various hormones are no longer pushing at you, you have the opportunity to be much less dangerous person--maybe even civilized.

Yeah, I know all this begs the question of reality, but being incarnated is truly a double-edged sword.

 

[mike]

THAT is a really interesting take on the idea of salvation, mike. I read somewhere long ago that the message of Jesus was really all about accepting his take on reality so that you eed not suffer through the continuing and debilitating cycle of reincarnation over and over again. The idea was that physical life is addictive and once you get into it you keep wanting to come back resulting in a cycle that is difficult to break. But if you want to move forward with your progress as a soul, you have to break the addiction to move on. If you look at a lot of Jesus's standard sayings in this light 'salvation' takes on a whole new meaning.

Beats me where I heard this. Understand I've been reading pretty heavily in his stuff for over forty years and sometimes stuff pops up that I have no idea where it came from. I just know it's not original with me.

Hmmm, i didnt think the Tradition to which the jesus character is ascribed, subscribes to the idea of reincarnation, though on that note there are some interesting theological aspects.

in the reincarnation scenario you keep coming back "here" to the earthly plane....... until you learn enough to become enlightened, where apon you go to nirvana. a sort of heaven or paradise. until then you keep coming back here.....
jesus mentions during his walk in the desert meeting satan, who he describes as the prince of this world......

melding the two traditions suggests that this is hell, right here.....

but that aside i dont find the things said by this character incompatable with the idea that "life after death" is a technical possibility, but not a universal natural event.

perhaps what he meant was unless you can let go of your feral state, and the earth, you cant get into the "heavens".
and perhaps its not us from the future, perhaps it really is ET's with the technology to transfer conciousness.
perhaps feral conciousness in an animal species is so very very rare, that those "sparks" of ID are considered worth saving, in a vast and lonely universe
once freed of our animal feral bodys, and the lusts and fears that come with them we are easier to get along with, perhaps contact happens on an individual basis at death.

for me i could give up all the senses but one, that of mentation...thinking...i love it i even think about how i think... i could happily give up sex, food etc as long as i could continue to absorb data and process it

i would have no problem waking up in a grey container and being able to travel the heavens/universe in search of knowledge, free from my feral desires and constraints.

for me a hive mind is a powerful expression of love, and i'd have no problem being part of one.
for many though the idea of being a Hive mind is an unhappy one, the idea that you would have to "sacrifice" yourself, your mental privacy which once gone reveals your true self....
of course were back to the jesus ideas now....

who knows, perhaps there is life after death, and perhaps the greys have something to do with it.
it fits with the whole you have to evolve spiritually message to, not as a species, but as an individual perhaps, so that your persona is ready for the technological process and reality that awaits.
the idea that to get into the "heavens" you have to be willing to give up your earthly attachments
its funny because priests and nuns do just that, as an example

it would explain why they dont "contact" us in our "feral" state, whats the point it would be like trying to discuss a complex subject with a pre schooler, better to wait till they graduate for that.

 

[Schuyler]

Hmmm, i didnt think the Tradition to which the jesus character is ascribed, subscribes to the idea of reincarnation, though on that note there are some interesting theological aspects.

Well, I'm suggesting the 'tradition' is wrong and that his message has been subverted. If you get into aome of the Gnostic gospels and away from the mainstream, these ideas come out more strongly. It seems strange to me that a tradition that would not ascribe to reincarnation nevertheless makes it a central tenant of the faith that Jesus will come again. Originally Paul (St. Paul/Saul) meant RIGHT NOW in their lifetimes.

 

[mike]

i recall hearing the suposed ET reaction to the bombs dropped on japan, the premise being that form of destruction destroyed not only the body, but the soul.

perhaps all that refers to, is the sheer numbers of dead in that one instant, is more capacity than the system in place here is designed to process.

much as when a disaster swamps the local hospital's resources and people end up being lost because its just too busy to treat everyone